A question about prog-related
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Topic: A question about prog-related
Posted By: BaldFriede
Subject: A question about prog-related
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 07:37
I have an interesting question about prog-related: if a band has almost
the same line-up as a certain prog band but does not play prog is it
then prog-related? I think yes, but I would lkike to hear other opinions
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Replies:
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 08:19
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I think one could make a case for that. The question is: does "prog-related" refer to the music or the musicians?
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 08:31
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I would say it depends on the music. If the members of, say, Yes got together and made a real out and out pop or jazz album, would we add them? I guess this is why we haven't added Phil Collins the solo artist yet (have we?)
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 08:44
 chopper wrote:
I would say it depends on the music. If the members of, say, Yes got together and made a real out and out pop or jazz album, would we add them?I guess this is why we haven't added Phil Collins the solo artist yet (have we?) |
On the other hand we have Asia in the database.
Also my question was NOT about solo albums of members of prog bands.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Posted By: Quinino
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 09:11
^ Good question, but I can't see how to exclude solo artists from this debate, it's all about the same global criteria and how it should be applied, no?
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 09:16
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From the official definition: "3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre."
So why isn't Phil Collins here exactly?
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 09:16
BaldFriede wrote:
chopper wrote:
I would say it depends on the music. If the members of, say, Yes got together and made a real out and out pop or jazz album, would we add them?I guess this is why we haven't added Phil Collins the solo artist yet (have we?) |
On the other hand we have Asia in the database.
Also my question was NOT about solo albums of members of prog bands.
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Well, Asia are sort of proggy aren't they?
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 09:20
Quinino wrote:
^ Good question, but I can't see how to exclude solo artists from this debate, it's all about the same global criteria and how it should be applied, no?
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There is a slight difference: You may have noted that I talked about line-up. A solo artist's line-up of an album does not necessarily consist mostly of prog musicians. And that's what the question is about.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 09:21
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Interestingly Japan are under prog-related, but Rain Tree Crow (exact same lineup, no more proggy) are under Crossover Prog, and I'm assuming both are here mostly because of a few of David Sylvian's solo albums.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 09:54
Vompatti wrote:
From the official definition: "3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre."
So why isn't Phil Collins here exactly? |
One word: Sussudio.
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Posted By: Quinino
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 09:54
BaldFriede wrote:
Quinino wrote:
^ Good question, but I can't see how to exclude solo artists from this debate, it's all about the same global criteria and how it should be applied, no?
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There is a slight difference: You may have noted that I talked about line-up. A solo artist's line-up of an album does not necessarily consist mostly of prog musicians. And that's what the question is about.
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OK, but on the other hand the driving force behind the solo album is the artist (composer/performer/producer?) member of the original prog band
So my argument stands - though I understand it was not your initial idea to be so comprehensive in your question
In the end what should count is the music but exceptions already exist and IMO rightly so - it's better to risk being over-inclusive than to exclude the borderline cases in the name of some "purity" conception.
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Posted By: Quinino
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 09:57
^ Except PC, as SteveG cleverly noticed 
SteveG wrote:
One word: Sussudio.
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 10:08
Quinino wrote:
SteveG wrote:
One word: Sussudio.
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A brilliant pop song, and actually quite complex underneath when you really listen to it, that bass line alone is worthy of the eclectic crossover prog label.
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 10:12
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I've never quite been able to understand prog related. My impression is that prog related bands tend to be well known. While an obscure band may be "prog related" in the style they play and their influences, they might not get onto PA even in the PR category because they just aren't influential enough
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 10:46
Vompatti wrote:
From the official definition: "3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre."
So why isn't Phil Collins here exactly? |
That's a point I've always wondered about. Phil had issued some dreadful stuff, particularly the No Jacket Required album and everything he released from 1993 onward. His remaining three studio efforts did have some artsy moments scattered about on them. But nonetheless, the last sentence of section 3 does apply here. A caveat should have been added to section 3 if you really wanted to avoid the "Collins case." Even the final section applies: "7) Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture. A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven', David Bowie's 'The Man Who Sold the World' or Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Probably so." If I were to write an "exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock," Phil Collins' solo career would be covered. It really is tied in with Genesis' history from 1981 until Phil left the band. It's not pretty, but neither were many other prog bands' 1980s output. And I am trying to be impartial here. For the record, I can't stand his solo stuff. My apologies for derailing the topic. I'm fully aware it has come up in the past. 
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 11:07
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Face Value is stronger than Abacab (IMHO)......
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 11:52
A couple of things:
1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....
2) Prog related is not prog.
3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.
4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.
5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: noni
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 13:56
BaldFriede wrote:
chopper wrote:
I would say it depends on the music. If the members of, say, Yes got together and made a real out and out pop or jazz album, would we add them?I guess this is why we haven't added Phil Collins the solo artist yet (have we?) |
On the other hand we have Asia in the database.
Also my question was NOT about solo albums of members of prog bands.
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Asia have made a quite a few prog tracks.
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Posted By: noni
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 14:00
I wish you guys would google progressive music and look up under Wikipedia... Progressive music has various time signatures. Not just one like pop music. 
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 14:32
Tom Ozric wrote:
Face Value is stronger than Abacab (IMHO)...... |
totally  |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 14:41
Prog-related can mean what Friede means, and it can refer to music itself which has a prog relation. It can also refer specifically to a "sub-genre" at Prog Archives. Prog can be in the ear of the be-hearer and so can Prog Related in the musical sense.
