Is krautrock a valid genre or more an umbrella term for all kinds of sounds coming from bands from West Germany in the 70s? It has both the eclectic style of Can, the electronic hymn of Kraftwerk, the motorik beat in Neu! and La Dusseldorf, the experimental nature of Harmonia and Faust, the guitar based Guru Guru and so on.

With everything from meditative sitars [like Yath Sidhra ] to Cluster to Ammon Duu; isn't this too vast an umbrella term?

To begin with, I think that it has been wisely of PA to distinguish between Krautrock and Progressive Electronic.

The genre originates from Germany, but not all German bands are listed as Krautrock (German bands feature also under Progressive Electronic - including Kraftwerk, Symphonic - e.g. Grobschnitt, , Jazz Fusion - e.g. Embryo, Psychedelic/Space - e.g. Eloy etc.). Krautrock is meant to refer to a distinctive musical style (even though still somewhat eclectic), and there are also non-German bands listed under Krautrock, most of them from more recent times.

                   

Tangerine Dream still have krautrock attached to as a label in some places, AllMusic being a notable one though it might only apply to a minor subset of their work overall [I have only heard like one album from them.

Trivumvirat I heard recently though I their sound was closer to symphonic prog as someone mentioned. I think I had listened to 'Mediterranean Tales' and found it decent, though not superlative.

Reminds me of a certain genre that broke open in UK with The Pistols and Clash in 1977. :p In fact, one of La Dusseldorf's [ I can't remember which exactly at the moment] songs had the exact same vibe as one would later come to associate with punk though these folks could play their stuff.

I appreciate all the detail you give. I hope you forgive me some pedantry...

Edgar Froese is from East Prussia (about as far away from Cologne as you could be in Germany before WWII) and grew up in Berlin. I don't think he ever lived in Cologne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Froese" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Froese

Can were from Cologne (I haven't researched the individual members), and Kraftwerk were from Düsseldorf, around the corner.

The second Can singer's name by the way was Damo Suzuki.

What you say about not having to be proficient as instrumentalist and singer is quite true, although there were different kinds of people around. Amon Düül started off making noise spontaneously, and then some got properly into music and improved their skills, and actually became frustrated with the limited ability and ambition of others, so they split up into Amon Düül, focusing on cuommunity life and politics rather than music, having a few notoriously bad albums released, and Amon Düül II, who were quite pedestrian musically in the beginning (clearly to make out on Phallus Dei) but improved. Chris Karrer, John Weinzierl and Peter Leopold in particular became quite good musicians. 

Can had two members who had studied with Stockhausen (ah, I realise you kind of wrote that allready), and Jaki Liebezeit was an accomplished jazz drummer on the other hand. Embryo had experienced and skilled musicians as well. Stockhausen was a disruptor and innovator, so it makes some sense that his students moved away even from what Stockhausen did. Both Malcolm and Damo were clearly special. Though not highly trained traditional singers, they could bring something very personal and unique to the music, and clearly had artistic ambition. Their "naivity" was quite different from the Amon Düül members that ADII left behind.

 

Edgar Froese is from East Prussia (about as far away from Cologne as you could be in Germany before WWII) and grew up in Berlin. I don't think he ever lived in Cologne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Froese" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Froese

Can were from Cologne (I haven't researched the individual members), and Kraftwerk were from Düsseldorf,

I stand corrected! Edgar Froese is not from Cologne and I was certainly a bit mixed up on that 😆   Cologne was in fact a place of development in Electronic Music. Several people were experimenting there....including Stockhausen.

Hi,

I think it is important to state that this is not just a rock music thing ... especially as it happened in more than one place in Germany. Similar ideas and events were taking place, also in theater, film, literature and other places ... but we forget one important line by Edgar Froese in one of the Krock specials out there ... that there was no past, and the presence was not exactly academic, though it still had many folks that were a part of the previous era and regime (there were no other teachers!!!), which allowed for what we would consider "anarchy" to take place until it gets under "control" by the media, for example.

The idea of working with folks that had no musical training, would be more likely to happen in a situation where there was no academia at all, and the only thing that was happening was a bunch of folks that wanted to do this and that, and they DID IT. The academic mode was not an issue, as it was non-existent for a few years, until the educational systems were developed.

