As gun control is not possible...
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Topic: As gun control is not possible...
Posted By: Blacksword
Subject: As gun control is not possible...
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 01:49
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On the back of yet another slaughter in a US high school, and on the understanding that there will never be the political will or means to implemement any kind of gun control, has the time now come to at least take the protection of school children seriously? Should schools in the US be fortifed, with armed guards at the gates, checkpoints, razorwire perimeters, searches for all students, teachers, parents etc upon entering the premises? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Replies:
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 02:13
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Are you from the US? The sad part is this sh*t is becoming normal. The toothpaste can't go back into the tube IMHO. We're absolutely screwed either way at this point. Restricting freedom for safety doesn't really work here because crazy people will still do crazy sh*t. That's not a statement to do nothing at all about it, of course. Lock the schools down, someone will still get a bomb in and turn it into a whole new situation. There is no good solution at this point IMHO. By that, I mean I can't see any solution actually working long-term before someone figures out a new way to get through the layers of fortification. I'm also a cynical/libertarian anarchist, so there's that. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 02:48
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I'd just written a long reply, but it was destroyed by Captcha... I don't have time to re-write it, but in essence I just posed the question. Does the argument that someone may eventually figure out how to ge a bomb through really justify doing nothing at all in the short term to prevent shootings? You have to consider who is carrying out these attacks. They are lone individuals and not members of sophisticated terrorist organisations with contacts on the 'inside' They are far less likely to be able to get bombs through fortifications. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 03:11
No, it doesn't justify doing nothing, and I thought I made that point clear in my above post? I'm just cynical/jaded, living in USA and seeing it happen all the time now. Also, I'm failing to understand how all you PA veterans are getting defeated so often by CAPTCHA? Doesn't everyone CTRL+C their comment before hitting "Reply"?
------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Blacksword wrote:Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 03:17
Yeah, sometimes I do. Sometimes I forget. Also, I tend to only get Captcha when using my work PC running Win7 and IE 12, without adblocking software. When I run Firefox at home on Win10 with adblocker I never get Captcha. Why that should make a difference I don't know. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 04:14
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The best theoretic solution I can think of is some new tech in guns that prevents them from being used unless it's a legitimate reason. When personal liberty includes access to military weapons, that's taking it too far. I will say this: up until a few years ago it was illegal to sell, buy, or carry a switchblade knife in most states including California. Consequently those knives were extremely scarce and only available in places like Mexico. That law was changed, those knives are now legal to own but not carry, and luckily there has been no notable increase in knife violence as far as I know. The point is when you make something strictly illegal to sell or buy, it does make a difference in availability and access . Gun laws need to be changed to reflect an attitude of balance between gun rights and public safety wherein guns are manufactured in smaller quantities and only those of non-military grade. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 04:23
I agree completely, but what do we do when people start "illegally" 3D printing weapons, and manage to do damage before they are detained, etc? You can say legislation all day, but that honestly does very little when mental health is the cause. People are crazy. The weapons are merely a means to an end. Again, I'm not arguing against any form of legislation or protective measures; it's just honestly hard for me to accept that that's going to slow down these massacres. We laugh, but I can see someone figuring out a way to make explosives will perfectly legal stuff even if gun laws are upgraded/made less available. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 04:29
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Sure but are people really crazier now than at any other time? It seems highly unlikely. American culture has gone through civil and world war, race riots, assassinations, economic catastrophe, topsoil destruction, terrorism and suddenly in the past ten to twenty years people are more crazy than they ever were? I mean it ain't Trump's fault this time. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 05:49
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Mental health is an important consideration, but is there any reason why mental health problems should be more prevelant in the US than in Western Europe, Canada or Australia? Even taking guns out of the equation, the US seems a more violent place anyway, than the aforementioned countries. Would you agree, and if so why would that be the case? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 05:53
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This is a subject that highly fascinates me yet at the same time feels so incredibly absurd. Then again I was not brought up in a culture, where guns were available to the general public. We actually never see them unless something very grave happens. They simply look out of place here outside of military ranks and the rare instances where the police is forced to use them. With the amount of people ending up dead on the wrong side of the gun it truly baffles the foreign mind how the US can continue to stick to its guns. If something is called the amendment it is surely by its very definition subject to change? Especially when it is of great danger to the people. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 06:12
I think the problem stems from the belief that if something is a right, then whether or not there is an actual need for it, is irrelevant. It's about a centuries old principle, that the citizenry should be allowed to not only own these weapons, but form into militias to overthrow government if necesssary. I'm surprised there's not been another civil war yet, but that will most certainly happen if any administration announces strict controls by executive order. The hardline crazies even believe that is an infrigement of their liberties to be subject to perfectly sensible background checks when buying assualt rifles. When up against that level of psychosis, the debate is hardly worth having. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 06:37
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Wasn't it Kevin Hart or someone equally random who said that they should just restrict the sales of ammo to the small amount you need to protect yourself in case of emergency? I can't say much against that... ------------- 
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 06:46
