Sorry if the topic has already been discussed, I haven't seen it on the forum.

I'm quite surprised Avenged Sevenfold are not on PA, even in the prog-related category.

The band has successfully achieved a coherent mixture of traditional and modern metal, including elements of other genres (symphonic, music-hall...).

To me, they're much more innovative than most of the "so-called" prog metal bands. Furthermore, there are already side-projects from A.S. members on PA.

The first track is interesting but we would need a full album to evaluate as scattered "innovative" modern metal samples won't do the trick.

Can you suggest an album for us for starters? Thanks 

The self-titled and their last one, "The Stage".

Sums up my thoughts, not there yet but surprisingly different to what I was expecting. I am waiting for some team feedback on this

I also recommend to listen to their 2007 self-titled album.

They've not tried innovative mixtures only recently ;-)

I think the watch list is the best way to go about this. I know the criteria is that a band has to have at least one "entirely prog" album to make it to the list (and I do consider The Stage a prog metal album), but Avenged Sevenfold is a tougher one to consider when given their musical history. Also, the fact that it's not always advisable to be overzealous about calling a group prog just based on a new album that happens to be more progressive, as we don't know if their career trajectory will continue to reflect this shift. With that said, however, if a poll were to be created, I'd be happy to vote "yes" for the band to be included. As I stated, I do see The Stage as a legit prog effort, and past albums such as Waking the Fallen and City of Evil had quite a few prog touches - such as nonlinear song structures, classical/orchestral elements, superb musicianship, etc. So I guess we'll see what happens. :)

Welp, looks like that didn't end up happening 

I mean there are still another 7 days left in Q2 of 2022... who knows, maybe it'll be another spontaneous drop like their last release on June 30th

We should still wait for the next album drop to review them. I would definitely like to see them in "prog related"

I don't see that happening since they allegedly have a 78-piece orchestra (and they keep talking about it lol)

I'm expecting something in the pseudo-progressive symphonic avant-garde metal territory, along the lines of Diablo Swing Orchestra - either that or they're going full Dream Theater. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Unless their "Metallica worship" is worshipping their S&M live albums, I doubt they'd need the said alleged 78-piece orchestra for that

Well we have it, June 2nd, 2023. That's the drop date... a year later than we'd hoped, but nevertheless it's going to be here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Is_but_a_Dream..." rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Is_but_a_Dream...

Here's their single, "Nobody." Frankly, I do not know what to make of it - indeed it is bold, but no more so than it is dull. This is pretty much exactly what I thought the sound was going to be like, but I thought it would have been a lot more interesting than this, honestly - the whole song was a drag, and they definitely took a risk with this one. A lot of people have complained about production here, but frankly, I think it's a considerable step up from The Stage, but the vocal work is less than satisfactory, imo. Prog, idk know about. Avant-garde? Definitely! It is indeed interesting to see how this will fit into the rest of the album... the whole thing will either be one prog opus, with this avant-garde alternative metal fitting into it nicely, or the whole album will be... well, this. The band had two options after The Stage - either refine and hone-in on the sound they created then, which did indeed need some improvement, or push their boundaries further into uncomfortable territory for them, and it seems like they chose the latter. Although with other songs like A Little Piece of Heaven, I'd thought they could handle this symphonic avant-garde sound well. Hopefully this is just a fluke, but that's not to say there are no redeeming factors here. For one, the animation is really vibrant and interesting, the guitar solo is really good (and I'm not usually the type to care for solos), and the atmospheric qualities are utilized well. I also think they nailed the engineering, here. The song does not sound tinny and compressed, like The Stage, but there's still enough dynamism that there's very little clipping, as opposed to their work before The Stage... frankly, I'd say it's their best engineered album (if the whole thing sounds like this) thus far, and actually a great example of how to engineer a metal song in 2023 (which most metal bands STILL can't seem to figure out). It's just a bit meandering and repetitive for me, without enough direction.

I'd say it's a 50/50 chance this album could land them in the Progarchives based off of this, and I'm not too optimistic.

Edit: I also LOVE the new art direction they're heading in for this album! Look at this adorable new deathbat... LOOK AT IT!

Oh my, now this is what I'm talking about :) This one makes the last single sound like a pop song holy sh*t, no wonder that's why they chose that one. That's a good sign.

Another single dropped, and this is what I was hoping for for the album - pure progressive avant-garde metal. We're talking highly over-the-top experimentation. My hope for the album has been restored and if this is more representative of the album than the last single, the band is an obvious inclusion for Prog Related, no doubt.

