Why most prog fans are the most music haters?.
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133124
Printed Date: December 04 2024 at 09:50
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Topic: Why most prog fans are the most music haters?.
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Subject: Why most prog fans are the most music haters?.
Date Posted: June 19 2024 at 20:30
| Why most prog fans consider Metal (Especially Death ,Thrash and Black), Pop and Alternative Rock are garbage music genres? |
Replies:
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: June 19 2024 at 22:24
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Cuz a lot of us are old ? ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 19 2024 at 23:05
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Nonsense. I was into metal before prog rock, roadied for local metal bands as a teen, and though I always appreciated prog, metal was my first love. I've also always appreciated good pop-- the Police, Prince, Beatles, U2. In fact U2 was among the best live acts I've ever seen. So your premise is incorrect and presumptuous. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 19 2024 at 23:39
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I'm going to agree because you state "most"....which is not defining a % or number. I might prefer saying " a lot". Just look around this site, most posts about different music genres are hateful especially with pop music. I would say for metal and alternative would not be most, maybe some... All a play in words but working within the OP post. -------------   
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: June 19 2024 at 23:50
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I agree, but it's not the "metal" content that especially triggers prog snobs. It's the "urban music" and EDM content. Reggaeton, dubstep, techno, deep house, DnB, grime et al. ------------- On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became. Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 00:04
I don't think it's true or a general opinion.
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DarksideofAbel wrote:Posted By: Octopus II
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 00:10
I rather like old school rock/metal, Black Sabbath are a particular favourite. 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 00:44
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Metal itself is & was considered a form of progressive rock-- Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, early Ozzy, all progressive types of rock music. But that's been forgotten or ignored. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 01:05
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^ Seems OP is concentrating on Death ,Thrash and Black metal.....not sure I would call any of those bands that type of metal. It's extremely clear I think, that most prog fans like those bands you list. -------------
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 01:30
I like some Metal, especially Symphonic and Progressive Metal, but I'm definitely not a fan of Black Metal, Death Metal or Thrash Metal, where many of the repulsive band names are in bad taste and sound like an autopsy report, and I believe, there really is a Death Metal band called Autopsy too. 
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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 02:10
Prog related music is the only stuff that is interesting to me  ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 02:57
Actually, in my case, I'd say prog came first (in 74) and metal second (76) But there was a side of stuff I disliked back then (and I wasn't the only one) >> everything linked to disco, in which I encompassed funk (sometimes Killer funk). Though a fan of Reggae , not ditto for most punk, new wave & electro-pop. So yeah, I guess a lot of proggers (and metallers) could be quite snooty at more commercial types of music.
you may have a point, but to each generation. I'm not sure the OP was referring to yours or mine
well maybe not Ozzy in my case  . Either I was too old or he was too dumb with his outrageous (near-primate, IMHO) stuff. I sort of quit metal after DiAno was ousted from Maiden, but it was getting too gimmicky anyways. I don't think there were that many frontiers back then. I was also a blues-rock fan, however anything country-sunding was a complete tur-off to me. . ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 03:02
The question makes no sense. How do you answer "agree/disagree" to a "why" question?
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Posted By: Zgljone86
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 03:14
I agree with Mike. Looked strange to me too. 
