Hey Svet we could use your help adding albums to your suggestions Z Machine and Legs on Wheels, which I just added

Agreed^

KC's early vocalists-" Haskell, Boswell"  didn't have the lyrical chops that John Wetton had.  Lake wrote decent lyrics, yet ELP employed Sinfield lyrical skills from Brain Salad Surgery through Love Beach.  

Except Wetton didn't write the lyrics during his tenure with King Crimson, Richard Palmer James, one of Wetton's buds (and original guitarist for Supertramp), was the lyricist. And I think I appreciate Palmer-James' lyrics more than Sinfield's. "The Night Watch" is an outstanding bit of poetry.

 Belew had some great lyrics also. and some that were not.  I remember when I first heard Elephant Talk, Sleepless, I was impressed.   Model Man had great simple lyrics.  A far cry though from the doom laden, heavy, medieval fantasy, and somewhat sci-fi Sinfield lyrics, which I enjoy above all else.   

Who wrote "The Letters" anyway... I forget. 

The Song STILL with Greg Lake singing is classic fantastic Sinfield... Whole food Boogie and the rest of Sinfields album seemed to miss the mark for me.

I liked Brain Salad surgery when I was young... Not so much anymore.

 I wish Boz had been around longer with KC. His vocals on Earthbound were killer even if recorded poorly. Wetton was the Star Singer after Greg Lake.  He also did some terrific Ballads .  Haskell no slouch either with his quirky singing style.   All good.   

The Power to believe is the album that lost me... Me no like much, lyrically or musically.  Every time I hear BUDE, I feel embarrassed. 

 TCoL had good stuff,  but I don't like the way it was produced or "Engineered" by "Machine". 

(whoever he was).   Sounded like the band was compressed in a soundproofed Bathroom with no air.   But Heavy Construkction fixed that... much better.  I actually thought the penis of an alien buried in gelatin was a nice touch.

And Palmer James... fantastic lyrics that took up where Peter left off, albeit with a fresh, more relatable style.

Is Sinfield still with us BTW?  ...Peter?

Memoirs Of An Officer and a Gentleman, All I Want Is You and For You were decent songs imo. The album was killed by a terrible album cover and not having a decent producer which was absolutely essential for the time (1978).  In any case it would have been better if the band had rested coming off the back of a 140+ date Works tour. I wouldn't blame Sinfield for that album especially as there was a lot going on at the time.

Sinfield was first hired by ELP to help with the sci-fi concept piece Karn Evil 9. He came up with the title based on Carnival. That's all well known, Sinfield then wrote the lyrics for his classic Xmas hit although Lake always managed to take the credit for it. He also wrote the lyrics fo C'Est La Vie which was a massive hit in France for another artist and then later for Bucks Fizz Land Of Make Believe whihc I think made NO1 in the UK. Strange to think this was the same guy that had wrote the lyrics for one of the most important albums in pop and rock history. Lake and Sinfield never worked together again after Love Beach.

I did not know that.  I learned something new.

This!! and the only member that stayed through 5 albums

Apart from bringing the visual parts of Crimson (the artworks, the vocal imagery and lights on stage) he also toyed with sonics both in studio and on stage (VCS3 from the sidelines) 

methinks that what irritated Frippy most was that Sinfield collected as much royalties "just for the lyrics" as he did for Lizard & Island.

That's why he sacked Pete, and he angered Boz, Ian & Mel in doing so. 

dr wu23 wrote: Well he did lyrics on the first 4 yet ...Larks Tongues, Starless , and Red are exceptional lps ...so the band obviously did not need his lyrics later so no he was not essential though he certainly set the tone for the atmosphere on early lps.

Sinfield wasn't far from beat poetry as was Procol's Keith Reid or Pete Brown (Cream, JB, Battered Ornament & Piblokto). Actually, I believe the latter was openly recognized as a beat poet. 

