Which self-indulgent album is your favourite?
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Topic: Which self-indulgent album is your favourite?
Posted By: WJA-K
Subject: Which self-indulgent album is your favourite?
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 02:22
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A common theme involving prog - especially in the 70's - is that most acts fell into the trap of self-indulgence. This would be one of the main reasons for the rapid decline of prog in the second half of the seventies. I have to admit I don't hate most of these albums. On the contrary, I applaud the bands for trying to push the envelope. So this brings me to my question: What is your favourite self-indulgent album? And why? Mine is Focus III, a double album. I especially like the track Anonymous Two as is it packed with brilliant solos from all the members (considered needless noodling by many).
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Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 03:54
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probably Tales from Topo, but there are many-- Meddle, Passion Play, SRtS. What a glorious time for music. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Ronstein
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 04:08
| Mine is what I believe to be the original and best self-indulgent album of all time, Tubular Bells! |
Posted By: WJA-K
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 04:30
For Pink Floyd, I'd argue The Wall and The Final Cut are great contenders too!
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Atavachron wrote:Posted By: WJA-K
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 04:30
Great choice!
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Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 04:57
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If we're not including strictly prog albums, I would have to go with Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness by The Smashing Pumpkins. An extremely self-indulgent 2-hour record that, despite its pretentious nature, is an incredibly solid prog-influenced alt-rock record. Billy Corgan might have overextended his reach, but there are only a few songs on the album that I'd actually cut despite its length ------------- Take me down, to the underground Won't you take me down, to the underground Why oh why, there is no light And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd |
Posted By: Rick1
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 04:59
| Works Vol. 1 - not 'arf! |
Posted By: WJA-K
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 05:06
Mellon Collie counts for me! I agree it's heavily prog-influenced. That mellotron on the opener!
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 05:13
| Probably my fave piece of OTT self-indulgence has always been 'Relayer', to be honest... |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 05:16
Works for me too! My favourite ELP album. Alright? Not 'arf!  |
Posted By: Neu!mann
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 05:30
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"A frequent criticism at the time was of 'self indulgence'. In practice, when you let rip this is always a risk. In principle, to consider acting in accordance with one's musical sense-of-rightness as indulgent is a terrifying commentary upon the extent to which our culture has become aberrant in its values and out-of-touch with its innate humanity. Young musicians of the time who were self-indulgent were not, as far as my perception went, playing what was true for them but what they believed to be in fashion." --Robert Fripp, 1992 ------------- "we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini |
Posted By: WJA-K
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 05:33
You can't argue against Fripp :-)
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 05:36
| A Passion Play and Tales top my list, and I really love them. |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 06:11
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I back all of the albums suggested here but for "favorite" I'm gonna second the Focus III LP as it has steadily and continuously grown in my estimation since I first purchased it back in 1977. For example, I used to find most of it intolerable, despite absolutely upholding "Answers? Questions! Questions? Answers!" as one of my absolute favorite songs. (I adore Jan Akkerman.) Now I listen with reverence and awe through every song, even the two "Anonymous" pieces that I used to hate (precisely for the endless self-indulgent noodling and pseudo-cerebral form). So much of Neo Prog feels self-indulgent because the "epic" form feels so unnecessary or forced--as if the musicians decided, "Let's do a prog epic" instead of having a song/story idea that required an epic form in order to satisfy it's telling. BTW: Nice idea for a discussion thread! Kudos, man! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: WJA-K
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 06:35
Thank you! I like your points involving how many bands want to "do prog" nowadays and how this puts the 70's bands in a different light.
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 06:53
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Probably Atom Heart Mother. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 07:05
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when It comes to at least the title track of Atom Heart Mother, I would have to then say that it’s Ron Geesin’s self-indulgence, and what a glorious thing it is. From the classic era, I would mention Can’s Tago Mago, Magma’s double-album debut, MDK and others, Soft Machine’s Third and Tangerine Dream’s Zeit. In 90s Prog, Swans’ Soundtracks for the Blind (love this album) and Cardiacs’ Sing to God, and of the past decade, various Swans although Glowing Man is my favourite. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: WJA-K
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 07:32
Nice one! I love this one too.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:01
| I suppose any double album of prog could be considered self-indulgent, and with that in mind, I vote for Tales from Topographic Oceans. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:20
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Hi, Weird. Strange. Odd. I guess that Shakespeare is the most self indulgent of them all! Ohhh wait ... Mozart ... too many notes! Beethoven and Tchaikovsky ... too many instruments doing the same thing and also doing different things! Stravinsky ... why all the weirdness and changes? Tangerine Dream. Take the dreamer (EF) out and the music sounds machine-like, and not fluid! Oh, forgot the most self indulgent of all ... KLAUS SCHULZE. I guess that over 75 CD's of music is not enough!   ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:26
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Funny no one has mentioned Lamb Lies Down yet. I'm not sure I really get the label 'self indulgent'. Maybe Shatner's The Transformed Man. Pretty self indulgent to think he was worthy of an album. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: WJA-K
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:31
Self indulgence is something I see a lot when I read about prog. Just like the term dinosaurs. Loaded terms to dismiss the entire 70's prog scene. I indeed would have expected the Lamb as well. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:34
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It's very rare that the popular music marketplace countenances 'doing what you like.' as being viable or even lucrative. I think the late 60's and early 70's were a miraculous conflation of consumer sovereignty begetting artistic freedom that we will never experience again. There was a fleeting time when music was an indivisible whole i.e. before marketing foisted the phony brand wars upon us where Rock, Jazz, Blues, Funk, Country, Soul, Classical et al became conflated with social class. I'd love to be proven wrong about that. ------------- 
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:47
The term "self indulgent" is usually used by those who dislike the genre rather than those who do.