When I say or think prog-related, I'm not generally referring to the Prog-Related category in PA which operates under its own set of guidelines. To me it is about the music (synonyms might be quasi-prog, prog umbrella music, proggy music, "possibly prog", "prog to some"....). For instance, I consider Ennio Morricone to be a prog-related artist for lots of his 60s and 70s music (prog for some of it). As a modern one, I consider Matt Berry to be a prog-related artist for his music (prog for some of it). The Wicker Man soundtrack is prog folk related to me, Mandingo is JRF related to me etc.
In the Prog Related category, I think that there is a fair amount of Prog-proper music. Even without the reviews, I wouldn't want to see those gone. I wish we had focused more on albums rather than artists (instead of thinking of an act as prog, think of the music or an album as Prog, prog related, or neither) -- I'm not keen on the whole discography policy and that has meant that so-called prog albums are not represented in the database because of concerns about other albums by the artists).
With the PR category, the more of the PR criteria that an act ticks -- http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38" rel="nofollow - according to the category page -- the stronger the argument for inclusion and the more worthy of placement, but my bias tends to give the qualities of the music itself primary importance while also considering the other factors (if not rock, is it progressive music, and how does it relate to specific categories in PA? Can knowing the music give listeners a wider picture of the prog umbrella?)
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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 14:48
Guldbamsen wrote:
A couple of things:
1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....
That's not the only criterium for prog-related though.
2) Prog related is not prog.
No-one doubts that.
3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.
You seem to confuse things a bit. I don't see how the iissue of "prog-related" has anything to do with the question "Is X really prog"?
4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.
Once again - being influential to the prog scene is not the only critderium for "prog-related".
5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.
I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:20
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I think it would depend on the music. I know prog related refers to the artists in a big way, but if the music does not have any prog tendencies, then I would doubt calling it prog related.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:37
BaldFriede wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
A couple of things:
1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....
That's not the only criterium for prog-related though.
2) Prog related is not prog.
No-one doubts that.
3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.
You seem to confuse things a bit. I don't see how the iissue of "prog-related" has anything to do with the question "Is X really prog"?
4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.
Once again - being influential to the prog scene is not the only critderium for "prog-related".
5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.
I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".
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I know the different criterias for prog related, I was after all on the admin team for a while. I am just stating how the sub works these days.
You have to prove a band/artist's importance to the prog scene by being hugely influential or indeed instrumental in its evolution.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:40
In the '70s almost every working musician was in some way connected to or related to prog.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:42
Guldbamsen wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
A couple of things:
1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....
That's not the only criterium for prog-related though.
2) Prog related is not prog.
No-one doubts that.
3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.
You seem to confuse things a bit. I don't see how the iissue of "prog-related" has anything to do with the question "Is X really prog"?
4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.
Once again - being influential to the prog scene is not the only critderium for "prog-related".
5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.
I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".
|
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I know the different criterias for prog related, I was after all on the admin team for a while. I am just stating how the sub works these days.
You have to prove a band/artist's importance to the prog scene by being hugely influential or indeed instrumental in its evolution. |
That seems to be near-sighted, almost a contradictio in adiecto. If there are several criteria why exclude all but one?
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:44
It's not prog or prog related or even good. Good night.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:57
BaldFriede wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
A couple of things:
1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....
That's not the only criterium for prog-related though.
2) Prog related is not prog.
No-one doubts that.
3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.
You seem to confuse things a bit. I don't see how the iissue of "prog-related" has anything to do with the question "Is X really prog"?
4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.
Once again - being influential to the prog scene is not the only critderium for "prog-related".
5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.
I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".
|
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I know the different criterias for prog related, I was after all on the admin team for a while. I am just stating how the sub works these days.
You have to prove a band/artist's importance to the prog scene by being hugely influential or indeed instrumental in its evolution. |
That seems to be near-sighted, almost a contradictio in adiecto. If there are several criteria why exclude all but one?
|
Because of the reasons stated above.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 16:01
Night, Steve..
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Posted By: Frankh
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 16:11
Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the thread title read "frog - related"
Never mind.
(If anyone is old enough to remember Gilda Radner's SNL character Emily Litella...)
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 05 2017 at 16:40
Sorry didn't mean to brush you off Friede but I was about to eat dessert:)
I think what this basically boils down to is, once again, the age old warhorse 'progressive musiv vs prog'. A few people on PA, like Moshkito fx, have always wanted the site to be about the former and I suspect you're in the same camp.
But taking that step would also mean including other forms of progressive music such hip hop, polka, classical, pop, techno and so forth. As much as I love progressive music in all of it's aspects (these days I probably listen to far more experimental music than actual prog rock that is listed on PA) it is still not quite what this site is about...and I very much doubt that most members would enjoy such an overhaul.
It could of course also just mean that your definition of prog vastly differs from PAs.
Prog related taken at face value is more to my liking - just like Greg actually (Logan). Music that isn't really prog rock but somehow sounds related to it. Again this description can be applied to twice the number of artists already found in the database, which effectively would change the site completely.
Byw Prog related also happens to hold many of my own faves, but I still don't see the need for it unless we could multitag albums and/or completely bypass the whole discography policy....but then again do you really think this site is going to undergo any such overhaul? We've been pleading for some sort of respons regarding the whole capcha debacle for over half a year and we're still none the wiser. Anyway we've been talking about new ideas and cool update stuff for years (as long as I can remember), so I guess it must be too much of a workload having to rearrange the thousands upon thousands of bands and albums.
By the looks of it it feels more like a sinking ship without it's captain.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: October 06 2017 at 04:33
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If the musicians are prog-related, the music may have nothing to do with prog. For example: I cannot imagine Demis Roussos included in PA under a band name moniker if he was backed up in his baklava bakery by Lucas Sideras and Vangelis.