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As an ex UK shooter who is now an opponent of firearms in private hands..... Gun control IS possible. The US is the only country in the world where this happens. US gun legislation refers back to a situation in the 18th century and is no longer valid. Private ownership of firearms is not a freedom when that freedom creates a climate of fear. The cost of not having gun control is, frankly, dead children. ------------- |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 06:54
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A bit of a daft analogy here but nevertheless here goes: one of my old friends from Senegal is muslim. He has been one all of his life yet was complerely ostrasized by his community, when he stopped obeying one "law". He eats pork. No real revolution or grand scheme behind this other than he likes the taste of it. Anyway he said to me, that this law surely made sense back in a time, when there were no refridgerators. In such a warm climate pork quickly turns and can become poisenous. Ergo make a public health announcement diguised as divine "law". My point though, however conveluted it may appear, is that laws in general have to be looked at again and again and measured up against society and how they indeed govern the very same. If the opposite seems to be the case, then it either needs to be abolished or indeed amended. The whole thing about overthrowing an evil government is by today's standards ridiculus to say the least. Today the US government owns remote controlled missile launching fighter planes, tanks, helicopters and just about everything else you care to think of in terms of weaponry. Back then things were a little more even. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 07:13
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Absolutely, David. I am failing in my public duty to be armed with a sword today. In certain towns in England, you are supposedly able to kill Welshmen who come over the border after dark. Both were laws which were, until recently, still on the UK Statute Lists. Societies change, laws change. For example, try lighting up a cigarette in the US nowadays. The climate has changed completely. Obviously cigarettes are more dangerous than a 7.62x39. ------------- |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 07:28
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Hah that sounds like something off a Monty Python sketch. There is of course also the whole trust debacle. Do most Americans, or indeed most westeners, trust their governments these days? The amount of misinformation and media nonsense dressed up as "news" often sway people to distrust. I remember when Japan was hit by that tsunami a couple of years back. Thousands of people were saved because they trusted the Japanese governments's instructions. Now I don't for one second believe that Japan is any less susceptible to dirty politicians and being lied to in general, yet there seems to be an underlying belief in the powers that be, at the end of the day, wants the best for its people and generally knows what it's doing. I shudder to think if this catastrophe happens in societies where such trust is lost. So what happens if the US government decides to change the second amendment? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 08:24
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I think the only way to do it is via referendum.... but.... I don't think it's constitutionally possible. Some US reader can confirm the details, but I strongly suspect it would have to come from the US Government. And that will simply not happen. ------------- |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 08:42
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I'm really not trying to be a downer here, but I honestly cannot see a viable solution that will actually work. I'm not a gun owner or enthusiast, despite living in the "Live Free or Die" state. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 09:02
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If I said what I really think of this issue (or others for that matter), I'd make most US people furious with me. What I can say, however, is that nothing is going to happen - except that more and more innocent people will die without a reason. If the right to bear arms is considered to be more important than people's right to live to a reasonably ripe old age - or just to go about their everyday lives without being afraid of being killed or maimed - then there is absolutely nothing that can be done. It's a question of priorities. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 09:02
The solution is an outright ban, but as you suggest, that's not a 'viable' solution. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 09:14
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Just dismantle the NRA and take away the toys. Easier said than done sure but the only way I see taking care of the problem. ------------- "Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar." |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 09:15
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As another user mentions, priorities and values have to shift. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 09:16
| After the Sandy Hook shooting it became obvious America wasn't going to do anything about the gun problem. If 20 first graders getting murdered didn't change anything I don't think anything ever will. Unfortunately the gun lobby here is much too powerful. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 09:56
They're not going to care about a bunch of working class kids. I'm wondering if a mass killing of politicans or high ranking bankers would change their minds. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 09:57
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As long as half the US citizens worship God and guns (equally), there is no solution to this problem. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 09:59
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 10:46
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One would think that after years of "thoughts and prayers" as a solution, some Americans would start realizing that something ain't right. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 12:22
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Even if guns were made "illegal" there's no viable way to retrieve the gazillions of them already on the US streets. As others have said, the toothpaste is out of the tube. That said, if the US continually refuses to address what are likely the underlying causes of these types of violence (mental health issues, violent video games/movies/TV, serious consequences for adult gun owners who do not secure weapon access from their children, 24/7 media coverage that makes the shooter into a celebrity, gaping loopholes in gun control laws, etc) the only thing left is to protect the innocent children at all costs. To me that means it is time to fortify our schools. I think requiring teachers or administrators to carry firearms and essentially become part-time security guards is reckless, but I think schools and the children attending them should be afforded the same protection as a Federal courthouse. Everyone passes through a metal detector at the door (which some schools already do) and armed officers are stationed at exit and entry points. Schools can no longer be open campuses that people can just wander in and out of, there needs to be controlled points of entry. Does it suck to be a kid and grow up in that type of school environment? Absolutely. Does it suck worse to have your child killed on the way to algebra class because some maniac knows that schools