Nogbad_The_Bad wrote: Far be it for me to suggest artistic editing but the main culprit for me is The Wall which has about 1 albums worth of good material. Ummagumma could also have been just the live album.

 

The live out-takes from the Ummagumma sessions plus other material they were playing at the time could easily have boosted it back up to completely and very very good double live lp… 

Incantations by Mike Oldfield has some lovely themes but is just padded out too much- the live version on Exposed covers most of those theme and represents the album more powerfully over 2 sides than the original does.

I'm not going to mention the obvious one...

I have to respectfully disagree on both of those. The Wall is (IMHO) the greatest album ever made and the live stuff from Ummagumma should have been a standalone album with just the studio stuff left on Ummagumma, but adding Embryo and Careful With That Axe Eugene.

I was going to suggest Incantations myself, but I do love it just the way it is.

Would the obvious one involve a British band known for infighting, multiple line ups, court cases & curries on keyboards?

If you are suggesting the Ummagumma live material should have been a double album without any of the studio solo stuff I 100% agree with you.

Great album but have to agree.

While it could be a single album if you tried I think it would be tough.

TFTO?

Yep.. I think others have got there.. didn't think it would take long

Here's my opinion on how I would have done it. Make the live album a double. I know they only had maybe three studio albums out at the time but they could have done some improv stuff and maybe even a cover tune. Then make the studio stuff also a double but have one whole side for each musician. Yeah, it would have been even more self indulgent but so what. You only live once. Plus ELP did it. :P So, Ummagumma in my opinion should at least have been a triple album imo if they were going to do part live and part studio. Yessongs was a triple and that's only from three studio albums worth of material(not counting the Rick Wakeman solo album bits). 

GoliathTMV wrote: The only time it's not a good excuse is if you want to shoot the cover of Love Beach.

 

Ive got my air rifle ready and the album propped up amongst the rhubarb....

There is very little double studio albums that deserves the double disc treatment.

The first exception would be Electric Ladyland, and maybe Quadrophenia second.

Four Letter Monday Afternoon, London Calling, Chicago Transit Authority  and the Hair OST are also alongst the ones that should remain double

GoliathTMV wrote: You dissing C'est La Vie and Pirates?

 

Hmm.. ok, maybe i'd put Pirates on side 2 rather than have a blank side but the rest of the album is not for me

Honestly with most of the big double albums I see no reason to cut them down. They're often far more interesting as doubles, even if they're imperfect. 

I agree with the white album and snow but not so much Physical Graffiti. Really no weak material on that Zeppelin album imo. With tales it's really parts that sort of drag on a bit. I really like the ancient though which many people can't appreciate or just don't like it for whateve reason. Snow definitely should have been a single. Even the flower kings weren't always that good with doubles. Double albums are tricky and most of the time they don't work all the way through.

The first LP is fantastic, but sides 3 and 4 are mostly free improvisation and noises.

BTW, I disagree with the person who mentionned SM's Third album. All tracks are very different but essential, but yeah, some could use some time trimmings, but never enough to achieve the one-disc duration

dougmcauliffe wrote: Probably most Neal Morse albums

 

Those should be cut to a zero-disc affair, juste like anything to do with Stolt.

Sacro_Porgo wrote: I disagree with Lamb. If you cut out all the noodly instrumental bits you'd still have 3 sides worth of essential material. At that point either cut a neat engraving on side 4 or fill out the second disc with leftover noodling, which they did. Besides, I like the noodling! It's pleasant! lol Honestly with most of the big double albums I see no reason to cut them down. They're often far more interesting as doubles, even if they're imperfect.

You haven't got major intrumental passages on The Lamb, because it's soooooooooo bloody wordy. Sure the easiest time-cut is Silent Sorrows to operate, but Waiting Room is amazing and shows a facet of the band unseenheard elsewhere....

Storyline considerations set aside, very few tracks on the second disc are actually good. Only the excellent Lamia and Slipperman, with the afore-mentionned Waiting Room are indispensible (and not just IMHO)... Most of the side 4 is limit even annoying. FTM, if it's possible to compile one really good Genesis album worthy of the rest of the 70 - 77 albums, with the non-selected ones you can make their weakest from 69 - 80 period. OK, I'm exagerating slightly on the last point, but you get the idea

I always considered that to be an ideal solution to the crashing excess of Side Three, and the excellent (although redundant) Side Four.  