Frankh wrote:
Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the thread title read "frog - related" |
I often read "Frog Inflated". This may have to do with my ageing eyes having increasing problems with reading small letters since 17 or 18 years.
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: October 07 2017 at 04:23
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I still don't understand why Vangelis is not in a full prog category
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 07 2017 at 07:17
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All i can say ---- if Phil Collins gets on this site then i'm quitting and writing a nasty review on Yelp!
Seriously, Friede has an excellent point. If the rules have changed regarding Prog Related then someone needs to re-write the criteria on the PR page and explain the differences between how the category was done in the past compared to what constitutes inclusion currently.
Also, has it been discussed that some of these bizarre artists be removed now that the site has more than enough bona fide prog artists to fill its vaults? I would not miss Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Triumph etc even though i like them as artists. I can totally understand why bands like Led Zeppelin, Queen, Metallica and Iron Maiden are here since they are non-prog bands that have prog tracks now and again.
I would simply recommend to update the homepage for Prog Related whoever handles these things these days ;)
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 12 2017 at 07:27
This is a topic that just keeps getting regurgitated on a regular basis. With regards the OP:
if a band has almost
the same line-up as a certain prog band but does not play prog is it
then prog-related? I think yes, but I would lkike (sic) to hear other opinions
There
are (7) criteria listed on the Prog Related definition page on PA but
they are not intended to be all inclusive or exhaustive. As far as
personnel is concerned, whether the music played can be deemed
influential upon or influenced by Prog would be an important factor for inclusion but other criteria would have to be taken into consideration e.g.
Greg Lake's solo output as evidenced by his studio albums is clearly
NOT Prog but every single tour he has done post ELP has included very
innovative interpretations of much of his back catalogue with both
Crimson and ELP. Check out Gary Moore playing Karn Evil 9 on guitar for
some truly jaw dropping innovation. For this reason I can see a tenuous
case for his inclusion. Similarly, you could maybe make a case for David
Gilmour of Floyd, but I don't know if he covers Progressive Rock, Floyd
material or otherwise in the live realm. Phil Collins, by way of
contrast, appears to have a strictly NOT Prog solo album career and does
not, AFAIK, include Progressive Rock material in his solo live shows.
That said, there are inclusions in Prog Related that were clearly click-bait to lure the plain vanilla Rawk fan
into PA at its inception and I cannot make any sort of cogent argument
for the following: (and I adore many of these artists)
Black
Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Blue Oyster Cult, John Cale, The
Church, Golden Earring, Yngwie Malsteem, Mercury Rev, Mike Rutherford,
Steeleye Span, Talking Heads, Triumph.
With regards your remark: I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".
You
are cordially invited to contact the site owner to determine what, if
any, future direction he envisions will be pursued for PA moving
forward. As things stand we have been at a crossroads for several years
i.e. there is a burgeoning clamor for inclusion of all progressive
developments in Rock music c/f the avowed aims of the site as
being an archive of Progressive Rock. The clue's in the name really (archive usually denotes a historical record of a phenomenon that occurred in the past)
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 12 2017 at 08:15
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^ Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Blue Oyster Cult, John Cale, The Church, Golden Earring, Yngwie Malsteem, Mercury Rev, Mike Rutherford, Steeleye Span, Talking Heads, Triumph.
i can understand why Sabbath, Maiden, Metallica and Malmsteem are here. They had some very good crossover prog material on their albums and did have their place in the fundamental building blocks of progressive metal however i agree with you on the rest. BOC? That one still remains a mystery. Likewise with Golden Earring. I would extend the list to include Japan, Journey, Klaatu, Rainbow, Wishbone Ash and i'm sure i could come up with more.
My understanding is that only the owner can delete any given artist once it's added to the site. Why is this the case? Why isn't it sufficient to allow the admins to have the power to delete artists no longer valid for inclusion? Has this ever been discussed? At the very least it seems the prog related category has been slowed down for all the extraneous artists. I know some question the presence of Buckethead here but if anyone has been reading my reviews, i'd actually place many of his albums in full-fledged prog but since many of them are not prog then prog seems like a good compromise. Interesting topic. I've had questions about this category as well. It seems many of these artists were at the whim of the creators in the beginning.
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: October 12 2017 at 10:38
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^I had been a lurker for many of the early years of these forums before I started posting in recent years, and the general consensus back in the day, was to be more inclusive. So, just an inkling of proggyness, or if somebody had a very good argument for inclusion seemed to be enough. Still, there were some heated arguments. The one I remember was for the Electric Light Orchestra. I agree though, some choices have me confused, too. It would seem that not everyone can agree what "proggy" is as opposed to what "prog" is. And that makes sense, at least to me. In some ways "prog related" reminds me of the Veterans Committee of the Baseball Hall of Fame; sort of a way of rounding up those artists that couldn't make into a proper subgenre because they were borderline. I think crossover took care of a lot of that since its introduction.
ExittheLemming wrote:
The clue's in the name really (archive usually denotes a historical record of a phenomenon that occurred in the past)
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I agree, it usually does. But there are actual physical archives that do collect recent primary source material, if only to preserve them with the intention that they might be historically important someday. This is especially true of archives that specialize in narrow topics.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 12 2017 at 14:12
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still).
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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
|
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 12 2017 at 15:04
To me the bands in crossover and prog related could be interchangeable at times...I have never really understood the categories very well....but then I don't really understand the need for Neo Prog either since most of it sounds like symphonic prog to me.
