You are a numbers guy, aren't you ?

Giving an album "Medium quality of the songs: 7,875" makes me wonder I've been overlooking  something ermm  important.

First Utterance is a great album but at the moment in my ranking there are four

records that separate all the others and to which I'd give 6 stars: three of the VdGG and Rock Bottom.

But there are still many albums among the ones I know that I have to listen to and evaluate well, and then others that I must listen for the first time: my musical knowledge is still not as wide as yours.

Numbers and average quality of the songs help me to to give a balanced numerical rating, as fair as possible, so as to create a certain order, but the final rating I give to an album depends not only on the average quality of the songs but on the whole of the record.

Catcher10 wrote: WYWH is brilliant, and Aqualung should be head and shoulders over TAAB.

 

Agree with the first comment but not with second.

Wish You Were Here is such a beautiful album . Rick's synths are like bathing in warm sunshine and the lyrics mean something. Title track may be my very favorite song of all time (close run thing with Solsbury Hill)

I love the title track for Aqualung but I wish they had made that longer. TAAB is when they fully crossed from being a blues rock band to all out prog imo. It's a wonderfully ambitious album that appears was slightly accidental on purpose. Anderson was not keen it seems on taking Tull in that direction but it had to happen anyway.

I seem to remember it being NO1 on the chart in the early days. I can remember even starting a thread asking was it really the best prog album.

 

A bit ironic given all the love/hate TAAB has been getting in the new threads, yeah? 

This is actually really cool to see to me. Numbers are numbers, but it is neat to see PA quantified in some sort of sense, even if it's ultimately still art and opinion. Very refined and well-argued (most of the time, lol) opinion, none the less.

My first thought in this thread has been "Was CTTE always #1, and if not, how long has it been #1?". I've been visiting PA since I got serious about progressive music around 2007-2008. I can't recall what the top 100 was like! Someone enlighten me!

Catcher10 wrote: WYWH is brilliant, and Aqualung should be head and shoulders over TAAB.

 

This^

I like TAAB but I don't find anything particularly ingenious in TAAB's music: the fact that it's a single suite doesn't automatically make it a brilliant composition. Instead I find My God surely above JT's standards: it's very brilliant and enthralling, and I consider it in contention for the best Jethro Tull song. 

 

If it was my ranking then they would both drop out the top 10

Dudes,

You don't know me, I am 40+ and I'm not smart, I'm a genius.....my wife says so 

My comment is not a hate against TAAB, I just simply feel Aqualung is the best album JT ever recorded. TAAB has it's moments and is a wonderful listen but for me I can't simply pull it off the shelf and set it on the turntable anytime, with Aqualung I can listen to it at anytime.

I am not sure about No1 for TAAB, but what always boggled my mind was APP came out as No1 on Billboard but only like No18 on UK charts in '73.

See to me Aqualung set the tone for TAAB and APP, if not for Aqua the others two that followed may have been different or just another couple ok albums....Props go to those that came before.

dr prog wrote: Wish is a 3.5 star and Thick 4.5 star

That's about where I end up, too.

1) Close to the Edge - Yes

2) Selling England - Genesis

Then, we have a head-to-head between three records for third place: the difference in their score is minimal and each review can change the ranking:

3) Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd:      4.63-------> QWR 4.6137

4) Thick As A Brick - Jethro Tull:            4.63-------> QWR 4.6133

5) In The Court Of... - King Crimson    4.63------->QWR 4.6131

Exactly

Simply, IMHO, Aqualung is a great, classic rock album; TAAB is a brilliant, upbeat progressive rock album; APP is a superb, serious progressive rock album. Full stop.

I didn't decide to make the album ranking. The founders of the site decided it, it wasn't me.

And I'm sure that when a person comes to the site, the first or second thing he looks is the Top 100 album chart. 

Chart that is continuously fed by every review: every time I write one, I am obliged to give a rating: 1 star, two stars, ... or 5 stars. And this vote can change the ranking. 

 

 

My Side 2 of Aqualung would look like

 

My God quad

Up the pool

Hymn 43

Wondring again

For later

 

With Locomotive breath being the single

Wait...you mean we DON'T have to derive our sense of self (and esteem) from defending arbitrary personal qualities we subjectively deem elitist/the standard for prog rock excellence?! WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO DO?! 

I can remember playing guitar to the song WYWH in college with a buddy who could really sing.  Beautifully crafted heartfelt lyrics and a poignant reminder of those who check out in life.  