I find it weird that we think of these things on rock music, as mentioned in various posts, and yet we do not notice that there is no way that another art is not affected at all ... it was massive in film, though it is never mentioned, and also that a couple of film makers were also helpful in making sure they made small films of a lot of these events ... and both Herzog and Wenders were there, though we are not sure that Fassbinder was exactly a part of it, though his work featured a lot of free form all around, which was one of the important things in a lot of the early Krock ... with so many improvisations at the front ... without a musically trained person, what else do you have? We must see that, and to think there is nothing we can gain from that is way too short sided a view of music (or the arts), and we just don't admit it. In film, there maybe a totally free actor with no training, and we don't know about it, and don't say anything ... we, generally, accept it ... in theater the same thing, as the play is the thing, not the actors per se ... which was the main difference between Germany after WW2 and America and England kissing their tarts in public for better financial returns ...

We got to put things together better ... the addition of non-trained folks is ... a real fact, based on the situations around it ... there was nothing else to do, more or less. We simply can not get off our populist ideal about the time and place, and we keep killing artistic movements because of it!

Personally I have little skill, and I think of my music as OKish. 

Damo was far from a talented singer, and probably didn't have much in the way of music schooling, but he was one of the most compelling, and interesting singers... I could listen to him yell all day and never lose interest.  CAN lucked out when they picked him up. 

I've heard 2 and 3 chord songs that I love... could be a G, an E, or an out of tune guitar. Some punk rockers just had the magic. I consider the Sex Pistols to be on top of that pile.  But there were so many other great songs to come out of the 80's Punk scene. 

I'm in the minority, I can listen to just about anything, and if it moves me... All the better.  I have preferences, yea, but nothing written in stone anymore. Sky's the limit. Art can be economical. Krautrock is just plain interesting mostly. Consider Archangel Thunderbird... She sounds just like the future John Lydon. or he her to be exact.

HI,

I'm not sure this is a fair argument ... when all one is looking at/for, is from the music side of things ... and the fact is/was that what we would consider non-music by folks that were not experienced musically, or possibly knowledgeable, went on to help many bands get their name on a marquis and certainly onto many websites and lists years later.

This "ability" is overrated and sometimes relied on, by folks not listening to the music and going to the concert to count the meters and make sure the notes are right, as is the case in half the classical music concerts! And especially visible if you ever go to see a Shakespeare play ... where the "professors" only come to criticize that the meters were wrong, and ... and ... and ... And modern music has shown that errors, and things that go wrong, or different, can help create other things that were not expected or thought about.

Obviously, no one is going to get into a special band that has all the talents of the most educated musicians on this earth .... and help them ... more than likely those folks will get embarrassed. But one is saying that what became known as Krautrock, could only be done by MUSICIANS, and not folks that did not know music ... and we forget the most important part of it ... at 18/19 or 20, you do NOT KNOW music as much as other folks that are into their 30's ... but what we're saying is more like ... NO ONE CAN LEARN ... and that is probably a poor thing to say ... everyone learns.

The Amon Duul thing is a good example ... the AD1 was not interested in music ... I kinda say that they were into the get stoned, party and then go have sex!!!! That was the main idea of the whole thing ... have fun! And then, if you listen to their stuff, you will find bits and pieces all over that ended up in AD2 ... so you could say that a handful of folks were interested in a bit more than what the commune had to offer ... be it that they knew music, is an idea and not a reality ... not much shows up in the first album that is above and beyond in terms of musicality ... it doesn't show itself until the 2nd album, which we definitely know there are some folks that know what they are doing, or ... have learnt some more since their leaving the earlier commune. And playing together probably helped them learn a few things ... even better.

And, in the end, you even get a Sufi Master playing several instruments ... he could do it on the guitar or the violin, it did not matter which!

I find the comparison to various folks a bad idea ... SH and almost all of the folks around/near Canterbury were all ... what I would say advanced music students ... with Kevin Ayers possibly the only one that did not care about it, and continued doing what he did ... writing songs and folks learned it so they could play with him.

But we have a bad thought here ... and examples everywhere ... that we are not considering ... Syd Barrett is the perfect example ... especially when Robert Wyatt explains Syd, and what got him taken off the map from the band he helped form. HE DID NOT KNOW MUSIC PER SE ... Robert states ..." he don't know the chords, he just plays" ... and we think that it is a requirement to know all kinds of mechanical and mathematical crap in order to play music ... WE DON'T ... what we don't know or care to give a damn about, is how did Syd see music ... I think it was all about the sound he could create and take it somewhere ... and he knew how to make the sounds he came up with, which were quite visible in Astronomy Domine and Interstellar Overdrive, and then ... PF replaced Syd with the guy that (supposedly) was his guitar teacher ... and I think that Syd did not want to learn that stuff because it interfered with his working off the sounds, and create the next sound and the next sound ... but we think that all bands are made of gold and not bread and butter!