ELP's Works Volumes 1 and 2 could probably have been condensed down to this far more palatable offering:

As mentioned by other posters, what little bounty can be salvaged from the wreck that is Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes would struggle to fill out a 40 minute vinyl album

Electric Landlady Ladyland by Jimi Hendrix could have used a 'bouncer' of sorts i.e. someone with the cohones to eject the liggers, pushers, hangers on and starf.u.ckers from the premises

The Beatles so-called White Album could be shorn of at least 11 tracks and still remain 'patchy'

Cream's Wheels of Fire would have made a distinctly ho-hum single album (but you do get two compositions by the neglected genius that was Mike Taylor by way of mitigation)

Both the Fragile and the Downward Spiral by Nine Inch Nails could have been halved and not suffered any major loss in quality (Ditto Sandinista by the Clash and Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me by the Cure)

and finally, Joe's Garage Acts I -II & III by Frank Zappa proves if nothing else, that you don't need a triple garage to house an unwanted '57 King Midget Model III

I still disagree. Love every actual song on the second disc, not just for the storyline. I'm pretty easy to please though with Genesis. I even like Whodunnit!

Point, set & match

cstack3 wrote: When "Tales" first came out, I'd listen to Side One, flip the disc, listen to Side Two, and then, exhausted on Yes, would move on to another selection.   I always considered that to be an ideal solution to the crashing excess of Side Three, and the excellent (although redundant) Side Four.   Alternatively, Side One and Side Four might be nice.  Trying to edit Tales would be a lifetime task.

Nah, just use a big well-sharpened axe and cut anywghere in tracks 2 & 4... It's not like Jon's mumbo-jumbo means anything, so you won't miss anything if amputated of two legs and the left arm.

 

I don't consider Wheels of Fire to be a double album, but a single album with a bonus disc of live material.

 

 

Sometimes even free stuff is overpriced

Hi,

(I have no issues with a single album that came out as a double. Love them all, regardless!)

I think the bigger issue is that THE WALL was actually longer and some of the material that got cut off was the stuff about WW2 which was used in THE FINAL CUT ... when we saw the first test of THE WALL, it was almost 20 minutes longer, and I think that some of that stuff ended up in the next album, and one of the videos had the footage, but it looks like it was altered and updated.

No one, not even PF, specially Roger, has ever said anything about this ... but from a film perspective there are massive cuts and changes in ideas and thoughts that take place in the first album (not as much the 2nd) that makes the story come off ... haphazard ... and my take is that it ends up confusing folks ... it's like editing Moby Dick or Crime and Punishment ... you really think that you made it better? Hint: ... it wouldn't be in schools if it were so!

THAT ALBUM IS JUST ABOUT PERFECT. What two songs would you cut?

Trout Mask Replica!

Blonde on Blonde somehow loses its steam dut to its length (I can easily do without "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands"). Another obvious candidate would be Exile on Main Street, but maybe that's also because I don't generally like that album very much.

Many double albums are also concept albums, so the narrative would be affected. I think f.e. that Lamb, The Wall, Tommy and Quadrophenia make perfect sense as double albums.

Some 90's CD albums are way too long despite being released as a single CD (some of them were released as double LP's because the music couldn't be squeezed into one LP without a loss of sound quality).

All of you guys are wrong. The mere idea is ludicrous. It is entirely up to the artist what to put on an album. How would you feel if you made a double album and someone suggested you should leave out half of the stuff? You all have the wrong attitude. Learn from this Japanese author:

“In my young days I praised the master whose pictures I liked, but as my judgment matured I praised myself for liking what the masters had chosen to have me like.”
― Kakuzō Okakura, The Book of Tea

Okakura speaks of pictures, but the same attitude extends to all arts.

Of those mentioned

Mike Oldfield - Incantations. Perfect as it is . I wouldn't change anything and easily a 'desert island disc'.

Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. In CD terms the first disc is easily the most inspired prog rock ever recorded bar none . The second disc wanders off all over the place and just feels like the 'aftershow' for me although the track It does give the album a proper end. I would just leave it as it is but use the skip button on Disc Two for a few tracks ie The Waiting Room maybe.

Yes - Tales From Topographic Oceans. 'Perfect' as it is, totally uninspired long winded drivel that started the whole prog backlash. But what can you do with it? Nothing really . You are allowed to either love or hate it is as it is.

ELP - Works Volume One and Two. There was nearly enough for a group album and 3 solo albums which is what the band had intended. Originally conceived to be a box set it instead became the next couple of ELP albums and along with the disastrous associated tour sunk the band totally. I would just unpick it and go back to the original idea that was intended although all the albums would be a bit on the short side. Technically the tracks Brain Salad Surgery and When the Apple Blossom Blooms just don't belong as they were part of the 1973 Brain Salad Surgery sessions. I prefer to listen to them as part of the Sony reissue of Brain Salad Surgery where they are bonus add ons.

Is it inconceivable that even some of our favourite artists have their 'bad days at the office' just like the rest of us?

You are missing the point. Let me give another quote out of Okakura's book:

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/25563.Kakuz_Okakura" rel="nofollow -

I may be one of the few that prefer the studio disc of Ummagumma over the live one. I would have rather had each member extend their studio portion to an entire side of the disc.

I think a lot of problems with double discs is the time involved to devote to a sincere, focused listen. Sometimes it's better to listen to just one of the discs and save the second one for a week later and treat each disc as a separate album. One could use the analogy of a one-hour television show that's left hanging, to be continued for the airing of part 2 the following week. Obviously, that practice goes against the artist's intentions of both discs being a whole for concept albums. 

In the past, I believe I have opined that The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and The Wall would have been better as shorter albums. I feel different about those two now. I think the reason I do is that I have watched a couple reaction videos on YouTube from newbies listening to these the first time and their reactions reminded me of the reactions I had the first time I listened to them when I was a teenager. They have both regained my respect after seeing a multi-generational gap share a common appreciation for prog rock.

Hi,

Thank you ... I'm just totally aghast as to how someone can stand here and tell an artist how, when, they should go to the bathroom, or write anything.

but in the end, all you and I are seeing id the result of a top ten hit society ... all they know seems to have to be short and sweet ... no meat in it ... and the "meanings" of course, told in the lyrics so no one has to do "homework" like you and I did in college ... which sometimes is all I think these folks are rejecting! (Who knows ... who really knows?)

 

 

 

It's just a game. The artists can do what they want, and we can say, we could have enjoyed it more if it was a single album. Nothing wrong with that.

I just wrote elsewhere that the first album of Tago Mago would have qualified for my "best album of all time" on its own (not quite sure whether it had won but anyway). Not that the second album shouldn't be there, but I do think it has quite a bit less to offer. It's spontaneous allright, but some of it feels a bit childish to me. Not that that's even necessarily a bad thing, but when wedded to one of the best albums of all time? Obviously I can listen to the first one 50 times for every time I listen to the second one, which is fair enough. No damage done then.

About half of Godley & Creme's Consequences has a strange comedy piece that, well, doesn't really cut the mustard for me, but there's surely one album of great music on it, maybe one album plus a bit (the whole thing originally was 3 LPs).

Oh, and Motorpsycho's Death Defying Unicorn has some marvellous music, but I don't care much for the story behind it and find some material dispensable for my listening pleasure, rather it drags a bit when listened over the full time.  

It's a catch 22, I don't want listeners having a say in what the artists produces, the artist should do what the their muse directs them to. Of course if they find an audience for this art that's terrific. If they want to be commercially successful they are likely going to need to compromise that vision. 

Once its in the hands of the listener they have the license to use it as they see fit, if they want to cut out tracks, that's their right. The artist can complain about their art being ruined but listeners should similarly listen to what they like.

I can probably create one good Genesis album by combining 4 of their albums.