Agree with the who cares comment. Does it really matter? 

I wonder: then why do you participate in the various Prog polls ant Top 10 lists where what we/you do are always rankings?

More specifically, this thread is inspired to another, closed some days ago: "Thick As A Brick: ovverated on Progarchives", the author wrote in his first comments:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=120473" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=120473

That threads contains 114 comments, including those of you who write "Who cares" here. 

Isn't that weird? 

I still think that the BOTTOM 10 has far better and more interesting music, than the TOP 10. 

My problem with the Top Ten is that too much of it is repetitive and boring and not as valid and important in the listing of bands and artists that made this thing happen. On top of it, the listings are not about "artists", but about fans some 50 years later ... well, hellllls bells ... I still vote for some Mahler and Beethoven before I will some of those listings in the "so-called" TOP TEN.

That one went past the other? Oh my, I need a hanky and some ....... well, leave it to your imagination! 

What a bunch of tasteless listening ninnies ... that have to be told what is 1 or 2 or 3 ... so they will listen to it!

Well you know that last comment is just not true of anyone around here whatsoever unless you really don't bother reading other's views, It actually contradicts the whole point of the thread which is to challenge the order and its fun to discuss. and we all know that music is not a sport .

I do agree about your point about the list not really being about artists. Pink Floyd made 3 of the best prog albums ever but I've never found them a particularly interesting band. However I will always talk about WYWH as something special because it really is!

Camel are probably one of the most boring prog bands to me but they still nailed it with Mirage and The Snowgoose. They had a moment or 2 that should be recognised.

I'm a massive ELP fan but really their albums can be hit or miss and many quite understandably will not rate their albums very highly. 

So yes the PA album is list only exists as a discussion point and that is all we are doing.

Nah, CTTE definitely belongs above that overplayed Floyd noise, especially DSOTM. In fact, I'd put Tull ahead of Yes if anything in terms of hitting all the prog notes (mostly on TAAB), but the psych stuff never hit me as much as the folk stuff, hence my predisposition to Yes and Tull vs not getting everyone's obsession with PF.

dougmcauliffe wrote: I find it funny how people, myself included, always argue spots on the lists, but nobody seems to be offended by Close to the Edge being number one. Everyone has kinda accepted that that is THE prog album

Not by me it's not, but who am I to judge? (rhetorical question)

Getting back to the top 10, 50, 100 or whatever; I have a theory that I cannot prove, which is... that PA is dominated (in sheer numbers) by Yes, Genesis and Pink Floyd appreciators in that order....then follows KC, Tull, Gentle Giant, VdGG and maybe ELP with newer bands such as Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree and a few others. I have no proof mind you. Just my gut feeling. So IMO, the PA "charts" reflect ultra appreciators of these bands' outputs and therefore they have a hold on this site.

BTW: I hate the derogatory term "fanboy"....invented by people who have nothing better to do but invent nasty terms, when really these followers just love their band with a passion; which I think is great...so I deem them "ultra appreciators"!

Pink Floyd was over for me as a preference, right after the shows of DSOTM, and 1975 when I was already involved in a small way with Space Pirate Radio and the incredible inclusion of new music from Europe and everywhere else ... that (sometimes I think) that Progressive Music fans, do not appreciate as much!

I still saw them, and enjoyed the music, but the thrill and excitement of the music was surpassed by hundreds of miles by many other bands from Europe ... and those lists do not consider, or reflect that reality. After you choose something from YES or PF, you come back and choose another, because your listening is not as good for too many other bands in Europe ... you take one band you heard it (probably) 50 times less than PF ... thus your preferences can not improve and find/understand other musics and cultures.

I didn't dislike WYWH at all ... I was just disappointed because the 3 best songs that PF was playing during the DSOTM shows were not released ... WYWH was, which in many ways, not only copied the idea and format of DSOTM, and my take still is, that the record company wanted something that was closer to DSOTM ... because the other 3 songs weren't. One was a super space rocker that became washed out in Clorox, and the other 2 were fine, though I could accept Pigs got better, even though it almost followed the Money song design in its album version and was different in the original bootlegs. These bootlegs have been released now, but they have been placed in the wrong album, and it makes them sound wrong and the audience that likes WYWH is not going to enjoy something in that album that is so much in the original spirit of "Interstellar Overdrive" and "Astronomy Domine" ... and that "clash" of material, ends up stating that the other material was not as good, and thus, later, ANIMALS is half the album that WYWH became ... 

richardh wrote: ... I'm a massive ELP fan but really their albums can be hit or miss and many quite understandably will not rate their albums very highly.  ...

