Grateful Dead for Prog Related?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133912
Printed Date: November 22 2024 at 16:02
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Grateful Dead for Prog Related?
Posted By: Captain Midnight
Subject: Grateful Dead for Prog Related?
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 16:48
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The Grateful Dead deserve a spot under prog related imo, yes they are a jam band however they have prog tendencies Phish, Radiohead and Journey are here (which I have no problem with, I think they deserve to be here) and i think the dead are deserving enough of a placement here as well Under the sites prog related definition "Timeliness - Like many genres, prog-rock has had its ups and downs. In the late 70s and early 80s prog-rock was barely a blip on the radar. During this time artists such as David Bowie and Metallica released albums that captured key elements of the spirit of prog rock and did so while contributing their own original modern elements to the mix." "Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture." Some examples of the bands more proggy songs Blues For Allah https://youtu.be/Y7qx8HaISsM?si=nQaikTV3cbbwCeUq Viola Lee Blues https://youtu.be/5TVEU2C3XEA?si=GYp1dVFDB0Wz9U_p Thats It For The Other One https://youtu.be/T0BZifioxdo?si=4vI3RAR7IQEBFcLp New Potato Caboose https://youtu.be/xyK5xc52gSI?si=2ShsBIaJM5WBvr5X Alligator https://youtu.be/uxTLW_lgRNE?si=CKJIBMB-ssEZSDlt China Cat Sunflower/I Know You Rider https://youtu.be/xCgZxrf8nrU?si=6WMFpYDROFbGlB3e Playing In The Band https://youtu.be/amTokiFwW18?si=OxATcMLvBmYor-Gw Weather Report Suite https://youtu.be/b9sY-kwa6RE?si=y0x3Gbi9wlkVY-jj I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this |
Replies:
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 17:49
Hi, Thx. I honestly think that the GD deserve to be here ... there are way too many cookie cutters listed in the annals of PA and they only put together one or two albums, compared to a band that had an amazing catalog, and so much more musicianship that we refuse to pay attention ... go listen to it done by the Daily Doug ... giving us some of the mechanics found in the band's playing ... half the cookie cutting factory, don't even come close to the ability and musicianship involved. I often like to mention, the idea/fact of two drummers in the band ... when listening, or seeing any of the videos on the Internet, you can't even tell that there are two drummers in the band ... if that is not well define musicianship, the rest is just all excuses and crap ... with the most high schoolish of talents ... specially in the drumming department ... no such thing here on GD ... and sadly ... PA has not been able to bring the band aboard yet. And probably has been rejected more times than any other ... It must be a shame to be so big and well appreciated ... for PA to not make it fit ... when so much less impressive material gets added. And be a total anti band to any ideas of what this or that is supposed to be ... the GD did not need to listen to anyone since its first days together.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Captain Midnight wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 18:20
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It's a hard sell, but they should probably be here in the same way that the Beach Boys should. However--- the real issue would be adding albums. The studio releases would be hard enough, but the live releases total 86 official issues not to mention Dick's Picks. I pity the collabs who would have to do this. My conclusion is that, No, they would be too complicated and too controversial an addition to PA. The Beach Boys would be easier and probably more appropriate (as Proto-Prog). ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 18:34
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You'll find plenty of peoples' thoughts on this subject https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=90155" rel="nofollow - here (Oct 2012), https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=77232" rel="nofollow - here (Apr 2011), https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64755" rel="nofollow - here (Feb 2010), https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54151" rel="nofollow - here (Dec 2008), https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49333" rel="nofollow - here (Jun 2008) and https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32236" rel="nofollow - here (Dec 2006). In June 2009, after the third of these proposals, Olav (Windhawk) wrote this: "Grateful Dead has been evaluated by the admin team as a suggestion for prog related, and has been given the big thumbs down. Verdict: Great band, but not progressive nor closely enough related to merit an inclusion", and in October 2012, as a comment in the most recent proposal, Andy Webb, who was an admin at the time, said this: "Yea, it's not a new subject. It's never had support before, so I can't imagine why it would now". |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 04:00
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I think the site was much more restrictive in its earlier years. We have become a bit more inclusive in the last decade. Having said that, I don't really have a knowledgeable opinion to give since I don't really know their music well enough. I do think Terrapin Station qualifies to some degree as a prog album. As some have claimed on here, one prog album is enough for consideration. I understand the site rules seem to indicate that past decisions shouldn't be messed with (with the exception of active bands; releasing a new album merits re-evaluation), but with an evolving philosophy of what is or isn't prog merits reconsidering such a strict rule. I don't know if I'm alone in this opinion. I have my own issues concerning the Australian band Chetarca, which I think should be here but got dismissed and future conversations got locked down because it was already voted on.