Hi,

Practice is only as good as the individual depends on it ... but, with my experience in acting with actors, and complete improvisation, I will change this comment to something different ... practice is dependent on your ability to concentrate, and sometimes, practicing 10 hours is a sign that this person's interest and commitment to a piece of music, is a problem ... otherwise the player would pick it up much better and easier.

Another issue ... the generalities are bad, for you and I, although I think what you say is easier to accept than what I am stating, which still is underneath it all and not discussed much ... I even tried to communicate with a "teacher" of music and his articles on various development ideas ... and his answer? SILENCE. His idea of music? His ideas ... and he has not shown an interest in the students at all and none of them will ever get "there" and better with his work ... you can't work with other ideas ... you can only improve with your own ability to concentrate ... and then adapt the little teeny details that help you do what you have to do ... this is the part that is ignored altogether.

Jakob, please look up some of Peter Brooks books on acting, and a lot of his improvising discussions ... they are mind blowing. One actor, Keith Michell did King Lear with him and they toured for some 200+ shows ... and Keith was an intuitive actor and did not like rehearsing ... and yet at the moments of ... the best in Shakespeare, he would have a set of repetitive lines, that he did every night, and PB's comment was ... he never heard Keith do it the same way twice in a couple of years ... and THAT has nothing to do with PRACTICE at all ... that has to do with one's intuition and ability to concentrate, and he was very comfortable in his role as the King, and he played it as if every night was a different night, and it was magnificent. You would want to see that display, anytime!

I'm not going to discuss RF's "practice" ... as I do not believe that he needs it as much as he thinks, unless he has an idea that his fingers will tighten up as he gets older and the practice will help slow that down ... I'm not sure of that ... you can't change/cheat time. It is my idea that he has lapses and gets interrupted mentally, and it bothers him (just like Keith Jarrett in his later days with some coughing!) ... and takes his attention away from things, thus he uses the headset to ensure he can stay focused and not quite worried about "externals". His practicing might be simply to ensure he knows what he has to do tonight, instead of anything else, and that would be a reminder, not a practice. But anyone ... ANYONE ... having to practice scales that much? They are not listening and they do not exactly know how how to work with them ... and are probably afraid to even think a different note is going to screw up everything ... which means that the student was not taught how to get and feel better about the work he/she does ... that has nothing to do with practice, but it shows when the time comes.

Classical music, in its best, is not exactly the best and its over rated "practice" is a sign that the audience that is not playing music is there to count the meters and the notes, and then go teach their music class tomorrow! These folks are not good teachers of music, in fact, I often consider them the leftovers that never made it, which is the same case in the story of film and theater. And those folks are known to deceive their students into thinking that this or that is the law and what you need, and it isn't ... all you need is YOU ... and we still ignore that discussion!

...

And we still do not recognize how much of this individualism was what created what we consider "krautrock" that was also massive in film and theater, where these things are more visible. And, in many ways, someone from the outside making that comment about the Germans, was obviously a loser that will never get on stage and play music ... and think himself bigger than the music, the musician, or the artist ... and this is a bad issue when it comes to discussing intuitive materials ... like here, some folks are not going to like it!

I'm OK with that ... but the arts are not your idea or mine, or theirs ... but one thing that scares us, is when it is intuitive, and we can not see where it comes from! Heck, we don't know anything about the human spirit any more than we do the Universe!

Hi,

Practice is only as good as the individual depends on it ... but, with my experience in acting with actors, and complete improvisation, I will change this comment to something different ... practice is dependent on your ability to concentrate, and sometimes, practicing 10 hours is a sign that this person's interest and commitment to a piece of music, is a problem ... otherwise the player would pick it up much better and easier.

I don't see this being strongly true . Or perhaps your description of this applies mostly to rare cases. I grew up in a Classical family. What practice meant was improvement overtime.

An example would be perhaps learning a strange but beautiful Mozart piece that is melodic and intricate. You learn the piece from the manuscript then you memorize the piece and toss the manuscript away or put it on file for a reference guide. Now the piece is in your head. The question is...how will you interpret the piece? Will you add embellishments? Will you get creative with the piece or will you insist on playing the same way everytime?...which is exacting to the manuscript.