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Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 03:35
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I like garbure...  ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 04:46
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Define "most". What's your source? ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 05:56
| A lot maybe, but not most. Personally, bands like Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, are among my favorite. The newer metal bands, I would say from the 80s and after, not so much, but certainly don't hate them. I just don't relate to their music very much. |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 07:57
Alternative Rock is Garbage - and many other bands I like too. |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 08:16
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Not sure I completely understand what's going on here, but I completely disagree that prog fans are haters of metal, pop, and alternative. There have been many conversations on this forum of non-prog and prog-adjacent genres and I think for the most part, most of us have given these genres their due respect. My favorite senate is frosted mini-wheats. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 09:29
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I don't believe that "prog fans are the most music haters". Prog as a form can embrace and create fusions with any style of music. The Prog umbrella is very diverse and its relations are huge. In PA we find artists/bands that fall into pop stylings, metal, alternative... that can be described in any of those ways. David Bowie and Kate Bush are two much loved by many in PA that I would refer to as pop (or art pop), and I generally love their most popular music. I don't interact with "Proggers" outside of this forum, and I have had some friends into some of it, so my experience is limited. My friends were into diverse music. If you look to General Music Discussions one can see the diversity of appreciation from many into Prog, and considering how diverse Prog can be, this is to be expected by me. Art Pop is a favourite designation of mine, and I love much music both considered alternative and pop that is in and out of PA. As for metal, i tend to be more into the early classic heavy metal (before metal proper one might say), as well as stoner and doom, but there is much more extreme metal that I enjoy. |
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 16:15
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I love a lot of different music, but it's time-oriented (1960-70s)., including a lot of non-prog stuff, but for me, a little bit of prog goes a LONG way. I do think that proggers have better self-awareness than the average music listener and know what they like and might be able to express it better than others, hence, being able to find what you like. I'd also add that music fans who sign up for message boards probably love music a LOT more than the average listener.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 16:52
I also love U2 and The Police.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 21:39
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Hi, I don't think there is as much "dislike" in it all, as we think. There are things out there that have a lot of different sentiments that not many folks that like rock music appreciate, and none of these with the really poor attitude from folks that are into classical music first, and still think of all rock and jazz music, as stuff from the streets, and not meant, or fit, to be considered music. While the streets comment is fair to a point, in the end it shows the illusion that a lot of classical music folks have been under for many years, and specially going back to its history, that it was an "entertainment" for the higher classes, and not meant for the street folk. I suppose this is very visible, at first, in Mozart, that ended up adding bits and pieces of his bar stuff into many of his works, specially the operas, and helping make them a bit more entertaining, which was an attitude for the bars, a lot more than the stuffed up court rooms and the halls of the higher/richer class. But hearing a maestro say (6 years ago!!!) ... who is Frank Zappa? I might as well have said ... and who the fudge gives a damn about your symphony? And do you care? .... I don't find "prog", "progressive" folks that bad at all ...
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 21:49
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What a nonsense thread ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 21:52
I don't think so. I had met so many prog fans that hate everything! except jazz and classical.
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Posted By: projeKct
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 22:07
| I like good music. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 20 2024 at 22:17
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I like what I like. Iron Maiden are one of the greatest bands ever The Stranglers are one of the greatest bands ever Black Sabbath are one of the greatest bands ever I don't listen to these bands that much but I respect them Nowadays the metal and alternative scenes are massive and hard for me to grasp. I stick with prog but then that often includes a lot of those things. For instance Turbulence, Wheel and Night Verses have all put out albums this year I like. I'm also listening to The Melts and Andy Jackson on the alternative side of things. Sometimes I may dismiss something because of the vocals but there is a hell of a lot of music out there and my brain is not big enough to deal with everything so I stick to a relatively narrow field.
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Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 01:38
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When it comes to so-called 'metal' I tend to stick with Deep Purple (Mark I and Mark II line ups) and Led Zeppelin who as I recall were embraced by the prog fans back in the day (in the sense they were quality non-commercial sounding bands), and indeed their albums were quite proggy in places. Black Sabbath and Uriah Heep probably should also be included but neither band could I ever get into. ------------- 'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.' |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 02:10
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------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 03:11
I'm too young to really consider Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin as "metal". I grew up with metal bands of the 80s, or late 70s (Scorpions, Iron Maiden), and compared to those, the classic early "metal" bands will always be more "Hard Rock" to me. Be that as it may, I like them all!
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Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 11:03
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DP and LZ were definitely proto-metal, and two of the heaviest bands around at the time... legend has it that the term 'heavy metal' was first used by a journalist around 69 or 70 describing their sound as like 'heavy metal falling from the sky'. ------------- 'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.' |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 15:18
Because your personal experience is reality, correct? No, it is not. ------------- We all dwell in an amber subdomain, amber subdomain, amber subdomain. My face IS a maserati |
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 15:52
Yes, I am correct!!!!