Rick1 wrote: We forget the technology of record making.  You couldn't make a three sided album.  If the band committed to a double then that would be that - sparse material would need to be expanded.  As Wakeman once observed, 20 minutes provided a form of quality control (that disappeared with the advent of the CD).  None of these albums are 'bad' for that reason.  BTW, go and listen to Rush or something if you are moaning about Soft Machine's 'Third'.

he did !!

http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/johnny-winter/second-winter/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/johnny-winter/second-winter/

I spend a lot of my hard earned money on music, which makes me a consumer, so I'm perfectly entitled to criticize or praise an artist's output as I see fit (within the bounds of slander and defamation legislation). If I'm paying someone's wages I want a bang for my buck and certainly don't appreciate being lectured to by credulous hippy casualties like you and BaldFriede. Learn to deal with that attitude at your leisure pilgrims.

I will have to agree with the Lemming's leap here. This isn't about some poor starving performers "suffering for their art". In most cases, performers releasing double or triple albums have reached a level of success where they can get away with such multi-album sets. Many of these releases are bloated and pretentious and should rightly be poked by critics, whether national reviewers or little ol' posters on PA who have to pay a premium for the added crap.

I recall Rick Wakeman being so upset at the ridiculous preponderance of pretension that surrounded TFTO that he quit Yes altogether. Double the album, double the scrutiny. 

I speak as an artist who has been affected by this. You may remember that we recorded a quadruple album last year. The record company does however not want that and wants us to split it up into four single albums, which we absolutely reject. The music only makes sense as a whole, and if someone would buy only one or two of the albums the intended effect would be totally ruined. We may finally have to publish it ourselves, but we don't want another album with only 500 copies (as our first two), we want it to be an unlimited edition, and this requires money we don't have. And I totally refuse to be lectured by incredulous business capitalist casualties like you.

Grumpyprogfan wrote: ^What is the name of your band? Why not release the quad for free streaming?

Our band is usually called Bald Angels, but for this project we changed the name of the band to Mother Gaia. It is a family project: My wife (same-sex marriage) Jeanine, her sister Beatrice, our kids Alice and Dorothy and me. You can read all about this very ambitious project of us in this thread:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114717" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114717

With them being restaurateurs, it makes the 'starving artist' posturing particularly ironic 

I doubt anyone would want to tell the artists what to do or not. It should be up to the artists how to release their music in the end of course, but that doesn't mean that I as a listener can't have my own view about whether it was a good idea to release a double album or not. Remember, it is just a view. The artists may have a different opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It's like writing a negative review also means that the artists should go change their album accordingly. I doubt many artists would want to do that.

 

I was going to mention this album. Side 1 and Side 6 together would make an awesome album even though the concept of the album would be ruined. But it was actually the comedy section that attracted me to the album in the first place. However, unlike music, comedy can only be listened to a few times before it gets stale, so it is only the first and last side that maintains interest for me.

 

 

"Incredulous business capitalist casualties like you." 

The obvious reply here would be that although I am sure your current music is utterly exquisite and beyond the realm of the listening capabilities of a "business capitalist casualty" such as myself, a 4 record set, by its very nature, would be considered overblown and pretentious by most reviewers and we commoners. How dare a record company consider the marketability of a 4 record set! Perhaps, just perhaps, the fact that not even high-volume superstars who have multiple gold and platinum albums very rarely are allowed the luxury of a quadruple album, would give one pause in their list of demands. 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that artist's visions should be compromised by money-minded labels. I think people are only saying that, hypothetically, if certain double albums had been released as single albums, those people would have enjoyed them more. The good news for everyone is that in the age of mp3s and streaming, the artist can release any length of album they feel necessary to fully realize their vision, and the consumer can decide not to listen to any songs they don't like. I think as an artist you just have to have faith that many of your fans will stick with you through the entire project and not decide to skip half the album. Personally I don't like skipping songs or editing albums, not so much out of respect for the artist as I simply feel I'm cheating myself if I just edit out my least favorite bits. The listening experience doesn't really feel complete if I do that. So I'll either listen through tracks I don't as much and hopefully grow to like them better, or I simply won't listen to that album very often (e.g. Rush's Roll The Bones).

Things never change if no one tries to change them. Didn't box sets of classical pieces and operas used to sell well? I certainly see enough used ones at Goodwill to assume they were once commercially viable.

Just to make it clear: "Incredulous business capitalist casualties like you" was directed at Exitthelemming because he called me and Jean (though he said I and BaldFriede, but we are used to being confused with each other) "credulous hippy casualties".