For example you listen to a recording of yourself age 20 playing that piece and you are age 40 something now and hear the improvement in yourself. When you play the piece now it's like a waterfall of notes. It sounds universal now where before it just sounded like a musician with good technique...but robotic...or afraid to walk alone. Practice and performing develops independence. If you don't practice much you'll have less chance in discovering your abilities...for example the one's that you wish to expand on. You can discover them through performing improvisation workshops . Some of these workshops I participated in introduced more spontaneity in playing Egyptian music. Improvising Egyptian style alongside hearing other kinds of instruments. Wind instruments for example. Musicians blending together or improvising while people danced or even meditated. But....hell..we all practiced for hours at home. Everybody practiced for hours to develop daily independence

And that just shows why so many folks dumped classical music and are playing in rock or jazz bands. And it explains the majority of the keyboard players that we love dearly ... Keith would be laughed at and trashed if he brought a score to a professor of TARKUS ... because it would be thought of as inconsistent, with sections that did not flow and connect well ... and then in the hands of someone else on piano almost 50 years later? An astounding piano concerto, but no one on PA will see that, I don't think!

Jacob Schoolcraft wrote: ... An example would be perhaps learning a strange but beautiful Mozart piece that is melodic and intricate. You learn the piece from the manuscript then you memorize the piece and toss the manuscript away or put it on file for a reference guide. Now the piece is in your head. The question is...how will you interpret the piece?  ...

The difference here is the director/conductor, in the piece ... and sometimes they are the problem, not the player! The main issue with a lot of rock music, is not having an outside voice and person to help ensure the pieces are more complete and defined, instead of simply follow a high school format! Modern folks think a recording tells them all they want to see and hear.

It is not an exact science since you are dealing with people, but there is not a whole lot wrong with interpretation of a piece and its score. The main issue, in these modern times, is that we think the original is perfect and everyone else is crap! So, today, there would not be room for a Karahan, or Leinsdorf, or Bernstein, or Ozawa, or Stokowski ... because the Internet audience would not like it!

It's like watching "Waiting for Godot", and you don't realize it, but you might see it 10 times, and there are going to be different moments all 10 times, because there is room in the piece for the actors to work ... it does NOT deter from the piece at all ... and likewise I have, and enjoyed 5 different versions of Tosca, and Turandot, and I can tell you that the differences are neat ... and work just fine, and complement the support by the orchestras.

Jacob Schoolcraft wrote: ... For example you listen to a recording of yourself age 20 playing that piece and you are age 40 something now and hear the improvement in yourself. When you play the piece now it's like a waterfall of notes.  ...

Not in my case. What happened 20 years ago is a part of that specific time and place, and does not belong in anything I do today. In the arts, and specially music, it maybe different as the audiences these days want to hear the "hit", or the well known part, and ignore the rest .... but for me, that is an issue with the commercial environment that is killing classical music because of the sales in all popular music, be it rock, jazz blues, rap ... whatever.

I remember a special on Isaac Stern, and he commented that he didn't think he played pieces when he was 60, any better than when he was 30. He hoped that everyone thought it sounded right ... not "different".

If you look at some other arts, there is no past ... the painting is finished ... the novel is published ... and it is weird that we are thinking that is has to be different ... it doesn't, and more often than not it won't be. But hearing a geriatric someone sing and play their hit from 30/40 years ago, in rock music, is getting to be a really tiring experience, and very boring ... and the feeling and desire to do it for its own life, is not there!

Jacob Schoolcraft wrote: ... It sounds universal now where before it just sounded like a musician with good technique...but robotic...or afraid to walk alone. Practice and performing develops independence. If you don't practice much you'll have less chance in discovering your abilities...for example the one's that you wish to expand on.  ...

This is different for everyone. Some folks will practice and be looking for new spots and specific places when they can do something to it ... others are merely making sure their notes are in order. But expecting John Myung, or Robert Fripp to do it simply to find something is not likely ... but if Robert is honest about how he came up some 50 years with so much new music, you can say right away it was not by accident ... and it was not by design either ... and likely a combination of factors that required something else, depending on what he does for fun in between.

This is the really hard part in "krautrock" and not all the bands were really good in concert ... with Tangerine Dream probably being the one that made sure that things were together and clear ... you always recognized the piece. And then you can see Grobschnitt, and in one album (Solar Music Live Remastered) there are several versions of the same piece, and it suggests that even in concert they could not stick to a script and loved to flow around, AND DID! Can was likely not to be the same, although the recent release of them live showed some of the limitations that Damo accidentally created for himself and the band. But no one said it was bad or wrong, and if you watch the Jaki Liebezeit tribute ... it was magnificent with both Damo and Michael Rother just far out and amazing! Amon Duul 2 is the only band that did not exactly sound good in concert after their first 10 years, when they likely wanted to be freer and not be tied to rehearsals and more band fights ... and it is sad in many ways, although the show that has some #Nada Moonshine Number ... seems to be much better rehearsed, but the rest of their material wasn't at all it feels like! It's really hard to determine here what the issue was ... but the members were known to be very independent and sometimes not cooperative with each other. Guru Guru is another example ... I am not sure that Mani cared what the music sounded like as long as he and the band could have fun for the audience and his antics and costumes would help the party ... but they also lost a lot in the translation ... which I think goes back to the lack of a rehearsal.

