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USA Seventies 'Prog' that is NOT Jazz Fusion!

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Forum Name: Prog Polls
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133438
Printed Date: December 01 2024 at 23:42
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Topic: USA Seventies 'Prog' that is NOT Jazz Fusion!
Posted By: richardh
Subject: USA Seventies 'Prog' that is NOT Jazz Fusion!
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 04:12
I have excluded the Jazz Fusion mob which accounts for 90% of the prog from USA. It's their thing after all. I'm including the Dan because I don't think they should be classed as Jazz fusion. I class them as 'Eclectic'. It's my poll so my decision. Actually Kansas are really the only significant band or artist of any note from the USA from that period that called by called 'prog' IMO.



Replies:
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 04:36
Predictable I know, but it has to be Kansas tbh...

I'm guessing Styx got in by the skin of their fingernails? Toto (Hydra/ Turn Back) have a feint shout here, as do Journey (first 3), early Reo & early Chicago... but I know we're pushing it a bit.

Utopia would have been in with a shout, but its really all based on the strength of one album, so...


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Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 04:46
1. Kansas
2. Styx
3. Steely Dan 
4. Utopia


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 04:56

Frank Zappa - Over-nite Sensation

Well, it's actually The Mothers album, but I reckon it's okay to include it here.






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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 05:17
I'm obviously for Zappa, but he will likely win the poll so I vote for my second choice: Kansas


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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 05:22
Zappa will win any poll anyway Tongue


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 05:31
Zappa
Steely Dan
Kansas
Utopia


Others...Todd Rundgren's solo material, Happy the Man, and Dixie Dregs (more country and rock than prog). And the bands I listed are all "significant" for me.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 05:32
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Actually Kansas are really the only significant band or artist of any note from the USA from that period that called by called 'prog' IMO.

I'd include Zappa's Over-nite Sensation and the first two of Utopia's and Happy the Man's albums.




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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 05:44
It's between these three:

Steely Dan
Zappa
Beefheart

All known to be quite difficult, unpleasant people - and musical dictators. I think both the first and the last option are closer to my heart than the guy in the middle. I think I'll go for Beefheart.



Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 05:50
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Actually Kansas are really the only significant band or artist of any note from the USA from that period that called by called 'prog' IMO.

I'd include Zappa's Over-nite Sensation and the first two of Utopia's and Happy the Man's albums.



I can't think of any Zappa release that was Prog. Now, 'Prog' sort of fits. It's Avant-Garde, Experimental. In many ways what Zappa did was beyond Prog. 


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 06:01
Frank Zappa, and the rest are very close in second.


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 06:28
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Actually Kansas are really the only significant band or artist of any note from the USA from that period that called by called 'prog' IMO.

I'd include Zappa's Over-nite Sensation and the first two of Utopia's and Happy the Man's albums.
I can't think of any Zappa release that was Prog. Now, 'Prog' sort of fits. It's Avant-Garde, Experimental. In many ways what Zappa did was beyond Prog. 
I don't disagree. Mother of Invention-era Zappa comes close every once in a while though. This reminds me a lot about early Soft Machine + guitar. So much I was certain it had to be them the first time I heard it. If Canterbury Scene is Prog and not just 'Prog'



Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 06:51
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I can't think of any Zappa release that was Prog.
You could say the same of Pink Floyd, ELP, and Tull (besides Thick as a Brick).


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 06:57
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I can't think of any Zappa release that was Prog.
You could say the same of Pink Floyd, ELP, and Tull (besides Thick as a Brick).
Really? ELP? Tull? I could name a handful albums more by Tull I consider to be mainly Prog. And I've never heard or seen anyone saying that about ELP ever before.


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 07:06
^Ok so, name me the 70's Tull albums that are prog, besides Thick... Tull was more of a folk rock band. Is Bungle in the Jungle,Locomotive Breath, Too Old to Rock and Roll prog songs? For ELP, they were more classical influenced rock with the Lake penned guitar "hit". If Zappa isn't prog then...


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 07:09
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Actually Kansas are really the only significant band or artist of any note from the USA from that period that called by called 'prog' IMO.