I'll review this tomorrow, here :)

So the album's out.

It's AWESOME! By far the best album they've ever put out, and easily their most progressive (it makes The Stage look non-progressive in comparison).

In a few days, once I've absorbed the album and can make an argument for them I'll revive this suggestion. I'm actually going to go for post/experimental metal, rather than progressive metal, since this is the album we're going off of here, since The Stage didn't cut it. Their future is looking more in the experimental direction than traditional prog, anyway.

I'd have pushed for Prog-Related before the release of this album, but now I'd rather see them in Post/Experimental - there are two ways to go about this. Either add them to Post/Experimental Metal for this album, or add them to Prog Related for their entire career.

In any case, here's their album: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpSW6gVRk77GuNqJWnSwjF2ZbL1m0VCgB

And as of this minute, their RYM genre tags are Avant-garde Metal and Progressive Metal, with a whopping 3.81 rating, which is great for that site and by far their highest score on the site. The wait was well worth it. https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/avenged-sevenfold/life-is-but-a-dream%E2%80%A6/

My only complaint is that the clean vocals on the album are absolutely grating at times - and yes, M. Shadows is once again regularly using harsh vocals, and they sound great!

Edit: This may make my AotY endlist - it's that good.

True, they have released 8 albums, 2 out of those 8 have progressive elements. I don't know or see how this band would be cleared for progressive metal (or exp/post). 

really, now Symphony X and DT are under doubt?!

There you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mZH7rTXaaQ&list=WL&index=11&ab_channel=BradleyHall" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mZH7rTXaaQ&list=WL&index=11&ab_channel=BradleyHall

I don't share his enthusiasm for the album. 

One of the best prog album ever? It's not (even close to) one of the best of 2023 (and we're not half way through yet). 

But regardless of whether one likes it or not, it is definitely, 100%, a progressive album.

We''ve already established in this thread that their two most recent albums are 100% progressive metal. And the rest of their discography has prog tendencies, as well, to varying degrees as you implied.

For a brief breakdown:

2001 - Sounding the Seventh Trumpet = Melodic Metalcore, mostly demo quality recordings (no prog)

2003 - Waking the Fallen = Melodic Metalcore + Heavy Metal, some prog tendencies, here and there

2005 - City of Evil = Heavy Metal + some Melodic Metalcore riffing, and maybe some Alt Metal and Hard Rock undertones, + tons of prog elements and even some straight up prog moments

2007 - eponymous = Heavy Metal + Groove Metal + Alternative Metal, some avant-garde moments and lots of experimentation, and maybe some minimal prog tendencies, and one 8 minute Avat-garde Metal opus

2010 - Nightmare = Heavy Metal + Hard Rock + some Alternative Metal and Alternative Rock, lots of progressive moments, and one 10 minute straight up progressive metal opus

2013 - Hail to the King = Classical Heavy Metal + Classical Hard Rock, no prog whatsoever (let's pretend this one never happened)

2016 - The Stage = Progressive Metal + Heavy Metal, and lots of progressive rock, including one 15 minute progressive metal/rock opus

2023 - Life Is but a Dream = Progressive Metal + lots of Avant-garde Metal + lots of Alternative Metal + a little bit of Symphonic Prog

There's enough prog throughout their career, even before 2016 for me to like to see them in Prog related for the very same reasons Muse is there - and apparently I'm not the only one who see's parallels to A7X and Muse, especially in their newest album; 2016's The Stage solidified them as a necessity for prog related, and 2023's LIbaD now poses the question of whether they should be in prog related or progressive/post-exp metal proper.

I think we're all in agreeance, myself included, that A7X should be added to Prog Related, since their pre-2016 material doesn't cut it for true prog metal, but their newer material absolutely would - let's say A7X disbanded in 2015 and reformed in 2016 under a new name, let's call them "Band X" in this hypothetical, "Band X" almost certainly would have been added to Progressive Metal if not in 2016, then definitely this month. However, they did not rename and they're using the same alias as they did in 1999. The height of their career has long passed and their prog material will likely never reach the same level of popularity as their, for all intents and purposes, "non-prog" material. Thus, A7X is not remembered as a prog metal band, but a pop metal band with prog tendencies who later became prog metal. On the other hand, it looks like the band's career from here on out is going to remain in a more experimental realm, and thus at the present, and most likely future, they ARE a prog band, despite not necessarily being one historically. This leads to the argument that since Avenged Sevenfold IS prog band (even though they WEREN'T) that they should be included in progressive metal proper, as this site archives all progressive acts, which A7X is (at least at the moment).