Long live Krautrock ... folks just don't seem to care how it came about and with whom, except their ideas about this and that, which can be easily dismantled in the next band listed.

But it all worked, and came alive ... and we remember it, more than ever! I think that says more about the very process than it does "music" per se ... but in this case the process was not exactly written anywhere ... it was being born each and every time with each person involved .. .and that is the history of it ... that sometimes we don't like because it is so vastly different than all the other conventional music around that we know and listen to!

More than enough audience. A glut of fantastic new music, but much of it is getting lost in the crowd. What's HOT is whatever the almighty media is jamming down our throats daily.  Media outlets cockily hold their hand out, and whoever drops the most cash in the hand gets to play.  Many media outlets own their superstars outright, and spend many thousands pushing them... to make millions.  The media machine did latch on to 21 pilots in the beginning and at least they got that right. The 'Blurry face' & TRENCH albums are works of art.  The media doesn't glom onto them anymore after they strayed away from their couple of monster pop hits.

 I prefer to do my listening underground, away from the flavor of the day. Old & New Krautrock style fits the bill. Logan and I both like YOO DOO RIGHT... Pretty obscure but we found them in the crowd. I don't follow classical or the composers, but hopefully they are composing new material, because I don't care who plays Beethovens 5th... again.  

I found an old Villa-Lobos album and played it through and was really impressed. It took me by surprise. I never know what's going to grab me until it actually does.  I'm not a fan of categorizing... Genres just confuse me, and I am not knowledgeable enough to argue about them, because I honestly don't care.  It's the reason I don't post often.  Some heated conversations here may as well be in outer space.  

And that just shows why so many folks dumped classical music and are playing in rock or jazz bands. And it explains the majority of the keyboard players that we love dearly ... Keith would be laughed at and trashed if he brought a score to a professor of TARKUS ... because it would be thought of as inconsistent, with sections that did not flow and connect well ... and then in the hands of someone else on piano almost 50 years later? An astounding piano concerto, but no one on PA will see that, I don't think!

They were snobs. But there's open minded people everywhere. Many classically trained keyboardists I knew in the 70s loved Tarkus and spent hours learning how to play it. They certainly realized that the Classical community was full of snobbery...they had to deal with it everyday.

There are all kinds of music snobs. They make my skin crawl. There are stupid snobs.. they walk in on you as you practice and say..."Well...I can tell when you're making a mistake" I'm suppose to be making mistakes because I'm practicing...NOT PERFORMING. They are conceded individuals. Music is not a stunt car driver on the track. Gymnastics fall into play sometimes but that doesn't mean you can't put some feeling into it. I don't like guitar battles...or cutting heads. It's not music! It's a macho game between musicians competing to see who is most clever.

In the music business there are band leaders who try to buy you. They need a guitarist to play The Eagles, CCR, etc...Southern Rock and they act as if John Fogerty is Mozart . All you have to do is be honest by saying that you don't prefer the style and you suddenly become this bad person in their eyes. Why? Because Fogerty is the messiah. It's ridiculous! "Oh it's a red flag if you don't like CCR. " No it is not! That's called honesty.

When band leaders try to control their band members it's narcissistic. Music is free spirited . It never follows one particular path. Their taste is as such that signature lines played by CAMEL make them vomit. They'd rather hear 3 chord Swamp Rock and praise it like a religion. Their position is moronic. They are fixated on picking apart anybody that plays like John McLaughlin or George Benson. They are the opposite spectrum from Classical snobs..or Jazz snobs...nevertheless the point being that music is an art form not a game that narcissists apply to their own agenda...

I think that the Internet and websites like this one, help a lot ... and hope that this improves with time ... I think a student getting will known for a piece of music that a professor rejected, is going to hurt that professor's credibility sooner or later ... and doing it a 2nd and 3rd time, is probably going to make it worse.

I like the idea of making sure things get seen ... and the only request I have is that there should be more honesty about it, not more comparison to something else.