I kinda started in some of this because ELP was doing some classical music, and in fact the first album of theirs I got was PICTURES AT AN EXHIBITION, something that most Progressive Music fans, here ... it seems ... do not appreciate much ... and while it is not a poerfect rendition of the work, it is VERY GOOD, and much better than a myriad of classical versions by famed conductors.

My take, AT THE TIME, was that this was far out classical music done by the kids of our generation, you know the kids that will NEVER EVER get any recognition in any school and be appreciated for their work. And my appreciation and comments on it, have proven true to the umpteenth degree. When you hear Rachel Flowers do TARKUS and other pieces by Keith/ELP, you know right away that is one of the greatest pieces of piano music ever composed in the 20th century ... but that comment will not go anywhere, because folks here don't even know what a piano concerto is ... all they know is a song and a solo! f**k the symphony and the concerto! And any "admins" not understanding that, shows they have little appreciation for music, and that is what is hurting "progressive music" today ... no one knows music, except a song!

I'm not exactly angry ... just disappointed that folks "in charge" have no conceptual understanding of what they are doing, because if they did, they would not waste their time commenting on top of the pop songs, and not helping elevate the music ... it feels like Dean ... who stated to me ... that it's all pop music, anyway ... and we're going to keep it that way, to kill it. So, in the end, there was nothing different about "progressive" that made it stand out!

I can't help thinking that we've gone insane! 

NOT INSANE ... as the Firesign Theater would say! AND, of course, everything you know is WONG!

Those are the bands on which prog is founded otherwise this site wouldn't even exist.

I don't mind being called an 'ELP fanboy' .I am a little obsessed but it is what it is. I think though there is an inequality in terms of bands that are considered 'high brow' (ie Gentle Giant , VDGG , Genesis) and then bands like ELP and perhaps the more heavier bands of the seventies that were having 'too much fun' so couldn't be considered sophisticated. Yes kinda sit somewhere in between which might be another explanation for their popularity and that of CTTE. 

ok interesting thoughts especially about PAAE .That was the first album I purchased with my own pocket money as a 13 year old and I really hated it! (no songs!!) I would comment more but I need to go to work..

I'm just sassing you my man, I know you, myself, and a few others have stood our ground and reasoned out our faves. I started a semi-troll thread a year ago on DSoTM being overrated and I didn't expect it to take off like it did honestly LOL. I'm not as harsh on said record as I seem!

Still, Yes and PF are apples and oranges to me. Two completely different moods. When I'm down PF brings me up. When I'm up, Yes takes me higher somehow (I get up, I get down...). Prog is power!

See? That's exactly what I mean ... you were already "conditioned" to "songs" ... and had no idea at the time that music was something else altogether.

And this is all I'm fighting, as we get older ... we still walk around like we don't know what "music" is ... and are starting to think/say that one song music makes ... and it doesn't. It takes a lot more and some value to the work at hand ... otherwise every goon that puts two notes on a DAW will be a composer and called progressive simply because the melody is not up front! Dumb stuff like that!

From a compositional standard, "songs" are not very good music, for the most part. I would like to help that get a better support, but can't if they remain "songs". When they become "compositions" as is the case of CTTE, and so many other albums/pieces of music, then things change some ... now you have a serious piece of music, not just a piece of fluff.

And, maybe, just maybe, that is the problem ... no band takes their creation of "songs" as serious music ... it's just a song! But I can tell you that some of those things listed on that top ten of ours were NOT considered "songs" in those days ... they were treated as a lot more ... that we are now trying hard to hide it lest it be shown that not only do we NOT know music, but that we actually don't care.

For PROGRESSIVE MUSIC to be remembered and take a massive step in MUSIC HISTORY, we have to define it and show it to be much more serious than just a song, on a top ten list ... and I am not sure that most of us here care to even give a try, about that ... our respect for the arts, per se, has disappeared and died, and we're making sure to keep it dead ... such a commercial attitude in favor of its own thing ... that we refuse to see and understand.