Either argument is okay in my eyes, but I think most people would agree with the former (although I'm beginning to lean towards the latter, the more I think about it). At this point, because the band has released straight up progressive albums, their influence on and from progressive music cannot be ignored, and thus not including them on this site, whether they're in prog related or prog metal, would make this a less comprehensive prog database, even if by lacking in a single band that was considered for evaluation, and thus not a fair archival of prog. Therefore the band should be included in one capacity or another. I should also add for non-fans of the band that pre-2016 A7X is "prog-related" for the same reasons that Metallica is. At times, the band has even been deemed a Metallica worship band. That is the guitarist (Synyster Gates) is highly virtuostic and the band's songwriting is often expansive, unconventional, and "proggy," if you will, to accommodate this, such that songs often feel like a journey that starts in one place, goes somewhere else, and ends in a completely place than they started. A great example of this would their songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imwmmv9r1oE" rel="nofollow - Buried Alive and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXeKkDfeujY&list=OLAK5uy_m9t32qSSpO8I_90deB7tWsQcbUwxoFD7Q&index=7" rel="nofollow - The Sidewinder (the latter of which I would call proper progressive metal).

Again, I think most people who have been paying attention here would agree with A7X being added to prog related. But "most people's" opinion here doesn't matter. Only the opinion of the site Admins matter in this case. If they have never listened to this band before, and they go to Youtube to look at their biggest singles, as many people do when first learning of a band, they aren't going to get a fair understanding of the band's progressive tendencies, since their biggest singles are their least progressive. So in this regard, we're at the mercy of the Admins' and how they decide to view the artist. The dilemma here, though, is if A7X is directly rejected from Progressive Metal, because we'd all rather see them in Prog Related, but the the site Admins haven't been following this discussion and they reject the band, then they won't be able to be included on this site at all. This is a problem as per paragraph 2 that states that rejecting A7X would make this site a less complete archival of progressive music, at which point, it would have been better to add them to Progressive Metal than to hope for their inclusion in Prog Related. In this regard it's better to not take the risk of total rejection from the site than it is to have the band in a less satisfactory category here. Since the band CAN potentially be included in Progressive Metal proper, it's probably safer to go with that, despite the community belief thus far that they're better off for Prog Related.

This is what separates A7X from Muse - Muse has never released a full-fledged progressive rock album, despite their consistent use of experimental ideas and progressive tendencies. Calling them a "progressive rock" band isn't really accurate. But to deny them of their prog tendencies does the band a disservice, and thus the only place on a prog archival site like this for them to satisfactorily be situated is indeed "Prog Related." The way I see it, Prog Related exists for that purpose - only for bands that cannot be excluded from a prog archival site, but are not actually progressive rock. In the case of A7X, they ARE Progressive Metal, at this moment, despite whatever past they may have had. If their past isn't considered "prog related" enough for inclusion there (and since they have not yet been added to the site despite their popularity, chances are it isn't), then we have the dilemma I brought up in paragraph 3. Basically, if there IS an argument to include a band in Progressive Metal, than they SHOULD be included in progressive metal, if the consensus is that they're necessary for addition on the site, rather than to gamble with a harder category that wasn't quite meant for the band that would mean the exclusion of said necessary band. In other words, and to essentially repeat myself, Prog Related only really exists as a last resort option for bands who can't otherwise be considered for addition to this site, because the evaluators don't deem them "prog enough," but to ignore them from a database of prog does the band an injustice. Avenged Sevenfold IS Progressive Metal right now (and the key words here are "right now," which is what is making this one contentious) and therefore, to avoid a less satisfactory result of not having them on the site at all, it's better to look at them for Progressive Metal instead of Prog Related, and then to move to Prog Related ONLY if there's no way they can otherwise be added to the site.

Thus, and ultimately, for contentious bands such as Avenged Sevenfold, or even Nevermore, there should be an option to have a community consensus on the band's inclusion or have the ability for coordination between the site Admins, who handle Prog Related, the Prog teams, and the submitter of the band, so that the best possible option is chosen for the most satisfactory possible outcome. And thus I would like to ask the Admins here if there is a way to consider this band, initially for Prog Related, given the complicated nature of this band's discography in relation to prog music, before moving on to Progressive Metal, or if it is possible to have a community consensus for the band in this case?

And Gordy, you're supposed to send them to a site Admin. I guess, since Logan has been kind of in discussion here about this, due to my Avatar suggestion, maybe try him sending them to him.

No idea why this band gets so much hate and has such low ratings across the board.

The new album is 100% progressive. Hope they make the cut.

Great direction this band has turned without losing that alt metal edge.

The album "The Stage" is also a nice mix of prog metal and thrash metal.

The team is already quite split right now  For what it's worth though, I voted yes 

Again, yes their very early stuff was melodic metalcore, and their "popular" phase of their career was Guns N Roses meets Metallica meets Iron Maiden-esque heavy metal, with their own alternative spin during their self-titled era, but as I stated before, this stuff is "proggy," in a comparable way to Metallica and Muse, with them even delving into straight up Dream Theater territory years before The Stage was released. Whether or not these moments are "good prog" is up for debate, similarly to The Grand Illusion-era Styx, eg. they weren't "good" prog, per se, but prog they were, but their 2010 song "Save Me," which sounds like it could have come straight out of a Dream Theater album, as I mentioned a while back, is pretty much universally considered to be amongst the band's best work to date, for one example. You'll have to pay close attention to the band and the details of their sound to really pick it up, despite what they may sound like on the surface, and I appreciate Gordy for taking the time to do this. As I stated a while back, again, once you can get past the band's cringey image, over-the-top metal cliches, and juvenile lyrics pre-2016, there's a lot to unpack with them.

For everyone analyzing the band, the notable albums are Life is But a Dream..., The Stage, City of Evil, and Nightmare, in that order. Sounding the Seventh Trumpet and Hail to the King are NOT prog whatsoever, so those ones should just be skipped entirely to save time, because you won't find anything good, there - the band almost made it to the Encyclopedia Metallum, but due to the album release of Hail to the King, they were denied. That's how bad that one was, and it'd be a shame for them to be rejected here because that one left a sour impression. Their eponymous album and Waking the Fallen have prog moments, but are not as notable as the four I gave above.

But tbh, MMA labeling those releases as "metal-related" is fine too

It's not that nobody cares, that's an exaggeration, I guess BBT in crossover does not bother people. If you think the artist's subgenre needs to be changed, that is wrong, make a case for it and a change will be made for sure. 

I agree that Haken shouldn't be in heavy-prog.

Subsignal is in neo-prog (I disagree here, I will make a case when I have the time). 

And some other artists are in the same situation, a discussion at least won't do any harm. 

Precisely my view, and one, BTW, which is shared by the bulk of the progressive rock community, especially artists and journalists.

None of that is meant as a criticism, it's just how I perceive things work around here. 

Ironically Haken is listed as heavy prog and should be prog metal

While Riverside is listed as prog metal and should be heavy prog!

This site is woefully outdated and i don't really get bothered by these things.

Only a multiple tagging system is relevant at this stage.

The site really should be completely reworked.

I 100% agree with you here, both about Haken & Riverside and the tagging system. I've been strongly critical of the tagging system in the past, and I really think doing by-album instead of by-artist would be huge for keeping ProgArchives relevant.

Great, I'm happy they cleared on this site, and I'm glad it was a battle worth having here!

I'll write up a review or two after their formal addition to the site, to get them started!

Necrotica wrote: I'll add the band tonight once I'm off work. I never thought I'd ever see these guys on PA, but those last two albums really turned everything around

lmk when you're doing it; I'll help you with the tedious task of adding the albums

Necrotica wrote: Studio full-lengths have been added, although for some reason, the artwork for Waking the Fallen and Hail to the King isn't showing up. I'll see if I or the admins can edit that part

Yeah it seems I'm a little late sorry

but I got the live albums and the EPs, so there's that!

I accidentally did Black Reign twice, so please delete the one with the incomplete information. Also for both Live at the LBC and Diamonds in the Rough, the drummer should be credited as "The Rev."

Edit: lmao you also beat me to the review. Here I am outlining a brand new review when you already had one written five years ago Eh, I'll publish mine tomorrow. I need a break from my computer for a bit

I wrote a review for Life is but a Dream, but it doesn't seem to be showing up on the homepage. Is there a way to do this?

Necrotica wrote: If you already rated it before submitting a review, unfortunately it won't show up as a new review. It's a weird situation, and I had to find out the hard way  Your best bet would be to ask one of the admins to delete your rating/review so you can resubmit it

I get it. Fine I'll have them do that later.

Dude, don't even bother. If BTBAM isn't going to make it to MA, Avenged never will either. I've already fought that battle and it was completely futile. That site is a complete joke 

From what I understand, there's a small group of admins who are really bitter about certain artists being requested on a daily basis, and they basically blacklisted them out of spite

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/list.php?memberid=1061284&listid=198651" rel="nofollow - https://www.sputnikmusic.com/list.php?memberid=1061284&listid=198651

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I don't like it for several reasons, but I'm not using it everyday, so you're probably correct about the usability. One big usability problem for me would be that it's not mobile friendly / responsive. Wouldn't want to use it on my iPhone.

Absolutely it is not built for mobile devices - yes it's a bit harder to use on a phone, but I HATE this new era of mobile first. 99% of the time, mobile sites are cramped, crowded, and make me feel claustrophobic. Frankly, I'd rather use a desktop site on a phone than a mobile site a computer. I can't even use the new Reddit it's so bad.

To be fair, The Progarchives is not made with mobile devices in mind, yuet I find it works perfectly on my phone. But yes, the MA may be one of the few cases where some enhancements for mobile users may be nice. I was speaking purely from a computer point of view.

Also, the developers didn't really have database crawling in mind when creating the site. And that's a good thing. Do you know why Google searches have notoriously gone to sh*t over the past five years? It because every other site is trying to get a result on Google by making their content TOO easy to be crawled. It's flooded Google's result with crap.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I've looked at metal-archives.com - not the best example of how you build a website in 2023, or even 2010. Might end up crawling it for new releases ... on the other hand, I already crawl MMA and there's too much irrelevant noise coming in. I understand where completionists are coming from, but seriously, who has the time to listen through so much crap?

Please, Mike, don't create an MAbot for TYM... I'm already not a fan of the RYM and PA bots, and as I've discussed to death in other threads, the MA is the lowest bar there is when it comes to genre accuracy; they're even worse than Wikipedia, which is saying something. I mean they've rejected Avenged Sevenfold for not being a metal band (BS, we all know it), and have banned several users for challenging an incorrect genre tag of a band on their database, and thus they really can't be taken seriously - they're certainly not professional enough.
Perhaps providing an MA link for the albums, like you have for Musicbrainz, currently, is a better idea so users can see the reviews from that site.

Also:

Yep. I was ahead of the curve when regarding A7X as a progressive band, and I'll happily accept those flowers 

Seriously though, I was waiting for an excuse to post that review on PA, and I'm glad that the proginess of LIBAD was able to facilitate that 

I beg to differ - the lowest bar for genre accuracy is metacritic.com. It seems like they are using the record-store type genre assignments from decades ago. You know, you would go to a record store, and most of the music you liked would be in the "Pop/Rock" section, even death metal and avant stuff. Example: https://www.metacritic.com/music/o-monolith/squid" rel="nofollow - https://www.metacritic.com/music/o-monolith/squid is even referred to as "post-punk" in the description, but the genre is still "Pop/Rock".

I only considered crawling MA to pick up new releases, but as I said above, by crawling MMA there's already more than enough metal releases in the pipeline.

bardberic wrote: If there's one really good site to crawl, it's Musicbrainz. From my experience they're the most accurate and well-constructed music database that actually has good moderation. Although I know you don't like musicbrainz because you find it too complex to use. Honestly, none of the major metal databases are "crawl-worthy" in my opinion. For some reason, metalheads seem to not be very professional at running websites, and aren't exactly friendly enough to hold engaging dialogue. I suppose Metal Kingdom is the best of the bunch, but a huge chunk of that site is in Korean, and I STILL wouldn't call them totally accurate. The MMA is just not popular enough, which is a shame because it'd be the best if it had a larger user-base.

MB is a really cool site because they have an API, so there is no need to "crawl" the websites. Are they reliable when it comes to genres though? For new releases, the problem with MB is that there is a lot of noise coming in, like stuff that's not even proper releases. They are great for looking up info on old releases, like cover art or tracklists. Discogs is even better, but they don't have an API ...

Well I've always considered A7X as progressive, ever since I first heard them in 2012 as a 14 y/o before I even understood prog was (so I'm regarding them as such retrospectively) :) At this point, when I purchased Nightmare in 2012, Save Me was the longest song I had in my iTunes library, and the first song I owned that breaches the ten minute mark, it was also really what sparked my interest in transitioning from rock to metal, and into prog territory as well.

In fact, this band is what got me into prog in the first place. I've told this story numerous times here. In January 2017, I started university and decided to get a turn table (because that's what 19 y/os do I guess), and at the record store, I found The Stage (which I didn't even know they released) and blindly got it. For the previous few weeks in my dorm, one of my neighbors introduced me to prog via Rush and Yes (he had bith their entire catalogues on vinyl), and when I played The Stage, I was like "wait, these guys are prog af, no wonder I liked them so much five years ago." So yeah, aside from Kansas, which I had casually listened to for about six years prior to this, The Stage was my first progressive metal album, and thus my first foray into the world of prog.

If you read the arguments a few pages back, you'll see that had the band been rejected for prog metal proper, my main argument for their inclusion in prog related is that they've always acted as an introductory band into the prog realm, and they have a notoriously large fanbase who would later become Dream Theater fans, so in this regard they're highly influential in progressive metal because of their accessibility - and if you read my LibaD review, you'll see that I highlight HOW they're accessible, yet progressive, which is hard to balance. In short, the band may not be the BEST nor most progressive prog band, but they're a strong starting point for the realm of prog.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: bardberic wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I've looked at metal-archives.com - not the best example of how you build a website in 2023, or even 2010. Might end up crawling it for new releases ... on the other hand, I already crawl MMA and there's too much irrelevant noise coming in. I understand where completionists are coming from, but seriously, who has the time to listen through so much crap?    Please, Mike, don't create an MAbot for TYM... I'm already not a fan of the RYM and PA bots, and as I've discussed to death in other threads, the MA is the lowest bar there is when it comes to genre accuracy; they're even worse than Wikipedia, which is saying something. I mean they've rejected Avenged Sevenfold for not being a metal band (BS, we all know it), and have banned several users for challenging an incorrect genre tag of a band on their database, and thus they really can't be taken seriously - they're certainly not professional enough.  I beg to differ - the lowest bar for genre accuracy is metacritic.com. It seems like they are using the record-store type genre assignments from decades ago. You know, you would go to a record store, and most of the music you liked would be in the "Pop/Rock" section, even death metal and avant stuff. Example:  https://www.metacritic.com/music/o-monolith/squid" rel="nofollow - https://www.metacritic.com/music/o-monolith/squid  is even referred to as "post-punk" in the description, but the genre is still "Pop/Rock". I only considered crawling MA to pick up new releases, but as I said above, by crawling MMA there's already more than enough metal releases in the pipeline. bardberic wrote: If there's one really good site to crawl, it's Musicbrainz. From my experience they're the most accurate and well-constructed music database that actually has good moderation. Although I know you don't like musicbrainz because you find it too complex to use. Honestly, none of the major metal databases are "crawl-worthy" in my opinion. For some reason, metalheads seem to not be very professional at running websites, and aren't exactly friendly enough to hold engaging dialogue. I suppose Metal Kingdom is the best of the bunch, but a huge chunk of that site is in Korean, and I STILL wouldn't call them totally accurate. The MMA is just not popular enough, which is a shame because it'd be the best if it had a larger user-base. MB is a really cool site because they have an API, so there is no need to "crawl" the websites. Are they reliable when it comes to genres though? For new releases, the problem with MB is that there is a lot of noise coming in, like stuff that's not even proper releases. They are great for looking up info on old releases, like cover art or tracklists. Discogs is even better, but they don't have an API ... bardberic wrote:  Nevertheless, I'm just not a fan of the autobots to begin with; as you stated they're too noisy and I don't like how they can rate albums, which just echoes the consensus of a different community outside TYM (and RYM has notoriously bad taste). Imagine if another site decided to crawl TYM and their TYMbot rated albums, which used ratings from the TYM autobots. Remember in the other post how I stated that AI will begin to "inbreed?" Well here it is in hypothetical action. Perhaps providing an MA link for the albums, like you have for Musicbrainz, currently, is a better idea so users can see the reviews from that site.  I know what you mean, but the bot tags and ratings do not carry much weight. I will soon reduce the trust rank of these bots to 2, so their input weighs only half as much as that of a normal user. And even if an album has 10k ratings at RYM, that will have no bearing on the TYM result. The bot input is only meant as a seed, to provide some means to sort the releases. There's already more than 1k releases of 2023, you can't listen to all of them in order to find out which are the best ... But yes, one other aspect of the bots is the linking to the external sites. I may very well end up only doing that for MA.