-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 01:23
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
-------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 04:29
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
|
I will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form....
You could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on both of those albums.
We've long had progressive, experimental, art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/ Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous.
Church of Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to me but I do see a Prog category relation.
As for Velvet Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on what I think "should" be included).
Our robot overlords do not approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh, this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a robot.
-------------
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 05:42
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
|
I will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form....
You could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on both of those albums.
We've long had progressive, experimental, art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/ Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous.
Church of Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to me but I do see a Prog category relation.
As for Velvet Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on what I think "should" be included).
Our robot overlords do not approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh, this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a robot. |
I read you as being an advocate of PA taking those final steps into becoming an all encompassing 'Progressive Music' site and consigning the previous focus on the continuing influence of 1st Gen Prog on current developments in Rock to the past (where many, with some justification would consider it belongs) Strangely enough I would say the same about the Residents who I love but don't consider remotely Prog (not even RIO/Avant, because for me they were, are and always will be a Psychedelic Rock/Pop band - not a million miles away in spirit albeit not sound from VU and the Doors) Similarly, I've never felt that the vast majority of Krautrock artists are even remotely Prog. Experimental, challenging and adventurous certainly but so are the legions of hugely influential Post Punk bands whose CDs fill my shelves at Lemming Towers. If we had a more visible owner, I'm guessing that what might be the site's watershed moment would have occurred long before now. This much has been predicted by the likes of Micky for what seems the longest time and intuited by the likes of Dean, Moshkito and Baldfriede on more than one occasion. Me? I think for the site to survive we need to park the Prog bandwagon and start to explore our own (open plan) surroundings. Take it to the MAX.
-------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 06:39
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
|
I will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form....
You could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on both of those albums.
We've long had progressive, experimental, art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/ Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous.
Church of Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to me but I do see a Prog category relation.
As for Velvet Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on what I think "should" be included).
Our robot overlords do not approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh, this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a robot. |
I read you as being an advocate of PA taking those final steps into becoming an all encompassing 'Progressive Music' site and consigning the previous focus on the continuing influence of 1st Gen Prog on current developments in Rock to the past (where many, with some justification would consider it belongs) Strangely enough I would say the same about the Residents who I love but don't consider remotely Prog (not even RIO/Avant, because for me they were, are and always will be a Psychedelic Rock/Pop band - not a million miles away in spirit albeit not sound from VU and the Doors) Similarly, I've never felt that the vast majority of Krautrock artists are even remotely Prog. Experimental, challenging and adventurous certainly but so are the legions of hugely influential Post Punk bands whose CDs fill my shelves at Lemming Towers. If we had a more visible owner, I'm guessing that what might be the site's watershed moment would have occurred long before now. This much has been predicted by the likes of Micky for what seems the longest time and intuited by the likes of Dean, Moshkito and Baldfriede on more than one occasion. Me? I think for the site to survive we need to park the Prog bandwagon and start to explore our own (open plan) surroundings. Take it to the MAX.
|
As you know, taking it to the MAX does tend to prove pretty futile here.
I certainly have been an advocate for such an approach since joining here. partially that's because I commonly find typical generic Prog dull, and stayed here for the progressive (red interesting to me) music. I've thought that progressive rock should be about breaking free from rock canon and genre (including Prog genre) expectations, and I have been happy to see music here that I would not classify as rock at all (I love the electronic category here for instance, which has some rock albums, but a lot that isn't). And in case anyone jumps in, I do understand the difference between progressive (adjective) and Prog (noun), so no need to delve too deeply on that distinction.
I think that expanding the parameters would help the site -- that can bring in more people. If this were my site it would operate very differently. It would transform into progressive/ experimental music archives with a focus on 1950s-up music and in fact I might even eventually expand it to progressive arts and thoughts archives with no temporal limits. There'd be a place for the likes of Stockhausen and Johnny Rotten, and possibly David Lynch and Lars von Trier as well as various progressive thinkers (Plato would find a place, for instance). An Arts, sciences, humanities one stop shop, but I'm getting too fanciful. Eventually the site would expand to take over the whole internet and be the archive of all that is good, but that's a pipe dream, of course. At least we can discuss anything in the fora, which is where my main interest in this site resides, but that can sure take some patience.
At this time though, I don't care so much about site direction, I'd just be happy to see the obvious obstacles gone such as how Captcha is working. I can't get anything through today without trying and trying and trying again.
-------------
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 08:29
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
|
I will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form....
You could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on both of those albums.
We've long had progressive, experimental, art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/ Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous.
Church of Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to me but I do see a Prog category relation.
As for Velvet Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on what I think "should" be included).
Our robot overlords do not approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh, this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a robot. |
I read you as being an advocate of PA taking those final steps into becoming an all encompassing 'Progressive Music' site and consigning the previous focus on the continuing influence of 1st Gen Prog on current developments in Rock to the past (where many, with some justification would consider it belongs) Strangely enough I would say the same about the Residents who I love but don't consider remotely Prog (not even RIO/Avant, because for me they were, are and always will be a Psychedelic Rock/Pop band - not a million miles away in spirit albeit not sound from VU and the Doors) Similarly, I've never felt that the vast majority of Krautrock artists are even remotely Prog. Experimental, challenging and adventurous certainly but so are the legions of hugely influential Post Punk bands whose CDs fill my shelves at Lemming Towers. If we had a more visible owner, I'm guessing that what might be the site's watershed moment would have occurred long before now. This much has been predicted by the likes of Micky for what seems the longest time and intuited by the likes of Dean, Moshkito and Baldfriede on more than one occasion. Me? I think for the site to survive we need to park the Prog bandwagon and start to explore our own (open plan) surroundings. Take it to the MAX.
|
As you know, taking it to the MAX does tend to prove pretty futile here.
