There are no wasted moments , no solo bits (outside of the main tracks) and it creates a 'feeling' . There is also snob value in having just 3 tracks as far as prog fans go. Even in 1972 it wasn't that common for prog bands to have so few tracks on one album. Tull admittedly went one better with Thick as a Brick and that of course is another contender.

However there is also that thing called consistency. I believe too many albums are overrated because of this need to be consistent. The rating system rewards consistency rather that inspiration. Fragile in my view is more inspired but then you have those wasted moments and solo bits littering up the place.

At the end of the day it's seems to be more about what you avoid doing then about the fantastic moments you can create. Brain Salad Surgery is my favourite album but of course there are those familiar ELP wanderings and side turns that seem to annoy many people.

I totally agree "Relayer" is better, but not just slightly.  "Close to the Edge" is in my opinion not daring enough; it is too "pleasing". it is the aural equivalent of a "Handschmeichler" (German word for an object that is nice to hold; literally it means "hand flatterer")

Obviously part of the explanation of it's success is in what BaldJean wrote. It is quite melodic, emotional and accessible and some of the melodies work very well, but at the same time it has enough complexity and interesting if not experimental bits to separate it from AOR/standard classic rock. Add the virtuosity and brilliance of the instrumental performances and you have a classic.

Personally I think it's a very good album, but it is nowhere near my top 10 (and I also like Relayer quite abit more), the reason being that in some places I get the impression that they are more about showing off the instrumentalists' and composers' skills than that everything works 100% in musical/emotional terms, but this doesn't stop the album from overall working quite well (and I suspect that also the show off factor is attractive to some).

I'm not really sure. It almost seems to be one of those things where people(well prog fans anyway)like it because everyone else likes it. It seems to be a case of "it must be popular for a reason." Also, I think it's only in the past ten years or so that it has been regarded as one of the very top prog albums(if not the top prog album). It now seems to be an album that is well regarded outside of just hardcore prog circles. For example it's also rated pretty high on the rate your music website with over 15,000 ratings(coming in at number 63 over all).  As to why it's so popular on here I don't know. It could almost as easily be "in the court of the crimson king" as the number one album on here(which apparently it was at one point). I actually agree with you that relayer is better but I realize that is  personal preference. Although relayer is much wilder it's also not as repetitive imo. Both are among the greatest prog rock albums ever though and my two favorite Yes albums(if I had to choose).

You could be right actually about it not really being a band wagon effect(even though that was my initial impression). If we take away the prog element for a second and just look at music in general Yes are definitely not what you would call a bandwagon band(especially not these days). You don't see Yes t shirts in Spencers or see young people wearing them these days. Rush would be much closer although the best example, in my opinion, would be the Grateful Dead. Prog fans, imo, tend to be independent thinkers(for the most part) so I don't think there's much(if any)of a herd mentality going on. As for Rush would say they are more well known and have a bigger fanbase(probably by far)than Yes over all. I spend time over on one of the main Rush fansites and can tell you that a lot of Rush fans aren't even really prog fans(probably at least 70 percent aren't in fact). Although Yes aren't the biggest prog band(they might have been at one point; I would give that honor to either Rush or PF) I think on here there are an equal number of Yes, Rush, Genesis, Pink Floyd and King Crimson fans even though Yes happens to have the number one album.

I hope what I'm about to say doesn't sound too confusing but in the past few years I started to see "Close to the Edge" as sort of the prog equivalent of "Dark side of the Moon" or even "Sgt. Peppers" or "Pet Sounds." I guess the confusing part would be that many consider DSOTM(or even Sgt. Peppers)to be prog albums. However, within strictly prog circles is what I mean. If CTTE isn't the first album that most newcomers to prog get it's usually at least one of them(unless of course they are caught up on prog metal or pay no attention to classic bands). 

I opened a discussion about Close to the Edge here

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119684" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119684

where you can read my opinions about that song and that album.

Anyway neither CTTE nor Relayer are in my Top 10, or 20, or 30, maybe 100.

Yep. Exactly.

richardh wrote: There are no wasted moments

Pretty much ~

Isn't the last minute of AYAI a wasted moment?

In my opinion AYAI should finish after 6 minutes.

 

 

Close to the hedge, down by the flowers

This song goes on hours and hours.

