Easy Livin wrote:   " a defining moment when you know that your favourite band has reached its peak. That instant that you know from now on…it’s all down hill."

Painful poll, Easy... Using your above quote, I can only say that Yes peaked with CLOSE TO THE EDGE. Everything after was not new or different, merely re-arranged or of lower quality. I believe this was also the reason Bruford left. The challenge had been met and they peaked. Nothing from then forward would be "progressive" and in many ways he was right. Patrick Moraz' added some life for the RELAYER album, but it still "sounded" like Yes and what went before. I almost feel like a traitor for voting, however, I must say that most of Yes' lesser works were better than many bands best output.    

Yes has indeed gone down a road of decline after Bruford left, but as stated above, they had been making reasonably good music until Drama was released. I've listened to Tormato in a store, and it has some really good Tales like tracks, only shorter. Though on this cd, the amount of crap was pretty high already... I don't like GftO either though, but it must have been a minor setback since they did release Tormato which was pretty ok. Also, my sig should speak for itself...

I voted for the moment when Trevor Rabin but now I'm not so sure, I believe Yes jumped more than one shark and resurrected a couple of times.

The first one was really when Bruford left, they lost a musician and a drummer joined, Bill was an important part in the composition and arrangements, Alan was only a good drummer. Close to the Edge was a masterpiece created by a common effort, Tales was Jon's esoteric child.

Then Rick left and when any normal person thought Yes was going downhill, Moraz came and the band was reborn, Relayer is another masterpiece, more complex than any other album, but as good as the best one.

When Rick rejoined, I believed Yes was going up again, but the effect was the opposite, Going for the One is mostly a one track album and Tormato is mostly cheese (IMHO). The band jumped the shark again.

Jon and Rick left and The Buggles joined, again a breeze of fresh air  entered, IMO Drama is much better than the two previous albums.

And at last Yes jumped a whale when Trevor Rabin joined, cheesie Pop and mediocre albums, Union was as bad as the two previous albums and even when Rabin left, Yes never released a great album again, thanks God the band is great on stage still.

Iván

I agree that Close was their last essential work, but I believed they could have done something even better if they'd followed a different path...I hung on through the ups and downs of Tales, Relayer, Going, and Tormato, just wishing and hoping, until Drama killed the last of my optimism. Relative merits aside, nothing from then until ABWH rejoined should have been called Yes.

Patrick Moraz is to prog what Ted McGinley is to sitcoms

ivan_2068 wrote: I voted for the moment when Trevor Rabin but now I'm not so sure, I believe Yes jumped more than one shark and resurrected a couple of times.

I voted for the Rabin era, but just because I think that that group was just another group, not Yes. They should have changed the name. That "90whatever" (I won't ever be able to memorize this number. In fact, I can only remember the PIN number for my mobile phone a my mother's phone number ) is a good record. It's just isn't Yes.

Regards

Marcelo wrote: 90125 is to Yes what ATTW3 is to Genesis.

Have to disagree. Both great albums IMO..

I cant say when Yes jumped the shark. I think they stopped being the 'real' Yes after Tormato, but there were tracks on Drama that I did like (Does it really happen, Tempus Fugit, Machine Messiah) Trevor Horns voice was however..!!

You cant have true Yes without John Anderson and I guess without Steve Howe, although I dont actually have a problem with Trevor Rabins guitar playing like some people do, and I like I said I liked 90125. It was refreshing, and should perhaps be viwed as just a rock album, by a 'Super group' and not specifically as a Yes album.

I voted on the time Rabin joined the band, though I enjoy '90125' almost in its entirity. It's just that Rabin's writing, while stron, was not really essentially linked to the artistic heart of YES. He should have never assumed the "leader"/producer possition... well, Squire and Snderson allowed him to do so, therefore, YES started to become a mix of old prog with Rabin project. Howe's return gave way to some good stuff (most of KTA with Wakeman back, too; 60 % of Magnification; good symphonic shows), but the damage was already done.