I certainly have been an advocate for such an approach since joining here. partially that's because I commonly find typical generic Prog dull, and stayed here for the progressive (red interesting to me) music. I've thought that progressive rock should be about breaking free from rock canon and genre (including Prog genre) expectations, and I have been happy to see music here that I would not classify as rock at all (I love the electronic category here for instance, which has some rock albums, but a lot that isn't). And in case anyone jumps in, I do understand the difference between progressive (adjective) and Prog (noun), so no need to delve too deeply on that distinction.
I think that expanding the parameters would help the site -- that can bring in more people. If this were my site it would operate very differently. It would transform into progressive/ experimental music archives with a focus on 1950s-up music and in fact I might even eventually expand it to progressive arts and thoughts archives with no temporal limits. There'd be a place for the likes of Stockhausen and Johnny Rotten, and possibly David Lynch and Lars von Trier as well as various progressive thinkers (Plato would find a place, for instance). An Arts, sciences, humanities one stop shop, but I'm getting too fanciful. Eventually the site would expand to take over the whole internet and be the archive of all that is good, but that's a pipe dream, of course. At least we can discuss anything in the fora, which is where my main interest in this site resides, but that can sure take some patience.
At this time though, I don't care so much about site direction, I'd just be happy to see the obvious obstacles gone such as how Captcha is working. I can't get anything through today without trying and trying and trying again. |
So, if a current Admin thinks that music that would ordinarily not qualify as 'Rock' can be deserving of inclusion on a site currently dedicated to Progressive Rock, what action would you advocate to bring about such a change of policy for PA? (I'm not trying to be difficult here but both of us might agree that anyone's avowed aim of expansion/inclusion rests entirely upon the vested interests of the site owner)
-------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 10:36
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
|
I will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form....
You could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on both of those albums.
We've long had progressive, experimental, art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/ Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous.
Church of Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to me but I do see a Prog category relation.
As for Velvet Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on what I think "should" be included).
Our robot overlords do not approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh, this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a robot. |
I read you as being an advocate of PA taking those final steps into becoming an all encompassing 'Progressive Music' site and consigning the previous focus on the continuing influence of 1st Gen Prog on current developments in Rock to the past (where many, with some justification would consider it belongs) Strangely enough I would say the same about the Residents who I love but don't consider remotely Prog (not even RIO/Avant, because for me they were, are and always will be a Psychedelic Rock/Pop band - not a million miles away in spirit albeit not sound from VU and the Doors) Similarly, I've never felt that the vast majority of Krautrock artists are even remotely Prog. Experimental, challenging and adventurous certainly but so are the legions of hugely influential Post Punk bands whose CDs fill my shelves at Lemming Towers. If we had a more visible owner, I'm guessing that what might be the site's watershed moment would have occurred long before now. This much has been predicted by the likes of Micky for what seems the longest time and intuited by the likes of Dean, Moshkito and Baldfriede on more than one occasion. Me? I think for the site to survive we need to park the Prog bandwagon and start to explore our own (open plan) surroundings. Take it to the MAX.
|
As you know, taking it to the MAX does tend to prove pretty futile here.
I certainly have been an advocate for such an approach since joining here. partially that's because I commonly find typical generic Prog dull, and stayed here for the progressive (red interesting to me) music. I've thought that progressive rock should be about breaking free from rock canon and genre (including Prog genre) expectations, and I have been happy to see music here that I would not classify as rock at all (I love the electronic category here for instance, which has some rock albums, but a lot that isn't). And in case anyone jumps in, I do understand the difference between progressive (adjective) and Prog (noun), so no need to delve too deeply on that distinction.
I think that expanding the parameters would help the site -- that can bring in more people. If this were my site it would operate very differently. It would transform into progressive/ experimental music archives with a focus on 1950s-up music and in fact I might even eventually expand it to progressive arts and thoughts archives with no temporal limits. There'd be a place for the likes of Stockhausen and Johnny Rotten, and possibly David Lynch and Lars von Trier as well as various progressive thinkers (Plato would find a place, for instance). An Arts, sciences, humanities one stop shop, but I'm getting too fanciful. Eventually the site would expand to take over the whole internet and be the archive of all that is good, but that's a pipe dream, of course. At least we can discuss anything in the fora, which is where my main interest in this site resides, but that can sure take some patience.
At this time though, I don't care so much about site direction, I'd just be happy to see the obvious obstacles gone such as how Captcha is working. I can't get anything through today without trying and trying and trying again. |
So, if a current Admin thinks that music that would ordinarily not qualify as 'Rock' can be deserving of inclusion on a site currently dedicated to Progressive Rock, what action would you advocate to bring about such a change of policy for PA? (I'm not trying to be difficult here but both of us might agree that anyone's avowed aim of expansion/inclusion rests entirely upon the vested interests of the site owner)
|
Note to start off: Reading back on my post I notice that I did not quite convey in text what was in my head. I meant o say that I was an advocate for such change especially when joining here. A better still way to put it is that I've made many "suggestions" for changes over the years, including suggestions for ways to become more inclusive, some of which flew and most of which didn't. Since taking on the title of admin -- which I only did because a software upgrade lessened my abilities as a moderator which I have been for most of my time at this site -- I have not suggested nearly so much. I was more vocal before gaining this title, and more vocal still before the moderator title.