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 15:58
| I'm not sure I understand the question but if I think it's asking what I think it is then I say no I disagree. I don't think all non prog is garbage and not all metal either. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 16:00
Pretty much. On top of that it's not even worded in a coherent manner. I don't expect everyone to have perfect English but I could barely figure out what the OP was getting at.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 17:29
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by the poll question.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 17:30
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It may be a nonsense thread but his English isn't that bad-- I interpreted it fine, so let's cut the non-English phobia. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 17:49
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I found it easy enough to understand and come up with a response, but then I started teaching as an ESL teacher. I've been told here by an eloquent someone that he commonly couldn't understand a word I say. I assumed the problem was more the way I strung together the words, general sentence structure, than understanding the words themselves. I do make typos too often. I feel I have little excuse for not being coherent due to my background, so I would be resistant to judge the communication skills of someone without English as a first language. I do take issue with the extrapolation that most Prog fans are such haters based on Abel's sample data. I thought it would be good for him to hang around the forums, including General Music Discussions, here more to better glean the wide variety of interests of the local to PA fauna. I wouldn't think that such hatred/loathing/dislike is uncommon, but I would not assume that it is the majority based on my observations. I won't dismiss the idea that it is "most" very easily either. At one time I would see a lot of complaints that so-called Avant-Prog-oriented audiences would hate on Neo-Prog, and I have seen the disdain for Neo-Prog, and I have seen many on the more melodic Prog side dismissing Avant-Prog as just noise and nonsense. I have seen lot of disparaging comments towards metal too in my time here. Especially Dream Theater used to get a lot of stick, as well as the fans of DT. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 18:13
Speaking for myself it's not about phobia. It's about being able to understand what was typed. If people can make themselves clear then I wouldn't say anything. The fact that Paul echoed my post should tell you it wasn't just one person having trouble understanding what was posted. Anyway, this isn't something worth going around in circles about but I did want to respond to your response since I feel you unfairly labelled this as a case of "phobia."
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Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 18:52
| Here comes the prog snobs!!!!!! |
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 18:53
Here comes the prog snobs!!!!!!
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Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 18:56
| and Yes!! English is not first language, however that is the problem with most prog fans!! SNOBS in everything!! all the way!!!! that is the main problem, too hatefully and snob!!. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 19:21
| You're more likely to receive positive and constructive commentary and feedback if you do more positive topics and focus on more complementary terms for people, and try to develop ideas with people (brainstorm) rather than contradict. It seems a quite antagonistic approach that leads to more antagonism. Anyway, that's my opinion that could be expressed much better. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 19:22
Oh man, you are too funny!
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 19:23
I wholeheartedly agree. What you put out there is typically what comes back to you.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 19:26
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Prog fans are snobs, but they also appreciate many forms of music. Both things are true. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 20:09
thank you very much!!!
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Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 20:46
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Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 20:47
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Well, I am a huge prog fan myself! however I am not a snob!. I like and appreciate most all music genres and almost all rock subgenres. The point of this poll or topic was to get an idea why most prog fans are in my eyes are sooooo boasters, snobs swaggers and arrogant?!. and the last comments are proving it!!!. There was a time that I did not believe it and I used to get very discomfort with the opinions of music's critics regarding progressive rock fans and they were right. Most do consider themselves intellectual, but they are just full of sh*t!!!!. Prog rock is great and I really love and enjoy it a lot, but I don't walk around behaving and pretending that I am better person just because I am a prog fan! that is all bullsh*t!! and pathetic!. it is just great music! but that's about IT. I may not speak or write like you guys but I am not an idiot. FYI: I am the designer of PA's website header and these collages. https://www.progarchives.com/about_us.asp |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 21:06
| Not that I really have to justify my musical tastes but I'm not a prog snob either. I like classic rock (hate the term though; I call it album rock), heavy metal (traditonal metal mostly), hard rock, new wave, alternative, new age, jazz, fusion, classical. Just about everything except most rap and country. I don't think most prog fans are snobs in the sense that they don't like other forms of music although maybe some feel prog is inherently superior (I'm sure classical fans are that way too) since most prog fans seem to listen to other stuff. |
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 21:36
I respect your opinion brother. I can see you are a very respectful fan and not a snob!.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 21 2024 at 23:09
Thanks. I hope you don't think I was too rough on you. It wasn't personal. We are all prog fans.