Regards.

soundchaser wrote: When I first heard on Tommy Vance's Friday Rock Show that The Buggles had joined Yes, I recall feeling almost physically sick. My stomach actually lurched and I had to sit down. I was in my bedroom at the time in my pyjamas but not yet in bed. Well, on hearing that news I actually sat down on the bed. I was stunned, disappointed, upset. I kept wondering whether I had imagined the news, as if my mind was playing tricks on me. At school the next week, a couple of the older guys who were really into prog were inconsolable. There was also a lot of piss taking from other kids at school that weren't into prog. On a cross-country run, I was close to tears when one kid who always picked on me because of my tatste in music kept singing Video Killed The Radio Star in a very high-pitched voice. Despite all this, when Drama came out I was taken aback by how much it still sounded in keeping with the spirit of Yes and, more importantly, how good it was. I'd say that it's a better album than Tormato and while I couldn't have imagined this line-up working well live, I'd sday that no way did Yes jump the shark with Dramam!

This is my own story EXACTLY! (except for the pyjamas)

Marcelo wrote: 90125 is to Yes what ATTW3 is to Genesis.

I would put 90125 closer to Abacab with Tormato close to ATTW3 (I like ATTW3)

"Mum made me wear pyjamas."

 .  I remember Vance playing "Machine Massiah" and thinking "thank god". I was 13 yrs old and like you, had nearly choked on my tongue at the news. The piss-takers didn't let the high quality prog nature of Drama deter them from pursuing their calling, however. They neither liked nor understood it anyway.

It all unravelled with Tormato.The greatness just came to an end.Before this Yes gave us years of unsurpassed brilliance.From the groundbreaking Yes Album to Going For the One they delivered.For me Close to the edge is the greatest piece of rock music ever written and conceived.Relayer and Going for the one were great and more recently Magnification was nearly a great Yes album.

Hey Shrinking Violet how are you?

ShrinkingViolet wrote: same here i cannot call the rabin era yes..its american yes not the real yes .  i agree with fragile . the classic line up has retuned yey!!! long live Yes

Saw it, listened to it live--loved it (never stopped, though) but to call Rabin's (????) era not Yes--I would not go that far. Take it into retrospective--32 years now!!! And this is since their breakout--before they warmed both for Who and....Cream at Royal Albert Hall. One bound to begin to experiment and push the envelope one way or another!!! Not all went well but Trevor is still an excellent guitar master and Yes just toyed with hard riffs--and it wasn't that bad. In the end, at their 30th Anniversary tour they still played Rhythm Of Love and it was pandemoinum when Mr. Anderson stepped into arena while singing--I would know--I was there. I just simply LOVE them, although Turn Of The Century still makes my eyes wet

ShrinkingViolet wrote: same here i cannot call the rabin era yes..its american yes not the real yes .  i agree with fragile . the classic line up has retuned yey!!! long live Yes

ARGH  didn't we already do this? Yes has been many things but never American...it's totally unfair and shortsighted to use "American" as shorthand for 'trendy, over-produced pop influence'? Great Britain and Europe in general has always been in the forefront of re-packaging the authentic original US influences in slick, chart-friendly ways; the blues, R&B, soul, rock and roll, punk, grunge (remeber Bush?), house music (okay, Chicago and Detroit House had a lot of German Kraftwerk influence, but they still did house well before Brit DJs caught up and pretended they invented it). Isn't it bad enough that so many people denounce and demean Americans for variously valid reasons, and now we have to go and rewrite history to make up new ones?

OK, I've calmed down now

James Lee wrote: ShrinkingViolet wrote: same here i cannot call the rabin era yes..its american yes not the real yes .  i agree with fragile . the classic line up has retuned yey!!! long live Yes ARGH  didn't we already do this? Yes has been many things but never American...it's totally unfair and shortsighted to use "American" as shorthand for 'trendy, over-produced pop influence'? Great Britain and Europe in general has always been in the forefront of re-packaging the authentic original US influences in slick, chart-friendly ways; the blues, R&B, soul, rock and roll, punk, grunge (remeber Bush?), house music (okay, Chicago and Detroit House had a lot of German Kraftwerk influence, but they still did house well before Brit DJs caught up and pretended they invented it). Isn't it bad enough that so many people denounce and demean Americans for variously valid reasons, and now we have to go and rewrite history to make up new ones? OK, I've calmed down now

With greates respect and love to American culture--but since when Madrigal became American?

