Hi,

Even when I first heard it, I thought that TARKUS was an incredible piano concerto. It was hard to tell for a listener that was not brought up on rock and pop music, but the changes and the movements within it suggested a lot more than just a "pop/rock song" ... something that almost everyone (even here!) still looks at the piece as one.

The only thing that is scary is how he would have shown it to his mates in the band. And I think that it was during this time that the various instruments and details came out that formulated what we got. BUT, when you hear it on Rachel Flowers' fingers, you now know what this piece of music more than likely was ... all along.

Difficulty, is ... I'm not a complete musician at all ... likely "relative" ... I'll give you an example that is almost the same. I was one of the co-editors of the "Ygdrasil Journal of Poetic Arts" (https://independentscholar.academia.edu/KlausGerken) and I thought that we might want to put an issue out from various folks in the old "alt.poetry" thread on Fido. We got a hold of 5 folks that we thought were "better" in their structure and value, and asked them. They all DECLINED. And you gotta believe this ... they all said that we were "too good" ... and the only thing I can tell you that Klaus, myself and many others, were the purest FREE FORM writers all around, and I don't think that any of us EVER gave a poop about a structure or rhyme or some other bs about a poem .... WE JUST WROTE.

So you can see, how some folks simply do not understand ... life ... (for lack of a better word) and how things come about. It's not a rock/pop thing, and a lot of ELP isn't either, though there is a lot of it in their lineup. 

Difficulty is relative. To someone that only knows how to play 5 scales up and down, something from the Hindu school of music will be totally off kilter, weird and bizarre. And, for the sake of most rock musicians out there that do not (necessarily) have the best education on music, this is even worse and difficulty only means ... I can't get my fingers to do Jaco, or Chris, or Stanley! Those guys are too good and difficult.

PS: For more interest in the Ygdrasil that is coming to the 30th year, check out the AUDIO issue that I was able to redo from 1999. Same listing a few titles down. Gives you a better idea of how "different" we all were!

Strange to see that you did not reply to that write up. But, in many ways, I'm too tied to my own book (on improvisation) on various arts, that hopefully can be shared sooner than later. 

The art of creativity is not a secret and it is a phenomenal ocean of incredible moments, in so many ways and languages and many other "conceptual" thoughts, the worst one always being someone thinking that this or that is "about such and such", of course. 

It's like saying that DaveSax right now is doing a piece, and when he got to point X, he felt ... now what? ... and next morning after coffee, he thought I wanna try that new thisorthat! And it worked in the context of the piece, although you and I would not, necessarily, be able to discuss, or determine that, which makes the discussion of the many details even more important. There is no crime committed when you said you wanted to try thisorthat, just like no one EVER wanted to have a fun time with Vangelis mentioning his thing with t-spoons on ALL OF HIS ALBUMS ... which he said came from the dinner table when he was young and the elders would tinkle a glass to get everyone's attention! Even in a subtle sort of way, that fits the music Vangelis created, so you can see how a "secret" is not one at all anymore. But it is a fun moment and a great laugh, and no one that I have ever met, has EVER given me a linear detail of how many times they thought they heard the t-spoons. I have (so I think) about 13 of them, in 11 albums!!!!

In many ways, it seems to me that we are stuck in the fame/commercial side of things, which makes it very difficult to appreciate different music that goes in total different direction and design, which a lot of "fans" do not appreciate or like at all.

For me, this is like a smile ... a huge smile ... on creativity, and its beauty ... it has no limits, even if we take into consideration someone taking a pee on his painting and still make money off it later. 

Hi,

It's rather nice for sure.

However, I would imagine that FZ, which everyone thought "told" everyone what to play, also had a side that allowed folks that "had it" to flow and he let many of them get things done on their own many times, in various concerts, where it is mostly noticed. George Duke got his moments more than once, for example. So did Stevie Vai. And here you can see that Ed Mann went nuts, which I think that FZ likely told him ... "go ahead!".