If you had seen FM radio be sold to the conglomerates from the mid 70's on, and how it hurt PROGRESSIVE music and all the stuff coming out of Europe to the point where people even say that "Progressive Music" died in the 80's ... you would have understood this a lot better ... my dislike for the conglomerate that tells you what to play and like goes way back to many Sci-Fi writers ... not just a song or two. I'm not a great fan of the Overlords of Society, even if they are just some Admins in PA ... doesn't mean they are "wrong" or "right", but that's not something that we will be capable of seeing today or tomorrow ... but the results will be clear in a few years. DEAD! (All of us, actually, not just the music!)

Catcher10 wrote: If we don't discuss these "lists" and "rankings" then there is nothing to discuss.....shut down PA.

 

Nothing wrong with discussing lists and I own most that are in the Top 100. For a newbie this would be a great starting point, but these rankings/lists don't really matter because they are just opinions. There are several albums not even mentioned in the Top 100 that I believe should be there. And the way the average rating of an album is calculated is silly.  Rating only: Weight = 1;  Review by members : Weight = 10;  Review by PA Collaborators : Weight = 20. Why should the 'rating only' and a 'review' have such a huge difference in weight? And why should the review by PA collaborators get more clout than someone else? Seems to me the average rating of these albums is nothing but snobbery... my tastes are better than yours so my weight should be calculated higher. Ludicrous!  IMO all album ratings by all PA members should be equal. What would the Top 100 look like then?

Well I don't what it's like in the USA but in the UK prog is as good as dead in terms of where it sits in the general consciousness. I remember lending a prog collection (of songs OMG) to a chap at work about 20 years ago who didn't even believe there was such a thing. His argument was that when you went into a record shop you didn't see a section on prog rock then it wasn't a thing.

My take on the whole thing is that there was only a short space of time in history when the stars lined up an everything was in place for free artistic expression. As we readily know the record companies don't want this. The music industry doesn't want this. The corporate idiots don't want it. It was nearly dead even on the early seventies launch pad and it didn't take long to crush it.

For myself I got beyond the need to listen to just songs but I still believe a song can be a beautiful creative thing. I am puzzled a little by your attitude towards songs. I mean I know you love Kate Bush like me and she is almost exclusively about songs. What am I missing?

Guy Guden of Space Pirate Radio will tell you a similar story ... and how folks at the station would find the stupidest of thoughts and ideas to play down Guy's choices and obvious different talent in choices of music. And one example, to give you an idea of how stupid things can be, Guy was playing Golden Earring (Are You Receiving Me?) and the other DJ thought he was cool in getting over it on the microphone and say ... it's not rock'n'roll! ... to which Guy slowed the record to a stop ( a la PF in the movie) and said out loud ... who cares? It's GREAT MUSIC ... and re-started the record and finished it!

Likewise, was the self-fulfilling prophecy that if it wasn't in the record stores, it was not worth buying ... well, I wanted to ask you ... how could you hear it if it wasn't there? And no one in Santa Barbara or LA (including Tower in those days!) was going to answer that one ... because it wasn't there, so that another person would go ... anyone know what this is about?

But, you never saw ... Moby Disk ... in Van Nuys and a place that was all imports, all of the time, and the folks that went in there, would immediately ask ... you got the new Banco? You got the new Triana? ... and now and then you looked at the ceiling and laughed ... and cried in the same breath. 

It's the idea that if you don't know or see it, it can't exist ... and we, here, need to fight that ... because a lot of folks are believing in the "hit songs" simply as a validation of their enjoyment, because there is not a whole lot of discussion as to why they like it ... or they say it in such a way as to make it look like they know something about the numbers that makes them more intelligent than everyone else, and there for "more correct" than anyone else ... lest you find that your "numbers" and "likes" are imaginary ... and you have to redefine your self.

richardh wrote: ... My take on the whole thing is that there was only a short space of time in history when the stars lined up an everything was in place for free artistic expression. As we readily know the record companies don't want this. The music industry doesn't want this. The corporate idiots don't want it. It was nearly dead even on the early seventies launch pad and it didn't take long to crush it. ...

What we don't see, is how the media, and even things like Melody Maker and Rolling Stone, spent so much time and effort trying to kill all that music, all of a sudden to become fans of it ... and this was the case of GENESIS, when MM really only became a "fan" when PG left ... and PG became a song maker which for them was perfect, and GENESIS was not as good, but went on to eclipse everything and everyone else around them!