Many have said there's no wasted space. I agree with this. From the starting moments that crescendo into the intro section, Yes means business. It's 17 minutes of, in my honest personal opinion, archetypal symphonic progressive rock of the highest caliber. 

The word zeitgeist gets thrown around a lot; I truly feel this record is just that for where prog was coming from and was heading in 1972. 

There are tons of stellar prog records from this era. CTTE just surpasses those by a hair in every category that counts most. What it also does, however, is manage to make those little tweaks all more than the sum of their parts. It's one of the few prog recordings that even as it ages it continues transcending itself.

My remembrances from that time, and I SAW YES doing TFTO at the Long Beach Arena, is that there was a very "logical" progression to the music and its words. CTTE, was a kind of spiritual attempt, even if a bit on the vague side. To me, TFTO was a serious spiritual quest, that only failed because a clown or two consistently makes fun of it, and keeps saying that playing on it was a waste and not important or interesting. Combine that with a nasty press that was getting tired of long cuts and things that supposedly were "out there" in the lalalaland of some imaginary spiritual trip, and it took some serious trashing from just about everybody, and it still does in many ways today, RIGHT HERE, by people that sometimes (I think) are not looking at the band as a composer ... they continually look at a band as their only masturbatory effect, for the songs they like!

RELAYER is a nice album, and I think the title cut is a reaction and huge finger to a lot of YES fans, and the press ... you play something that has less lyrics, and more noise and louder, and make it look like it is important ... and in the end, you do not care if it is liked or not ... you got it out of your system!

CTTE was a nice step up from the "songs" (only) album before. That they ended up creating something that was nice, and still considered 47 years later one of the nicest and probably favorite "progressive" albums is something that YES could never have conceived, but the album worked and the cohesion to create a wonderful album and piece of music showed a group improving by leaps and bounds.

The harsh, and hard part of it all, is a lot of YES fans, not being able to make sense of TFTO because the lyrics don't tell you something of a kid story ... about nothing. Instead it tells you a sort of bunch of tales that might or might not be connected, but ... "nous sommes du soleil" ... which tells you that regardless what you and I say, it all fits under the sun each and every day of our lives ... are we spiritual enough to even conceive that thought or idea?

The answer would likely be no, because we think that Stairway to Heaven is more of a spiritual song than TFTO is. Specially when one is about an orgasm, or supreme moment and the other is more about like within a spiritual context, not just a small moment in life compared to the life changing event!

I, personally, don't like to get into these discussions, because an artist has a life and THEIR WORK is about ALL OF IT, not just one song that we like a lot, or prefer. AND, this is the part that has a tendency to make a lot of this stuff seem not important ... we like Layla, but who cares about anything else Eric has done that you have heard on the radio other than 2 other songs ... all of a sudden, he is not important or valuable but for a total of 10 minutes, and you do not have words to extend that ... beyond (and before) .... I like it!

Seeing a lot of all this work in context with its time, place and living, makes a lot more sense. It could be said that YES, or at least Jon Anderson, because a drunkard obviously could not discuss anything else, was more interested in doing something more far out and valuable ... and we make it look like they are not allowed to do so, because I don't like this or that they did ... and it's not fair ... you don't go around saying the same about Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, or Stravinsky ... but then, it makes it look like you are not exactly a music fan, otherwise you would know more than just one song or two ... you might have noticed the progression and what the work was about ... instead of just relegating it to your preference ... not its inherent value or life.

It really makes it tough, to answer your question, and sometimes it can only be answered from a preference top ten kind of thought/design ... and the album and the music piece was NOT a top ten hit, and neither was it exactly 100% appreciated until much later ... LA stations did not play it for at least what seemed like a year later, when all of a sudden a piece from side 2 took off on the air. All of a sudden CTTE is selling better than hot cakes and porn!

It's strange, and even I get worried saying all these things ... but they are very true and ... for my tastes sometimes sad ... so I'm remembered for the one shirt and pants I had and nothing else! It's down right weird and strange for me!

Logan wrote: I don't know. I seem to be one of the few that has never really liked the album other than liking the title-track, even when I was big on other Yes. I prefer the earlier Yes albums. Close to the Edge wouldn't rank in my top 1000 albums, I don't even think it would make it in my top 2000. It just never clicked with me, and I've tried listening to it considerable times over decades.