I agree with everything, but I felt like quoting this last part

Jacob Schoolcraft wrote: Pete Sinfield was a outstanding lyricist..and of course odd at times...whimsical...bewitching. IN THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING is bewitching. Court, Poseidon, Lizard and Islands would never have carried that unique originality without the lyricism of Pete Sinfield. As a lyricist he made all 4 albums magical. There is in fact something magical about the first 4 albums. ..and they can be dark. They are sophisticated albums. Sinfield's work has a distinctive characteristic to it.

While "Larks' Tongues in Aspic," released in the same year, is today regarded as the ultimate progressive masterpiece, I must say that, personally, I more like the vibe on "Still," which is more akin to the timeless "Lizard," my dream King Crimson album, than the aforementioned KC's fifth studio album, which, despite the demonstrated technical skill that certainly was mind-blowing for 1973, nowadays sounds dated to me.

Never heard of him. But your assumption is invalid. Nobody knows how KC would have developed without him, it's completely possible that they would have found their way towards "surreal concepts" anyway.

Svettie, 

I agree that when Frippy and Sinfield parted, Crimson's artistic airy-fairy license went with the latter and is indeed somewhat present in Still (brilliant cast, though), but it lacks the former's crunchy musical input. 

Too bad he mostly failed communicating his style to ELP and didn't succeed with PFM's English-sung albums.

Thankfully, you don't think he would've changed Boris The Spider from proto-metal anthem into airy-fairy folk, by contributing to it.

Hi,

I think it was a bad match. It was like saying that what PFM had was worthless and it had a lot to offer, and was fun to listen to, and it also had a bit of a laugh in it, which PS lacked in my book. 

I think PS mostly worked at translating things, but in the end, they did not come off very well, and in listening to the PFM folks do it, it seems like they are having issues doing it, and getting their feeling and characterizations through. 

The other well known person translating some Italian folks was Peter Hammill that did at least "Felona e Serona", if I remember correctly.

I don't know if this "fits" or not in this discussion, but going back to the Moody Blues, there appears to be an attempt at POETRY, rather than just lyrics, and I have a feeling that it may have been what got the "Art Rock" thing started, though one could think of The Nice doing classical music as the same thing. The use of Pete Sinfield, and then later others (the poetess with Renaissance), and helped later get more appreciation for the likes of Roy Harper, the true poet since then and then some! I think that by the time that the music went totally commercial (Led Zeppelin) that the whole thing was no longer important, and folks did their own thing. But some of the European material that ended up being known as "progressive" had a lot of very literary work. ANGE was not only poetic, it was also theatrical. Very much "Art Rock".

Pete is still with us: he just turned 80 last December.

A quadruple-bypass survivor, he is now living in Suffolk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6DOGITIfAY&t=7s" rel="nofollow - Bucks Fizz - The Land of Make Believe (Official Video) - YouTube

and i know everyone's got to make a living, but come on..

1. The way Sinfield employs the Lord's prayer is genius and ironic.   

2. The song sounds like the most ominous, darkest Disney, evil cartoon musical number ever.  That's not bad...it's good. Very visual. It's as if the Devil (the madman) is making a deal with the son and tempting him. The devil/madman takes the son to different locations, tempting the son with his kingdom.

3. The inclusion of optimist and pessimist characters energizes the song and adds a tad of comedy. I see the optimist/pessimist as the devil's right and left-hand henchmen, bumbling over each other to please their master.

4. The 11 consecutive rhymes at the end of the song put a huge exclamation point on "My favorite all-time ELP song".  Am I the only one who adores this song like a family heirloom treasure? 

5. The use of words within words is unrivaled. It's varied too.  Sometimes, literally, and other times, Sinfield uses homophones. The wordplay reminds me of Shakespeare. Remember Hamlet's aside? 

Welcome to PA, and thanks, that is a great observation! 

I'm a believer in the "magic" that makes things work ... and Pete helped in many ways, that helped his name as a writer, and deservedly so.