FZ well understood someone's ability really well, and their versatility about adding to the music, which a composer would not likely find, since it would "belong" to someone else, but it becomes a part of the piece of music they play in. After all, he knew when to fly and did, and the band was expected to stay with him, regardless of where he went, and he went many places many times! 

You have to have very well prepared musicians with you to do that, so they are capable of making sure these moments work, otherwise it becomes a cacophony that simply won't sound right. AND you just come back to a certain chord that "signals" the end of the piece like so many metal bands do because they lack the structure and talent to develop those moments better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXyMskwBEsc

Hi,

From a writing, theater/film perspective it depends. Sometimes you are into it ... and someone sees it and just lets it rip, and it is a far out thing to watch, and at other times, this is a bit harder since so many times, the "finishing" of these moments is the hardest part to bring back, if at all. 

It's one of the things that you learn from, in deep improvisations in theatre and film. And the nice thing is, that the more you do, the easier it becomes for you to learn how to come in and out of it as you learn to blend it with other parts of yourself, or those around you. But remember, specially in music (as in jazz) you can not think that you are "alone" because you aren't and this is one of the most important parts of the exercises in film and theater ... teaching you to do your thing, and yet, be totally and completely in tune with those around you which is what separates the GREAT from the REST.

IN this example, I think this was "written" afterwards, which is likely to be easier with midi and a good DAW ... in essence, you can not "write" an improvisation, because otherwise, IT ISN'T, and drum solos are known to be mostly mechanical, or simply crazy. This one is not crazy, but it is slightly mechanical, although it would be hard to show it, since there is not, exactly, a constant point, and that is, normally, the main thing NEVER to be found in any TRUE improvisation. 

Probably not that hard, just sounds it... I've never tried.

I prefer playing my own riffs to be honest :)

ok, so I just tried... bit of an anti-climax really - 4 notes, one string - all pull-offs on the upper frets, playing off open string and fast alternate picking.

-- But what a riff!

great one to try at the local rock/blues jam night :)

[not that I attend such dens of vice of course!]

I was thinking that Robert Fripp in many of his pieces is probably difficult to play. However, I think there is something else here and it also happened with Ry Cooder ... there was a special somewhere where he talks about the music and he mentions that someone was writing a biography and one day showed him the stuff and it had discussions on many of his songs ... and Ry stated that ... you can't print that ... you have the notes and chords all wrong. It's all different tunings! 

And I bet so is Mr. Fripp's!

Different tunings is something that most of us can not get around a whole lot ... try that one Chris Squire special where he talks about tuning, and how he used different ones for different pieces. It is far out, and you know right away it's not just about the notes for many folks, but the particular sound and CHARACTER they are looking for in the notes they are playing. OR, hope to fins some "new" notes and sounds, as was the case with Chris!

I suppose that many think this is superlative and really far out and out there abilities, but sometimes, it is rather simple ... but it is not "conventional" and it is not something that is taught in music school, and I seriously doubt that even Berklee can deal with it ... or any other music schools. The "tuning" things differently is very much an individual thing, and probably very difficult to compartmentalize as it serves a lot of different ideas and sounds. It is, more than likely, highly personal and is a taste that fits that person only, though you can learn to do it, but the feel might not be the same.

BTW, did anyone notice that it was Brandi playing the keyboards in that Ozric piece? A year later she is on the Bass!

To be frank, it wasn't the greatest line-up, and at least when I saw them, Brandi spent most of the gig pointing at the keys, then towards the ceiling in an effort to get herself heard.  In fact, the highlight of the show was when Ed came out on his own an did a tune by himself with just his keys/sequencer for backing.

Pinnacle of their live shows for me was the Pongmaster's in 2002, the one recorded for live release. My band at the time were fortunate enough to be (very low) on the bill for that one although no record survives of that appearance save one or two very pixelated phone shots and a thanks from John just before Dissolution. Kick Muck at that gig was literally hypersonic!

