I don't think all RPI albums are sung in Italian though. Is that a qualification?

I thought so . It makes sense. 

Well, not all Krautrock bands sing in German. Also, what if the non Italian bands sings in Italian? 

Maybe I'm wrong, like I said it's what I thought.

Raff, Lorenzo and Andrea could be of help here. And the collabs in the RPI team. 

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: ^Yes, unlike Krautrock or Canterbury like I mentioned in my first post.

Krautrock and Canterbury are bonafide musical genres. That's the difference. Most sites refer to Banco or PFM as symphonic prog. Area is jazz rock or avant-prog. I have no idea why this category exists here.

Can't say it belongs to RPI though.

siLLy puPPy wrote: Why isn't there an RPF (Rock Progresif Francais) or RPE (Rock Progressivo Español) or similar subs for Russian prog, Swedish prog etc?

I think that may be because the Italian scene is significant enough to have its own subgenre.

^ This. I had never heard of RPI before PA invented the genre. No other site ever used the term, and though others have begun to do so in recent years, it’s almost certainly only because PA set the precedent. (In some cases, PA is credited, in others implied, and in those where there is no obvious link to PA, simply because the term wasn’t used at all outside PA, that they are either directly or indirectly responsible.)

Within the RPI genre in PA you can hear Symphonic, Canterbury, RIO/Avant, Neo-Prog, and Jazz Rock/Fusion. The only thing that ties them together, really, is that they are Italian.

Now, that doesn’t mean I don’t agree with this genre, or have an issue with PA having invented it. Every genre is invented, because the genre label is always given retrospectively. That’s why there is always a problem trying to identify the first album or artist of any genre - because the genre simply didn’t exist when the music was first made. There is always a gap in time before the signifier and signified become linked.

I used to think RPI was a stupid invention, but I admit it has its uses - which is why it has become more widely accepted and used outside PA subsequently. It’s not a perfect genre, but very few are. In a way, I tend to think of RPI as more similar to prog, than to any particular genre. Just as prog is meta-genre, and can exist within any genre, without actually being a genre in itself, so is RPI a sort of narrower meta-genre concept. RPI is meta-genre to an extent, though, simply because it groups bands and artists by geography rather than genre, and includes bands and artists from other more widely accepted genres. The trick to accepting RPI, to my mind, is not seeing it as a genre. Otherwise it is just a really dumb label…. 🤪

The way I read that, you and I think the same way. Nothing is perfect, and I find meaning  and use in RPI in the same way as your Baroque example. The only thing there is, as you almost say, I would find the same meaning and use in a Spanish equivalent of RPI. It’s not that I think RPI shouldn’t exist, so much as it’s a little arbitrary that only it exists. I would love there to be an equivalent for other countries. I definitely think, eg, France could have it’s own “genre” in the same way.

^ Yes probably, it was more of a general response really. I was familiar with italian prog (but not the RPI-term), frequented this http://www.italianprog.com/welcome.htm" rel="nofollow - italian prog- site and searched for albums in record shops by all "the usual suspects" while in Italy during the early 00's. We already use terms like norwegian, dutch and spanish prog - they are all equally flawed and equally meaningful simultanously. The RPI-genre is really just about size - the sheer amount of relevant bands and artists. Yes, you could make a good argument about France having a genre for it self in similar ways, but it would be more difficult because of Magma/Zeuhl. And I do feel that as a "national scene" it's (even) more sprawling. 

I would not have included Magma/Zeuhl in a French equivalent of RPI, though. They are simply too different. Even though RPI contains some RIO/Avant, and jazz rock/fusion, it is still closer to the symphonic and Canterbury, than Magma/Zeuhl would be to the French equivalent. I’m not sure the French scene is that much more sprawling, either. And, just as with RPI as defined by PA, the modern French equivalent (if you were to create one) is still very much influenced by the classic period of the same. Nemo and Grandval, eg, have an obvious debt to bands like, eg again, Ange, Mona Lisa and Atoll.

I’m not suggesting we need to have a French equivalent of RPI in PA (I really don’t think we need any more genres than we already have), so much as pointing out how arbitrary RPI is, compared to some of the other genres. (It’s hardly the only arbitrary genre on PA, as eclectic and crossover are no better.)

And, anyway, where would you stop? I could easily make a case for there being a Finnish equivalent to RPI, as that country had quite a number of bands in the classic period that you could group together, and whose influence is still felt today. Just as with Italian bands and artists, not every Finnish band or artist would be considered the equivalent of RPI, but an impressive number would.

^Where do we stop? Right here where we are I suppose. We seem to agree about that as well. There are  finnish, swedish, norwegian, danish (nordic, scandinavian...), french, japanese scenes... or not. Depends on who you ask. But we don't need them as seperate genres on PA. I'm fine with RPI being the only exception. Much like Canterbury and Krautrock it felt like something special and unique back when I was digging deeper into all that wonderful, unheard and unknown music. For a period of time, before RPI I was trawling though records - for RPI... and I sort of knew what I was looking for. I still do/did. It's no more than my subjective opinion of course, but that's how I feel.

It is interesting to see this debate rear it’s head again.

It’s music, folks. Simply music.