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 00:55
I have tons of respect for this particular kind of snobs though. Because seeing how hip-hop and country genres have devolved over the course of their lifespan was a horrible thing to witness for me. So I don't blame you. ;) ------------- On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became. Ernest Vong |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 02:39
 Hihihihi  ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 07:17
Hi, I never thought about that like/dislike thing ... the only thing that bothered me, was an attitude that was wrong from the start ... England/UK invented and discovered the world! Period! And (sometimes) that attitude has a tendency to make them think that they are right in their music choices and others aren't ... but no one tells them that they did not exactly look at other countries and what they were doing that was also progressive, and the USA gets to be the number 1 right away ... with one problem ... the USA is like 4 or 5 countries, and we will NEVER be able to agree on anything East/West, or even North/South! It's the worst part of the USA, as those divisions go into so many areas as to be ridiculous and petty. But, we discovered, long ago, with "IMPORTS" (wow 55 years!!!) that there was a lot of progressive stuff in other parts of the world ... how can we not consider Italy/France progressive like the English when they had enough bands also showing the material ... oooppppsss ... the English/UK carcass, for a long time, did not listen to a different language because it was wrong, improper and bad manners ... and they thought their ideas were being subverted. It's gotten way better in the past 10 years, with the only thing that needs to be adjusted, and helped a bit more, is the bunch of newbies that don't know much about the history ... and some of them hate the history because it takes apart their "favorite" ... but places like PA, I think, have helped improve this ... it was much worse way back when and today there are many more folks here on PA ... unlike many other Progressive websites, where the history is actually appreciated and mentioned. Honestly, only the haters hate anything ... and we should give them the choice of the number of doors and make sure that all three of them have a pile of steaming heap ... so the announcer can say ... but it's really good "shi$". Sorry Firesign Theater ... there's good room for your joke. Would you hand me the pliers please? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 07:42
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In the final analysis, no one has to justify their musical taste; I don't really like the word snob...I listen to prog, a bit of old school metal, jazz (mostly fusion) and classical music..don't like country or rap at all. People can listen to whatever they like, and if there is a lot they don't, I don't hold it against them. Be thankful if you live in a society where you can listen to whatever you want....there was a time and a place (Nazi Germany) where if you listened to a Mahler symphony, you would be thrown in a camp, so the fact that we are selective in our music is a blessing and a privilege....
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 08:45
------------- On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became. Ernest Vong |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 10:13
There's a big difference between not caring for a particular genre and turning your nose up on it. What makes it snobbery is the attitude not the preference (or lack thereof). Snobbery implies a kind of eltism and an attitude that something is better than something else. I'm not saying country and rap are inferior and that everything else is superior. That's the difference.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 15:46
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" https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133124" rel="nofollow - Why most prog fans are the most music haters?. " Are we baiting pretty much here? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: rik wilson
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 15:59
| Having worked in record stores for eleven years ; I broadened my tastes from hard rock, prog, classical to jazz and avant -garde 60's music and eventually just about all genres. Even with those influences ; I found it was all good (for the most part ). So, in regard to the comment about heavy metal as a musical description: ironically, a reviewer for Melody Maker magazine described King Crimson first live show as sounding like "heavy metal" (1969). |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 16:12
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But admittedly, Pop is surely not my thing. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 18:41