Talking of bass... and things that are difficult to play, I can't resist sharing this here:

https://youtu.be/ICqA5RULSYU?t=186" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ICqA5RULSYU?t=186

Not exactly prog, but what a virtuoso!

Hi,

(sorry to be "off topic" ... )

On a tour here in Portland, OR, I had alerted OT on their web site a month before about Portland venues being horrible about the sound of a band and literally ruining a keyboard sound ... heck, going back to 1995 at La Luna, Seaweed had a hard time. And wouldn't you know it, on this night in Portland, half the time the keyboards were not on, and it got so bad that Silas even walked out and if I remembered correctly Ed did a solo. Five minutes later I left. Disappointed that the band did not make sure they had the sound they should have had! 

Just sad. And probably very hard for anyone in a band to withstand that kind of quality and try to put out half way decent music!

Things hard to play ... I'm not a guitar player at all, though I plunk the bass with the worst of them all, but there are some that are interesting. The late Lothar Meid with AD2 had a habit of going his own way, but in the album "Wolf City" you can see how great he is in a transition between a couple of songs ... and of course in the "Dance of the Lemmings" album the very quiet and exploratory MM Soundtrack is excellent, with very few "touches" on the bass to ensure that the FEEL stayed alive and was NEVER taken to a "beat" ... it's not every day that you hear something like that. You don't need a "beat" to create music, and that is the only bad side of rock music for me. More freedom and experimentation away from a beat, would help define and create a lot more music.

Indeed!  I've been studying Squire's bass lines on CTTE since I was 16.  That's fifty years!  I still don't have it down yet! 

Hi,

I'm not sure my comment is quite right or not. At the time, Chris was known to have the bass wired for STEREO, which is something that most beginners do not know about until they get better rigs and gear.  Until that time it is all basic plug and play straight out and you get "one sound" per "note" ... later after graduation you learn more on your own, in general.

My thoughts were that he might help himself by tweaking the sound of the E note, and switch "channels" continually to get more out of the sound itself, making it look like it was more difficult to do manually, like maybe it extended the first note ever so slightly as it appears the 2nd note shows up on top of the first.

It's a thought in my head ... I can not say that this is the case at all, but these days with all the electronics, it is all much easier. On his special, he talks about tunings, and you gotta hand it to him ... for him it was more about the quality of the sound than it was just the notes, which of course might have altered some things, but I never noticed the band having an issue with his "different" tunings ... it felt like business as usual, so to speak.

Nowadays, with a 5 string and 6 string bass, I imagine that doing some of these things might be easier? I have no idea!

In terms of production, bass frequencies are usually thought of a "uni-directional" and so tend to be summed to mono. However there is a school of thought that states this is not really how we hear in the "real world", and indeed true stereo bass is more "live" sounding - best experienced with headphones since it's hard to set up without all kinds of havoc created by the room and speaker placement. 

Apart from that, with a player like Chris Squire you're not just hearing bass frequencies but rather the full range!

Hi,

Nice. Explained much better than I could. I do think that technology has changed a lot since then ... heck 50 years already? ... but the cleverness and talent of the musicians, is the part that we can not measure too well, when we hear some things that Chris did ... we don't know what he did, but we know it ain't magic ... I don't think that we could call it a trick either ... but having a "better" idea of his equipment, and what he had at the time, I'm inclined to believe that we can learn a lot more about how he played, than we can possibly EVER learn in school and just reading a score sheet and translating the notes. 

School/schools, tend to stick to the "general" side of music, and the more difficult materials are usually left for Graduate Studies and even then, I would suggest that 90% of them do not bother with rock music, or jazz or what I would consider "modern music" ... which for them all is more "classically minded" in its history ... and as much as we love it, we're not going to see KC even listed in that area for Graduate Studies ... which has a tendency to bring rock/jazz music into the mundane area, and not be considered worth studying.

This is the hard part of a Berklee or equivalent ... all you can get is note playing and time keeping ... because the rest is almost way too individually defined per artist and not something that has a general theory of relativity anywhere, except that person's mind!