------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 07:07
Hi, I have some serious reservations about this ... and believe it or not, it was the Daily Doug that helped show how much advanced music stuff is in GD that we REFUSE to accept, and instead take on a bunch of high school bands, as progressive, added to PA. I find it really sad ... that one of the most historic of bands in rock music EVER, is completely ignored intentionally by so many folks, that might consider themselves the guards to the Progressive Temple. Well, you know ... the GD probably doesn't care if PA adds them or not ... and they are still laughing to the bank, and with a lot of fans ... because they will be remembered BIG TIME, while at least half of the additions to PA are, probably, quite forgettable and following some kind of idea for "progressive" that is not even a good music definition ... it's a mechanical definition for a jalopy! I'm never going to suggest that the Admins, over the years, are not music savvy ... they certainly heard more stuff than most folks, but I think they heard a "sound" ... not the music itself, and this is likely to be a problem in the end ... the GD, has more stuff that fits that mechanical definition than half the stuff that is already in PA ... But honestly, if I was a part of the GD, I would not worry about PA, and go have a puff with all my friends and a drum circle in Eugene during the Fair. That is much more fun and living than what we're seeing. But adding another nobody to PA's listing? Weird and scary! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 07:20
What was the point of your post here? Just more jibber-jabber. You haven't even shown if you'd be for or against the inclusion of the band. "Another nobody to PA's listing? " What's that supposed to mean? Rather rude i dare say. So a new band or a lesser known band/artist is a "nobody"? PA is still a place where people discover new music... |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 07:55
In fact, the site was far less restrictive in its earlier years. Essentially, if an artist or band got extra clicks, then Max would have them in, whatever they sounded like. For the record, I don’t think The Dead should be here. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 07:56
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I'm not against the idea...but it's admins call. One problem is that in order to re-evaluate a band we need a new release, and this is unlikely to happen for Grateful Dead. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 08:33
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FYI: I will move this from Suggest New Bands to General Music discussions. This has come up again and again, been rejected, and this thread does not meet the requirements for a new topic in this forum (see this topic for detaila on making topics in the Suggest New Bands forum -- https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122381" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122381 ). I don't know Grateful Dead well, and was not an admin when it was formally rejected but I have followed topics on it before. I have heard Blues for Allah and Terrapin Station. By the way, this site goes back before M@x was involved to 2002 at least. Population started with the original owners, they left, Prog Lucky bought it, and then he had M@x, who is web developer come on as partner. A lot was added before M@x and at one time anyone could add bands. The way things work were restructured by 2004, and then we had gatekeepers and quality control. M@x was not allowing all in, and his mind was changed on some by collabs when I was new to the game here. This site has "evolved' over the years with how things work and what has been includable. I would say that we have been more open over the past eight years, say, than before that, while at the same time we upped some expectations due to the flooding of topics. I agree that one should not need a new release for a re-evaluation if it had been formally rejected. And in fact this has been overturned or ignored various times over the years that I have belonged to this site when it comes to cases. Think more to the spirit of the law than the letter of the law and I expect teams to try also think, what makes sense here? Best to ask Admin and others in those cases if okay. A band/artist may not have been properly evaluated originally, a poor presentation may have have been offered, the wrong material may have been evaluated, there may have been problems getting the music to the teams to listen to, team members sometimes do have bad days and make mistakes (we are all human), and importantly, personnel related acts may have been added in the meantime. One thing with Prog Related and Proto-Prog has been that it's not just about the music, it's about presenting good arguments, getting support from the public and collabs, and spelling-out clearly the relations to bands included in Prog categories. Some of the worst arguments have been of the "X and Y are here and therefore Z should be here" when X and Y don't even bear much in the way of relations at all (not in terms of sound, genre, personal relations, history....). That kind of thing hurts the case in people's eyes. I don't expect to see