I'd include Zappa's Over-nite Sensation and the first two of Utopia's and Happy the Man's albums.
As other significant works, also:
Yezda Urfa - Boris
Cathedral - Glass Stories


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 08:05
Zappa
Kansas
Styx


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Welcome to the middle of the film.


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 08:14
Some of Bloodrock's albums strayed into prog territory; I am thinking of Bloodrock USA and Bloodrock Passages, for example. 
            Known mainly for their one hit DOA-there is much more to them than that....


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 08:44
Went with Zappa. I'm also a fan of the short-lived Yezda Urfa and Quill. I'm sitting here watching rubber elastomers falling down the steps.

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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: Octopus II
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 08:47
Steely Dan
Captain Beefheart
Styx
Kansas


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 08:51
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Went with Zappa. I'm also a fan of the short-lived Yezda Urfa and Quill. I'm sitting here watching rubber elastomers falling down the steps.

There was also a rather short lived band called Fireballet that was quite good. Smile

Another short lived one was Babylon. Definitely worth checking out. 
 




Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 08:58
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Ok so, name me the 70's Tull albums that are prog, besides Thick... Tull was more of a folk rock band. Is Bungle in the Jungle,Locomotive Breath, Too Old to Rock and Roll prog songs? For ELP, they were more classical influenced rock with the Lake penned guitar "hit". If Zappa isn't prog then...


I don't get it. Doesn't ELP's classically influenced rock qualify as Prog to you? That's what most people not into Prog think Prog is all about really (if they have an opinion at all that is). ELP y influenced a myriad of Progbands all over Europe with pretty much that exact approach.

I think of A Passion Play, Minstrel in the Gallery, Aqualung... as 1970's Folky Prog albums (as there's a lot of folk in a lot of Prog) and the way I see it; Songs From the Wood and Heavy Horses are Prog Folk albums.

Btw: Zappa is more than Prog enough for me (moreso than Zappa himself would care for), but I'm among the more - or even most inclusive in my Prog definition. And I include Jazz Fusion as "Progressive Rock" sort of. But many don't think that way.


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 09:03
^I was only making a point based on Mike's post. If Zappa is not prog, then hardly anyone deserves that genre label.


Posted By: VianaProghead
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 09:10
Frank Zappa, one of the most important and best artists.

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"PROG IS MY FERRARI".
Jem Godfrey (Frost*)


Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 09:12
Voted for Zappa with a mention for Crack the Sky.


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 09:20
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^I was only making a point based on Mike's post. If Zappa is not prog, then hardly anyone deserves that genre label.
Not a particularly stong point I think. To me it's obvious that Zappa is an artist in the outskirts of, but to me personally within the realms of Progressive Rock. Early 1970's ELP, Genesis, Yes etc... are prototypically Prog Rock. So I understand why everyone agrees that the three latter bands represent classic Prog Rock, and why not everyone agrees that Zappa belongs in that company.


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 09:51
Kansas
Utopia (first three albums only)
FZ

Synergy and Starcastle should be part of this poll.

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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 09:57
Zappa. Though I am very partial to Happy the Man.(function(){function c(){var b=a.contentDocument||a.contentWindow.document;if(b){var d=b.createElement('script');d.innerHTML="window.__CF$cv$params={r:'8bd6c78fcee8cd44',t:'MTcyNTM3NzQxMC4wMDAwMDA='};var a=document.createElement('script');a.nonce='';a.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(a);";b.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(d)}}if(document.body){var a=document.createElement('iframe');a.height=1;a.width=1;a.style.position='absolute';a.style.top=0;a.style.left=0;a.style.border='none';a.style.visibility='hidden';document.body.appendChild(a);if('loading'!==document.readyState)c();else if(window.addEventListener)document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded',c);else{var e=document.onreadystatechange||function(){};document.onreadystatechange=function(b){e(b);'loading'!==document.readyState&&(document.onreadystatechange=e,c())}}}})();< height="1" width="1" style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium; visibility: ;"> < ="moz-extension://43b2f080-605b-43b2-8960-0fdce0f3f395/js/app.js" ="text/">


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 10:36
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^I was only making a point based on Mike's post. If Zappa is not prog, then hardly anyone deserves that genre label.
Not a particularly stong point I think. To me it's obvious that Zappa is an artist in the outskirts of, but to me personally within the realms of Progressive Rock. Early 1970's ELP, Genesis, Yes etc... are prototypically Prog Rock. So I understand why everyone agrees that the three latter bands represent classic Prog Rock, and why not everyone agrees that Zappa belongs in that company.
There is no need to debate this issue. In most of our interactions together on PA, I get the feeling that you enjoy arguing. I'm tired of it.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your artwork. I enjoyed that.