Was Dusseldorf a major center from where multiple kraut rock bands originated? La Dusseldorf is one that comes to my mind.

Kraftwerk, Neu! and LaDüsseldorf were all connected; a few creative personalities created a very  productive network there.

   

Hi,

This is all clearly explained and shown in the book "Future Days" that shows several areas and what their ability/talent was ... and they were all different.

Really good question, and welcome to PA!  I look forward to the answers that forum members provide, as I have often had the same questions!!  

And now, for some Amon Duul II!!   I love this song! 

I've also read that ("Krautrock" as a somewhat derisive term). 

Hmmmm....has anyone ever used the term "Yank Rock?"  Kansas, Styx etc.? 

Hi,

It is a vast umbrella, specially as this did not just happen in rock music(and some jazz) in that country. Film, Theater and Literature were also a part of the whole thing, and I guess we never saw/heard Werner Herzog and Wim Wenders filming some of this stuff way back when, and then using actors in complete improvisational ways just like a lot of the early music ... it lost this improvisation later as it got more commercially accepted and started selling.

The tough part is folks not realizing that this was not just a music thing ... and I'm not sure that this "thing" will get respect as long as the rest of it is denied. 

I often say that there is little difference between Damo Suzuki and Klaus Kinski (specially early days!!!) ... in their work ... they got into it and went on non-stop with some scary stories by Werner Herzog in the film "My Friend" about KK. 

It's tough to think of the idea that folks in Germany were too stupid to not know what the rest of the arts were doing at the same time. And they were all their friends, and neighbors ... !!!

Kraut Rock bands like Popul Vuh were instrumental to the amazing atmosphere conveyed by these films! 

Then the pejorativeness of the term was lost, and krautrock denoted only bands like Can, Kraftwerk, Neu!, La Düsseldorf, Popol Vuh, and so on, while German minimalistic electronic music artists with heavy use of sequencers and spacey atmosphere, such as the aforementioned Tangerine Dream or Klaus Schulze, got the tag "Berlin School."

I think Faust took this term in a positive manner when they named one of their songs from their Faust IV LP, I think after the genre.

What would be the ideal diving point into Popul Vuh's discography or one should just listen from the debut? Regarding German films, and this is off topic, but I really liked Fritz Lang though he worked in the halcyon silent era.

According to Wikipedia, the term "kosmische Musik" was coined originally by Edgar Froese and referred the kind of soundscapes Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Ash Ra Tempel and others came up with. Label manager Rolf-Ulrich Kaiser used it more generally to market German artists on his new labels, but I don't think it was ever in broad use for general influential German bands; "kosmisch" as a term would fit some early German material but for sure not all. Some of Kaiser's business practices meant that the term went out of fashion rather quickly; at least most important musicians associated with it distanced themselves from it around 1973. The term has been used internationally later by some people pretty much synonymously to Krautrock (also acknowledging the pejorative origins of the Krautrock label), but in Germany itself it was dead in the water by the mid 1970s. 

Funny thing, today I listened to Affenstunde as well [it's the debut right?]. Mainly instrumental. I would need to listen to more of Popol Vuh.

I think I had listened to one Cluster album a month ago but didn't find it very memorable.

Hi,

At the time, for many of us that were already into the music experimentation, the comment by a journalist that did not even listen to music whatsoever, the comment was stupid ... and that everyone "bought it" ... leaves a lot to be desired ... we don't go around saying something similar, or creating a term for 50 other countries that have rock music, so singling one out, was weird and probably a joke ... that in my thoughts Amon Duul 2 made fun of in the "Wolf City" album and another copy of the same song in the "Utopia" album. Both versions were satirical ... and then some ... but the English had one advantage that Germany and some of Europe at the time DID NOT ... a well versed and developed print media that had a lot of attention, and was considered a major comment on a lot of music ... MM and the other periodical were huge and sold well ... there was no such thing in Germany, not to mention that the "authorities" in Germany at that time, would not even release a lot of the albums until a wee bit later when some of them started selling.

Hosydi wrote: ...  Today, krautrock is synonymous with motorik psych, characterized by repetitive patterns and a minimalistic approach to music, and contemporary bands use it as a tag among other tags in favor of describing their music.

I rather think this is not the case at all ... today's folks are not really into "krautrock", especially when it is propped up against the rest of the arts their own friends and neighbors were involved in ... and this alone makes the music seem a lot inferior and not interesting ... which is sad. The so called "krautrock" was doing exactly the same thing that the other arts were at the time in Germany ... after all it is their neighbors and friends ... and therefore, not INVISIBLE like so many fans here continue to do.

Hi,

Today's "krautrock" is very different from 45 years ago ... and while I would never say that it does not exist and it is not exactly "krautrock", there is something missing in it for me, in various examples (won't name them because I don't dislike them and diminish their work!!) the freedom for an improvisation is missing at times, not always, but many of the moments I hear are all of a sudden going into a riff, or one specific feeling that folks got attuned to.

There is a side of the early "krautrock" that is special ... it was wild, free and crazy and that was what made it special ... and of the 6 bands I have heard of recent material, I did not feel that "freedom" and "wildness" at all, and I wonder if the interpretation of what "krautrock" was and how it was used and done in the other arts, is not something that these bands are ... maybe ... aware of. That is not to say that it isn't good, or worth the listen ... I listen to them all ... the whole thing, but again, the "freedom", very evident in the other arts, for this artistic movement are not exactly clear in many of these ... and maybe this is the issue ... the TIME and PLACE ... and all your FRIENDS involved in some way ... is the difference, and many of these recent bands, do not have that "family" feel at all, and I think that we're calling it "krautrock" because it is the closest thing to it ... 

Not all "improvisations" are quite "krautrock" ... specially when they are idea driven, or riff driven ... in my book, that is not an improvisation ... it is an exercise for the band, and often a nice idea for finding a bit or two.

If I may suggest, stay away from the definition of things, and just listen, and you'll find some incredible differences, in how it comes about ... let's just say that more "Damo" is what the recent bands are missing for me ... so to speak ... and don't know what's gonna come out, or how ... but somehow, it makes itself viable and enjoyable ... but we (specially here!) are so tied to a definition that is not musical and an idea, that we forget that there were many people, and they were different and their friends and communities (and communes) were vastly different ... today's bands don't have that touch ... and instead try to sound like a band that is "together" ... when you and I could easily say that being together was not the primary feeling in a lot of that early music ... it was more about being that wild and crazy guy on the stage playing music ... and not just one person, but the whole band.

CAN was more designed and composed and we have to credit Damo here, because he was able to fit in a tough situation, specially folks with a very high university detail and work. But somehow a "busker" was able to mix and make it work ... you don't get this kind of feeling in the recent material. 

This is not an easy discussion, but we all need to get off the definition and listen some more in order to get a better idea of what it was and how it developed in time ... I'm not sure that you, or I, can exactly create "krautrock" in a DAW from your bedroom or kitchen! 

It was, an artistic evolution ... some might even call it a revolution ... and its beauty is still alive after all these years.

BTW, I'm not sure that I would consider both of those samples ... krautrock ... at all ... in both cases the drummer is not free and is mostly just keeping time to keep everyone going ... and in the 2nd example, it feels more like an experimental jazz group with a drummer looking for a groove to keep everyone together. As I mentioned, today, the ability to create "krautrock" is difficult, because it was an artistic scene, not a BAND at all ... at the start ... and it was that individuality that showed up and gave us great material ... in both those samples, there is no individuality at all ... I think it was made to be something else. Nice to listen to, but that's about it ... and something weird ... the opening words on the first one ... and "krautrock" was not about a "meaning" through the words ... and specially clear in Damo and Peter Handke's word plays where there were no sentences or conversations ... the whole of the one act plays were nothing but words ... nd acting that on stage is wide open to interpretation on how you throw the words out or in ... and freedom is wild, crazy and insane, and we put one of those plays on ... and it was hard ... performed OK, but we didn't know better then (1981 that was at UCSB).