The Grateful Dead in PA, partially as I have not been convinced of the arguments for it in the many times it has come up and that there has been significant people against it. Oh, and Site Admin formally did not exclude bands based on sound they heard for years and is still officially the policy, it was not based on their listening, but instead the decision was based on evaluating the arguments that were presented by the sponsoring Special Collaborator and from reading the arguments in the threads. I would say that if people are to bring up bands for inclusion in PR and PP in Suggest New Bands, try to present a really knowledgeable and logical case in the topic, research any of the old topics on it (if one is unlocked still, things would automatically lock over time, use that) and try to tick off as many boxes as possible such as impact, similar bands included in Prog categories, similar cases, personnel relations as well as links to the music that has the strongest relations to Prog and discussion of the albums that are most relevant to a Prog site. EDIT: By the way, while we have been more relaxed with it in some ways, here is the Official Prog Related submissions policy: https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=3942761#3942761" rel="nofollow - CLICK to read here ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 10:10
I'd love to see Grateful Dead added to PA and with 13 studio albums and 9 official live albums (according to Wikipedia), maybe one doesn't need to enter The Twilight Zone to catalogue all of their albums after all.  |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 14:36
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 08:11
Hi, You know well that I would be FOR having the GD added to PA. However, as sad as it might be, it won't happen, and a lot of music, and a bunch of folks that helped a lot of European bands EXPAND their music for a long time, in the end, it is kinda sad ... and if/when you listen to Doug Hevering (Daily Doug) do the GD, you will find that he mentions a lot of musical details that make the whole thing sound even better, instead of just a ... look ma I'm playing progressive music! ... the artistry and musicianship required to create a lot of the thing we see on the GD shows, is incredible, and sadly, something that often is not appreciated, I don't think ... and perhaps, the main reason is that unlike a lot of these bands on PA and the top listings this year, or last year, is that there really are no "songs" that are styled for the 5 minute radio thing, that PA, somehow, still caters to, although what started as "art rock" and became "progressive rock" was not a radio styled song, but what was sometimes called "anti-song" with the very top bands that we list as some of the most important folks to create something that was NOT COMMERCIAL and oriented to 5 minutes. I'm not an admin, and at my age, I wouldn't wish to be involved (too old and love the quiet and no hassle!!!), besides the fact that many of you folks, sometimes, think I'm posting negatively, when my hope is to make the new music show up, and help take away a lot of the stuff that is really sad and not fitting to the HISTORY of the style ... something that ... I would imagine that the voters adding bands today, don't care for the history of the whole thing, and are simply adding stuff by the numbers ... sort of like ... it has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 ... therefore it fits and gets added. But, somehow, I wonder if those folks see that those same 6 things can also be found on GD, although spread out a lot more into 20 minutes, instead of a quickie ... so to speak ... no examples or realities needed. SIDE NOTE: There is no way that all Admins, or anyone, can listen to 25 pieces that are at least 20 minutes long every day ... the process would suffer ... so I suppose that we have to make room for the smaller stuff ... but how do we deal with one of the biggest and most important of elements from that time and place? I suppose a lot of new bands are "nobody" and I did not exactly mean that literally as it would not be fair to their work or ability ... so I need to fix that ... but it is something that comes from my high level academic family, that loved to say things like that, and in my stuff, on occasion, it slips through ... it's not meant to ... but the point many of those professors make is ... that some of that stuff does not stand up well to the "definition" and "standard" that was created, that gave us those terms and specified a time and a place, in general. I don't, in general, dislike any music ... and will not post a totally negative review, for example, although I tend to come from the Spike Milligan/Monty Python school of satire and commentary ... something that a lot of folks on PA seem to not enjoy ... I'm probably the #1 Goon fan here, and the #4 (or #5) Monty Python "fan" and a lot of their satire goes thru really well ... not to mention that Terry Gilliam and I share the same birthday (Nov 22) ... although he is the man who made and killed Don Quixote ... and I would not want to be! He is don Quixote in that his dream film is still not made and likely will be way too weird for you and I and most of us! And worse ... it would not be 5 minutes!
   ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 08:31
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Time is not unlimited for any of us unfortunately. Admins (in the way we use titles at PA) made it that they don't need to listen at all, but instead the process involved others knowing the material, seeking outside consensus, and then presenting the arguments to the admin. It helps when people are detailed but also streamlined and economical. The most relevant to a Prog site albums can be brought up, the most relevant music from albums, and then the most relevant info suggested (related acts, influence, similar cases etc.). Simple works best. Like they might teach in Arguments 101 (and not in the Argument sketch), a good argument is where the premises that support the conclusion are relevant, sufficient and acceptable. While it has been an expectation that a Special Collab brings a case to Admin, everybody who wants to can have part to play in the process by offering arguments for or against, providing relevant info and material.... In this particular rejected case, I would call it Dead in the water, which might make some grateful. I figure one an celebrate, discuss and enjoy a band whether it's added to PA or now. Adding band does nor make it any more Prog or better or worthy of appreciation from a global perspective. Ahh, late preparing breakfast for my son, bad dad. he loves to compose music on the piano, by the way. He takes after my dad. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 13:54
Grateful Dead's 13 Studio Albums 1967: Grateful Dead - The Grateful Dead - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqDGvd-6tzUuN05G15aKKPEh1KUXwCPDm" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqDGvd-6tzUuN05G15aKKPEh1KUXwCPDm 1968: Grateful Dead - Anthem of the Sun - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kLK8TAijHkQF0xiehSlIW7szKpKWjBCtc" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kLK8TAijHkQF0xiehSlIW7szKpKWjBCtc  1969: Grateful Dead - Aoxomoxoa - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_n13zDIuUjfJpr-s1bxGMNh7axb-KVL9aE" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_n13zDIuUjfJpr-s1bxGMNh7axb-KVL9aE 1970: Grateful Dead - Workingman's Dead - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ko_3E6rJJE0FxW4Yh5wCBdbk_PVENlY7k" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ko_3E6rJJE0FxW4Yh5wCBdbk_PVENlY7k 1970: Grateful Dead - American Beauty - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kZGGsSBwmZSn_K5NHHgvMC91rrmhWVa0A" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kZGGsSBwmZSn_K5NHHgvMC91rrmhWVa0A 1973: Grateful Dead - Wake of the Flood - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kIuk6NdmJ1FwrZPeMQX1yBgIYJjdn0Sus" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kIuk6NdmJ1FwrZPeMQX1yBgIYJjdn0Sus 1974: Grateful Dead - From the Mars Hotel - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6ogdCG3tAWglxi6Zu8X_UBrGtmkhpixD" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6ogdCG3tAWglxi6Zu8X_UBrGtmkhpixD 1975: Grateful Dead - Blues for Allah - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_khc3g5i8poxKSR1IMY0epABITYMVgh_rg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_khc3g5i8poxKSR1IMY0epABITYMVgh_rg 1977: Grateful Dead - Terrapin Station - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l49FDHDzTfCbfdzRlEtLcx_P2Vfr_Xg2U" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l49FDHDzTfCbfdzRlEtLcx_P2Vfr_Xg2U 1978: Grateful Dead - Shakedown Street - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8D5A65C8DF64ACC4" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8D5A65C8DF64ACC4 1980: Grateful Dead - Go to Heaven - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lxBhUz96v1qQstCFK1tcPPT8BmvJagUso" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lxBhUz96v1qQstCFK1tcPPT8BmvJagUso 1987: Grateful Dead - In the Dark - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kfoiDCbuu9RUmVTOECLA8vLfPL2b_2dwo" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kfoiDCbuu9RUmVTOECLA8vLfPL2b_2dwo 1989: Grateful Dead - Built to Last - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kLeflWlXlBVuDbOrLq_r3ndD0WJfck7uU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kLeflWlXlBVuDbOrLq_r3ndD0WJfck7uU Grateful Dead's 7 Official Live Albums 1969: Grateful Dead - Live/Dead - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lTLgsVtg_PpTAsUc28RW2V5YyWlUnXB88" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lTLgsVtg_PpTAsUc28RW2V5YyWlUnXB88 1971: Grateful Dead - Skull and Roses - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpSaCumrVbF7PZY7-FsiArURps71sw2Kk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpSaCumrVbF7PZY7-FsiArURps71sw2Kk 1972: Grateful Dead - Europe '72 - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_naWvlMi2BVzMkhtIdUf4E4I4gnIEsvVyU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_naWvlMi2BVzMkhtIdUf4E4I4gnIEsvVyU 1973: Grateful Dead - History of the Grateful Dead, Vol. 1 (Bear's Choice) - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ntsM2PXjOSNtj9TwwpV4KUx2uk3wuGL78" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ntsM2PXjOSNtj9TwwpV4KUx2uk3wuGL78 1981: Grateful Dead - Reckoning - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kDM7PVCoc6wBUZxK2apbTp3mjnVcH5LgA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kDM7PVCoc6wBUZxK2apbTp3mjnVcH5LgA 1981: Grateful Dead - Dead Set - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kLRFe-dMoLwt32siAvch_wsNec2pIprbA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kLRFe-dMoLwt32siAvch_wsNec2pIprbA 1990: Grateful Dead - Without a Net - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3jodp9xMLVsTEuSCf9lkJyfBZbcKPXQU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3jodp9xMLVsTEuSCf9lkJyfBZbcKPXQU |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 15:53