In 1972, long cuts were fine, and FM radio was still independent ... in the West Coast here in America ... and that meant that the different personalities played whatever they wanted ... so in some places you really got some off the wall mixes, but it made radio fun to listen to and in pure STEREO, it made a huge difference, when most people did not even have a "stereo" little radio to listen to at the beach! The music was more interesting and Black Sabbath sounded awesome on FM Radio and like total crap in the AM Radio ... if they ever considered any of it a "hit" ... which gladly they didn't, or they would have killed the band by the quality of the sound!

By 1976, with the huge bruhaha of DSOTM ... things were already changing ... FM Radio was now becoming a sort of memory lane for the better known hits ... and thus the line up, for example, for one hour in Santa Barbara might be ... LZ, Who, Lola (Kinks -- no one ever listened to anything else!!!), PF, Moodies, Willie Nelson, Lou Reed, Doors, JA/JS, Terrapin Station (GD), Steve Miller, Boz Scaggs, BS ... all of the material that you "knew", and they rarely played odd ball stuff DURING THE DAY because they did not wish to lose the number one audience. Already, the idea that no new music could be played was being asserted, and later made it very difficult to play anything else, without the station's "approved" song to be on the air.

richardh wrote: ... but I still believe a song can be a beautiful creative thing. I am puzzled a little by your attitude towards songs. I mean I know you love Kate Bush like me and she is almost exclusively about songs. What am I missing?

The issue itself is not "songs" .... it's more about the attitude towards "songs" and them creating an atmosphere that permeated the board, that makes it seem like this is what "PROGRESSIVE MUSIC" is all about, which, of course, is not true.

Kate Bush, btw, might not be good example that you want to use these days ... specially when her last album was almost a complete "anti-song" bunch of pieces ... that just flowed and they were not run by a beat or a "theme" ... they just flowed continually, and even listening to Steve Gadd, "un-drum" in a couple of places, is just such a treat ... that a piece of music could fit his touch ... it reminded me of the first 2 albums by Rickie Lee Jones, when he did almost the same thing ... and made the albums so special. Try explaining that drumming to a drummer! It's a dead end! The worst thing drummers never learn is when not to do anything ... even Bill Bruford states that!

I kinda look at Kate Bush as probably being done with "songs", and it would not surprise me if she does something which comes off like songs, and instead is really just a long piece of music, in various parts. For me, a lot of KB was about how she felt and how she described her feelings, and did not really have a stronger connection to "music" than it did "poetry", and her style of delivery ... thus, for me, she is very different and probably one of the best women artists out there ... putting together something like she did in that last album is not something that musically we usually accord to women at all ... and reducing it to songs, for me, is kinda sad ... because they are much more than just that! Just close your eyes when listening to it at midnight, outside under the moon! Play it loud so you can hear the touches and details!

Yep interesting stuff about Kate and thanks for the history lesson!

In the UK the only station that supported prog rock was Radio Caroline (Pirate off shore radio) . I was listening to them even in the early 80's and they were still playing Yes, ELP etc although mixed in with the best eighties artists like Ultravox and China Crisis ( they were the new 'progressive ') . Then it sank and well British radio has been basically sh*t ever since ( so many stations basically never ending commercial crap). Even my little bit of a heaven on a Sunday evening (1 whole hour or prog rock on Planet Rock radio) got cancelled about a year and a half ago for reasons I am still very unclear about.

If my textbook from my classical music history course is any indication, apparently the only reason prog is worth mentioning is because ELP covered Pictures At An Exhibition, and I think Frank Zappa got a mention because he had the LSO perform his orchestral pieces.

All you have to do, is listen to Rachel Flowers play TARKUS on the piano (she also does other pieces and material by Keith) ... to realize what a superb and magnificent piano concerto that piece is ... however for the time and place, it took the form of ELP.

And there are many others out there that have done "serious" work. Many trash Frank Zappa (including academia), but he did more work with orchestras in Europe that we even care to accord a lot of rock folks ... not to mention that 200 Motels done at UCLA with that choir is an incredible piece ... very modern by classical standards, but adding all the fun parts the things that a choir would want to do for music that can be so stuffy that you want to leave the room! Darryl Way, Jan Garbarek, Keith Jarrett, Francis Monkman, Eberhard Schoenner, Jean Michel Jarre, Riuichi Sakamoto, and many others in Europe ... and the list goes on ... by folks that will end up in the listing of "classical" because of the amount of work they did.