Would it be different without him? Silly question, since it happened WITH him! We've got to give credit to the resulting response ... some of the albums ended up being very well liked and enjoyed. Time to concentrate on something else other than bizarre questions?

in the still-recent ITCOTCK rockumentary, Frippy still dismisses Sinfield's "aerie-faerie" contributions. 

(there is also a brutal accusation of an original member being "the ultimate cµnt")

But then again, everything in that film is made to have us think that the final KC iteration is the best one ever.

.

Hi,

I think, and RF states it, that the band was a total effort, not an individual thing, although he regrets having had issues with at least one member at the time. The thing about PS would be, more than likely, that he wasn't a musician, and why is he here? 

Again, I don't think the album would have been as good/great without all the folks that were in it ... you and I can see their abilities and work on various pieces of music, and how even the lyrics, "aerie-fairie" or "artsy" would not make the album look/appear any worse ... it made it better, despite folks that think that rock lyrics are better than poetry and that folks with poetic works don't belong in rock'n'roll, and should only put together Chuck Berry lyrics, or bubble gum crap lyrics that were so much a part of the radio in those days, BEFORE the American FM radio made that stuff obsolete!

The time for, and of, progressive music in the early days, had a lot of what we think is "aerie-fairie" or "artsy" and eventually lost its taste because those folks did not know how to maintain a true wordsmith alive ... and even folks like Bob Dylan, while a very good poet, is pretty much "anti-poetry" and "anti-art" in the sense that he won't follow any ideas ... it's all about his feel at the moment, nothing else.

Pete Sinfield, is NOT one of my "favorites" in terms of poetry, but he is a good one, and he deserves a lot more respect than the trash he is being subjected to ... even if we think it is not perfect ... it only tells you one thing ... many of those folks hate the arts, because rock music, in general is not really an art ... it's just another popular song ... and in the 21st Century ... the way the audience wants it ... regardless!

hardly essential...

he was an additional piece who contributed light shows and fantasy surreal lyrics from their foundation until 1971. 

the guy could not play anything ASAIC

Crimson was all about the music in the end so my answer is no, he was not essential 

careful how we use the word "essential"

Source:  https://lyrics.lyricfind.com/" rel="nofollow - LyricFind

^ please don't make me write a 4 stanza poem

Not only he was toying with the VCS3 from the soundboard and worrying about the light show. I think he also chose the superb artworks for the first four album (the Crimson sleeves were never better than then, since).

We all saw what Frippy did after he kicked Sinfield out (Earthbound).

It's now November and I'm reviving this because I'm sure there will be a lot of discussion about Pete after the announcement of his passing. Just wanted to say that I agree with the above, and that my favorite of his KC lyrics is "Islands".

He also wrote the lyrics to I Believe In Father Christmas. The 3 verses represent Past, Present and Future. Only The Pogues wrote a better albeit very different seasonal song (imo).

RIP Pete.

Weaving complex narratives into the fabric of music, Peter Sinfield wove an intellectual framework that raised the work of King Crimson way beyond entertainment to something high and profoundly artistic. Those surrealistic images in Sinfield's lyrics found their perfect match in the innovative musical compositions by Fripp. Probably the most quintessential manifestation of that synergy was the 1969 debut album.

Secondly, when Sinfield left King Crimson, his influence did not wane but instead became a milestone in the evolution of that band. After Sinfield's departure, King Crimson began to explore experimental rock. Sinfield's ethos that was set in band during its early era, however, could still be felt. For instance, "Starless" from "Red." Sinfield wasn't directly the author of "Starless," yet Sinfield-like lyrics have been woven into that beautiful song and brought melancholy, hauntingness, and drama.

Sinfield's key role in shaping King Crimson's surrealistic style of the superior first four albums and his contribution to aiding Robert Fripp in music experimentalism can hardly be dismissed. It wasn't the case that Peter Sinfield's work only complements others in the band. Sinfield's work was literally the fabric of the revolution that King Crimson was in the heydays of progressive rock.