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No for me. Long songs with a lot of jamming do not necessarily mean the band is progressive. If that were the case, I would suggest The Allman Brothers were far more "progressive" in how they made progressive blues, and their elongated jams were heavily jazz inflected. You are opening a can of worms here. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 16:27
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For a couple of jammy bands that I have thought PA would benefit from having in before, Cream, and more relevant especially Quicksilver Messenger Service. The debut and the live Happy Trails are at least very significant to me. There is a lot of classic Psych related music that could be considerable. Maybe at some time QMS, then everything jammy else.... A can of jam with worms in it or a jam made out of worms does not sound appetising. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 18:55
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^ But Cream and QMS are demonstrably not progressive. The Dead's material was less demonstrably not progressive, and because they survived long past those other bands they had the time & chance to at least expand and grow. When I would see Cipollina playing solo, though an awesome guitar player, he was the same blues-rock artist he'd always been. Same with Clapton, in fact they are both painfully non-progressive and they wouldn't have it any other way. There is in fact a difference between artists who maintain their allegiance to a specific musical tradition, and those who have the opportunity to reexamine and liquidate from time to time. The Dead may not have been progressive rock, but, as I say in my Robert Plant review for Principle of Moments, they certainly were digressive rock. I stand by my evaluation that in the end, the Dead should probably not be added. But it doesn't change what they were. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 19:34
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Are they? Not sure why or how you would demonstrate a lack of progessiveness to the music. To me those both would be fine in Proto-Prog and while I could try to demonstrate again why I think Cream does have progressive qualities, I don;re really care if either was added. I put this under progressive for instance, if others don't, that's fine. Just as as awesome to me however you classify it. An awesome 1969 release. This is Cavalry in case the video does not show for any. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 20:05
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I guess it's progressive in a Number Nine ... Number Nine sort of way. To me it's more experimental than progressive. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 20:30
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^ To me experimental commonly IS progressive. I think that fits ideas of progressive according to lots of music that we be included here. "Cavlary" would not be out place in the Psych category here to me. A lot of Psych and Krautrock fist the more bluesy and experimental and jammy mode, and I tend to prefer that stuff to Symphonic Prog. If this was all about Prog generic kinds of music (a lot of which is not even truly progressive in an adjectival sense), well this site would be VERY boring to me. We embrace lots of experimental, progressive and art music here. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 23:08
| I would always push back against this notion. Never been that keen on 'experimental' and the word 'progressive' can refer to the way a piece of music progresses and not about whether the artist is progressing. It gets highly subjective. Ie 'bad' experimental versus 'good' conventional music? Experimentation is good in itself but can be horrible to listen to. Conventional music can have no unique or experimental qualities but still be good to listen to. I still think we need a strong historical understanding of prog rock and why it exists. I tend to see The Grateful Dead as a band that existed in its own space. They had little to do with the movement that was lead by ELP, Yes, Genesis and King Crimson. They will always be the 'big four' for me. The US bands tended to be more jazz fusion orientated and that is not at all surprising either. Psyche was a hangover from the sixties and largely about hippy dippy culture and especially drugs. The UK prog movement was more formal and conventional and very much middle class and 'safe'. I think many folks have a hard time with this idea and want it to be a more edgy thing. It wasn't. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 22 2024 at 00:23
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Apologies, I was not attentive enough and had not read through David's (Atavachron) post before about being progressive carefully. I have little opinion on the Grateful Dead other than I would not support it based on what I have read over the years (not to mention that it was rejected) but I, for my cans of worms examples, have should support for both Cream and Quicksilver Messenger Service for Proto-Prog or maybe Psych for QMS. Not saying I would add those, or they should be in, but I think they are not really unreasonable to me (using those as bluesy jammy bands with psychedelic and experimental music examples). Cream has direct relations with acts included in PA, I think it is significant to the progression of rock in the 60s, and it has quirky music with what I think of as progressive qualities. Quicksilver Messenger Service may not have progressed much as a band, but I find the earlier material to be musically relevant to other music at this site. I only know the 60s material well. Progressive can mean different things. One might describe progressive rock as rock without boundaries and rock that breaks free of rock's genre conventions. And music that progresses what