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:52
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True, but isn't it supposed to be a reflection of the artist and their motivation (inspiration?) for doing a recording? Hence SELF indulgent. Otherwise it would be FAN indulgent or MONEY indulgent. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: WJA-K
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 09:12
Many reviews here mention the term self indulgent. By people who like the genre
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 10:03
Define indulgent or self-indulgent. 1- mindlessly-long soloing in jam bands records 2- mindless/uninteresting concept drowned out in a sea of overstretched ideas (Tubular bells and other Oldfield albums) 3- artistes repeating their usual formula for 3586th time in a row (then TFK, Transatlantic and Steven Wilson are prime culprits, despite the KS/TD 50 years carreer) 4- any combinations (or all) of the above Personally, I find that jazz has a lot more indulgent albums then in prog ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 10:30
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Tales Lamb War of the Worlds BSS
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 13:47
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Too many to mention, even I don't think of them as "self-indulgent" - but some over the top, yes, like Thick as a Brick.
As I see it, the explanation is way more complex than that.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Duddick
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 13:56
What is SRtS? I’ve tried and can’t work out what it’s an acronym for?
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 14:39
right, pretty much so ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 15:58
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Thanks to José for the image. (Yeah, I lifted it from a Vinyl Forum post.)  ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 29 2022 at 19:51
| I mean this in the nicest possible ways, but the last few albums by Nightwish fit the bill for me |
Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 02:09
I spent a good hour or two of research trying to find what it's an acronym for, and I'm still empty-handed ------------- Take me down, to the underground Won't you take me down, to the underground Why oh why, there is no light And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 02:12
SRtS?!
I can't figure it out either. I bet it's something obvious and famous, too. |
Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 02:15
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I literally looked up all the major 70s prog bands on Wikipedia and there's seriously nothing with that abbreviation, lol ------------- Take me down, to the underground Won't you take me down, to the underground Why oh why, there is no light And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 02:20
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Oh come on people get with it, I didn't add the 't' to the Song Remains the Same...and only ProgRelated here. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 02:23
Moby Dick and Dazed & Confused are definitely self indulgent indeed.
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Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 03:04
Not gonna lie, I definitely wouldn't have gotten that unless you said it. I think it was because I was expecting it to be another full-fledged prog band like the others ------------- Take me down, to the underground Won't you take me down, to the underground Why oh why, there is no light And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 03:13
So is he saying that the Golden Era of Prog was young musicians playing 'self-indulgent' music they didn't believe in just because it was fashionable? That's what I understand from it anyway, and in my idealistic mind I'd like to believe that wasn't true much of the time. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Hugh Manatee
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 16:49
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I was wondering about what qualifies as "self indulgent" and sort of decided that any music that is recorded for the sake of artistic expression rather than a concern for commercial considerations would fit the bill. Under those circumstances that would apply to just about any thing that can be categorized as progressive music. ------------- I should have been a pair of ragged claws Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 30 2022 at 17:06
Maybe, but I took it as him saying it wasn't the progressive artists by definition that were being indulgent, but rather it was the ones taking the easier & quicker way to making a living. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 31 2022 at 20:25
| I guess Rick Wakeman's Myths and Legends of King Arthur would fit the bill... that one would be my favourite, easily. I find it weird I have not seen him in this discussion... nor ELP for that matter, unless I passed them by. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: March 31 2022 at 20:30
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: March 31 2022 at 20:34
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Also, if an album is described as “self indulgent”, that usually makes me more interested in hearing it, not less. Something about a musician going off the deep end without a road map and trying something beyond their reach is really appealing to me. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 31 2022 at 23:37
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Self-endulgent? Playing with yourself and hopefully conjuring up something interesting. Can of course also be a negative, where the accolade simply means X artist staring way too deep into the more boring parts of their belly-button. Can work both ways. Anyhoo Atom Heart Mother, The Lamb and X could all be described as such..and I love them all. I will say this though. More often than not it’s the actual music that ends up turning me off. Not necessarily the deeper thought or indeed ideas behind. Put another way: I love Dave Grohl. Love his drumming and his whole persona. Seems like such a nice guy and furthermore knows a thing or two about rock music. In fact he tends to say all the right things. He even have some deeper thought running through some of lyrical content which I rather like…but the music and delivery simply falls flat on it’s face to me. Same thing with Danish rock semi-deity Tim Christensen who says all the right things and has a multitude of seriously interesting ideas and influences from all over the map…he even plays a mean guitar…yet musically I’m bored out of my mind. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 01 2022 at 02:36