This.  I have to say that I really don't like it.  Would not be in my top ...anything really.....

I saw Yes on the CTTE tour in the USA, 22 September 1972....I hadn't even heard the LP yet, imagine my surprise!  

Relayer was another strong effort, and I dearly love that LP as well, but CTTE came first, so I call it my own favorite Yes LP. 

This is how Squire looked the first night I ever saw him....he was amazing.  

This is my thinking .... so don't get any ideas that I believe this to be true.

In the past 20 years, most of the fans, progressive or not, have heard a lot of music in rock, from prog to a lot of other things, that included a lot of guitar thrashing, and it made the mode and the idea of it much more viable as a true instrument and a compositional item.

Thus, a much younger fan, that has heard a lot of things like Dream Theater, Iron Maiden and many other bands that love to guitar loud and play so many notes and scales, would (more than likely), enjoy RELAYER a lot more and better than they would the more melodic and classical minded CTTE, and then the compositional design of TFTO ... something that RELAYER appears to not have, and gives away to a more ... let it all hang out ... kind of thing.

In terms of "better", that is so subjective and crazy that I am not sure that any opinion is representative or the right thought or context, specially within the band's canon and history. It all becomes a part of the ensemble called YES and its music history. 

For me, the better album is trivial ... I would tell you in 1.2 seconds that TFTO is the album I love the most, and not name a 2nd or 3rd album from that group at all ... but that would be a bit on the preference side. Composition-ally, I find that they had their best work with Rick Wakeman in those early days, but sadly, he has trashed and talked too much crap about too much of it, and his work on the solo side, has not even half the design and ability that the band showed, including the talent it takes to help define something so different and valuable, which his solo albums did not do ... even past the first solo album, that while nice, was a mess in terms of pure design and composition!

And all the rest, is just fan fiction and some money laundering for the fans who suck it all up!

Black Sabbath too for sure.

LOL!!  Them and everyone else from the 70s! 

This photo of Steve Howe was taken at their Cicero, IL "Solo Album Tour" show by my friend Curt.  It was during "Ritual," the only song that Howe plays on his Gibson Les Paul Jr. guitar.  Man, he looks ripped!! 

Dellinger wrote: I do think CttE is Yes's best, and though it might not be my favourite prog album, I am perfectly fine considering it the top of the prog albums. Mostly, I do think it is excellent all the way through. All of it's songs are great (yeah yeah, since it's got so many songs...), though Siberian Khatru may be a little bit behind the other two, it's still and excellent song. And for me, it's got the best line-up I could think of for a band, with no weaker member, all the instruments at the top. As for Relayer, I do love GoD... perhaps even slightly more than CttE (depending on my mood, I guess), but the rest of the album just doesn't do it for me. To be Over is actually a rather frustrating one... I do find it's melody really special, one of their best moments... but somehow I feel it was not very well developed... the song does drag on and it becomes tedious for me, and I guess I like that melody played by acoustic guitar better (I like that song so much more on the solo instrumental versions by Steve Howe). And Sound Chaser... yeah, that song is indeed too much for me... and even if at times I might think I am close to getting into it's melodies and let it grow on me... then the Cha cha cha's come in and ruins any possibility of liking the song. None of these sort of things happen on CttE.

 

Yep just about sums up my feelings as well.

I love Judas Iscariot and actually much of the Criminal Record album. I put that album and also Six Wives above much of Yes work including TFTO and Relayer but accepting that CTTE is virtually untouchable. A lot of this is taste of course but Wakeman elevated Yes although Moraz was a very capable replacement indeed. There are maybe only a small handful of keyboard players that could have filled that position and Jobson and Emerson were probably the only other two!

You mean kinda saying something, but nothing at the same time?

They are both perfect. Obviously Relayer is the more daring record, CTTE the more melodic one.

They are siblings. Separated only by my favorite LP of all time - Tales From Topographic Oceans.

Hey, I'll be the Roundabout .

So then wouldn't that mean that Relayer, CTTE AND Tales from Topographic Oceans all make your top ten? Which Genesis and KC albums make your top ten?

hahaha

1. Tales From Topographic Oceans

2. The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway

3. Fragile

4. Foxtrot

5. Close To The Edge

6. Larks' Tongues In Aspic

7. Thick As A Brick

8. Relayer

9. Brain Salad Surgery

10. Red

This is probably as close as I can get to determining my true and authentic Top Ten.