rock can be and do. So unconventional rock. Rock without limits. It can be a genre with subcategories as most defined by certain bands and their followers. Progressive can refer to the way music shifts in track. It can be an approach, style, developments in the music itself, developments over time, an adjective, a noun..... With Prog as a "proper" genre, I tend to think in narrower terms, but Prog Archives has embraced a very wide diversity of music that can fits more than traditional notions of Prog. I like that because it has more music of interest to me and I have discovered more music of interest to me because of it. If talking those bluesy Psych jam bands, you;re much more likely to find music in common with other acts in the Psych category and Krautrock than in Symphonic Prog or Neo-Prog. I'm glad that so much experimental and art music has been included in PA, and I'm glad there is diversity. It is good to understand the history and to know how things have changed and more styles and approaches have been adopted. The Grateful Dead is a different movement from tat British progressive movement (or movements) and that should be recognised. As for bad and good, that's so subjective. What's good experimental music to me may be bad to another, and what;s good conventional music to another may be bad to/for me and vice versa. Beauty and worth often is in the ear of the behearer. There is much melodic rock in PA loved by many that is almost unbearable for me to listen to, and to some music which I even find beautiful others just describe as noise or non-music. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 22 2024 at 00:36
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Cream absolutely influenced prog, you can hear it (e.g. Tempest just as one example). So I would not object to them being in the Proto-prog category. Quicksilver is a different matter, and as they did not influence prog (to my ears), I'd have to hear a largely progressive album from them which I am not aware exists. To reiterate, when all is said & done, I don't think the Grateful Dead would be an astute addition to any category on PA. Brian Wilson & Brothers, aka The Beach Boys are another matter and the evidence for Protoprog is abundant and evident. In fact they were the first true progressive rock band. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 22 2024 at 00:53
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Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 22 2024 at 00:55
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 22 2024 at 00:59
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^^ I wasn't trying to imply that that is a reason to exclude the Dead if that's how you perceived it. Others might think that. I've posted so much in this topic that it can be easy to lose the greater context in very selective quoting. That was just a little comment linking to something Richard said (think that's quite clear if one's been reading through the posts sequentially). I didn't add JA, but I have supported it and I support a lot of related music that was included in PA. As I said, I don't know Dead very well, but there is lot of bluesy psych music (and jammy music) in PA that I do support (lots in Psychedelic Prog, Krautrock, find stuff in Related etc.) I appreciate the diversity of PA as I have been saying. I like that so many movements and styles are present. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 22 2024 at 01:15
Uh, no, they were a rock band through & through whether that makes sense to a modern rock listener or not. It would be like saying the Beatles were a pop band when, in every way ~ their roots, influences, approach, early music, later music, social impact ~ both the Beatles and the Beach Boys were a rock 'n roll outfit, even if that doesn't sit well with us. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 22 2024 at 01:41
Now, don't get me wrong; I'm not here waving a flag for
the inclusion of the Dead in Progarchives. After all, much like
Jefferson Airplane, they have absolutely no connection to the
progressive rock movement whatsoever. I merely wished to refute your
rather flimsy argument(s) for not including the Dead, although you, on
the other side, as you said, supported the inclusion of another, even less psychedelic band from the San Francisco scene that also has nothing to do with the late 1960s progressive rock movement in Britain.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 22 2024 at 01:58
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I must not be making myself clear. That was not an argument I was making for excluding the Dead. That was just a comment referencing something Richard said in the post that I was responding to (it was a throwaway comment directed at Richard because of what he said). All I can say is that I have not been convinced from reading arguments that The Dead should be included over the years and that it has been rejected for Prog Related before, well overturning that might be problematic. I actually don't personally care that much about what gets added to PA (at one time I care more) but if an SC brings an act to me for consideration for PR or PP, I take how I respond to that seriously. I'm a forum guy, I like the community (well, mostly), the DB doesn't interest that much, but I like talking music and ideas with people, sharing music and some laughs (even if I am the only to laugh at my silly jokes, well not even I laugh at them). Anyway, I will now leave this topic to any who may still be interested. I came into it to try to clear up some misconceptions and now just seem to be muddying the waters. :) I don;t know what flimsy arguments you think I have been trying to make, and I just don't think you're understanding where I'm coming from. That's okay, I'm not always very clear Svet. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |