U.S. Jazz Fusion: 1970
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134426
Printed Date: February 21 2025 at 02:31
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Topic: U.S. Jazz Fusion: 1970
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Subject: U.S. Jazz Fusion: 1970
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 02:39
 1970: David Axelrod - Pride - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YipIAI3AkXM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YipIAI3AkXM 1970: David Axelrod - Earth Rot - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mvB8oCHGJDISiFVO6tK2Vfd9dZMQDGnY0" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mvB8oCHGJDISiFVO6tK2Vfd9dZMQDGnY0 1970: Blood, Sweat & Tears - Blood, Sweat & Tears 3 - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lEaT1Phk6jrKlKG7qETvJA6ndsJh8uOr0" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lEaT1Phk6jrKlKG7qETvJA6ndsJh8uOr0 1970: Chicago - Chicago II - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ndk90AgovYl4XkFqy-BwVKQnIAgLRlRos" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ndk90AgovYl4XkFqy-BwVKQnIAgLRlRos  1970: Alice Coltrane - Ptah, The El Daoud - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l_qZz8lc1Jj3lhNaAe0DnTSU2anhesRsg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l_qZz8lc1Jj3lhNaAe0DnTSU2anhesRsg 1970: Larry Coryell - Spaces - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mtchVvlvkN-u3dU-Unh0NUllJGYlcBtrI" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mtchVvlvkN-u3dU-Unh0NUllJGYlcBtrI  1970: Miles Davis - Bitches Brew - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1RRNXldMeRH9BTnQmLcBEPypc3M6e9yJ" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1RRNXldMeRH9BTnQmLcBEPypc3M6e9yJ 1970: Dreams - Dreams - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjvQWcSg4DEKaoFYnzplDG8KY7yMFBbe7" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjvQWcSg4DEKaoFYnzplDG8KY7yMFBbe7 1970: George Duke - Save the Country - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lchcH-y7MgDdulNJgSatoSsTNmRwACoKU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lchcH-y7MgDdulNJgSatoSsTNmRwACoKU 1970: Herbie Hancock - Jammin' with Herbie - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKLPE6Ph1xZpWv5cenzai12TMPvT9vJe4" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKLPE6Ph1xZpWv5cenzai12TMPvT9vJe4 1970: Mandrill - Mandrill - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3oteE_EgAtWpJQhO6e2RXiSPg0BTwopc" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3oteE_EgAtWpJQhO6e2RXiSPg0BTwopc 1970: Herbie Mann - Stone Flute - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwY75gziVIQ" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwY75gziVIQ 1970: Buddy Miles - Them Changes - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mhFcnnBHZtTNSgLMRq-eyIB1zQKvFu8Y8" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mhFcnnBHZtTNSgLMRq-eyIB1zQKvFu8Y8 1970: Buddy Miles - We Got to Live Together - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jZ9GH4aZLk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jZ9GH4aZLk 1970: Jean-Luc Ponty - King Kong: Jean-Luc Ponty Plays the Music of Frank Zappa - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lhWbtry_0VkRJ-XdCUDoYGvq1VBk_8nZU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lhWbtry_0VkRJ-XdCUDoYGvq1VBk_8nZU  1970: Santana - Abraxas - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nvcNfuoyMcB8NSLZ4TI7pjse86D-8A7SU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nvcNfuoyMcB8NSLZ4TI7pjse86D-8A7SU 1970: Pharoah Sanders - Deaf Dumb Blind - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DIRBZ6uEKg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DIRBZ6uEKg 1970: Wayne Shorter - Moto Grosso Feio - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lH4sVHlq3KWVbzArT8Gj-zs10KpFlbIi4" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lH4sVHlq3KWVbzArT8Gj-zs10KpFlbIi4 1970: The Stark Reality - Discovers Hoagy Carmichael's Music Shop - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgFwWG_i8zk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgFwWG_i8zk 1970: Leon Thomas - The Leon Thomas Album - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kQx3nJpc9ZiKZcLdWJh4x61HSJe12RJGU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kQx3nJpc9ZiKZcLdWJh4x61HSJe12RJGU 1970: Tony Williams Lifetime - Ego - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nVXs1ztWhsPGjreqOvwp6nV7lgwUcE8ws" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nVXs1ztWhsPGjreqOvwp6nV7lgwUcE8ws 1970: Tony Williams Lifetime - Turn It Over - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDjz9BzJ4cM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDjz9BzJ4cM 1970: Frank Zappa & the Mothers of Invention - Burnt Weeny Sandwich - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mj8TF4BRgSvcda9_dgt7v6-yPUhVppl48" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mj8TF4BRgSvcda9_dgt7v6-yPUhVppl48 1970: Frank Zappa & the Mothers of Invention - Weasels Ripped My Flesh - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mJg70B_PUl0rXiTFrXGgcm2cWob8SpOR8" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mJg70B_PUl0rXiTFrXGgcm2cWob8SpOR8 1970: Frank Zappa - Chunga's Revenge - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mAjUzWHE7FuILIi3ufMAQDH1-GM4eCg9g" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mAjUzWHE7FuILIi3ufMAQDH1-GM4eCg9g |
Replies:
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 03:36
|
I have a clear top three: Miles Davis - Bitches Brew Alice Coltrane - Ptah, The El Daoud (not fusion, but I'm glad it's included) Wayne Shorter - Moto Grosso Feio I like Abraxas, Turn it Over, Earth Rot, Spaces, Burnt Weeny Sandwich as well. Never even heard of the Herbie Hancock, even though I consider myself quite the fanboy. (of course) you skipped my favorite Herbie Mann-album. His five star, actual-jazzfusion masterwork. The very beautiful: Stone Flute -other favorites that is some kind of US Jazz Fusion: Yusef Lateef - The Diverse Yusef Lateef The Lloyd McNeill Quartet - Washington Suite William S. Fischer - Circles Joe Farrell Quartet - Joe Farrell Quartet Joe Henderson - Power to the People The Fourth Way - The Sun and Moon Have Come Together Jeremy Steig - Energy + I prefer Pharoah Sanders - Jewels of Thought (but one has to be able to enjoy some Afro American yodeling) |
Posted By: Octopus II
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 03:45
|
Chicago - Chicago II Santana - Abraxas Blood, Sweat & Tears - Blood, Sweat & Tears 3 |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 05:25
No problem. I just added Herbie Mann's Stone Flute album to the poll retroactively, in place of Barry Miles.