Posted By: mellotronwave
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 10:39
Kansas


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 11:07
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Btw: Zappa is more than Prog enough for me (moreso than Zappa himself would care for), but I'm among the more - or even most inclusive in my Prog definition. And I include Jazz Fusion as "Progressive Rock" sort of. But many don't think that way.

Besides Over-nite Sensation, it may very well be that I'd find it okay to label a couple of other Zappa's '70s albums as Progressive Rock - besides other labels.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 11:24
So I guess Zappa is considered jazz-rock (not for all albums) rather than jazz fusion. Styx is very Prog-lite. I don;t really think of Beefheart as Prog proper but he is under my umbrella. Some I would have mentioned are Yezda Urfa, Todd Rundgren/Utopia, Pavlov's Dog, Mithrandir, Cathedral, Happy the Man (despite the jazz element), Polyphony, Crack the Sky.

A favourite of mine is McLuhan (but also has jazz rock attributes).

Anyway, voting for Zappa as a favourite.

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 12:36
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I'm also a fan of the short-lived Yezda Urfa and Quill.

I've given Yezda Urfa's Boris a new listen, and that's surely some serious Prog stuff, one can get impressed by, which already coverart indicates.



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 13:07
Kansas.

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Posted By: Steve Wyzard
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 13:08
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Synergy and Starcastle should be part of this poll.

Thank you for mentioning the vastly underrated Starcastle. Their first two albums are masterpieces, the third album is "really good", and the fourth album is In the Hot Seat/Calling All Stations awful. There was also a "reunion" album that had very little input from original members. Rhythm section Gary Strater (bass) and Stephen Tassler (drums) should be mentioned with the All-Time Greats!


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 13:44
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Went with Zappa. I'm also a fan of the short-lived Yezda Urfa and Quill. I'm sitting here watching rubber elastomers falling down the steps.

There was also a rather short lived band called Fireballet that was quite good. Smile

Another short lived one was Babylon. Definitely worth checking out. 
 

I forgot all about Babylon. That was a great album too! I have the CD somewhere around here. I'm familiar with Fireballet, but will have to give them another listen. Thanks for the suggestions!


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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 13:53
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I'm also a fan of the short-lived Yezda Urfa and Quill.

I've given Yezda Urfa's Boris a new listen, and that's surely some serious Prog stuff, one can get impressed by, which already coverart indicates.


I agree. Boris is a great album. Their follow-up album Sacred Baboon is good too (recorded 1976, but not released until 1989). I wish they had had more opportunities to record more music. They certainly were a talented group.


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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 13:58
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Zappa will win any poll anyway Tongue

It looks so, but to me, this poll may also look like something of a contest between serious business and the more poppy stuff. LOL



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: mellotronwave
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 16:28
one point for Quill


Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 20:13
I don't think these were mentioned, I mean there's lots more but I actually like these ones.
Captain Beyond
Cathedral
The Residents
Sweet Smoke
Earthrise
Proto-Kaw's archival album is so much better than Kansas. I've just never liked the violin, whereas Proto-Kaw had sax instead, and sounded more like VDGG.
From the poll Zappa, but so much of his that I like would be considered Jazz Fusion.