My words kinda suggest that our own folks, sometimes even here, can not "see" what a classical music piece is ... and how it stands up against 300 or 400 years of music ... and many of the classical folks in academia (sorry about the generic term!) will no doubt say that TARKUS is not that great compared to Satie! Nothing like Eggs and Melons on the same breadth.

My own dad had 3K LP's of classical music ... over 600 years worth of history there.... and even for him, it took the better part of 5 years for him to listen to Debussy done by Tomita ... but he thought (originally) that W. Carlos was "interesting", which is the academic way of saying ... I won't bother with it! 

That's like saying that the original synthesizer was not an instrument, therefore music could not be done on it! And hundreds of pioneers have shown that academia is wrong on that account! 

(BTW, I read Cousins' (Strawbs) biography book and have had a hard time reviewing it, because it is more about his history in radio, than it was about what he did ... his story of radio in the UK is rather bleak, but I suppose he was a very positive alternative!)
 

I have played TARKUS for a couple of music academics ... and one of them could not say anything, or probably did not wish to say anything ... the other ... wondered why the piece was lacking "continuity", which I presume was the repetition of a theme to REMIND US that it was the same piece of music! Kinda weird to see that comment, on 20th century music, when so much of it was about the breaking down of that kind of music design ... even as far as the (so-called) "anti-music" thing that was being done in the 1950's and 1960's which affected a lot of music ... except rock music of course that got dumbed down even more right after a few folks that can only be remembered for their "hits".

The whole thing is strange, and sometimes I am glad I will not be around to see these resolutions ... just the thought of some things and how so much of the music is treated, is depressing ... and then I'm told I am the one that does not appreciate music ... and I doubt that anyone can count on their two hands, more folks that have more different music than I do, including theater, film and classical, on my collection.

Honestly, no one I have ever met has this much ... except Guy Guden and I when we were in the same apartment ... we probably had 6K LP's 1975 and 1976 and such!), but the variety of stuff in our collections was amazing, and still something that no one can show on radio like Guy does on Space Pirate Radio.

I think that around 2009-2010 SEBT and TAAB were both in the top position momentarily and basically since late 2010 or early 2011 it's always been Close to the Edge. 

Yep

You answered my question. I've been coming to PA since 2009/2010ish, and I don't recall CTTE ever not being in the #1 spot. This would make sense.

And I think, that both jazz and rock, did a lot of that ... not to mention the eccentric folks in both out of Europe ... check out things like Art Bears, Henry Cow and many others ... probably the "new modern composers" in classical music.

With apologies for responding to things and the thread is not exactly about just that WYWH and TAAB ... but I would like to mention that it has a place within it. It is strange that WYWH has overtaken TAAB, but I wonder if the musical styles and the trip they created THEN, has considerably changed since then. 

I, do not, usually look at anything within a top ten format, that is a number to validate their standing, and as such, to me thinking/saying that one is better than the other is ... just crazy. Totally nutz! 

dougmcauliffe wrote: I find it funny how people, myself included, always argue spots on the lists, but nobody seems to be offended by Close to the Edge being number one. Everyone has kinda accepted that that is THE prog album

Not everyone, it's WAAAAAY down the list for me.....

richardh wrote: Even my little bit of a heaven on a Sunday evening (1 whole hour or prog rock on Planet Rock radio) got cancelled about a year and a half ago for reasons I am still very unclear about.

Yes, very sad that Darren Redick's show was lost, and there was another decent 2 hour show on TeamRock radio that disappeared about the same time....

amen

even a dog stops chasing its tale eventually

But then what will there be for content to post about? You mean people might actually have to find a real hobby for once?! 

I wonder if anyone has ever committed a mass shooting over this subject. Ugh. I'm a bad dog for even thinking such things 

Oh, no, there's plenty that we could discuss instead.  Here's a sampling and which is merely the tip of the iceberg. 

Here, Beato breaks down why this Genesis track works, in a fair amount of detail.  I remember Hackettfan posted it here as well.  

And this is just one track.  We could potentially do this for the entire prog universe.  That is, it would be far more interesting to discuss what makes TAAB work or what makes Shine One work than compare ratings of one with the other.  But for whatever reason, there's always been only limited appetite for the former category of discussions on here.