 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 06:53
| Chicago II |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 07:17
|
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 07:32
|
^I still haven't voted, as I don't know which among my by now four favorites to give it to. Nothing comes close to Bitches Brew* in regards to historical importance (and I love it to death), but an album such as Stone Flute may still be more of a personal favorite. *it's like the In the Court of the Crimson King, Black Sabbath or Autobahn of Jazz Rock Fusion - and then some. |
Posted By: Rick1
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 07:39
| Alice Coltrane for today. Weasels and Burnt Weeny were not conceived as albums as such - Zappa hastily assembled various out-takes and live recordings following the dissolution of the original Mothers. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 07:50
|
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 08:34
|
Bitches Brew ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 09:06
|
1. Santana - Abraxas 2. Chicago - Chicago II 3. Buddy Miles - Them Changes 4. Mandrill - Mandrill
|
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 09:48
| Might just as well be Chicago v Santana as far as I'm concerned. (I voted Chicago) |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 10:31
Pretty much of the same opinion. Both bands were firing on all cylinders at this stage of their career. Ultimately, Chicago is my choice too. Bitches Brew is certainly a historically important album. However, I never got on with it as well as other Miles Davis albums during this period such as Jack Johnson and In a Silent Way. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 10:32
|
Definitely, Bitches Brew, while Abraxas is quite as sure Latin Rock in my book. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 10:49
Both Discogs and Wikipedia have Jazz Fusion, as well as Latin Rock, Psychedelic Rock and Blues Rock for style / genre listed for Abraxas. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but obviously someone believes there is enough Jazz Fusion in Abraxas to list it under style / genre of music. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 10:54
 ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 13:51
| Stone Flute was one of my favourite album recommendations that I have had in my time at PA and get my vote. I also love Alice Coltrane's Ptah, The El Daoud, David Axelrod's Earth Rot, Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, and Santana's Abraxas. And I like the Zappa albums. I like it when I see several albums I like enough in a poll to want to mention. Very nice poll. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 13:58
Anyway, I find the question quite relevant, as it may be seen as a kind of colonialism or suppression of ethnic minority, for not to talk about possible lack of respect for the intensions of the artist - even all that may also be seen as some unusual considerations.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 15:19
Ok.... never thought to see that listed as a possible reason.... |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 11 2025 at 22:57
|
^^That's only the second dumbest comment I've seen here in 2025. There should be more than enough actual supression to be concerned about - so there's really no need to make that sh*t up. If you do not notice the Jazz Fusion element on Abraxas as soon as the album starts with "Singing Winds, Crying Beasts", I don't know what to tell you. It's not like Fusion typically dominates the album, but it's present here and there as a natural part of the whole. That's why multiple tags works better at describing both artists and albums, than just one genre per full discography. You know that an album (or even a song) can represent more than one genre at once right? Or maybe you don't, as I remember you had a hard time understanding that Black Sabbath could be Hard Rock and Heavy Metal simultaneously. -A couple of albums later Santana went all in an made the full blown Jazz Fusion/Jazz-Rock-masterpiece Caravanserai. Of course their Latin Rock is still present, but that's the thing with Jazz Fusion. It can be fused with practically any kind of musical style - or tradition. |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 12 2025 at 01:12
Santana also made an album with perhaps the greatest Jazz Fusion guitarist ( certainly the most important in my opinion), John McLaughlin, Love Devotion Surrender. So Carlos Santana has definitely at times had his feet in the Jazz Fusion pool. |
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: February 12 2025 at 07:01
|
Chicago ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 12 2025 at 07:24
|
Good to know that you're such a big theoretical authority, Saperlipopette!, as I haven't noticed it before. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 12 2025 at 07:45
|
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 13 2025 at 09:39
Okay, I can understand that one can get annoyed, but I'd surely prefer you not to be that rude and patronizing. Regarding the ethnical question and respecting the intentions of an artist, well, I find them definitely worthy consideration. Then, I of course agree about the principal correctness of multiclassifying an album, but in the case of Abraxas and as I see it, it's quite obviously mostly a Latin Rock album, and I just don't find it appropriate to include in this poll.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: February 13 2025 at 09:45