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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 22:29
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^I was only making a point based on Mike's post. If Zappa is not prog, then hardly anyone deserves that genre label.
Not a particularly stong point I think. To me it's obvious that Zappa is an artist in the outskirts of, but to me personally within the realms of Progressive Rock. Early 1970's ELP, Genesis, Yes etc... are prototypically Prog Rock. So I understand why everyone agrees that the three latter bands represent classic Prog Rock, and why not everyone agrees that Zappa belongs in that company.
There is no need to debate this issue. In most of our interactions together on PA, I get the feeling that you enjoy arguing. I'm tired of it.
Jeez don't blame me for you getting tired of backing up your points. There was nothing wrong with what I wrote. I think it made a lot of sense. Yes, I "like" trying to get my points across. Not for the sake of arguing, but because oftentimes I think my point is valid. It's a natural part of interacting with others on online forums or in life in general. Before PA I was already listening to myriads of bands and artists I never associated with Prog Rock, that I located in various sub-genres here. Prog Rock used to have a much more spesific meaning to me then, than it has now. If someone asked me what is this Prog Rock thing? - I would not select a tune by Zappa as the first, second or third example. It wouldn't be anywhere near as representative as perhaps Roundabout, Dancing With The Moonlit Knight or In the Court of the Krimson King.... It's relatively obvious to me as to why that is.


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 22:59
Zappa was always Progressive, and often dipped into "Prog."


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 30 2024 at 07:21
It's true most of 70's prog was fusion and there were not many "real" prog bands.

However, in the last twenty years the USA has contributed more quality prog releases than any other country.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 31 2024 at 01:20
Zappa was massively influential on many prog artists so might be more in the proto prog category I suspect than out and out prog (hence the 'prog' in my poll title). For some reason I was expecting Steely Dan to get more votes although they are possibly even more of an outlyer than Zappa and also seem to be credited with creating 'Yacht rock' a term I've only recently come across. I included Styx because The Grand Illusion is often considered a full blown prog album (and their hightest rated on PA). Not much love in the poll for them it seems.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 01 2024 at 07:44

After some more listening to Yezda Urfa's Boris, it seems a bit derivative to me, and it doesn't really work for me.

I've also began with new listening to Happy the Man's debut album, and it looks to me as definitely high quality stuff, so at this point of time, I can find it as underrated - it may also look quite promising in relation to my tastes. Tongue


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 01 2024 at 10:49
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I've also began with new listening to Happy the Man's debut album, and it looks to me as definitely high quality stuff, so at this point of time, I can find it as underrated - it may also look quite promising in relation to my tastes. Tongue


Proceed directly to their second album, Crafty Hands. I like it better than the first.

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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 01 2024 at 12:27
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I've also began with new listening to Happy the Man's debut album, and it looks to me as definitely high quality stuff, so at this point of time, I can find it as underrated - it may also look quite promising in relation to my tastes. Tongue
Proceed directly to their second album, Crafty Hands. I like it better than the first.

Good for you, but I'm not sure, our tastes are quite the same. Big smile



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 01 2024 at 14:34
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I've also began with new listening to Happy the Man's debut album, and it looks to me as definitely high quality stuff, so at this point of time, I can find it as underrated - it may also look quite promising in relation to my tastes. Tongue
Proceed directly to their second album, Crafty Hands. I like it better than the first.


Good for you, but I'm not sure, our tastes are quite the same. Big smile



It's not a drastic departure or anything. Same band!

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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 01 2024 at 14:44
Steely Dan shouldn't be included then. Wink


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: September 02 2024 at 00:36
^ explained in my OP but yep I know it's a bit like calling 10CC a 'prog band'. There is prog and then there is 'prog'.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 02 2024 at 05:42

I reckon that Steely Dan is the least progressive of the included artists.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 02 2024 at 12:15
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Actually Kansas are really the only significant band or artist of any note from the USA from that period that called by called 'prog' IMO.

But if to make it short, I'd say that the US '70s Progressive Rock is peanuts when comparing to the British. USA went in other directions, even quantitatively not so little influenced by Progressive Rock in the late '70s (AOR).



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 02 2024 at 12:35
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I reckon that Steely Dan is the least progressive of the included artists.
No. Styx gets that honor.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 02 2024 at 14:53
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Actually Kansas are really the only significant band or artist of any note from the USA from that period that called by called 'prog' IMO.
But if to make it short, I'd say that the US '70s Progressive Rock is peanuts when comparing to the British. USA went in other directions, even quantitatively not so little influenced by Progressive Rock in the late '70s (AOR).
It's of course something else when talking about progressive music.