That may depend on your definition or definitions of Pop (or poppy music). As for me, I love lots of music that gets classified as forms of pop (art pop, indie pop, avant pop, pop-ol vuh, pop tarts...) I wrote this some years ago about poppy music. It is part of a much longer post and I feel like sharing it because it took me considerable time to do. That said, it is overly self-indulgent to the nth degree and was the product of a sleepless night after several sleepless nights, and so it is quite deranged. Definition for "poppy": Poppy: a flower, that thing worn on Remembrance Day that may poke you with that needle if you're not careful, or having pop-like qualities (GED - Greg's Egregious Dictionary) Poppy, poppish, popesque, or popsiquescent if one prefers, or even popalicious. Clearly to understand the notion of poppy, one must understand conceptions of pop music. There is overlap here: 1. Any music that is popular at a given time and has popular appeal (antonym: unpopular music). Mainstream music.* * Note that some art pop artists, progressive pop artists, experimental pop artists,or avant pop artists (all can be conflated) sought to deconstruct pop music, to marry the popular with the esoteric, to elevate pop from its lowly roots to a serious art-form, or to create a dialectic between the low art and high art, a sort of conversation and synthesis of two worlds. Some of it is a celebration of the low, some of it is a commentary on the low arts and popular culture. Some is very conceptual. Some artists tried to buck the trends, played with genre bending, form and structure, and even set itself up against the mainstream and the industrial nature of pop manufacture, one might say Pop in Opposition (PIO/ Avant Pop). Some pop music is more complex than others. There is music deemed pop that not only is not commercially successful but has limited commercial appeal. I will discuss some of these pop sub categories after this list, and talk more about that so-called pop music that might be seen as antithetical to pop. 2. Any music that is simple, has a strong beat, is catchy and is easy for the plebs to digest (antonyms: academic music, esoteric music). 3. Music that is designed to be quickly consumed, shallow, the fast food of music, and is ideal for certain radio formats (antonym: radio unfriendly deep gourmet but indigestible music).* *Note: some pop is much more timeless, I'd say, than others, and can be deeply emotionally resonant and is more likely to be returned to again and again, and has achieved a classic status (others a cult status). 4. All music that has had popular appeal, including rock, punk, folk music, crooner music, jazzy music, New Wave, BootyWave etc. (antonym: non-popular unappealing music such as Hairy Booty Puddle). 5. Music distinct from rock and jazz that has a softer quality, is catchy and usually follows the verse, chorus, bridge structure (antonym: loud 'n heavy duty jazzcore brutal metal). 6. A modern music phenomenon with verse, chorus structure designed for the charts that is simple and included things such as soul and types of R&B (antonym: stone age rock on skull bonking, although that could provide the beat, hmm...). 7. Any music which is easily accessible to the listener (antonym: music that has been safely locked away). 8: ..."short(er) musical forms* accessible by the widest possible audience with verse/chorus and middle eight structures, repeated 'hooks' at climactic points, consistent cyclic rhythms, craftsmanship rather than artistry, simple lyrical themes..." 9. Justin Bieber's Baby, Baby, Baby Ooh" and that kind of crap. (antonym: Justin Bieber and that kind of good). 10. A diverse set of styles that fall under a pop banner, this includes art pop, sophisto pop, avant pop, chamber pop, baroque pop, lounge pop, jazz pop, pop-rock, pop-punk, bubbblesgum pop, psychedelic pop, pop electronica, experimental pop, sunshine pop, Arabic pop, K-pop, J-pop, Britpop, Raga pop, progressive pop, singer-songwriter and many, many more (antonym: a non-diverse,non-set of non-styles that fall under a non-pop banner). 11. All of the above and more (antonym: none of the above and less). What these subcategories are thought to have in common is that they all draw on types of popular music and, generally, have accessible qualities . Some will hybridise with other genres, but still have a pop feel or keep popular music components, but the structure may be changed and experimented with. Take Avant Pop and Experimental Pop for instance: Avant Pop is considered to be music that is forward-thinking, innovative, and experimental. It is said to balance an avant garde approach or avant garde approaches with stylistic elements from popular music. It may hybridise avant garde and academic music styles with popular music styles. Commonly it can still be catchy while being different. Bands like Kraftwerk, Can, and Tangerine Dream have all been linked to avant pop, as have bands/artists such as Henry Cow, Slapp Happy, After Dinner, Electric Storm, and Laurie Anderson. So have Scott Walker, David Sylvian, Kate Bush, Nico, and Bjork. The Beatles "Tomorrow Never Knows" is considered an example of avant pop for how it incorporated musique concrete techniques, Indian elements, and avant garde techniques into a pop composition. Art Pop is loosely defined,and can include a huge amount of music deemed artistic. It overlaps with avant pop and various other classifications. It has been defined as any pop style that deliberately aspires to the formal values of classical music and poetry. It is commonly linked to post-modernism and is said to be a breakdown of the boundaries between both high and low culture, and it plays with signs and signifiers, and so do memes (I still like LOL Cats).