It's not my site, and I don't wish to advocate such things, although I still will speak of such as a member of this forum. I don't see it as a change of policy (and I know I've talked about these issues before so sorry if I sound like a broken record). We already had non-rock music at this site before I even joined (I guess it also depends upon how loosely one defines rock -- I'm fine with people putting, for instance, Progressive Electronic loosely under the rock moniker, but a lot of that many people would not call rock). In Avant prog, is Aranis rock music, or to what extent, in fact how rock is much Rock in Opposition? That subset probably best exemplifies what I think were Prog's possibilities, incidentally.
It's hard in such conversations, because one must not only define what one means by Prog but also what one means by rock.
Changes are up to the site owner, but I rarely talk to him and don't know very well what his vested interests are (lots of site traffic would be the main one I would assume and as an important corollary, ad revenue). I don't claim to know his mind or be more than mildly acquainted with him. I don't really even know what his grand vision is if he has one, but I do know that he's busy with lots of stuff (as are many of us), and that's fine, though I do wish something could be done about Captcha.
In my role as an Admin I work according to the guidelines that have been developed to a large extent by past admins who were also volunteers (of course you know about that). Some of this has been done by admin with active guidance from higher up, and some not (quite a lot not I think).
In terms of advocacy, I'm mostly a forum guy, and would like to advocate that people are civil, rational, compassionate, gracious, try to follow the site rules, and try to be open-minded (but no so-open that one's brains fall out). If I get the ear of the site owner, there are quite a few suggestions that I'd like to make. It would be up to him if he wants to adopt any of it.
This is a community, and I actually care more about the members here than I do the project, but I try to help out with some site business. If this were my site, surely things would be very different (I would hope to involve the community in the decision making process too), and while I have personal feeling about how I would like to see this site evolve, I don;t wish to pushy with that agenda. There is difference between what I would like for the site and what I think should be done to the site just as I alluded to before how I'm more inclusive in what I include under the Prog umbrella (according to how I use the term) but that is not to say that those "should" be included in Prog Archives. Prog Archives is not, of course, my archives. The archives in my mind palace (and music collection) are very different indeed, and I separate the two.
So, just to be absolutely clear, I'm not trying to advocate any changes here to current policy or even suggesting them (at least not formally). Down the road I might, but not today. I could go back over past posts to lists the proposals I've made over the years, but I don't want to take this topic more off-track. Okay, I still would like to advocate for a Various Artists page for artists who were not let in due to discography concerns despite having at least one Prog album, but I have raised that so many times over the years that it must be boring. And of course, like others, I pushed for album tagging. Years ago, I did suggest that Prog Related and Proto Prog be revamped and organised into sub categories (for instance, Avant Prog Related, Symphonic Prog Related, Prog Folk Related etc. but I think at this time that would be total pain and would make for too much demand on the categories. As I said in an earlier post, the musical qualities/ relation are to me personally (not so much in my role at this site) more important than the personnel. I, also, would be more enthusiastic about an artist getting into Prog Related that has progressive music qualities than one that is rock lacking progressive qualities, but that's partially because of where my musical interests lie.
On a related note: I would think that by having this site have a narrow focus it would get less page hits and less ad revenue than if it had a wider purview. Too big a net, though, could damage the site's credibility as a Prog Archive (which is what it ought to remain first and foremost in my opinion, but it's not up to me). Some say that the net is already far too big and some think there are too many holes in that net.
Such a long post, I'm sure there must be many mistakes and areas that would require further clarification. Sorry of not answering directly -- I'm not trying to obfuscate matters. And again, Captcha does not approve.
-------------
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
|
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 13:35
|
Mmm...why isn't there a site for "classic prog?" Probably because people would argue about what constitutes "classic prog." Would "Blue Jay Way" by the Beatles be included? Or "The End" by the Doors?
Long story short, a classic prog rock site would be my heaven, er, hell..oh, the hell with it.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 17:56
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
|
I will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form....
You could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on both of those albums.
We've long had progressive, experimental, art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/ Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous.
Church of Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to me but I do see a Prog category relation.
As for Velvet Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on what I think "should" be included).
Our robot overlords do not approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh, this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a robot. |
I read you as being an advocate of PA taking those final steps into becoming an all encompassing 'Progressive Music' site and consigning the previous focus on the continuing influence of 1st Gen Prog on current developments in Rock to the past (where many, with some justification would consider it belongs) Strangely enough I would say the same about the Residents who I love but don't consider remotely Prog (not even RIO/Avant, because for me they were, are and always will be a Psychedelic Rock/Pop band - not a million miles away in spirit albeit not sound from VU and the Doors) Similarly, I've never felt that the vast majority of Krautrock artists are even remotely Prog. Experimental, challenging and adventurous certainly but so are the legions of hugely influential Post Punk bands whose CDs fill my shelves at Lemming Towers. If we had a more visible owner, I'm guessing that what might be the site's watershed moment would have occurred long before now. This much has been predicted by the likes of Micky for what seems the longest time and intuited by the likes of Dean, Moshkito and Baldfriede on more than one occasion. Me? I think for the site to survive we need to park the Prog bandwagon and start to explore our own (open plan) surroundings. Take it to the MAX.
|
As you know, taking it to the MAX does tend to prove pretty futile here.
I certainly have been an advocate for such an approach since joining here. partially that's because I commonly find typical generic Prog dull, and stayed here for the progressive (red interesting to me) music. I've thought that progressive rock should be about breaking free from rock canon and genre (including Prog genre) expectations, and I have been happy to see music here that I would not classify as rock at all (I love the electronic category here for instance, which has some rock albums, but a lot that isn't). And in case anyone jumps in, I do understand the difference between progressive (adjective) and Prog (noun), so no need to delve too deeply on that distinction.