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 02 2024 at 15:33
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Actually Kansas are really the only significant band or artist of any note from the USA from that period that called by called 'prog' IMO.


But if to make it short, I'd say that the US '70s Progressive Rock is peanuts when comparing to the British. USA went in other directions, even quantitatively not so little influenced by Progressive Rock in the late '70s (AOR).


This is how I boil it down:

UK/Europe = Art Rock
US/NA = Jazz-Fusion

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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 04:38

Actually, I find it interesting why the US '70s Progressive Rock wasn't of a larger dimension than it was the case, considering how popular the genre was in USA.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 05:39
^Neither prog nor fusion was "popular" in The States in the 70's. Genesis filled stadiums only when they changed to a more radio friendly format. King Crimson and ELP, weren't popular. Of the big six of prog only Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull were somewhat popular. Rush was an exception, but were more successful in the 80's.


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 06:18
^Nine out of ELP's ten releases (live included) went Gold in US during the 1970's with Tarkus, Trilogy, Pictures and Welcome Back... all reached top ten. Pretty good for a band that weren't popular. Yes were even bigger with several Platinum (one double Platinum) and Gold records + six albums in the top ten.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 08:46

I'm not saying that the genre was very popular in USA, I just seem to see a discrepancy between the degree of popularity and the dimensions of the American Progressive Rock scene, and wonder how come. 

Has it something to do with the traditions of the American music?





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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 09:36
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Neither prog nor fusion was "popular" in The States in the 70's. Genesis filled stadiums only when they changed to a more radio friendly format. King Crimson and ELP, weren't popular. Of the big six of prog only Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull were somewhat popular. Rush was an exception, but were more successful in the 80's.

For Genesis, I think that depends on what you define as a stadium. They were gradually moving up to larger venues in the United States as the 1970s progressed. Regionally they were quite popular in Philadelphia and Cleveland. Back in 1974, they played at the Philadelphia Civic Center which has a 12,000-seat capacity. They regularly appeared at The Spectrum where the capacity was near 20,000. They appeared at Madison Square Garden in 1977; again capacity around 20,000. If you define stadium as an outdoor venue designed to hold football and baseball games, their first appearance in the U.S. appears to be at the Oakland Coliseum on April 14, 1978. 

You'll also find that ELP were also appearing at similar sized venues in the U.S. in the 10,000- to 20,000-seat capacity. Of course, there is Olympic Stadium in Montréal back in 1977 in neighboring Canada.

I do agree that King Crimson wasn't particularly popular in the States in the 1970s. Their concerts were generally at smaller theater-style venues. 

You can find a lot of this information about past concerts recorded here:  https://www.concertarchives.org/" rel="nofollow - https://www.concertarchives.org/

I find it difficult to argue that Genesis and ELP were not popular in the States in the 1970s. The Billboard album charts seem to show otherwise. ELP had 8 albums in the Top 40. Genesis had 3, plus 2 that fell just short of it. One can argue about the finer points of how accurate Billboard charts were, but if you make the top 40 of their main album chart, you're selling a good amount of albums and people at the time were interested enough to buy them. 

I also kind of doubt that Pink Floyd was "somewhat popular" as you state above. Their album sales in the 1970s in the U.S. say otherwise. Granted their music wasn't played on Top 40 radio stations (with the exception of an edited version of Money), but there were other radio stations (at least in the major cities) that did.

Having said all this, if you're defining popular a little more narrowly, like say the Bee Gees, Eagles, Elton John, Led Zeppelin, etc., etc., then yes. Other than Pink Floyd, prog bands were a notch below these in popularity. Nonetheless, I think at the time, if you could fill 20,000-seat arenas and have your albums reach the Billboard Top 40 from time to time, you were doing quite well and hence were popular. That really doesn't happen as much these days for prog bands, and that's a shame.


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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 10:09
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


I'm not saying that the genre was very popular in USA, I just seem to see a discrepancy between the degree of popularity and the dimensions of the American Progressive Rock scene, and wonder how come. 