When people say who cares, what they mean is we all know TAAB and WYWH are classics of the genre irrespective of where we may rank them in our personal lists.  They are also both 45 years old or more at this point.  Think about that.  When Starostin launched his original website, he was talking about jazz's heyday being a half a decade in the past.  That's the point at which prog is now.  Does it really matter if, temporarily, one album gets a smidgen ahead of the other in the ratings?  No, the answer, as much as you dislike it, is it.does.not.matter.

I maybe a bit over critical of this, but this is where a lot of "ADMINS" could really help some of these discussions. A lot of the material I post is about the the appetite for a lot of these discussions ... and then all I get left with is ... you like this song, because it is ranked number 3 ... and there are no words for anything else, and the comments from many, are all a continuation of the like/dislike and not anything else ... and this is where things get nebulous for me, and the work of "progressive music" becomes less and less valuable and important ... and I would wish to see PA help that element a bit more.

Likewise, the information and the attitude towards the band's information and SPECIALLY the listing of albums, that also includes the single releases from Patagonia and the double side EP from Mars. This is just like THE DOORS ... so we're going to include a review of "Light My Fire" simply because it was a single ... ? That's bass ackwards for me ... and a bit on the scary side, because all of a sudden we allow too much garbage into the system ... and nothing will dilute the content of the site, than the gibberish and the garbage.

At the very least I do not discuss number one or 2. My mom is the corporate accountant ... and I do help some with data entry ... but I do not do numbers when away from the office ... PERIOD!

It's just scary to me that a post about one of this overtaking that ... becomes a more important discussion, that what the music is about, and how it has survived and lived for almost 50 years ... I guess no one gives a darn ... and that is F0R ME a really bad/poor reflection of the mentality on the board ... I certainly do not see DAMO and some of the best ADMINS on this board feeding that monster!

I would agree with you except I don't see you prompting those discussions.  Mosh, it would help a lot if you didn't turn your every post into a rant on this topic.  Even if you have a point, you don't seem to appreciate that it becomes a turn off and people simply tune out of reading further.  Just get with it, discuss deeper about songs like say another poster TODDLER used to.  Don't bother with the revolution.  Remember the top 10 and other features are of the site owner and not created by the mods.  So even if mods sympathise, nothing much they can do about it.

while Thick As A Brick is way down the list at #170 so this development is more in line with the masses

Hardly surprising as WYWH (as also DSOTM) is more popular with the general rock audience.  The Wall seems to have undergone a revision at least going by RYM.  When I was getting into rock, Wall was insanely popular among PF fans.  Probably second most (first being DSOTM).

the other part of the "who cares" movement, speaking for myself, is there are a lot of other albums out there we could discuss that maybe some people haven't heard, that might not even be in the "top 1000" yet are near and dear to us.  As a prog fan, I feel generally unimpressed by the idea of hit charts, even hit album charts.  So I don't get this trading of one type of chart for another;  it's still a popularity contest that says nothing in and of itself about the value of an album to ME.  Reject the charts!  Long live prog folk!

Yeah, in short, there's plenty to do on this website without having to discuss movements in the top 5 all time.

Same reason that anybody posts in any thread on the internet.  It snowballs and you're like, ok what's going on here.  If I have spent the time to read through these messages, might as well say what I think.

So we can derail the topic at hand and steer the conversation of how Jane Fonda keeps her breasts so perky at the age of 81 

Or one can look at the story of Branson and Virgin ... when you can't sell, you create your own Top Ten, and all of a sudden, become a major player!

Personally I think albums are overrated anyway. Most of the highest rated albums reflect consistency rather than inspiration. Tarkus was the most inspired prog track of the early seventies imo and gets a lot of praise on this forum. Where is this album on the charts? Nowhere because side 2 is a mix of 'ordinary' rock tracks and a bit of experimentation that didn't quite work. This is not a rant about ELP not being higher rated, I don't care that much (ok a little bit maybe but not enough to get upset about it).

I would like a rating system for tracks ideally. That would be much more interesting and makes more sense to me.

nb. Mosh will now tell me I'm only conditioned to accept 'songs' and I don't respect the artists choices.

Well we had this...

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=107690&PN=1" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=107690&PN=1

...with Tarkus on 5. I tend to be with Mosh on this one though, albums seem to me the far more natural unit for prog than songs.

You already know that is, for me, one of the best piano concerto's done in the 20th century ... just close your eyes and listen to Rachel Flowers do it!

richardh wrote: ... Mosh will now tell me I'm only conditioned to accept 'songs' and I don't respect the artists choices.

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