I think that expanding the parameters would help the site -- that can bring in more people. If this were my site it would operate very differently. It would transform into progressive/ experimental music archives with a focus on 1950s-up music and in fact I might even eventually expand it to progressive arts and thoughts archives with no temporal limits. There'd be a place for the likes of Stockhausen and Johnny Rotten, and possibly David Lynch and Lars von Trier as well as various progressive thinkers (Plato would find a place, for instance). An Arts, sciences, humanities one stop shop, but I'm getting too fanciful. Eventually the site would expand to take over the whole internet and be the archive of all that is good, but that's a pipe dream, of course. At least we can discuss anything in the fora, which is where my main interest in this site resides, but that can sure take some patience.
At this time though, I don't care so much about site direction, I'd just be happy to see the obvious obstacles gone such as how Captcha is working. I can't get anything through today without trying and trying and trying again. |
So, if a current Admin thinks that music that would ordinarily not qualify as 'Rock' can be deserving of inclusion on a site currently dedicated to Progressive Rock, what action would you advocate to bring about such a change of policy for PA? (I'm not trying to be difficult here but both of us might agree that anyone's avowed aim of expansion/inclusion rests entirely upon the vested interests of the site owner)
|
Note to start off: Reading back on my post I notice that I did not quite convey in text what was in my head. I meant o say that I was an advocate for such change especially when joining here. A better still way to put it is that I've made many "suggestions" for changes over the years, including suggestions for ways to become more inclusive, some of which flew and most of which didn't. Since taking on the title of admin -- which I only did because a software upgrade lessened my abilities as a moderator which I have been for most of my time at this site -- I have not suggested nearly so much. I was more vocal before gaining this title, and more vocal still before the moderator title.
It's not my site, and I don't wish to advocate such things, although I still will speak of such as a member of this forum. I don't see it as a change of policy (and I know I've talked about these issues before so sorry if I sound like a broken record). We already had non-rock music at this site before I even joined (I guess it also depends upon how loosely one defines rock -- I'm fine with people putting, for instance, Progressive Electronic loosely under the rock moniker, but a lot of that many people would not call rock). In Avant prog, is Aranis rock music, or to what extent, in fact how rock is much Rock in Opposition? That subset probably best exemplifies what I think were Prog's possibilities, incidentally.
It's hard in such conversations, because one must not only define what one means by Prog but also what one means by rock.
Changes are up to the site owner, but I rarely talk to him and don't know very well what his vested interests are (lots of site traffic would be the main one I would assume and as an important corollary, ad revenue). I don't claim to know his mind or be more than mildly acquainted with him. I don't really even know what his grand vision is if he has one, but I do know that he's busy with lots of stuff (as are many of us), and that's fine, though I do wish something could be done about Captcha.
In my role as an Admin I work according to the guidelines that have been developed to a large extent by past admins who were also volunteers (of course you know about that). Some of this has been done by admin with active guidance from higher up, and some not (quite a lot not I think).
In terms of advocacy, I'm mostly a forum guy, and would like to advocate that people are civil, rational, compassionate, gracious, try to follow the site rules, and try to be open-minded (but no so-open that one's brains fall out). If I get the ear of the site owner, there are quite a few suggestions that I'd like to make. It would be up to him if he wants to adopt any of it.
This is a community, and I actually care more about the members here than I do the project, but I try to help out with some site business. If this were my site, surely things would be very different (I would hope to involve the community in the decision making process too), and while I have personal feeling about how I would like to see this site evolve, I don;t wish to pushy with that agenda. There is difference between what I would like for the site and what I think should be done to the site just as I alluded to before how I'm more inclusive in what I include under the Prog umbrella (according to how I use the term) but that is not to say that those "should" be included in Prog Archives. Prog Archives is not, of course, my archives. The archives in my mind palace (and music collection) are very different indeed, and I separate the two.
So, just to be absolutely clear, I'm not trying to advocate any changes here to current policy or even suggesting them (at least not formally). Down the road I might, but not today. I could go back over past posts to lists the proposals I've made over the years, but I don't want to take this topic more off-track. Okay, I still would like to advocate for a Various Artists page for artists who were not let in due to discography concerns despite having at least one Prog album, but I have raised that so many times over the years that it must be boring. And of course, like others, I pushed for album tagging. Years ago, I did suggest that Prog Related and Proto Prog be revamped and organised into sub categories (for instance, Avant Prog Related, Symphonic Prog Related, Prog Folk Related etc. but I think at this time that would be total pain and would make for too much demand on the categories. As I said in an earlier post, the musical qualities/ relation are to me personally (not so much in my role at this site) more important than the personnel. I, also, would be more enthusiastic about an artist getting into Prog Related that has progressive music qualities than one that is rock lacking progressive qualities, but that's partially because of where my musical interests lie.
On a related note: I would think that by having this site have a narrow focus it would get less page hits and less ad revenue than if it had a wider purview. Too big a net, though, could damage the site's credibility as a Prog Archive (which is what it ought to remain first and foremost in my opinion, but it's not up to me). Some say that the net is already far too big and some think there are too many holes in that net.