Apologies for getting you both confused. I previously referred to you as restaurateurs as I didn't realise the enterprise must be a 'not for profit' soup kitchen. It appears that in your befuddled world you conflate consumers who purchase art and provide artists with a living, with capitalists. That's pitiful.

But that's totally different, isn't it? The record company is a business that runs by the rules of business. They have to make a living, too. They don't make an artistic assessment, they ask themselves, will we more likely earn or lose money if we sell this as quadruple album. Their assessment that they have an all too good chance of losing money with the quadruple and their chances of earning money are better if they release them one by one may well be correct, even if they admitted that from an artistic point of view you are right. But that's not the game they play. And the game we play here is different still, at least as far as I'm concerned. Even if you got your quadruple released and some people loved it to pieces as it is, what's wrong with somebody else writing "I could well do without half of it" if they just think so? If you as an artist put out your work in public, you've got to live with people saying what they think, even if it doesn't flatter you.

Much as I love this album from 1980, especially as Francis Monkman's swansong with the group:

...even at the time http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=5854" rel="nofollow - Sky 2 seemed to have some padding (solo guitar, solo harpsichord, Tristan's percussion piece, Herbie at the piano) and at least in Australia was originally issued as a 2LP set at a 1LP price ($9.99).

Perhaps:

1. Fifo: (17:05)
a) Fifo - 6:44
b) Adagio - 2:29
c) Scherzo - 4:19
d) Watching the Aeroplanes - 3:33

2. Sahara (6:56)

3. Toccata (4:42)

4. Hotta (7:46)

5. Scipio (12:09)

6. Vivaldi (4:03)

No Dance Of the Little Fairies then? 

Yeah I do like that album but I think you make a fair point. It did go a bit like ELP Works One album. Too much solo bits and pieces that were needless. The tracks you mention are the best ones , especially Fifo that was written by Monkman and is a rather overlooked masterpiece imo.

So we're dropping the final track of Physical Graffiti?

moshkito wrote: ... and my take is that it ends up confusing folks ... it's like editing Moby Dick or Crime and Punishment ... you really think that you made it better?

Depends. Are we talking Melville or Bonham?

Hi,

BIZARRE. 

No one goes around saying that Beethoven has too much padding, and so does Stravinsky. And folks, today, many times saying this about rock music, are missing the point, specially when the "padding" is more of a FEELING about how one goes through those moments in time, something that classical musicians have been doing for hundreds of years, and now ... these rock audiences think they know and feel the music better than its creator ... and the folks in that audience do not have the courage to get up on the stage and do their own piece of music and get a similar criticism.

"SEEING" what the passages are about is a problem, since these are about you using your imagination, and HONESTLY, the folks that do not like these passages ... and many are phenomenal ... are the ones that want the lyrics to tell them what this is all about.

I just find the whole thing really disrespectful of what "progressive" music has been about for 50+ years which also included INTROVERTED moments in the music ... which for my hearing, was an extension of some of the extended jams that you heard in many places like the Fillmore or UFO (for example) but have long been forgotten.

ALL of IT, is a part of the music ... and I find it sad to see an artist criticized for it ... when the problem is OUR OWN INABILITY TO FIND WHAT THE TRUTH IN THE MUSIC IS ... as it has no "lyrics" to tell us! Too many here, think the only truth HAS TO BE the lyrics TELLING YOU what it is all about Alfie!

I always find this hilarious, because even on my first listen to TFTO at 19 or 20 years old, it was never exhausting. It was just lots of YES, and I like every noise YES makes as a unit, so this is like a musical equivalent of a YES BUFFET for my ears, padding and all, lol.

Editing isn't bad when you know the parts! I'm biased because my ears are so tuned to this band I know what they're doing, lol. 

With that said even I wouldn't mind seeing how it could be condensed down to a single disc.

I like you. You also have the guts to speak your mind about tracks like Whodunnit when some people on this site will crucify you for it! I also agree with you about The Lamb.

I still disagree. Love every actual song on the second disc, not just for the storyline. I'm pretty easy to please though with Genesis. I even like Whodunnit!