are "gun free zones" and all he has to do is walk in and start shooting? The choices that we need to make come down to, freedom vs safety and how to balance them. With every school shooting or terrorist attack we get one step closer to Marshall law. There are simply too many crazies in this country with access to deadly weapons to keep track of. Too many ticking-time-bombs just waiting to be set off by being fired from their job, dumped by the girl/boy friend or disciplined by a teacher/parent. I know in this case the shooter survived and was captured, but it seems in most cases the shooter is happy to "suicide by police". So how do you deter someone from committing violence who is prepared (or in some cases actually wants) to die during the attack taking as many innocents with him as possible? I don't know the answer to this whole mess, but if we don't figure it out as a nation pretty damn quick, the question won't be, "was there a school shooting this week", but "where was this weeks school shooting". "Living in a cage in the USA... All around us the rules are changing... Taller walls and stronger cages..." - Adrian Belew ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 13:49
No because eventually all those guns that are still out there would begin to deteriorate and become unusable (or dangerous to the owner) without continuous care. Which would be fine with me. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 13:50
He may have said this, but I believe it was Chris Rock who said they should sell ammo for something like $5000 a bullet to make people think real hard about firing off 6+ rounds. While this was obviously a comedy bit, it does make me think...the 2nd amendment only accounts for the right to bear arms. While it may be inferred that that means all the accoutrements that go with it, I don't think it's crazy to go after things like bullets and bump stocks and stuff like that interms of making it harder to get (or impossible depending on that gadget) and not have it really be a constitutional thing. Now perhaps there is some court decision that stipulates this and renders my thinking moot, but... ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 13:55
Amending the constitution is truly difficult. Hell, it's only been 27 times in the whole of american history (and one of them is a repealed law that took another amendment to repeal it!). It was would be even more difficult in these very partisan times, especially with something has tension filled as gun control. The 2nd amendment is also apart of the Bill Of Rights and not being a constitutional lawyer I'm unsure, but I would imainge it would be even more difficult to change anything from the first 10 amendments due to this. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 14:00
Several people have said this already, and I agree that it would take a tremendous shift in culture to change something like this so radically. The masses in America love the constitution (even though they hate taxes which the constitution deals with). Or, perhaps more adequately, the masses love the part of the constitution they love and dismiss the parts they dislike. Not to make this a left/right issue, as both sides are guilty of this, but I would even go further and say this tendency goes past American nature into human nature. But that goes a bit beyond the scope of this thread... I guess my point is, I agree. We should work on the constitution periodically to ensure it keeps up with modern standards or at least come at it with modern viewpoints. OF course, being the hyper partisan nature of current American politics, I'm not sure anything will be able to get done, but again, that's a different issue. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 14:04
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As for the question at hand...idk. It may be illogical or purely emotional response, but it just distresses me to even conceive normalizing a world where guns/armed guards/armymen/etc are readily positioned around towns and in the normal corners of life. Clearly I can't speak for everyone (and there are many that feel being surrounded by guns is very safe feelin), but for me personally, is would just keep me on edge all the time. And it moves a little too close to military rule for my liking. But I really can't expound of this further, as it's just a gut feeling of unease and nothing that I can parse out logically/verbally. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 15:29
But why wouldn't it be possibe? Even the pro-gun people could likely agree that you're not normally supposed to use for more than a rare emergency, and if they want to use it for sports they can get a special license for cheaper bullets or something? -------------
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 16:33
Understandable. They look very similar and have similar comedic styles. First off, I think this is the route you have to take to get these things under control. Take the bump stock for example...I have a hard time considering that an arm to bear. (Really the same can be said for bullets but one step at a time here) Now, as I said, I'm not sure if there is legal precedent one way or another in this regard (any type of gun accessory being covered by the second amendment) but I don't often hear this being discussed in serious conversation. Secondly, I think you underestimate the love of guns in America. There are a lot (and certainly incredibly vocal) of people that think even the slightest hoop to jump through to get guns is worse than defecating in the bible. Now sure, most people are for background checks and other sensible things like that, but I don't think any change in the current method will be easy to make without much pushback from the NRA and various other organizations and individuals on the right. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 16:42
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I'd think that would indeed be popular or at least workable, a strong limit on bullet numbers sold (not $5,000 per bullet which is ridiculous and therefore unhelpful). And though I also see gun-righters opposing it, it could be something doable as there are a lot of gun owners appalled at these events and would prefer stronger laws, including a majority of the Law Enforcement community. One other sad reality to understand, I believe, is that the support the NRA gets from conservative politicians is not just because of money or social backing, but because those politicians still believe in what the NRA stands for. And that's what I would call a problem of 'deep politics', which is to say the private, deeply held beliefs people have that are not publicly expressed. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: ProfPanglos
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 17:06
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When I was a kid, we used to settle scores with our fists in an empty lot after school. Seemed adequate enough back in the 1970's. Life was valued, and shooting someone was absolutely unheard of. I just don't get it. There is some kind of weird mental disconnect these days. I see it in a lot of people. Like there is a psychotic severance between cause and effect... I tend to agree with those who say it is some kind of mental health issue - and the issue seems (to me) to be pretty widespread. I have no idea what the solution is. I can only speculate on the cause(s) of it - and I think there are several, it's not one single thing. One thing is for sure, life is no longer valued the way it was in decades past. We live in a throw-away culture, and that includes each other. It's sad.