| Miles |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 13 2025 at 10:34
David, the fact that the reason you listed for the various tags applied to the Abraxas album was due possibly to "colonialism" or "suppression" of ethnic minorities is just frankly a big eye roller. I doubt anyone who tagged these albums thought about it in those terms. You see this today where people are labelled racist, misogynist, transphobic, Nazi, etc, etc so easily because of disagreement, not because of any malice intended. Frankly, it's getting to the point that no one pays attention when these accusations are thrown around and indeed you are seeing pushback. Michael Shrieve, the drummer for Santana's first seven albums has stated in interviews that he was not a Latin percussionist and what he brought to Santana was rooted more in jazz and rhythm and blues. As for the tags for Abraxas, I think most would think of the album as being mostly a Latin Rock album, that also contains a mixture of Jazz Fusion, Psychedelic Rock and Blues Rock. I don't think applying these tags is in anyway trying to denigrate Carlos Santana. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: February 13 2025 at 11:42
|
I do like Weasels Ripped My Flesh and King Kong a lot, but it's Bitches Brew for me. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: February 13 2025 at 11:46
| 'Bitches Brew' out of all these |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 13 2025 at 19:56
|
This poll is about favorites, right? My favorite is an incredible album of music that borders on not being Jazz-Rock Fusion but qualifies purely on the fact that in 1970 the newly-forming sub-genre was still very undefined: King Kong: Jean-Luc Ponty Plays the Music of Frank Zappa by far the best album of the lot; Frank's composition, orchestration, PRODUCTION, and vehicle for Jean-Luc is impeccable on so many levels. The music on TEO MACERO's Bitches Brew is hardly enjoyable . . . on any level! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 14 2025 at 12:31
What I meant was that referring to Abraxas only in entire another context than Latin Rock, like for instance this poll only consider it to be Jazz Fusion, could be seen as a kind of colonialism or suppression of ethnic (Latin American) minority. Sorry for not being sufficiently clear about that. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 14 2025 at 13:18
↕
With yet another inane take, no less outrageous than the one that annoyed me, you're not making it easy for me. You come across as if you have no understanding of the seriousness or meaning of either colonialism or suppression of ethnic minorities. And I think you should be careful in using such loaded language until you do. Some other albums in the poll have less elements of Jazz Fusion than Abraxas: Ptah, The El Daoud, Deaf Dumb Blind and of course the 1961 album Jammin' with Herbie. I don't think that is because of racism towards African Americans or anything extreme like that. I think it's due to lack of knowledge or plain carelessness. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: February 14 2025 at 15:23
| Bitches Brew > Ptah, King Kong, Abraxas |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 15 2025 at 15:35
Well, you seem to have very specific understanding of those terms, while I guess that I've seen them used in more various ways. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 15 2025 at 17:47
No. Only those who look for racism, misogyny, cultural appropriation, etc, around every corner would see that. I'm not into the grievance game and refuse to play. Someone saw Abraxas as a Jazz Fusion album, nothing more. If you want to say it's mislabeled, fine. But, it's nothing more than that. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 15 2025 at 23:43
|
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 16 2025 at 01:30
But I reckon that I've also seen a lot of that. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 17 2025 at 09:40
Tjah, it surely didn't feel good to me seeing Abraxas completely disregarded as a Latin Rock album, and why not tell about it - even I admit that I could have done it in a better way. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 17 2025 at 13:41
| ^Latin Rock isn't completely eradicated from Abraxas because it’s one of the options in a poll that focuses on something else. That’s an absurd take as things like this happen all the time. And you do it yourself. It's included in a Jazz Fusion context because someone hears that specific quality in the music. Not because there’s nothing else to be found. Every single artist - or rather album are treated equally here, regardless of its high or low «fusion-percentage». The Experimental / Avant Rock of Weasels Ripped My Flesh isn’t gone, Ptah, The El Daoud is no less Spiritual Jazz, Post Bop or whatever… |
Posted By: meAsoi
Date Posted: February 18 2025 at 20:48
| Abraxas. Like a musical smoothie, it's an ultimate world-fusion masterpiece! It is a celebration of global musical heritage that invites listeners on a journey through diverse sounds and rhythms; indeed, a sophisticated blend of Latin rhythms, jazz, rock, and elements of African musical tradition into one refreshing drink of sound. While embracing spiritual themes, each track is a passport to a different cultural destination—just like how its fantastical cover painting by Abdul Mati Klarwein visually transports you to new worlds! |