* Note: Art is sometimes considered in contrast to industry, so art pop may not be as commercial, but much that is considered art pop was very commercially successful. Like pop itself, art pop has various connotations and parameterisations (those parameters being amorphous). I try not to box myself (that might give me a black eye) into what are essentially fuzzy boxes (boxes with no clear edges or boundaries, some that I might call hyperboxes, like tesseracts, get it?). Sometimes art is just a term used by snobs to elevate music they like,I might say. Wait,I just did say that. Art can be in the eye of the beholder and beheater, but in some contexts art is held to be in contrast to industry (I wrote a paper called the Art of the Industry for Sociology about film, and spent much time talking about so-called Art House film. Mostly it was about ideology). Art Pop can be subversive, deconstructing pop conventions, and melding with other forms of music (notably that which is considered to be high-brow art music, or esoterica). Progressive Pop is music that tries to break with the pop genre's standard formula. It can be likened to progressive rock that tried to break free of the constraints of the rock canon. Progressive pop may have extended instrumentation, break from traditional verse/chorus expectations bring in non-pop influences but still have an underlying pop aesthetic,or pop qualities. Unlike much pop, harmony, simple though pop harmonies ten to be, commonly is not its backing structure. It is generally more complex than other forms of pop, long songs are common, and some might call much of it progressive rock lite -- a crossover between the world of progressive rock and certain pop formats. Experimental Pop can be difficult to categorise within traditional musical boundaries. It commonly pushes elements of existing popular forms into other forms, or new forms, to create something new and different (a hybridisation of forms), It often will utilise experimental music techniques such as those of musique concrete or incorporate unusual sounds into the music such as the sound of a fat man eating pork chops, or a baby sliding around the floor in a bacon diaper. It can experiment with form, sound, and technique.* * I would place music such as Pink Floyd's "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict" under this label. Some pop can and will play with form a lot and draw on various genre inspirations while still having popular music qualities. Not all pop must be popular, some just draws on popular music styles, and can be musically related to pop genres. It can be sound, a structure, an approach, all three of those,and a measure of popularity. It can incorporate various styles,,and sometimes, I would say, you just have to experience it and related music. It can cover a huge amount of music. It is sometimes defined by what it is not, for instance, "It's not Academic Music", but it can aspire to academic music and draw on academic music. It is what it is, it is what it is not, and some might say that both statements can be true. It can be a very amorphous label that can mean different things to different people and mean different things at different times. Some might say, it's silly to deal with all these labels, and we should just be talking about "music". Some will not associate some music with pop that others label pop, to which I would then ask, "How then would you classify and describe the music?" "What sorts of music would you relate it to?" "What do you think influenced it?" With pop music having so many connotations, imagine how much music could be considered poppy/ poppish, popesque, popsiquescent? For the purposes of this topic, I would say if you would describe the music as poppy, or of a pop genre, then it fits. I wanted to focus on certain styles of music that get associated with pop, but defining that is very open to interpretation. This why I put pop in quotes in the title and spoke of the amorphous qualities of both pop as genre classifications and in regards to poppy music. Pop is a mainstream music classification, refers to popular music, and has genre implications. There are those that draw on generic pop and play with the conventions and will not have mainstream success, some will. Experimental pop can still be catchy and accessible. Much of my favourite pop is playful. Of course there are many other possible definitions I didn't add and there's much more to say. That said, I hope that clears things up a bit, or it may muddy things even more. Pop is like a box of chocolates, some is sickly sweet, some is bitter, and a lot might leave a bad taste in the mouth -- rather like soda pop. I would hate liver-flavored carbonated drinks. Pop is commonly catchy, but then so is the Corona Virus. I hear certain poppy music qualities that make me think pop when others might think, "That ain't what I call pop." I hold multiple conceptions of pop music, but pop to me is something of a feeling to the music, often that is associated with the singing, but some music I easily lump in under the pop umbrella that is completely instrumental. There are structural considerations and various associations to be made. I don't deeply intellectualise it (as may be all too apparent with this little essay). I associate it with other music that I think of as pop. It is a very associative process, and that's how I tend to think about music under the Prog Umbrella generally -- ProgUm and PopUm I coined such things as. Those catchy verses for me are often a sign, but there's more than that. It need not be simple, some pop music can be very emotionally resonant, it can be deep, much is hardly disposable and does stand the test of time and receives reputable critical acclaim, both at the time and decades later. Sometimes it's just plain fun for me, but some of it really does move me, and not just move my booty. ----------- Welcome back, David, and I do mean that most sincerely despite any disagreements we ever had. I have disagreed with most everyone here at times, but mostly with myself. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 22 2024 at 18:44
The guys from Tool would probably agree with Melody Maker in this instance. In fact, Tool drummer Danny Carey is playing King Crimson jams with Steve Vai, Adrian Belew and Tony Levin in a new band called Beat. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: June 23 2024 at 01:14