I like you. You also have the guts to speak your mind about tracks like Whodunnit, full well knowing some people on this site would crucify you for it! I also agree about The Lamb.

Thank you

The artist's intention is not sacred. As an artist you can learn from the opinions of others. Sometimes, fair enough, people don't get what the artists have done. Sometimes though, artists learn that in order to better present their core idea and inspiration, some stuff around it is better cut, or changed. There are enough artists who admit that they have learnt from criticism, and one thing that quite a number have learnt, is to distinguish between a worthwhile core and superfluous self-indulgent stuff they used to put around it.

I'm not saying that the one who criticises is always right. Hell, they may be wrong more often than not. Also, the authority is the artist, so the artist can say "sod it" and not change a thing. Fair enough. But still, there is development and learning through criticism, and shutting down the criticism won't make the world of music a better place.     

Tales From Topographic Oceans is perfect as is. Leave it alone. People don't say anything about Incantations or Soft Machine 3. Or Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven.

Now Spock's Beard Snow could use some editing!!! And I'm a Neal Morse fan but...

Find it interesting that there so many posts on this thread 

In respect of Sandinista I recall an interview with Joe Strummer when he suggested that people buy the (triple) album then made their own  album by taping their favourite tracks on to a cassette . Sandinista was priced quite low . 

Can see that 'Tales from the Topographic Oceans' and 'Incantations' have their padding but just don't know how I  would turn them into single albums. And isn't part of the appeal of Prog is  that artists would not be afraid to perform long tracks and not be confined to standard songs lengths ? And have got used to them the lengths they are. 

Off topic, but it would probably be even more accurate to say Warner Bros. released albums without Zappa's permission. Didn't know about Skylarking, though I do like that album.

Hi,

Then the definition of an artist just went out the window.

Being an "artist" means that your "vision" is strictly yours and an individual thing ... no one else can do Picasso. No one else can do Stravinsky ... no one else can do __________________ (whoever!) ... and that is what the history of the arts has been about.

The artist's intention, is SACRED to himself/herself, since it is the SOURCE of their work.

At that point, the discussion and opinions of others, are just that ... and many times they have NOTHING to do with your INNER VISION that is defining what you see and write, paint or compose ... you must understand that the gestation period in trying to define/understand the opinions of others is the biggest offense to your inner/intuitive streak ... and you "art" is dependent on your ability to translate that into a form that is (somewhat) clear for us ... and the audience ... pardon me ... be damned.

You would never have a Rite of Spring. Or a Guernica. Or Debussy ... if you had taken the step of listening to the critics and the opinions of others.

I have had the luck/chance of being around many well known literary names in my young days, and let me tell you ... that they would bury you quickly ... specially Hemingway!

Lewian wrote: ... Sometimes, fair enough, people don't get what the artists have done. Sometimes though, artists learn that in order to better present their core idea and inspiration, some stuff around it is better cut, or changed. There are enough artists who admit that they have learnt from criticism, and one thing that quite a number have learnt, is to distinguish between a worthwhile core and superfluous self-indulgent stuff they used to put around it. ...

History of their arts and forms will show if they are worthy of the title "artist" ... because changing midstream fro your inner vision to an idea that came from the outside, changes everything you do ... and creates an eventual "battle" between what you see and what folks are suggesting you need to look at.

Lewian ... I tell you ... I see blue ... even if you think it's purple. I have to write for that blue, not your "purple" ... and you have to see that in what an "artist" is and does, or he/she is just a hacker and another pop fan!

Lewian wrote: ... I'm not saying that the one who criticises is always right.  ...

The one who criticizes is the one that can rarely "see" things .. and this was one of the difficult things in interpreting Jim Morrison and a lot of his lyrics ... as time went by, folks wanted less and less of his MOVIE LYRICS and more of inane and stupid rock'n'roll lyrics ... and for many artists who are so dependent on THEIR VISION ... this is tough ... and will cause inner issues of doubt within your inner self, but if you trust your inner vision, it will continually come alive and continue, and it did ... all the way to RIDERS ON THE STORM.

When that album came out, there were folks, already. upset that the lyrics in this album were getting too far out ... and only LA WOMAN was more like it ... a man's song! Such an image for the males in the progressive mold of music!