I feel exactly this way about Brian Eno, Ornette Coleman's Harmolodics and much of Miles Davis' fusion material -------------
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Posted By: Aging Connoisseur
Date Posted: April 02 2022 at 22:27
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Posted By: Aging Connoisseur
Date Posted: April 02 2022 at 22:30
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 02 2022 at 23:02
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2014%2F03%2F09%2Fmovies%2Fpeabodys-improbable-history-inspired-a-new-movie.html&psig=AOvVaw3nUupKygQk5mBIL7QFyeUG&ust=1649048537231000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCPDCmdSO9_YCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE" rel="nofollow">
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 03 2022 at 12:43
...thus be it ever in rock & roll! Examples of "follow the leader" abound in rock history, including prog. However, I view indulgence in prog more a result of "pushing the envelope" and experimenting with newfound skills & instruments. Steve Howe acknowledged being criticized for playing guitar "too fast" on the LP "Relayer," and his response was "It makes me want to play even faster!" I think the explosion of double albums in the early 1970s was the height of prog indulgence....TFTO is the textbook example, but I'd put "The Lamb" in the pile as well. For all their warts, I quite love them! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 03 2022 at 15:11
And taking this even further with triple albums... for example, Godley & Creme - Consequences. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: April 06 2022 at 00:51
They're the two I really love. I seem to out of synch with most others who prefer TAAB and CTTE.
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: April 09 2022 at 21:39
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Todd Rungren: A Wizard A True Star always seemed self-indulgent. I love it anyway. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: April 18 2022 at 12:44
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Jon Anderson's Olias of Sunhillow. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: May 12 2022 at 03:55
I'd argue that 'Pros and Cons of Hitch-hiking' is one of the most self indulgent albums I've ever heard - I'm generally a fan of Waters' output whether solo, or his Floyd era stuff, but Pros and Cons I still cannot work out what it's supposed to be about - no wonder it was rejected by the rest of the band when they chose The Wall instead. ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: Ronstein
Date Posted: May 12 2022 at 08:27
It's a dream, so it's not supposed to make sense, really.
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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: May 13 2022 at 05:58
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If we have a "people-oriented" nature, being self-indulgent would mean that we refuse to sacrifice our social life for any planned task. If we're "task-oriented", being self-indulgent would mean that we won't change our planned goal esp for more social/financial power. So being self-indulgent or not depends on the temper, and I'm not going to study which album would have band members forcing themlseves into doing what they don't really want, in oder not to "self-indulge" ... (If this does ever makes sense !?) ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: May 13 2022 at 09:37
| Tales and Passion Play tie for 1st. Works I would be next. I adore all three. |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: May 15 2022 at 08:52
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I never understood the criticism that a record was self indulgent. Usually that term was used by snide, dismissive critics with a chip on their shoulders (and a giant stick up their ass) Any "art" can be and frequently is self indulgent. I applaud artists for staying true to their art. ------------- We all dwell in an amber subdomain, amber subdomain, amber subdomain. My face IS a maserati |
Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: May 19 2022 at 11:37
| Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar could probably be described as 'self-indulgent' and I love it. So I guess I'll vote for that. |
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: August 22 2022 at 00:09
Ooh ooh Yes ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: RockHound
Date Posted: August 22 2022 at 13:47
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I have trouble thinking of any kind of published work as self-indulgent. It makes no sense. Perhaps if nobody at all buys or uses the work it could be called self-indulgent. That’s clearly not the case for what is being discussed, especially since many of these works are loved by many and have sold like hotcakes. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 22 2022 at 15:44
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**Have to use quick reply box...the 'post reply' button does not work for me. Has anyone reported this yet as well as the other problems people are having....??? ** I always thought Rundgren's early solo lps are a bit self indulgent but I still love Wizard, Todd, and Something- anything.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 22 2022 at 17:14
That's a good point, self-indulgent suggests the artist had little pride in their work or thought toward the listener. But in fact most releases the artist does deems worthy (and therefore not self-indulgent). Also it depends--- was Pink Floyd self-indulgent? What about Prince? Tangerine Dream? Snoop Dog? I think the answer is Yes to all. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Hugh Manatee
Date Posted: August 22 2022 at 17:43
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I personally would say that I appreciate a "self indulgent" album more than any cynical exercise in marketing that merely exists to exploit a musical trend. That's not to say that I like every "self indulgent" album that has ever been released, but somehow the artists intentions do make a difference to my listening experience. The prime example of this for me is "Trout Mask Replica". Although I don't listen to the album itself, I am fascinated by and do appreciate the "philosophy" behind its production. ------------- I should have been a pair of ragged claws Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |