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What was the first "modern" prog rock album?

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Topic: What was the first "modern" prog rock album?
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Subject: What was the first "modern" prog rock album?
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 16:08
By modern I don't mean it has to be avant garde or be a "crossover" prog album. So to avoid confusion and to explain what I mean here are a few qualifications: 

Preferably from a band who was formed after the golden age of prog(ie post 70's). At the very least the album(s) should have come out after 1977.

Album cannot be too retro sounding (so it can be influenced by the old prog to a degree but can't sound too much like them. In other words you can't say to yourself "oh this sounds like Genesis" or "this sounds like Yes" when listening to it). So this would pretty much eliminate any neo prog album(sorry and I like a lot of neo prog but it's too retro sounding to be "modern"). 

That's about it. 

So which albums would you consider to be contenders for this title?






Replies:
Posted By: tailings
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 16:14
First thing that comes to mind, especially meeting the criteria of not cloning early styles & being 'rock', is Mr. Bungle _Mr. Bungle_, though I'm sure something will have preceded it.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 17:32
I would go with This Heat - Deceit, Dun - Eros or Cardiacs - The Seaside




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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 17:35
Cardiacs are probably a good choice. I was also thinking something by Djam Karet maybe. 

The one that first came to my mind was the first Echolyn album(self titled)from 1991. 


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 18:05
^ I'd second Echolyn



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 18:15
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I'd second Echolyn


Great minds think alike. Tongue





Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 18:25
I need some more from them, only own Suffocating the Bloom



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 19:10
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I need some more from them, only own Suffocating the Bloom


Well, I don't want to get too off topic here but I will just say that the first album is very good(although maybe a bit rough production wise). However, typically aside from suffocating the one you need to get next is as the world. A lot of people like mei  also but I think maybe they bit off a bit more than they could chew on that one(one 45 minute track or however long it is). It makes for good listening for long car rides though. It's still worth checking out regardless though. Also, I never even thought of using italics for titles before so thanks for the idea. Wink


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 19:30
^ Standard practice for titles of albums, films, books, but not of individual tracks, episodes or chapters: those are in quotes.



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 19:33
I would go with echolyn but other than its a bit late for post 70's in 91. Djam Karet are a better pick in 82. How about Ozric Tentacles in 85?

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 19:44
Djam Karet's first album was in 85. The releases before that were under the name Happy Cancer. I believe Ozric's first full length non cassette release was in 89 and was Pungent Effulgent. 

I would also like to mention seasons end  by Marillion which was their first album with H(Steve Hogarth) in 1989. The Fish stuff was probably too retro sounding to be truly modern(although I suppose an argument could be made for CAS) but I think seasons end  qualifies. 


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 19:49
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Djam Karet are a better pick in 82. How about Ozric Tentacles in 85?
 

'84 for Djam Karet (first album, No Commercial Potential, in '85). 

Ozric Tentacles formed in '83. 

But whereas the Ozrics were surfing the waves of the Hillage-Gong mothership, Djam Karet was forging a unique sound.

Both are two of my favorite bands, but I've always ranked DK above OT.


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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 20:10
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I would go with echolyn but other than its a bit late for post 70's in 91. Djam Karet are a better pick in 82. How about Ozric Tentacles in 85?
I agree. Djam Karet or the Ozric Tentacles are a better pick than Echolyn.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 20:46
And if it weren't for my rules that it can't be a 70's band the album shown on my avatar might be a contender. :P


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 21:04
I'd say Marillion, Cardiacs, Dun, Solaris, Thinking Plague, Shub-Niggurath, Twelfth Night, IQ are all contenders. It just depends who formed closes to January 1st, 1980!

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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 22:31
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

And if it weren't for my rules that it can't be a 70's band the album shown on my avatar might be a contender. :P

Drama by Yes might also be a contender also and so might PG 3(melt). 


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 22:33
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I'd say Marillion, Cardiacs, Dun, Solaris, Thinking Plague, Shub-Niggurath, Twelfth Night, IQ are all contenders. It just depends who formed closes to January 1st, 1980!

Well, like I said in my original post neo prog tends to be too retro sounding. However, that didn't really apply to Twelfth Night so much so they might certainly qualify imo. 