Or is it about trying to expand the musical horizons of the proggers around here? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: June 23 2024 at 06:08
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Rubbish! I can think of many more snobby music fans than prog heads. Classical music, jazz purists, etc. I identify as a "prog musician" and have played in bands that have covered Van Halen, U2, Beatles, Cheap Trick, punk rock outfits, etc. I find musical value in all sorts of rock music, not just Genesis/Yes etc. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: June 23 2024 at 06:44
But anyway, cstack3, you unintentionally come across as a "Rickenbacker snob" though. :) ------------- On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became. Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Moonshake
Date Posted: June 23 2024 at 19:41
| Disagree |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: June 23 2024 at 23:07
Oh, really??? I'll take that as a Badge of Honor! This is my 1973 Rickenbacker 4001 Fire-Glo! I also play a handmade Manson fretless bass, 1973 Gibson Les Paul, and bunches of other string-eaters!  ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: June 23 2024 at 23:38
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Honor? Rickenbacker is a dirty greedy scumbag of a company ------------- On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became. Ernest Vong |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 24 2024 at 05:52
True, but the three albums they are focusing on might be the least heavy in the entire KC discography. In fact, they might be closer to Pop than to Metal in terms of style and sound, even though the compositions are extremely complex and difficult to play.
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Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: June 24 2024 at 23:04
| ^I don't know, they get pretty heavy sometimes. Certainly dense. Three of a Perfect Pair has the closest to what could be considered "Pop" on side one, although more like art rock meets New Wave. And then side two is more like industrial. I don't think Dig Me could be considered Pop in any universe. Perhaps in the universe where robots make music about the common everyday problem of rusting away. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: June 25 2024 at 04:40
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Anyway, DarksideofAbel, whatever the intention of your polls is, I doubt that your whole communication makes it nicer for the proggers around here. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: June 25 2024 at 05:33
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I grew up in Vineland, New Jersey. The place has a "Back In The Woods " mentality. In the early 70s it was all about Prog, but that changed quick after Southern Rock hit the big time. Surrounding towns such as Millville, Bridgeton, Mayslanding are the same. Most people that live there..who are music fans or musicians are mostly into CCR, The Eagles, BTO, Led Zeppelin and they typically hate the sound of Prog and dislike people who are fans of Prog and will obliterate the music of Yes, King Crimson, Porcupine Tree...whatever?..if it's played by a cover band, played in a bar, an outdoor event, or somebody's backyard. First they will cringe with embarrassment then they will get insulting. Most people living here listen to the aforementioned and they act as if John Fogerty is their personal Jesus Christ. As if he is the king of kings. The son of God. There are some people who feel that Jimmy Page is. That he is a virtuoso guitarist and the king of kings. "Hotel California " is their national Anthem. They wear cowboy hats and drive pick up trucks, but they are not cool and hospitable like people are in the Southern United States..instead they are nasty and believe that music is one big competition not unlike a race car event. They take the spirituality right out of it. They see music as something to apply to their own agenda and not by any means an art form. Ironically they treat the aforementioned like Mozart. It doesn't make sense..but it's been like this...since 1976. |
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 25 2024 at 16:07
I can't wait to hear that!!!!
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Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 25 2024 at 16:09
NOP!!!! it is about what I just mentioned! why most prog fans are full sh*t!!!
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Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 25 2024 at 16:20
I am not trying to be mean!! brother!!! Like I said I designed the PA header and the collages and I love prog with all heart since the age of 14 and tomorrow I will be 54 years old, The point is that I am not full of sh*t that think because I love Yes, GG and VGGG I am an intellectual and smarter than anyone. Many prog fans are so stuck up and arrogant. The point is that we are just regular people nothing special. We are not better than punk, pop, rap, country or metal fans. Stop acting like you are full of sh*t.
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Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: June 25 2024 at 16:22
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^ So, you're a troll! I'll say goodbye then, now I still have the chance: Goodbye! ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: DarksideofAbel
Date Posted: June 25 2024 at 16:33
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