You literally cannot think of In the Court of the Crimson King by King Crimson without the words he wrote.

Hi,

Not sure I would say "surrealistic" since so many of the images were REAL ... surrealism tends to make fun of the reality of things with images that ask questions about how/what you see. The IRA was not exactly throwing donkeys on pianos! Or VietNam!

Starshiper wrote: ... Without Sinfield's foresightedness, it is absolutely conceivable that the experimental tendencies of Fripp might never have found full scope. Sinfield's lyrical content was a catalyst for the musical experimentation of Fripp. This interaction between word and sound was important in setting King Crimson apart as a leading band among the innovators within the original progressive rock movement in the late 1960s and early 1970s. ...

RF, already at that time was studying Gurdjieff and some of the things inside. I think (I THINK) that the thought/idea of having some real lyrics/poetry instead of just some funky/funny/weird stuff as was the case in radio at the time, would make it better. Not to mention that a lot of the radio stuff IGNORED the news and the events, although we can't say that with the advent of VietNam, but it helped bring about the "truth" about a lot of the images that the news media was hiding from the public ... which a lot of folks took to heart and spoke out.

ITCOTCK is a perfect snap shot of the time and place, in several aspects, and I think it was an eye opener when it came to some of the lyrics, although there were many in the USA already on that bandwagon.

The innovation part I like, and think it is true, but I think that RF and the rest of the band, was able to see something that could be done within the context of a song, instead of just some poppy idea ... and I think that is what creativity is about, rather than just be topical.

The only sad thing is that the rock media, a bit later, decided that "reality" was not what rock music was about, and here came the "fantasy" and the "crap", though some of it had "meaning", but I think that the fact that it was not direct and pointed straight at the source, was the part that made it ... weak for me. Example: Genesis ... while I like them, they were only "real" (and not imaginary) on TLLDOB ... how much of this took place because the English authorities were putting their foot down? Not sure, but they had the ability to tell/shut some studios to prevent recording by someone with a big mouth! 

Starshiper wrote: ... with the OP premise on this: perhaps Fripp's explorations would stand to be less compelling in the absence of Sinfield's input. ...

RF has never really discussed that. I do think that this was a much more "group" effort, than otherwise. I don't know the words would have stood out without the music making adjustments to it, or otherwise ... I do think that it was the sense of the words that gave KC a much stronger desire to do something worthwhile .... which we/they could not possibly measure ... but it worked out really well, although in Madison, some radio folks did not like the 20th Century Schizoid Man at all, and instead played Epitaph, which was NOT exactly well received by many, in Dane County (Madison) who had several kids drafted and sent to VietNam ... and now you can see how some folks were scared some ... and there were a lot of demonstrations around the USA that some places did not want their kids sent to VietNam, which was a problem the media tended to not discuss, probably with some directives from the White House.

The only sad thing, is that, TODAY, the Internet does not exactly like poetry or artistic anything, and a band like KC would likely not get enough attention today ... as much as we appreciate the work, when we look at the listings of "top this" or "top that", not enough of the bands listed have the same/similar artistic idea or design ... and now we all go look for Metallica's next album! (... so to speak ...).  

SIDE NOTE: One of the issues with creating apiece is do the words come first, or the music ... IF THE WORDS come first, you can illustrate the words better, but too much of pop/rock music is not about the words at all, but the riff, otherwise the guitar solo would make no sense! The wording, or lyrics, would define the expression, and you can really see this in Mick Jaegger, that has been very good in interpreting the words in a lot of their work, although 50+ years later we don't even think or worry about what Mick is saying or singing about ... his time is gone, I guess, but the expression came from film and theater, not rock music! And it's not like Mick was not aware of both ... even his girlfriend was doing West End, for crying out loud ... and he would not see it or ignore it? I don't think so ... I'm pretty sure that Mick was making sure that the words stood out, which he did before, but now it's like ... it was visible!