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 23 2019 at 22:57
Saga with debute st from 1978 and Images at Twilight

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 00:36
^ I was gonna say Saga too but they didn't seem to fit the OP's criteria.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 01:03
I think in different ways albums such as Talk Talk - The Color of Spring and Metallica - Master of Puppets has had a huge impact on modern sounding progressive rock.

If it wasn't for the formed post 1980's rule here I'd say the approach heard on those early RIO-albums by Univers Zero has had much bigger impact on the flood of avant-bands than the modest popularity of the ensemble suggests.



Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 04:14
^ I dare to say that Vienna by Ultravox released in 1980 showcased sophistocated elements of art rock and prog, mixed with their classical/symphonic inspired new wave/post punk, operatic vocals, violin solos, and electronic music elements. Are similar to Master of Puppets andThe Colour of Spirng

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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 06:01
Kultivator's Barndomens Stigar from 1981?

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that's a happy bag of lettuce
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Posted By: TerLJack
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 07:22
This is one of the most interesting topics I've seen here recently.
Following the rules, to me it seems Ozric has their toe firmly in the Tangerine Dream/JM Jarre camp.
Echolyn reminds of Gentle Giant.
Djam Karet is different.  That's a good choice.
I also like The Colour of Spring and Ultravox choices.
Some bands that have been showing up on PA recently that I have always thought were innovators.
Oingo Boingo?
How about Drastic Plastic or Red Noise?
I haven't really thought this through much.  I just like seeing all the uniqueness and evolvement in music in the late 70s/early 80s.
I'll continue to think about it and follow this thread to see what we all come up with.  
What I now see the question as:  What happened after the prog boom waned in modern music that made me sit up and say "I have never heard something like this before."  But still holds true to basic progressive rock principals.  Whatever that is.Wink


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 08:32
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I'd say Marillion, Cardiacs, Dun, Solaris, Thinking Plague, Shub-Niggurath, Twelfth Night, IQ are all contenders. It just depends who formed closes to January 1st, 1980!

Well, like I said in my original post neo prog tends to be too retro sounding. However, that didn't really apply to Twelfth Night so much so they might certainly qualify imo. 

If you're going to get that picky, almost all prog is retro sounding in some way. I would pick Cardiacs if you want OMG originality. Nobody sounded like them and nobody has since.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 12:39
I would go with Marillion or IQ, the neo prog is just a tag, very subjective IMO. Everybody sounds like everybody else or is influenced by everybody else. Big smile

But if you wanna stretch the definition of prog.......maybe Queensryche Operation Mindcrime


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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 12:45
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Kultivator's Barndomens Stigar from 1981?

Good pick


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 13:00
The first album of Mother Gong's "Robot Woman" trilogy came out 1981. Most definitely a modern prog album. Their 1979 album "Fairy Tales" was still firmly old school though.


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 15:28
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Saga with debut st from 1978 and Images at Twilight

You know what? Despite my no 70's rule I think this might be a good candidate. I'm open to suggestions and I try not to be narrow minded about it. Typically I just think most late seventies prog was still part of the first wave but if there was something new and fresh happening then it should be taken under consideration. 

As for my opinion about neo prog well most of it just sounds like it's retro and not totally new or different. Not being picky I just think it borrowed too much from the earlier stuff. Not all of it but it seems most did and made it rather obvious. I like how they weren't trying to hide their influences but at the same time it didn't seem like a new chapter for prog just a continuation with some mild new wave and punk influences thrown in from time to time. I'm actually by no means a neo prog hater either but for the purposes of this topic I don't feel the neo prog from the eighties qualifies for the most part.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 15:37
I just updated and modified my criteria in the first post. 


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 15:52
Well now its clearly Univers Zero - 1313 or UK - s/t

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 16:56
^ that was 1977!

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 17:41
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Well now its clearly Univers Zero - 1313 or UK - s/t

Tongue

No, no. You can't change your answer. Give someone else a chance. ;) Besides UK is very old prog sounding isn't it? With a touch of fusion? 


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 18:26
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ that was 1977!

UK's first album was 78. 


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 18:37
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ that was 1977!

UK's first album was 78. 