Has it something to do with the traditions of the American music?


I don't know the answer. But progressive rock in the 70's (USA) wasn't as popular as.. The Eagles, Elton John, Bee Gees, AC/DC, Aerosmith, Jackson 5, Led Zeppelin, The Doobie Brothers, Queen, Kiss, Grateful Dead, ZZ Top, Chicago, etc.


Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 10:18
Other, I'm voting for Happy The Man, although Utopia rocks!

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The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.

Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 10:26
Kansas for me. Happy the Man should maybe be on the list but then again if you put them on you have to have Starcastle and a bunch of other US bands and it could easily get out of hand. Lol.


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 10:48
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Neither prog nor fusion was "popular" in The States in the 70's.


Pink Floyd and Yes were definitely popular.

Santana's first three albums were huge sellers. Abraxas is certified quintuple-Platinum but has undoubtedly sold many more copies. Caravanserai, considered their most outright prog record, was also a hit.

When Weather Report added Jaco, their music became more focused, more melodic. Heavy Weather, the first record to fully feature Jaco as their new bassist (he played on two cuts on their previous album, Black Market) went Gold. The Joni Mitchell connection helped, too.

And let's not forget Miles' Davis Bitches Brew (1969) shifted 400,000 units in its first year of release.

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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 11:59
^No fusion allowed in this thread. So not many prog bands were popular in USA in the 70's.

I don't recall Canterbury, RPI, Krautrock, Zeuhl, Avant, or Psychedelic being popular. And when was prog ever popular?


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 16:58
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

I don't recall Canterbury, RPI, Krautrock, Zeuhl, Avant, or Psychedelic being popular. And when was prog ever popular?
No one ever claimed that bands in your mentioned sub-genres were popular (except from some late 1960's Psychedelic Rock). But a handful of British progbands were about as big in the USA as they were in Europe. It's easy to read from album sales and chart entries, so I don't really understand your question. Prog was once quite popular. Much more than it is now.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 17:02
Surely Psychedelia has had loads of popularity in the US (more what I might think of as Prog Related Psych or Proto-Prog in PA). Others have listed bands that we deem prog (and fusion) that were popular. As a genre I would not expect Prog to be very popular in the US, but lots of bands that are deemed to have made Prog were popular. Of course one commonly can find more popular mainstream rock and pop but that does not mean that those Prog acts did not have popularity.

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 17:07
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^No fusion allowed in this thread.


Explain Steely Dan.

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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 04 2024 at 17:45
^Not my poll


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 05 2024 at 01:37
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:


And let's not forget Miles' Davis Bitches Brew (1969) shifted 400,000 units in its first year of release.
On that note McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra reached no. 15 (top 5. in Canada) in the Billboard chart with Birds of Fire. It has sold over 500,000 units (Gold) in the US alone. It's actually 37th in the year-end chart for 1973 (and above BoF you'll find albums by Moody Blues, Rick Wakeman and Focus).


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 05 2024 at 05:17
Here is a list of Billboard's top albums of the year during the 70's. Dark Side of the Moon was the only prog album that was album of the year. Sure, Yes, Genesis, ELP, and King Crimson sold albums but not as much (weren't as popular) as these listed.

1970 - Simon and Garfunkel - Bridge Over Troubled Water (Santana Abraxas did well)
1971 - Carole King - Tapestry (Santana III did well)
1972- Neil Young - Harvest (Tull Thick As A Brick did well)
1973 - Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon (Moody Blues Seventh Sojurn and Tull's A Passion Play did well)
1974 - Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
1975 - Elton John - Greatest Hits (Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here did well)
1976 - Peter Frampton - Frampton Comes Alive!
1977 - Fleetwood Mac - Rumours
1978 - Bee Gees' - Saturday Night Fever
1979 - Billy Joel - 52nd Street (Supertramp - Breakfast in America did well)


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 05 2024 at 06:07
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^No fusion allowed in this thread.