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 17:46
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Those of us who live in this country are completely numb to all of this nonsense. Those of us who want to retain a lick of sanity finds ways to escape. The whole gun thing goes back to the days of forced Native American removal from lands and slavery patrols. This country does not want to revisit the evil of the past and as a result perpetually exists in a loop played out over and over again. Personally the only thing that will stop this is a complete collapse of the nation state itself and with debt increasing every millisecond as well as a civil war taking place in the covert deep state, it's only a matter of time before it all comes crashing down. Until then, boom boom boom. This is what a collapsing empire looks like -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 18:32
I've spent a lot of time today pondering this thread and the tragic event that lead to it's creation. Columbine was shocking, Sandy Hook was horrific, and now another one. In fact, there's been so many school mass shootings now that I can't even remember them all. Consider that. Children have been murdered in their classrooms so frequently that it now turns into one big blur. I've written several posts today, but each time have ended up deleting it in despair and disgust at what our country has become. Who's going to fix this? Our elected officials? They can't even agree on what color the sky is. Meanwhile, I've not read nor can come up with even a single workable solution that isn't filled with giant holes that make it futile. I'm afraid siLLy puPPy's quote hit the nail on the head of what I've been trying to say all day  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 18:35
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^ And yet many, many people would still rather be here than in other countries with almost zero gun problems. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 18:59
In many cases that is only because the US has occupied and destroyed their economies with our economic hitmen. All one has to do is go back to Operation Paperclip in the 1940s when the US imported all the Nazi scientists and bigwigs who then effectively took over our government and carried out their long term agendas. The whole gun thing is being allowed to happen. It's a mere "thinning out" of the population by the weak in their views. I've done an incredible amount of research into these things and it really seems like a majority of the world's ills are a direct result of US policies and military intervention  ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 19:07
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Nazi scientists & bigwigs took control? No, but the Americans who brought them here were far from angels. I read Operation Paperclip and could barely get through it it was so disturbing, but shootings in the US are not due to some secret nazi-controlled conspiracy, of that I'm pretty sure. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 19:52
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Took control. That's exactly what i mean. The implications of that one project led to a whole covert branch of the government called the black budget. Whistleblower testimonies have given insight into 70 years of advanced technologies withheld from the public. I realize that this probably doesn't compute without a larger picture to gaze upon but there are several factors in play. Firstly, a cabal of power hungry megalomaniacs is determined to take control at any cost. Two, the advent of psychoactive pharmaceuticals to cause this violent behavior is no accident along with the availability of guns. In effect on a metaphysical level, these demonic forces who control us at the moment are nothing more than fear farmers who use false flags and general chaos to manipulate the market forces and society in general. After thousands of hours of various strains of research i have never been more convinced that these things are seemingly random are indeed more masterminded than anyone would like to even fathom. Add to the mix the whole MK Ultra mind control experiements that are only public knowledge due to Nixon accidently bringing out of the classified world. I'm not saying that the gun shootings are a direct cause of Nazi agenda, but they sure fit the overall pattern of consequences from a much larger unseen world just like a fever isn't caused by the heater being on too high. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: mlkpad14
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 20:54
No need to copy. Press submit, and if it does not work, press back once. It should take you bak to Captcha screen. Reload it (and say yes to that submission message that pops up too). Then submit the Captcha form and it should take you through. You never have to return back to any empty post. ------------- https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/ |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 01:37
That's astute, Dave, and 'cause of US history we do tend to mistrust, or I should say just don't have a lot of faith in, authority, which causes a sense of independence to a fault and is taken to the extreme. Sometimes I wish more Americans trusted government, sometimes I'm glad they don't. But it is normal for us, has always been that way and is heightened by rotten wars, suspicious assassinations, and too much money. Having been elsewhere, though, I'd still rather live here because it's my home and it has the potential to prove the benefits of cultural mixing. And it is an indescribably beautiful place. I guess you can't have everything, but yeah people not being shot at school would be a good place to start. I'm curious: Would we want to have some kind of Philip K. Dick tech that instantaneously predicted a person's violent intentions, or would that be too spooky and intrusive ? ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 02:21
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Don't we already have gun legislation from 1934, 1968, and 1994 (assault weapons ban, which I think expired) that doesn't appear to deter much? ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 08:45
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 09:10