1313 was 77. UK was 78 but still both are 70s!

The TRUE answer is the album that was released TODAY and yet haven't heard Wink


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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 18:44
^ Well, like I said I amended my initial statement just a tad.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 24 2019 at 21:59
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

The first album of Mother Gong's "Robot Woman" trilogy came out 1981. Most definitely a modern prog album. Their 1979 album "Fairy Tales" was still firmly old school though.

Sadly, this is an album that is under represented and not heard, and I think that a lot of folks do not like some of the acting in it by Daevid Allen to help create the story for the album, which is incredible, and a very "feminist" concern, for women ... something that a lot of men are threatened with a lot more than they might care to admit!

Gilli's albums, in general, are quite with it ... and many times her words are just so strong and with it, as to make one cry ... hearing her welcome the magick brothers and mystic sisters (more than once, but never better than in one album!), and then in so many other albums, adds something to the GONG trilogy and in general to the whole commune at the time, when it seems that the women were submissive, and when they wanted their freedom, they became witches ... in the end, nothing was farther from the truth, and Gilli, bless her heart, was one at its forefront!

NP: Mother Gong -- WILD CHILD


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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: April 25 2019 at 03:22
When it comes to new forms of prog in the early '80s outside of the first bits of neo-prog it would have to be avant-prog... Dün, This Heat and Kultivator might be good here, and you've also got Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, Present, Etron Fou Leloublan and Aksak Maboul creating their new wave around this time even though they're a bit too early for your criteria. Thinking Plague maybe?

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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 25 2019 at 03:37
I would also say that Kate Bush and Bjork are vaulble candiades of people whom were not derivative of 70s influence but still new it and incorporated art rock into their song writing. i bet that is easyer in Singer-songwriting

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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 25 2019 at 07:26
I never really thought of Bjork as prog. Kate Bush is prog related maybe imo but that's about it. I think she's crossover prog on here but I'm not sure. I suppose that fits her too.


Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: May 01 2019 at 07:17
Saga, maybe It Bites, Toto, Talking Heads (maybe), Ozric Tentacles, 


Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: May 01 2019 at 09:49
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I never really thought of Bjork as prog. Kate Bush is prog related maybe imo but that's about it. I think she's crossover prog on here but I'm not sure. I suppose that fits her too.


This is the difficulty with a discussion like this. Either something resembles the early 70s music we know as prog, and we write it off as sounding too retro, or it sounds nothing like it and we write off as not being prog.


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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 01 2019 at 11:13
Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I never really thought of Bjork as prog. Kate Bush is prog related maybe imo but that's about it. I think she's crossover prog on here but I'm not sure. I suppose that fits her too.


This is the difficulty with a discussion like this. Either something resembles the early 70s music we know as prog, and we write it off as sounding too retro, or it sounds nothing like it and we write off as not being prog.

Bjork not being retro has pretty much nothing to do with it. Does her music have qualities that fit the traditional definition of prog? That is to say long instrumental passages, a focus on the music(ie composition) and not just songs in general, tight musicianship, odd time signtatures etc? It doesn't have to sound like old prog much(if at all)it just has to fit the general description and be considered prog according to the template that made it different which is what set prog apart from other music in the first place. I don't just mean sound but also construction of the music. Based on what I've heard Bjork's music does not fall within the general prog guidelines. Is her music quirky and different from most other "mainstream music?" Sure, but so was XTC, The Tubes and a lot of other bands. It doesn't make them prog. Art rock sure but not true prog imo. Something can be progressive(which I'm sure Bjork is)without being prog rock. Yes, I know Bjork is on this site but so is Tori Amos. 

I guess it's all irrelevant to this topic anyway since the first Bjork album came out around 1993 or so which makes her a little late to the party regardless of we want to define her music.  


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 02 2019 at 00:09
Something by Iron Maiden ( The Number Of The Beast is the obvious one but could easily go Powerslave , Somewhere In Time or Seventh Son). Tracks like Phantom Of The Opera and Ryme Of The Ancient Mariner were certainly way more than just 'metal'. I remember reading in the 80's an interview with IM after Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son where they considered themselves to be a prog band just like Yes, Genesis etc and not a branch of Heavy Rock ( ie Zep , Sabbath etc) . I'm not sure I really agreed at the time but now it makes sense. Prog has moved in a heavier direction generally. Maiden were ahead of the game maybe?