Explain Steely Dan.

mostly Pop-Rock  Big smile


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 05 2024 at 06:10
^^You wrote this thing I've quoted underneath, and what you wrote was mostly wrong. Also in regards to Fusion. Which is why fusion bands were brought up. No one has claimed that any prog band had the most selling album of the year in the USA (although Dark Side... did but that's not prog with a big P). That wasn't the criteria. ELP and Yes filled stadiums in the USA in the 1970's.



The Cal Jam was ABC-TV's first venture into live concerts. The California Jam's 10 hours of music was later cut up into four weekly hour long broadcasts, of which ELP and the other headliners (Deep Purple and Black Sabbath) were the biggest stars.

-So ELP headlined along with Deep Purple and Black Sabbath in front of an audience of 200 000 people. I don't think that would have happened if they weren't popular.

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Neither prog nor fusion was "popular" in The States in the 70's. Genesis filled stadiums only when they changed to a more radio friendly format. King Crimson and ELP, weren't popular. Of the big six of prog only Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull were somewhat popular. Rush was an exception, but were more successful in the 80's.


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 05 2024 at 09:55
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

The
Cal Jam was ABC-TV's first venture into live concerts. The California
Jam's 10 hours of music was later cut up into four weekly hour long
broadcasts, of which ELP and the other headliners (Deep Purple and Black
Sabbath) were the biggest stars.

-So
ELP headlined along with Deep Purple and Black Sabbath in front of an
audience of 200 000 people. I don't think that would have happened if
they weren't popular.


ELP was popular, no doubt about it.

Utopia definitely had a following. They toured extensively. No, they didn't pack huge arenas, but they played many famous venues like the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium, the Tower Theatre in Philly, and in Toronto, Massey Hall and Maple Leaf Gardens (where Rush filmed the Grace Under Pressure Tour concert video). That's apart from Todd performing solo.

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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 05 2024 at 09:56
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Not my poll


But you brought it (fusion) up.

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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: September 05 2024 at 23:39
ELP seemed to be very popular in the USA, they played a lot of shows and put the leg work in. Led Zep were of course way more popular, no one would dispute that. ELP were only able to contemplate doing the orchestral shows in America because of the size of stadiums. Also looking at the Atlantic roster of bands it seemed that LZ, Yes and ELP were the main 3 in those days (mid to late seventies). 


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 08 2024 at 11:52

After some more listenings to Happy the Man's debut, I've ordered it, even I'm not quite sure that I can become very fond of it.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 08 2024 at 20:05
I like pieces of all of these artists (plus Todd Rundgren, Yezda Urfa, Babylon, Happy The Man, Starcastle, Boston, Journey, Art In America, Mercury Rev, et al.) my favorite album comes from Utopia (their first), but The Dan have many more songs from many more /  better albums than Utopia. 

And Zappa's 1970s avant/RIO isn't closer to J-R Fusion than these other bands music? (Love a lot of his music & compositional style; hate his potty mouth sophomoric lyrics).



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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 11 2024 at 14:20
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

After some more listenings to Happy the Man's debut, I've ordered it, even I'm not quite sure that I can become very fond of it.

I think that this album is some of the highest quality American Progressive Rock from the '70s.



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Moonshake
Date Posted: September 11 2024 at 21:42
Frank Zappa


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 12 2024 at 07:03
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

After some more listenings to Happy the Man's debut, I've ordered it, even I'm not quite sure that I can become very fond of it.

Happy the man got the original record in like entirely new condition, and it's going to be interesting to see my perception of it after a couple of years of regular listening - but I surely like the coverart. Big smile


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 15 2024 at 06:45

Interesting listen to the Happy the Man's debut, as it seems to me being somehow different from the European '70s Prog, I'm familiar with, and definitely adding something new to my collection. Also, there's a cool 3D effect in the artwork of the right upper corner of the front cover, as the image of the butterfly looks like being on a round piece of cardboard glued on the cover. The whole round image has beautiful, warm, romantic colours, and the whole of it contrasts much with the mostly coldness and modernity of the rest of the front cover - I surely like that front coverart much. Tongue




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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: September 15 2024 at 06:56
Haven't voted in this apparently. Zappa is my clear favourite but most of his stuff that I like most happens to be some kind of jazz fusion!? So I vote for Beefheart. I do like some Kansas.



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