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Personal. Not sure they have these sort of studies in universities. I'm a master of many disciplines and love to connect the dots. Between listening to lots of government insiders who broke their silence and learning the lesser emphasized aspects of history, patterns emerge that i cannot shake. I know this may come off as conspiracy theory rants but i only make claims about things that i have had more than enough information to base some sort of conclusion. It helps to understand the elite's Luciferian philosphies and overall plans in which they desire to create a perfect planet that kills off but 500,000,000 people. Their philosophy has everything to do with something called The Law Of One. It is sort of a universal system of laws that dictates that both postiive and negative forces have to announce their intentions in order to respect free will. That means a sophisticated labyrinth of obfuscation that tricks us into giving our free will. Sort of a cosmic loophole if you will. If you think i'm crazy, do check out this declaration of depopulation at a real momument placed in the US state of Georgia. Apparently Hollywood movies are also forms of disclosure, not only of intent but of technologies and forms of control not officially announced to the public. Yep, we live in the Matrix and are all experiencing a serious mindf**k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones" rel="nofollow - Georgia Guidestones - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 09:11
 )------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 09:21
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 09:22
My fear mimics the theme found in Peter and the wolf actually in that when governments have cried wolf so many times in the past, people almost naturally develop a distrust...even when the threat is real. If or when say a meteor or some weird cataclysmic event occurs people need to have at least some trust in whatever information is being given...but therein lies the rub. Again if, by some miraculous widespread political epiphany, the second amendment was to be amended in order to better safeguard the nation's citizens, would people actually believe that? Believe that the government does this to protect the people. My guess is that it only spurs thousands of 9/11-like conspiracy theories about Russia, CIA and Kafka's old swimcoach. Anyway I don't blame you. I don't believe half of what is coming out of the Danish government. It's all icebergs. We see the tip...occasionally. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 10:00
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As far as the second amendment in the US is concerned and rightfully one of the main culprits of the extraordinarily high gun death in this country, part of the equation is how the country was founded. These reasons involve Native American removal from lands and slave patrols to maintain a healthy slave trade. One of my favorite Native American activists Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz has just published a new book titled "Loaded: A Disarming History of the Second Amendment." I have not yet read it but have heard several interviews about her research into the making of it and it's quite revealing about how the US has become the gun dystopia that it is. https://newrepublic.com/article/146190/brutal-origins-gun-rights" rel="nofollow - The Brutal Origins of Gun Rights | New Republic ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 11:57
They did where I went to college! I first learned of many of the concepts you've been discussing when one of my professors assigned Noam Chomsky's, "The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism" to our reading list. After completing that, I found a couple local community college radio stations were broadcasting a long running weekly radio show discussing these concepts in depth. The show was called "One Step Beyond" (later titled, "For the Record") and was run by a political researcher named Dave Emory. Your mention of the expanded scope of Operation Paperclip and other related concepts was covered in depth in an Emory series titled, "How the US lost the 2nd world war". I believe his archives are still available at: http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/DX. Fascinating stuff. ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 13:13
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Well.....being that Trump and the Republicons are mostly in control these days and don't really want any meaningful changes in gun control , we should expect to see more tragic situations occur in public places. Sadly it has become part of American life. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 13:25
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 15:27
Very cool. I'm sure there are some places that teach these things depending on the jurisdiction and dedication of those involved however as a rule colleges are more likely to dissuade from truth digging rather than exploring the murky depths of reality. I went through a phase when i read about 10 Chomsky books but got bored with his style and then moved on to others. One of my biggest sources of knowledge comes from our local Pacifica station KPFA which has a ridiculous amount of excellent programming that is listener sponsored. I listen to several shows on a daily basis. I also scour the internet and listen to lots of insider testimonies that explain the secret space programs, covert black budget projects and overall coverups. In fact there is a website that lists the hundreds of energy machines that are confiscated and classified under the guise of national security if they are over 70% efficient. If i could find it right now i'd share it but i'll have to locate it. While all of this may seem unrelated to gun violence in the US, it actually is not. There are certainly forces that are at play to shred our unique constitution, one that is unlike any other so-called democrat nation on the planet. I know the times are depressiong but i see this as that the cabalistic forces that have been interfering with the democratic will of the populace are lashing out in desperation as they see their days are numbered. Once global cryptocurrencies democratize the internet of value, meaning usurp the traditional duties of the corrupt banking system, it's game over for the parasite economy and the leeches will be forced to adapt to the unthinkable of actually providing value to justify their existence. Times are sad and exciting at the same time. As always life revolves around positive and negative forces engaged in the great cosmic dance, it's only now that there is a quickening as consciousness expands and we are inundated with information overload. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 18:59