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 02 2019 at 11:45
Iron Maiden bass player Harris was a considerable prog-head...so good call...

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 02 2019 at 12:15
Judging from most suggestions here "modern prog" is a combination of a few slightly complex heavy metal-tunes and a simplified and poppier version of 70's prog - with synths. Doesn't sound right to me. Neo prog and sophisticated NWOBHM has more of a "last romantics during the beginning of modernism"-feel, than an actual birth or rebirth of anything.


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: May 02 2019 at 12:36
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Something by Iron Maiden ( The Number Of The Beast is the obvious one but could easily go Powerslave , Somewhere In Time or Seventh Son). Tracks like Phantom Of The Opera and Ryme Of The Ancient Mariner were certainly way more than just 'metal'. I remember reading in the 80's an interview with IM after Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son where they considered themselves to be a prog band just like Yes, Genesis etc and not a branch of Heavy Rock ( ie Zep , Sabbath etc) . I'm not sure I really agreed at the time but now it makes sense. Prog has moved in a heavier direction generally. Maiden were ahead of the game maybe?

Do you recall where you read that article where Maiden in the 80's...said they were prog more than metal..?
Just curious.
Smile


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 02 2019 at 23:44
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Something by Iron Maiden ( The Number Of The Beast is the obvious one but could easily go Powerslave , Somewhere In Time or Seventh Son). Tracks like Phantom Of The Opera and Ryme Of The Ancient Mariner were certainly way more than just 'metal'. I remember reading in the 80's an interview with IM after Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son where they considered themselves to be a prog band just like Yes, Genesis etc and not a branch of Heavy Rock ( ie Zep , Sabbath etc) . I'm not sure I really agreed at the time but now it makes sense. Prog has moved in a heavier direction generally. Maiden were ahead of the game maybe?

Do you recall where you read that article where Maiden in the 80's...said they were prog more than metal..?
Just curious.
Smile
 

I can barely recall yesterday but this sticks in my mind because it was surprising to me at the time. Probably read it in Kerrang which I was occasionally reading at the time.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 04 2019 at 11:46
If you read the Iron Maiden biography, Harris lists Close to the Edge and Selling England by the Pound as two of his favorite albums and influences on his writing...

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: May 04 2019 at 11:58
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Something by Iron Maiden ( The Number Of The Beast is the obvious one but could easily go Powerslave , Somewhere In Time or Seventh Son). Tracks like Phantom Of The Opera and Ryme Of The Ancient Mariner were certainly way more than just 'metal'. I remember reading in the 80's an interview with IM after Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son where they considered themselves to be a prog band just like Yes, Genesis etc and not a branch of Heavy Rock ( ie Zep , Sabbath etc) . I'm not sure I really agreed at the time but now it makes sense. Prog has moved in a heavier direction generally. Maiden were ahead of the game maybe?

Do you recall where you read that article where Maiden in the 80's...said they were prog more than metal..?
Just curious.
Smile
 

I can barely recall yesterday but this sticks in my mind because it was surprising to me at the time. Probably read it in Kerrang which I was occasionally reading at the time.

Thanks......I just thought that was a bit strange since everyone I know offline that like Maiden think they are a 'metal band'....with a few prog hints.
But I am aware that Harris is a huge fan of prog.


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: May 04 2019 at 12:07
I can't imagine anyone living in the UK in the '70s not being influenced by Genesis, Yes, ELP, Tull, Floyd, etc.

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Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: May 04 2019 at 12:16
I think prog and metal have always been a little intertwined. Even in early prog, there's a lot of heavy riffing (Schizoid Man, Peel The Paint, Heart Of The Sunrise, etc.), and early metal bands had a focus on longer, instrumental sections, big dynamic contrasts, fantastical lyrical content - and by the late 70s a huge emphasis on guitar virtuosity (think guys like Van Halen, Randy Rhoads, Yngwie Malmsteen, etc.). Iron Maiden doesn't really stand out to me as being way more prog than other metal bands (more prog than the average glam metal band, sure).


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