Fragile wrote: and stop being so sensitive about being American

I would suggest to be SENSITIVE to other people's sensitivities. Prog, meanwhile, belongs to nobody!!! It belongs to people, who love it and understand it. Yes, it's true that majority of the greatest prog was created in GB but if one wants to know how much everyone else contributed--listen to Pavlov's Dog, the band from St.Louis. Or, in the end to Steve Hackett's Frozen Statues from To Watch The Storms--can not get any bluzier and Miles Davies (ier)  than that!!!

Fragile wrote: and Russiandude it makes my eyes water as well the song just  obliterates your emotions.

One of their masterpieces and Steve's guitar and Jon's voice!!!! But, I think the reason U do not like Rabin's period and call it American could be easily put in simple words--what Trevor does there, he plays riffs (Waiting For The Night from 90125, 12590, 12905 etc --never remembered) which is by definition derivative of bluez thinking--and what a great riffs. Creative people should react to the change--and Rabin's time was just that!!! They never compromised on musicmanship which was as usual--awesome!!! Yet, with Fragile being my favorite (not U--album) I still love how they went about it!! Enough to say--I listen to "Talk" in my car constantly!!!!

Am I being too sensitive? The term 'american' was used to imply something inauthentic and shallow and therefore less worthy, so I challenged it. I'd be willing to bet I'd get slammed if used the term 'scottish' to mean that something was humorless, intolerant, and rustic in the best Calvinist tradition.

I have no problem criticizing the negative impact of American culture around the world- I often do, and wrongly get branded unpatriotic. If you wanted to discuss U2's Americanization during the Joshua Tree period, or even make a claim about the loss of british folk influence over the course of Jethro Tull's work, you'd have a good point...but the commercialization of Yes and progressive music in general is just not a good example. Yes never really had any elements of national identity in their sound to lose- it's not like Jon Anderson lost his accent or they stopped playing british-sounding melodies (a la Caravan). They played shorter, less complicated songs with more commercial potential, and more trendy 80s production techniques.

It's simply mental laziness, possibly coupled with smug cultural snobbery, to call this trend 'american'. It's one of those labels that are widely used but never actually substantiated; if anyone wants to assert that it was an American musical influence that 'corrupted' Yes (or Genesis, etc.) in the late 70s/ early 80s, form a reasonable argument instead of just throwing the term around, and I'll stop being so sensitive.

I'm planning on seeing Yes live at Red Rocks in exactly a month, thanks for asking

James Lee wrote: Am I being too sensitive? The term 'american' was used to imply something inauthentic and shallow and therefore less worthy, so I challenged it. I'd be willing to bet I'd get slammed if used the term 'scottish' to mean that something was humorless, intolerant, and rustic in the best Calvinist tradition.

No James, you are not being to sensitive. ShrinkingViolet crossed the line - Period, end of discussion! Shame on Fragile for supporting him - you're both acting like you're 13 yrs old. Never use a label - it's classless to do so and always makes someone angry. If your intention was to make someone angry, over a personal preference, you might want to seriously consider getting medical/psyschological attention (this is not meant as a knock, but rather sincere concern). And, come on, saying that the Isles own Prog is like saying "it's my ball so I make-up the rules". Give your heads a shake and grow up. Start a thread with that arguement instead, if you like.

We get it - you don't like Yes featuring Rabin - fine. You probably don't like Genesis without Gabriel and Hacket. Great. Your definition of good prog is different/narrower than that of others, terrific. It's great music IMHO. The truth of the matter is that in the end you have simply have less music to love.

Was it this sort of crap that eventually led to Peter leaving? (What exactly happened?) I'm new, but looking at some of the old posts it appears that it must of escalated way beyond this...but it, too, probably started with what someone thought was an innocent comment...

P.s. I've seen Yes on three different occaisions (Edge, Drama, 90125) - does this somehow make my opinion more valid?

Violet, I think the point of the contention was your classifying the Rabin ear Yes as "American." I must admit that I was pissed at your statement as well. JFYI, Rabin is from South Africa. Saying that it was pop or commercial is valid, however, America is not the only county where commercial music is played or encouraged. The 80's synth-pop came right out of the UK... I think.

Either way, no harm done, just try not to generalize.

You know something you north america boys and I include canada in this you seem pretty agitated about rabin making an arse of Yes.If you want arena eighties bands then you had loads of  of them.As for you Danbo SV is tellling you as she see it .I think as a 49 year old that a young prog lover tells you as she hears it and feels it.Who are you guys to  tell her she is crossing the line or otherwise.For me the Rabin days were nonesense.I believe my peruvian soul brother will qualify this.Back to SV you tell them what you think.