^ if you flip that ten then it wouldn't be far off my own symph prog top ten. Larks and Tales would have to go and would be replaced by Trick and the Refugee album (which I like more than Relayer) .

I would probably want to stick some VDGG in there as well.

...But will you catch your Tales From Topographic Oceans...or is it all just a Trick of The Tail? 

It's Chris Squire's bass line. It's one of the greatest syncopated bass lines ever. 

Relayer is stunning but it doesn't have that melodic unforgettable bass line

it does not only have to do with words but with any ranking statistics. read this wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipfs_law" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf's_law

tl;dr It's a practically flawless album both melodically and progressively that came out in the perfect circumstances to become a go-to touchstone for serious prog fans at the time, which time has continued to be kind towards.

We have a winner. That "yelping" bass line that kicks in right before verse 1 is pure heaven. Total Mass Retain bass line might be his slickest groove captured on tape. "The time between the notes relates the color to the scenes..."

Sacro_Porgo wrote: To me, Close To The Edge makes perfect sense as the quintessential prog rock album. There's no filler,

I think that some of the mellotron parts could have been cut down on And You and I, and also that Siberian Khatru is a bit overlong and repetitive.

(Personally I probably prefer Fragile a bit to CTTE, but the Yes Album is the most underrated of my favourites.)

Argo2112 wrote: CTTE just checks all the boxes. The chaotic beginning settling in to the wonderfully woven instrumental backing for Anderson's' vocal with everything pulling in a slightly different direction yet it all works some how.  (or maybe some Howe  ) Followed by A nice melodic section  that just gives us a moment to catch our breath . Then back to the to the previous section with a twist. As The Shrubbery noted earlier in the thread , Chris Squire throws us a curve ball and gives us a sparse but brilliant syncopated bass line that just takes that section to a whole new level.The whole time Burford is holding this beautiful mess together as only he could.  I could go on, a dreamy soft melodic section, Wakeman's surreal keyboard solo then back in to the main vocal section and finally that majestic ending. What more could you want in a prog song?

I was actually just thinking about the keyboard noodling in AYAI today. I still don't consider it filler, but it perhaps could have been made more interesting somehow.

Disagree about Siberian Khatru tho.

Weird ... a Moshkism that is the worst Moshkism I have ever seen. I was around in those days, and already had THE YES ALBUM and FRAGILE ... and not a single person that I knew or met, or at the couple of record stores, EVER ... said, or used the word "prog", or the words "prog fans".

The assumption is ridiculous, and a mental fabrication of what many folks do today to "change" the history of the time, and how people felt about music and the arts. Almost all of it, was not about the "fans" ... it was about the music itself ... it was later, when things got even worse and more commercial (FM radio in America was no longer independent!!!!!) that things changed and all of a sudden the word and "style" became better known and used, but I don't think that a single person EVER said "progressive" about Pink Floyd until way after DSOTM.

For the most part, it was still considered "art rock", and up until later, it just floated ... until the incredible backstabbing flash of the record companies started trying to kill long cuts after the deluge of them in 1971 and 1972 (and earlier). And the same record companies had done the same thing to black music in the 1950's according to Tom Dowd and others! The main reason? It was improvised and the cuts were too long, and they were not "songs" ... and a lot of it was considered "jazz" that at the time was not given a whole lot of credit as being "music" at all. It wasn't until the 60's and after that jazz really got its chance and just flew ... much further than rock music for that matter!

My father (approaching 70 years old) confirms this as well; "Nobody called it prog we all just called it rock and they were all different! YES was different and that's why I loved them!". Labels definitely came after the fact, hindsight being 20/20, right?

Wow ... did you even read what I wrote? Might even check the post right under it, too!

You are, as I see, evaluating 50 years ago, with today's eyes, and changing them to what you want to see with your eyes of now ... sorry to disappoint you, but even in movies and a lot of sci-fi, what you want to do, is not do'able.

Good luck trying to change time and place to fit your ideas. 