Small world! KPFA (Berkeley) and KFJC (Foothill College) were the 2 stations I was referring to. Besides KFJC where I was a regular listener from the 80's until around '07, I believe Dave Emory's shows were also on KPFA and KKUP at various times. Also, Emory would regularly mention being inspired/influenced by fellow researcher Mae Brussell who I believe was a trailblazer in the field and regularly on KPFA in the 80's ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 06 2018 at 13:20
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I'll stick to the OP poll question. Let teachers carry firearms is my pick as well as children should be protected at all costs. Let only teachers that want to and are qualified to use a gun carry them, I don't think Trump is saying "all" teachers. It's not his or anyone in DC's decision to make. It should be a local choice. After 911, I cannot get on a plane without taking off my F'ing shoes, belt and empty my pockets. Soon we will not be able to travel without a passport. So much was put in place to secure airline travel as well as cost. Yes, all schools should be "closed campuses". I went to a HS where it was a closed campus, I could not leave to go to lunch. All visitors had to go to the main office, the whole campus was chain linked fence. Sure there were places you could come in, but we also had radio security walking the campus perimeter and in the morning and afternoon they walked the neighborhood. This is a local govt state issue, that I think local police should be present at EVERY school doing their job of protecting the citizens of their community. We don't need 10 cops at every school, but 1-2 showing presence and walking the perimeter and campus occasionally, especially there during arrival and departure times. Rather than a cop sitting in the Walmart parking lot waiting to arrest someone who stole a $10 shirt or a $15 ham stuffed in their clothes. Gun control is a gigantic issue that will not be solved to anyone's satisfaction anytime soon. Policing/patrolling the schools can happen now, same thing as sitting at a corner waiting for a car speeder, it just needs to be demanded by the local police dept. I do not believe public schools are considered federal property, so it would be a state/local issue on how they manage the school and probably protect the children. Wash DC can provide verbal support and maybe influence but they can't set policy. It's like the mental health issue.....So anyone who has taken/prescribed any medication pertaining to mental health/depression cannot own a firearm? I doubt that ever happens, basically everyone then would fall into that box. It's not an easy fix, protecting the schools should be easy....... -------------   
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 06 2018 at 15:53
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As an American and father and grandfather it certainly worries me....my grandaughter goes to high school in Indiana...plenty of gun owners and pro gun acitvists around here. They have a biannual gun show/sale in my local town where the Country Fairgrounds are. One wonders if all the sales going on there are legal and proper. It seems to me this is by far an American problem though it happens elsewhere also. There is a zeitgeist of guns and pioneer attitude that has never left America even after all these years after the 'west was won'. I honestly believe there is a 'mentality' in a certain segment of American society that actually believes all the paranoid rhetoric about the need to own guns to protect themselves from others as well as the NWO conspiracy memes. Perhaps the mental issues are not only with the 'bad actors' who commit atrocious crimes but with some others as well. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 06 2018 at 16:45
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It's sad but the truth is guns are not going anywhere. I agree the process to own/buy one is too easy and needs to change but that will take a lot of time and debate. What needs no debate is protecting our kids in school, why schools have not been a priority since even before Sandy Hook is beyond me. State/local govt is the issue, they need to mandate that local authorities police the school grounds and make sure there is police presence daily. That can also happen much quicker than instructing willing teachers on how to use a firearm. The local police already exist.........They need to be told to go and protect school grounds, I don't understand why this is not happening at every school. -------------
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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 08 2018 at 09:26
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^I can understand the need for protection on that level but pragmatically one can wonder if it isn't a waste to have a trained professional sit still at a school entrance to prevent something that is expected to happen on average about once in 200 years for that particular school (?), instead of patrolling and trying to stop other less significant but way more common issues. -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 08 2018 at 10:39
Well, and you probably will never be hit by a drunk driver or be run over by a bus or die in an airline accident, as well as go to a concert and be shot at. Yes the chances are slim to none....tell that to the parents that lost their kids. No parent should bury their child. Police common issues, agree. But how many times is a police office going to arrest the person carrying weed in the mall, or pull over the same guy for speeding or go to the same house on Saturday night for playing music too loud. If police presence stops one gunman from shooting up a bunch of kids over a 200 yr span.......well. -------------
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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 09 2018 at 02:37
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Well that's still slanted, security in those places (in your first sentence) is a lot more active, fast and has more roles, for example in making people feel safe. These are also situations where security almost certainly is blocking the threats when they occur, while a policeman in front of a school won't even be of any help if the shooter comes in through another door or a window, or when the shooter gets a surprise shot at the officer (it's not realistic that a policeman is ready to pull a gun extremely rapidly 8 hours a day), or when the shooter instead decides to wait around the corner or go to some other place where the children usually come, and on top of that I think having a policeman at the entrance of the school will generally make children feel anxious and less safe rather than more safe (a known effect of police presence), which would also be a pity. I'm not completely opposed to the idea, but what about if you just give the principal's office a view at the entrance, like having it right next to the entrance, and giving him a gun to leave next to his desk in case of emergency? -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 09 2018 at 02:44
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What it seems to keep coming back to is indeed access to guns: not mental illness, not angry people or criminal behavior (which is not controllable anyway). Americans are addicted to liberties, real and perceived, and like anything else, too much of something is never good. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: March 09 2018 at 03:11
| How about making the schools more like prisons? That way you would only have to strip the kids of their weapons once, and with a thorough enough body search it would be very unlikely for guns to end up on the premises. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 09 2018 at 11:20
In general we are on the same page.....protecting the kids. My point about what the status of local police do, what they police can be changed. They should be present at all schools, there is very little to no argument as why they should not. Police are to Serve And Protect, their community, which includes schools and children. If a person can enter a school thru a side door/window then that is a design flaw, fix it. All doors should be locked from the outside. Can you enter your local bank from a back or side door? I seriously doubt it. I think the majority of kids feel/think seeing the police is a cool thing, seeing their cruiser with all the lights and a laptop inside a car.....Nothing is 100%, but the right thing to do is for local authorities to protect our children at school, this is not a Wash DC thing. It should be each state capitol mandating the local police to revise patrol schedules to do such, my tax money pays for those police depts. Children feel more anxious at school because of other kids, bullying and online bullying. Gun control is an issue too, nobody who wants to buy a gun needs it tomorrow. The process to buy one should be a 30-60 day process to allow a full background check. You should not be able to go to a gun show and buy a gun and walk out with it. If you have 10 DUIs, you can walk into a car dealership and buy a car and drive it off the lot within 2 hours.....a 3,500lb weapon. So yea, buying guns needs to be revised but that is going to take a long time and serious debate. Same as applying a "mental health" issue to gun ownership, define "mental health"? Someone who has been committed to hospital? Someone who was prescribed depression medication? That's probably 80% of the population, it will never hold up. Guys we have serious mental health issues in the police dept, military, FBI, state troopers...so those people should not have a gun?? Protecting our kids at the local level is the right thing to do, not doing it is wrong. Any other solutions will take way too much time and debate, still needs to happen. -------------
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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 10 2018 at 14:52
I'm not sure how we're supposed to protect kids 'at national level' instead of local if that's what you imply, but yeah, ideally the local police would be in touch with the community, know the risks, know the children and they would be able to be at the scene as quickly as possible when it does go wrong, but that could be done a lot more realistically. -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 10 2018 at 21:45
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I really don't care what the tax money needed to do this is......We are taxed for many more things that never get done anyhow. A 3-5 cent gas tax will probably raise more than enough money, or sales tax increase or property tax. If a few extra 100 $$ a year for a household is too much then you win the argument and nothing should be done or will be done....status quo, and our children will continue to be un-protected in some of our schools and cities.....I say put it to a vote, let the people decide. There is NO argument for not protecting our kids. It's not a Wash DC/Administration thing to handle this issue 100%, the majority is local govt issues. DC can help and/or encourage and probably mandate money be spent to help, which we pay for anyhow. Money is not the issue nor the deterent, people are. My point about the mental health is that will never be addressed, to your point the umbrella is wide and will be beyond out lifetime in "making laws to address that". Every big city in the world has a population of mental health patients that are freely walking the streets, some causing major problems and others just trying to live day to day....That will never change. The school building access issue is fixable, you can make the schools more secure, it is does each city chose to? We cannot not do that just because we think a shooter might climb thru an airduct or down the chimney or pretend to be a teacher or whatever. Again.....I have to take off my shoes to get on a plane nowadays. Airport security was flipped on its head and completely revamped, why can't we do the same at schools? I'm open to any suggestions that can be done quickly, but guns will not go away. Please do not think gun control is the answer, some things need to change on gun control but many more things can be done more quickly. -------------
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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 11 2018 at 08:04