moshkito wrote: Hosydi wrote: ... I strongly disagree, because there is a lot of quite interesting contemporary stuff tagged, among other tags, as krautrock, as it is inspired by the early 70s kosmische Musik. ... Hi, Today's "krautrock" is very different from 45 years ago ... and while I would never say that it does not exist and it is not exactly "krautrock", there is something missing in it for me, in various examples (won't name them because I don't dislike them and diminish their work!!) the freedom for an improvisation is missing at times, not always, but many of the moments I hear are all of a sudden going into a riff, or one specific feeling that folks got attuned to. There is a side of the early "krautrock" that is special ... it was wild, free and crazy and that was what made it special ... and of the 6 bands I have heard of recent material, I did not feel that "freedom" and "wildness" at all, and I wonder if the interpretation of what "krautrock" was and how it was used and done in the other arts, is not something that these bands are ... maybe ... aware of. That is not to say that it isn't good, or worth the listen ... I listen to them all ... the whole thing, but again, the "freedom", very evident in the other arts, for this artistic movement are not exactly clear in many of these ... and maybe this is the issue ... the TIME and PLACE ... and all your FRIENDS involved in some way ... is the difference, and many of these recent bands, do not have that "family" feel at all, and I think that we're calling it "krautrock" because it is the closest thing to it ...  Not all "improvisations" are quite "krautrock" ... specially when they are idea driven, or riff driven ... in my book, that is not an improvisation ... it is an exercise for the band, and often a nice idea for finding a bit or two. If I may suggest, stay away from the definition of things, and just listen, and you'll find some incredible differences, in how it comes about ... let's just say that more "Damo" is what the recent bands are missing for me ... so to speak ... and don't know what's gonna come out, or how ... but somehow, it makes itself viable and enjoyable ... but we (specially here!) are so tied to a definition that is not musical and an idea, that we forget that there were many people, and they were different and their friends and communities (and communes) were vastly different ... today's bands don't have that touch ... and instead try to sound like a band that is "together" ... when you and I could easily say that being together was not the primary feeling in a lot of that early music ... it was more about being that wild and crazy guy on the stage playing music ... and not just one person, but the whole band. CAN was more designed and composed and we have to credit Damo here, because he was able to fit in a tough situation, specially folks with a very high university detail and work. But somehow a "busker" was able to mix and make it work ... you don't get this kind of feeling in the recent material.  This is not an easy discussion, but we all need to get off the definition and listen some more in order to get a better idea of what it was and how it developed in time ... I'm not sure that you, or I, can exactly create "krautrock" in a DAW from your bedroom or kitchen!  It was, an artistic evolution ... some might even call it a revolution ... and its beauty is still alive after all these years. BTW, I'm not sure that I would consider both of those samples ... krautrock ... at all ... in both cases the drummer is not free and is mostly just keeping time to keep everyone going ... and in the 2nd example, it feels more like an experimental jazz group with a drummer looking for a groove to keep everyone together. As I mentioned, today, the ability to create "krautrock" is difficult, because it was an artistic scene, not a BAND at all ... at the start ... and it was that individuality that showed up and gave us great material ... in both those samples, there is no individuality at all ... I think it was made to be something else. Nice to listen to, but that's about it ... and something weird ... the opening words on the first one ... and "krautrock" was not about a "meaning" through the words ... and specially clear in Damo and Peter Handke's word plays where there were no sentences or conversations ... the whole of the one act plays were nothing but words ... nd acting that on stage is wide open to interpretation on how you throw the words out or in ... and freedom is wild, crazy and insane, and we put one of those plays on ... and it was hard ... performed OK, but we didn't know better then (1981 that was at UCSB).

Obviously you didn't understand what I wrote. In particular, I mentioned that a number of contemporary bands are referred to as krautrock in addition to other tags like "experimental," "avant rock," "improvised music," etc., only in favor of describing their sound, which is partly inspired by 70s krautrock; the quality of many of those modern bands is indisputable.

Hi,

I would not discuss the "quality" per se, since that is what makes the band ... but there are smaller details that show up ... a drummer strictly doing the time thing, is more the American way than it is "krautrock" ... since American tastes are more commercial sounding. European groups tend to have more of their own culture and artistic values in mind ... it's really hard to find that in America, beyond C&W, Blues, Rap and so on ... to find something that we might consider close to krautrock.

Both samples are fine for me, no discussion there, but I feel the connection to krautrock is weak, and is aligned with something else ... which I am not sure I would consider "krautrock" at all even if the long cuts give an idea of it. But for me, the music in these samples, did not "change" and become something else ... and I think they created limitations by accident ... the first sample using words, broke it at the start ... meaning in "krautrock" was intentionally broken and disrupted, as a reaction to westernized music ... and we still don't believe the comments, that Holger Czukay and many other folks had made about their musical decisions, and many of them were about the American/English commercial designs ... and intentionally going against them. The second sample, for me, was ... just about an experimental jazz thing ... and it was interesting to a point, but after a while, it was the same thing over and over. 

I'm not sure that we will see much "real" krautrock any more ... it is a moment in time and place, and a strong result of its environment, and in America, for example, that is already owned by C&W, Blues, Rap, Jazz and Rock Music ... and any association with krautrock, is more incidental than real ... yes it could be said it was inspired by ... anyone is inspired by ... this or that ... but you might want to remember the words of Edgar Froese ... there were no "leaders" or inspirations to look for ... it was a new day and all that was there, left, was YOU ... no rules and no pressures to do the common public thing as it is in America and England, for commercial purposes.