I don't want to express my opinion about 90125 and Big Generator because it's well known, it's true that Trevor Rabin is from South Africa but the 90125 lineup is known as YES WEST and it's based in USA.

The Yes name was now owned by the 90125 line-up (known colloquially as YesWest and based in the USA), but without Anderson, who had again defected and formed Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe (known as YesEast and based in Britain). From: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Yes_band - http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Yes_(band )

So it's not unusual to call the Rabin lineup as American Yes, not because of the quality of the music but because the band was based in USA.

Danbo wrote:

Violet, I think the point of the contention was your classifying the Rabin ear Yes as "American." I must admit that I was pissed at your statement as well. JFYI, Rabin is from South Africa. Saying that it was pop or commercial is valid, however, America is not the only county where commercial music is played or encouraged. The 80's synth-pop came right out of the UK... I think.

I understand your point Danbo, calling the Rabin lineup American Yes only because they were based in USA in comparison with ABWH (YESEAST) that was based in UK is ok.

But to use the term American Yes to identfy the pop tendencies of Yes is wrong.

There are lots of great USA bands that are in the level of the best British bands like Kansas, Pavlov's Dog, Grand Funk Railroad, The Doors, Dream Theater, Glass Hammer, Frank Zappa and The Mothers of Invention, California Guitar Trio and 100 more.

Of course there is POP in USA, but there's also POP in UK, Italy, and even Ukraine.

Arbiter wrote:

No James, you are not being to sensitive. ShrinkingViolet crossed the line - Period, end of discussion! Shame on Fragile for supporting him - you're both acting like you're 13 yrs old. Never use a label - it's classless to do so and always makes someone angry.

Plese Arbiter, don't take things so seriously, Shrinking Violet only posted her opinion, she may be right or wrong but she's entitled to her opinion.

I can't disagree more with your opinions about Genesis and Yes, but I accept them because you're entitled to think Invisible Touch and Big Generator are great albums.

When I don't agree I simply post my opinion and I'm ready for a healthy discussion, at the end we're here to talk about the music we love but mostly to have fun and enjoy a discussion.

Lets agree with the right to disagree.

Iván

Wow.. you guys do tend to get a little sensitive every once in awhile.  Heck, I think Yes are a little American... afterall most of them all live here now.. and in the most of American locations... Jon Anderson lives not far from LA and even teaches sometimes in an American Indian reservation school... and he's married to some american "Belinda Carlisle" look-alike... 

However, I agree that using the term "American" to denote a more poppy influence, is very inaccurate.  Afterall, Britain may be the home of prog.. but it can boast just as many pop acts as we can...Look at Mr Fripp's wife... Toyota... I mean Toyah Wilcox.. Unfortunately tho, only we produced the Scissor Sisters....(Darn!!)  

Hmm, what's that emotional state between feeling slightly ornery but really not caring too much? Ennui maybe? That's where I'm at. If I wasn't a chronic insomniac without a current writing project, I wouldn't spend so much time on this sort of thing (I can just imagine some of you rushing to send me sleeping pills to get me to shut the heck up )

Fragile wrote: You know something you north america boys and I include canada in this you seem pretty agitated about rabin making an arse of Yes. You got that impression from me? I don't care about that aspect at all. Yes pretty much made arses of themselves, didn't they? It's not like the rest of the band was fighting Rabin every step of the way. Howe especially had some pretty foolish quotes over the years... If you want arena eighties bands then you had loads of  of them. Fair enough. As for you Danbo SV is tellling you as she see it .I think as a 49 year old that a young prog lover tells you as she hears it and feels it. You're 49? I'd assumed you were much younger. Not that it makes any difference- I'm just a little surprised. Who are you guys to  tell her she is crossing the line or otherwise. I guess they're expressing their opinion, just as she is. Anyone can comment on anything, right or wrong or off topic or whatever. If and when I say something either wrong or just plain stupid, it's open season- I accept that, and celebrate our forum's open situation. For me the Rabin days were nonesense. I owned 90125 back when it first came out, lost it somewhere along the line since then, and am in no hurry to get it back. There's so much other music out there I want to explore that I don't really have the time or interest to investigate Yes' later work. You may be right about Rabin's contributions; others disagree, and I just don't care. I learned a long time ago that it's extremely unlikely to love everything a band does, and for me they could never top "Close to the Edge" or "Starship Troopers" or "America". It's a specific point in time as well as a specific band that just couldn't exist anymore. I don't blame them, or hate Rabin, or long for the good old days. I'll bet they can still put on a good show. I believe my peruvian soul brother will qualify this.Back to SV you tell them what you think. BTW: Thanks Ivan (and threefates), I didn't know about the YesWest thing- I think it's perfectly acceptable to talk about 'American Yes' when the band is based in LA. I don't think that's what SV meant, but if it is then I apologize completely if I seemed to come down hard on you.