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A few extra 100$ a year means for some family that the children will have to give up their hobby to save this money, I'sd say it's a considerable price for such a half-assed plan. Btw, you said you saw little to no arguments against this plan, not 'protecting our children', why the hell would I be arguing against that? Yes people with mental health problems go untreated sometimes, but that's irrelevant since we already know that some school shooters WERE getting treatment and were still allowed to get a gun, which would be a very easy fix if the government would choose for it. Finally, you can't protect a school like a bank because a safe in a bank doesn't have thousands of people walking in and out every day and it doesn't need windows, and you can't control it like an airport since the controls at airports patiently continue all throughout the day while a school needs to cram in all those people at once at the start of the day. And I seriously wonder how you want to secure a window, if you want kids to be able to get fresh air and look outside you will inadvertently have windows that can be easily broken into. It's a school, not a military base. -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 12 2018 at 15:12
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Thanks....but I'm done. As usual nothing will get done, too much complaining and not enough ideas being thrown out. An idea is better than nothing.....I've had 4 kids go thru pre-k thru HS. Schools can be made safe. -------------
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 13 2018 at 14:11
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It seems to me that protecting schools would be a matter of having only one way in or out...and having codes to control those doors....and then have an armed guard on duty at that area. If the only way in was protected by a guard and everyone was checked before they came in....wouldn't that stop most if not all of these attacks? Of course that wouldn't stop someone out front after school was let out but at least they couldn't get in the building. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 13 2018 at 14:19
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Except for the windows, right? Could you imagine a school building with one door and no windows? -------------
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 13 2018 at 14:33
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When one the last time someone shot people through the windows...that seems not a viable means of access to me. All of the ones that have happened have been a shooter walking in through the 'front door 'for the most part. Or am I mistaken...?
As an example the local high school where I'm at has all doors locked other than the front door....so if you ck everyone out....how did this kid just walk right in at the Florida school...? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: ProfPanglos
Date Posted: March 13 2018 at 14:50
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One way in & out = you're trapped if that point of egress is blocked. Building codes prevent such a thing (for good reason). In larger public/populated facilities, you need to have multiple options for egress in case of fire, not to mention other threats, such as lunatic shooters. There's also that whole problem of getting trampled to death, when large numbers of people are desperately trying to reach that one door... Of course, if there is only one door, and the killer takes out the armed guard "protecting" it... now there'll be a massacre on a much higher scale. That whole one door thing won't work.
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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 13 2018 at 16:32
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 13 2018 at 22:08
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To Panglos... No...all access in is blocked/locked but not when going out......not sure what you are talking about...have you been in a school lately?? The one main door in is a rule in all schools that I know of. You cannot get in through any side or back door. If you require a valid id and frisk ,etc no one wrong gets in. This kid simply walked in the front door apparently. As far as I know no one has ever used windows to shoot or gain access to ...so it must not be all that viable. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: March 14 2018 at 02:59
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You're repeating your post like you haven't read mine, there is absoltely no reason shooters would have entered through windows before now because at least up to now they could simply choose to walk through the front door, and when you make it impossible to enter through the front door a shooter is not a mindless zombie, he can realize that he could also very easily enter through a window, which he would then do. Why would you ignore this risk if you want to protect our children, ay? If you want armed protection so badly, I'd recommend, what I said earlier, put the principal's office at the entrance and give him a gun to keep there, then give the teachers an emergency gun in a safe, fortify all the windows that lead into the hallways (as much as that would suck) and make sure that classrooms which are not in use don't offer easy access into the hallways. -------------
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: March 14 2018 at 10:53
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Warren Harding apparently liked to pee in the fireplace at the White House. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 14 2018 at 22:01
| I personally don't see a problem with having metal detectors or even a security guard. The argument against the metal detectors is it will hold up the students and outside while waiting in line to go through the metal detector is where another shooting will occur. I'm not buying it though. The other option is to just hire security guards. To me this is better than nothing but will make the school feel more like a prison. On the other hand it might deter bullying as a side effect which is fine by me. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 19:50
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 20:07
Does anyone have any reflection on why school shootings? I remember a time when we had none. We used to have Post Office shootings. Now we have none of those to my knowledge. Fashion can be deadly, apparently. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Blaqua
Date Posted: April 04 2018 at 10:08
That's why on this forum you should always copy your message
before posting it… As regards the issue in question, gun situation in the Arming teachers is a dumb proposal, as wannabe killers will change their modus operandi and target the off-guard teachers first. |