I did not give you ideas ... I gave you a direct eye sight of what I saw ... and as such it is true ... on top of it, just so you know, some of us got our heads beaten up in Chicago, and we have a stronger reason for fighting the good fight of truth and justice, including the respect for a lot of the music out there ... so please ... at least respect what someone SEES ... instead of you thinking that it was just an idea. For someone in a cornfield somewhere else, this might not have been as important or as valid ... but it was for many others out there!

Just consulted my NME Encylcopedia of Rock 1978 edition and Yes and ELP are called "techno-rock", no mention of the "p" word. My dodgy memory tells me that progressive rock was a thing in the 70s but I hadn't heard it shortened to "prog" until more recently.

Take your own advice.   You jumped all over SacroPorgo for simply saying that he and his friends were 'prog fans'--   you decided to reprimand him for simply remembering that there were fans of what was, or became, progressive rock.  

As for terminology, it's been shown on these forums several times that the term "progressive rock" was in use waaay back in the 60s to mean the new sound of rock n' roll:  King Crimson, Zappa, Jethro Tull, even though it wasn't adopted at large until much later.

Absolutely. Maybe it wasn't even called prog until there was a "return" to more standard formats of pop and rock after '72-'76ish? Contrast creating history, etc.

Indeed.

Well said!  Queen II is one of my all-time favorite LPs, and I love to play guitar along with it!!  "Ogre Battle" is a masterpiece, it is not an album that is discussed much on PA or elsewhere.

hugo1995 wrote: For me, the intro section (the pop song) is alright, but because of the bridge and ending it kinda makes the entire song an experience that must be heard for all prog fans. Definitely the best 'starter' for prog. People often say DSotM is the starter for prog. Nah. Close to the Edge has everything. Cheesy melody and vocals, epic solos, a breakdown, and a f**king long length lol.

 

Yes this is a really good comment and one that has been echoed quite a bit. Close To The Edge has lots of ambition but its actually not really that challenging to listen to. Yep ideal starter album. DSOTM is a good pop/rock/blues crossover album. It always sounded like a formula to me but then if you create the formula then that's okay presumably.

Which would make complete logical sense for why TFTGO didn't go over so well, lol.

 

I agree that once it gets into the vocal sections, but the intro is pretty weird for someone being introduced to prog for the first time.

A lot of academic analysis has been expended on CTTE. Here in 2019 looking back on pieces of popular music that are getting close to 50 years old we have lost a lot of the original context within which these pieces of art were created.

Try to place it within the framework of popular music at that time. At the end of the day, they were still tryting to create music that people would consume. For that matter, all musicians had that goal. Whether is was CCR , Led Zeppelin or Neil Sedaka.

One thing that I believe does not get the accolades that it should is the work of Eddie Offord on CTTE.

That album sounds great. There is a lot going on with those compositions and the mix he achieved is spectacular. For the listener, there is an easy separation of instruments amidst some difficult arrangements. Back in those days, music was mixed to accentuate vocals and there's lots of bad recordings. Close to the Edge is not one of those. I think a big part of CTTE standing the test of time is the production value and compared with pop music at that time, even the material that was edging over the lines of complexity, and 'progressiveness', it rises above. Every band has a time when they were at the heights of their powers and the forces of popularity and skill come together in a career highlight.

Agreed although 1972 was just before 'compression' started to become more noticeable. Another Offord produced album was ELP's Trilogy from that same year . You can still hear the space between the instruments and the vocal sound is very natural. Brain Salad Surgery (although I love) clearly missed his influence. It all starts to become a bit of a 'sound fudge' to me and Lake's vocals are a little strange although that may have been deliberate given the sci-fi setting of the music.

You're right, Trilogy is a brilliant production, definitely the best sounding ELP album.

I also think I read that Offord had a lot to do with constructing the song CTTE from various bits of tape.

Funny I've always felt Tril was their worst-sounding of the first four--  off balance, tinny, uneven.

I would add Selling England by the Pound to that list but I don't think we would need to add any others. Thick as a brick, moving pictures and wish you were here can come later.

There was a disappointing Japanese remaster but otherwise I don't hear that at all. Hoedown especially is superb. The percussion and keys just pop out. In fact the drum sound on the whole thing is great and the vocals and keys are crystal clear throughout. I just find its an unfocused album (not untypical of ELP) although still easily in my top two of theirs.

^ That's the problem, it was over-mixed, soundboarded to death.