Most importantly, to Shrinking Violet: keep posting, keep saying anything you want to say. I'm not here to browbeat or intimidate anyone; the last thing I want to do is stifle anyone's expression.

James Lee wrote: Most importantly, to Shrinking Violet: keep posting, keep saying anything you want to say. I'm not here to browbeat or intimidate anyone; the last thing I want to do is stifle anyone's expression.

I totally agree...please, let's move on.

49?  Who said that?

Drop a dog year, then we'll talk.

Post away....

Mmmh I'll have to stop posting when I'm exceedingly drunk on saturday nights!But to retort as one must.James why did you think I was younger I would have assumed through some of our little sorties you could tell I've been into prog from it's outset and Danbo if you wish to speak  I'm right here here in good old Scotland.

                             have fun Gents.

Fragile wrote: Mmmh I'll have to stop posting when I'm exceedingly drunk on saturday nights!

Don't do that Fragile, you can always edit them later when you read what you wrote! Keep the Irn Bru handy.

Easy livin Irn bru! Is that the stuff that's made from girders?

That's the stuff, how would we survive Sunday mornings without it!

Some of the recent Irn Bru ads on TV have been excellent. Did you read about the one with the family singing together where the wife/mother sings at the end ".. and I love Irn Bru too, even though I used to be a man"!

The advertising standards office told them not to show it again as it may upset transvestites!

Just in ,yes, I know it's late ,but ,I only go out out sat/sun with my mates and I'm on two weeks hols as of tuesday.The point of posting seriously drunk is indeed very precarious and on this ocassion I will pass, although quite drunk still capable of typing but as yet haven't seen that ad.Goodnight from Hamilton,Scotland.

Glad to see some peace has broken out boys , until the next time you agree to disagree. Yes Rules '69-'79

Fragile wrote: ..have just watched Robin of Sherwood my fave tv series from anytime!What with great storylines and acting and the truly wonderful music from Clannad.

Completely off topic I know, but I though the Michael Praed RoS episodes were excellent. The series "Jumped the shark" when Jason Connery took over the roll, he was wooden and wet!

This is my fave tv series, i have the Micheal Praed series on dvd and I love it to pieces. Wonderful, each time i watch, when i hear the music I get shivers. The scenery and acting is fantastic Connery could never replace Praed, Robin of Loxley. Magic. Pure excellence. wow.

Interesting(?)  fact - the 1960's Robin Hood show had a theme tune that went 'Robin Hood, Robin Hood, riding through the glen....' *

It was sung by a guy called Dick James.

Who took the money he made from the song and started Dick James Music (DJM)

He signed Lennon/McCartney (in 1962) as a subsidiary (Northern Songs) and made millions! Then made another fortune with Elton John.

Jammy bugger!

*Similar to 'Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore....'

It has always been my opinion that 90125 onwards through the rabin era was not Yes music. The only resemblance to Yes was the great man's voice!They targeted commercialism via their Rabin pop/rock arena like outpourings.

Yes has gone through a series of changes, some successfull others less so. I don't think they have ever jumped the shark though. I think Danbo put it best, "their worst output is another groups crowning achievement" or words to that effect. 

I think the groups low points were:

Tormato: A let down after Going for the one

Drama: They were looking for a new direction, unfortunately, this wasn't it.

Union: The fact that they actually toured behind this is clear evidence they were only in it for the money. 

Actually, I think Talk was a pretty good album. True it's a departure from the traditional Yes aesthetic but I don't think that's a bad thing either. You've got to challenge yourself. The worse I could say about talk is the production values...a bit antiseptic.

Whicj Yes albums do you have?