Some Spanish or Argentinian (an Italian country if there was a sercond one on the planet) bands do sound Italian Symphonic enough to almost merit the RPI

siLLy puPPy wrote: No, because RPI isn't even a real subgenre. It's simply a special category for mostly symphonic prog from Italy. Personally i don't think it should exist and band's like Area certainly shouldn't be in it at all but this was established way before i ever found the site so it adds an interesting flavor to the site. You will notice that EVERY artist listed in that category is from Italy.

I opposed the RPI creation, because most of the bands were symphonic 

some bands were even withdrawn from other genres (Area being indeed the most shocking) to beef it up, but outside that major  Arreor error, I have no qualms about the rest of the bands in there. 

I mean, it's not like Deus Ex Machina, Stormy Six, Pierrot Lunaire, Saint Just or DFA are in RPI - so I can live with it.

Hrychu wrote: siLLy puPPy wrote: Why isn't there an RPF (Rock Progresif Francais) or RPE (Rock Progressivo Español) or similar subs for Russian prog, Swedish prog etc? I think that may be because the Italian scene is significant enough to have its own subgenre.

Nah!! It was mostly an ego thing - some non-italian collabs wanting to have it their way.

Even an Italian collab was originally opposed to its creation at first , but was lobbied away by love by one of them.

Indeed. Hence this quote from one of my recent(ish) reviews:

We all know that there is some overlap between subgenres, but RPI is a niche in which all bands have one thing in common: they are from Italy. Some great Italian bands can be found under Eclectic, though...

Yes RPI and Neo Prog could be classified has symphonic prog and modern symphonic prog. Sometimes I don't feel comfortable when it comes to evaluate if a band is in RPI category. He rely on instinct and not science...

The native language make it easier to decide, some RPI bands could be simply symphonic bands singing in Italian and it is possible on the other way around that non singing Italian symphonic bands sounds RPI. You have to work a lot with categories to know at the end that it' not "black and white". Or maybe we have invented the RPI category to save up some work to the symphonic team...

The reasons why this controversial subgenre was created are expressed in the introduction we wrote for it back in the day. Now you can disagree with the premises - and everyone has the right to do so - but you cannot say we did not try to explain our decision. If you bother to read that piece of writing, you'll also understand why Area was included, even though musically they are quite different from the majority of the bands included in RPI.

Personally, I couldn't care less if you decided to scrap the whole thing and dump all the bands in Symphonic or wherever you want to have them. All the bickering about subgenres, and the constant rehashing of the same topics, have turned me off not just this site, but the whole prog scene as well.

Anyway, a lot of RPI-inspired bands come from Japan, where the subgenre (or whatever it is) is still quite popular. Take this one for instance - even their name is Italian: http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1367" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1367

I think someone should make an RPI band and sing in Albanian. Let's see if it makes it on the site

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: There are non English Canterbury bands on here and non german Krautrock bands so why not non Italian RPI bands? I get the feeling there aren't any on here though.

Yes, this is one. Although wrongly listed as coming from Italy on PA, they're from Japan:

https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=6502" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=6502

Well, their Italian pronunciation is very rough...

From http://www.italianprog.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.italianprog.com/

I think such a thing is possible. Singing in Italian is not a precondition (Il Trono dei Ricordi sing in English). If such a band exists or will come into being, they probably come from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piana_degli_Albanesi" rel="nofollow - here . There may be found some former http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=74585" rel="nofollow - Allium members as well .

ERIS PLUVIA is classed as RPI and they sing in English.  Same with their related bands ANCIENT VEIL and NARROW PASS.  Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head but there may well be others.  Now, I personally don't consider their style to be RPI, and think they would fit better in prog folk or symphonic, but whatever  

mmmhhh!!!...

RPI is here to stay (I'd fight for it nowadays) , just like Eclectic (unfortunately ) or Crossover

these topics keep reoccuring and it's cyclical (the half-star ratings or multi-gentre tagging  issues should pop up again soon)

.

Now one can agree with every single word of this post without getting into a row about this sub-genre, or that sub-genre.

I love Italian culture, and John is absolutely right about this. I smiled when reading the spaghetti western bit, and am just about to put on some Leone for a couple of hours. Sheer heaven!

We can depend on Italian expert Andrea to find a non-Italian RPI band.  If these guys aren't Italian, then, Yes, there is such thing as a non-Italian RPI band.  Well, I vote yes. 

 

On the other hand, if they were misidentified as Italian, then it could be said that their RPI classification was an error.

 

I listened to the album. It sounds RPI to me. I own 300 RPI albums. Classic and Modern. 

That said, I would rate this album a two.  However, if the members must live in Italy and be Italian, then perhaps it is NOT RPI.  

Depends on the definition of RPI.

Lol. Well, there is "Krautrock" but I think there should be a better term. Not all German prog is Krautrock just like not all Italian prog is RPI. But my initial question was wondering how much all of that has to do with the country vs the sound. In my opinion if we are talking about a sound then the country's name should not be mentioned or implied. Therefore I think there should be other names for these subgenres or else not make it limited to having to be from one specific country. However, that's not say you can't say something like Swedish prog, American prog, South American prog, etc. The difference is that these aren't considered genres (or subgenres) and shouldn't be.