Such a long post, I'm sure there must be many mistakes and areas that would require further clarification. Sorry of not answering directly -- I'm not trying to obfuscate matters. And again, Captcha does not approve. |
A lot to process there certainly but thanks for taking the trouble to set out your thoughts. You are clearly passionate about the music you like and the community aspects of PA. Just some thoughts of my own:
Album tagging - PA is the oldest of Max's three sites and AFAIK it's a database software limitation that prevents us from being able to tag albums (unlike Metal and Jazz archives)
You state there is already non Rock music on PA in the Progressive Electronic and RIO/Avant categories and welcome such additions: do you therefore believe that the existing evaluation process and genre definitions are consistent with such music? (we both might agree that developments in art make it the ultimate moving target so it stands to reason our evaluation criteria also have to change)
You state that you feel the main focus of the site should be to remain a Prog Archive but I cannot see how we can do this AND reflect the contemporary musical developments that might attract a wider progressive music demographic. (notwithstanding the Forum of course) I don't believe we can do justice to both without wholesale changes to what's on the PA menu. I do agree however that a site that casts its net too wide will usually end up failing.
Back on Topic - Prog Related should be locked to preserve the reviews but no new additions. it's become the faintly risible equivalent of the 'Reader's Wives' section in a porn mag. (not that I read such things of course)
Rest assured I'm treating everything you post as being your own opinion and not a reflection of the views or policies of PA, but nothing in your post makes me believe there is even the smallest appetite for change at the Admin level and that's a pity.
-------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 21:16
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
|
I will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form....
You could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on both of those albums.
We've long had progressive, experimental, art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/ Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous.
Church of Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to me but I do see a Prog category relation.
As for Velvet Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on what I think "should" be included).
Our robot overlords do not approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh, this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a robot. |
I read you as being an advocate of PA taking those final steps into becoming an all encompassing 'Progressive Music' site and consigning the previous focus on the continuing influence of 1st Gen Prog on current developments in Rock to the past (where many, with some justification would consider it belongs) Strangely enough I would say the same about the Residents who I love but don't consider remotely Prog (not even RIO/Avant, because for me they were, are and always will be a Psychedelic Rock/Pop band - not a million miles away in spirit albeit not sound from VU and the Doors) Similarly, I've never felt that the vast majority of Krautrock artists are even remotely Prog. Experimental, challenging and adventurous certainly but so are the legions of hugely influential Post Punk bands whose CDs fill my shelves at Lemming Towers. If we had a more visible owner, I'm guessing that what might be the site's watershed moment would have occurred long before now. This much has been predicted by the likes of Micky for what seems the longest time and intuited by the likes of Dean, Moshkito and Baldfriede on more than one occasion. Me? I think for the site to survive we need to park the Prog bandwagon and start to explore our own (open plan) surroundings. Take it to the MAX.
|
As you know, taking it to the MAX does tend to prove pretty futile here.
I certainly have been an advocate for such an approach since joining here. partially that's because I commonly find typical generic Prog dull, and stayed here for the progressive (red interesting to me) music. I've thought that progressive rock should be about breaking free from rock canon and genre (including Prog genre) expectations, and I have been happy to see music here that I would not classify as rock at all (I love the electronic category here for instance, which has some rock albums, but a lot that isn't). And in case anyone jumps in, I do understand the difference between progressive (adjective) and Prog (noun), so no need to delve too deeply on that distinction.
I think that expanding the parameters would help the site -- that can bring in more people. If this were my site it would operate very differently. It would transform into progressive/ experimental music archives with a focus on 1950s-up music and in fact I might even eventually expand it to progressive arts and thoughts archives with no temporal limits. There'd be a place for the likes of Stockhausen and Johnny Rotten, and possibly David Lynch and Lars von Trier as well as various progressive thinkers (Plato would find a place, for instance). An Arts, sciences, humanities one stop shop, but I'm getting too fanciful. Eventually the site would expand to take over the whole internet and be the archive of all that is good, but that's a pipe dream, of course. At least we can discuss anything in the fora, which is where my main interest in this site resides, but that can sure take some patience.
At this time though, I don't care so much about site direction, I'd just be happy to see the obvious obstacles gone such as how Captcha is working. I can't get anything through today without trying and trying and trying again. |
So, if a current Admin thinks that music that would ordinarily not qualify as 'Rock' can be deserving of inclusion on a site currently dedicated to Progressive Rock, what action would you advocate to bring about such a change of policy for PA? (I'm not trying to be difficult here but both of us might agree that anyone's avowed aim of expansion/inclusion rests entirely upon the vested interests of the site owner)
|
Note to start off: Reading back on my post I notice that I did not quite convey in text what was in my head. I meant o say that I was an advocate for such change especially when joining here. A better still way to put it is that I've made many "suggestions" for changes over the years, including suggestions for ways to become more inclusive, some of which flew and most of which didn't. Since taking on the title of admin -- which I only did because a software upgrade lessened my abilities as a moderator which I have been for most of my time at this site -- I have not suggested nearly so much. I was more vocal before gaining this title, and more vocal still before the moderator title.
It's not my site, and I don't wish to advocate such things, although I still will speak of such as a member of this forum. I don't see it as a change of policy (and I know I've talked about these issues before so sorry if I sound like a broken record). We already had non-rock music at this site before I even joined (I guess it also depends upon how loosely one defines rock -- I'm fine with people putting, for instance, Progressive Electronic loosely under the rock moniker, but a lot of that many people would not call rock). In Avant prog, is Aranis rock music, or to what extent, in fact how rock is much Rock in Opposition? That subset probably best exemplifies what I think were Prog's possibilities, incidentally.
It's hard in such conversations, because one must not only define what one means by Prog but also what one means by rock.
Changes are up to the site owner, but I rarely talk to him and don't know very well what his vested interests are (lots of site traffic would be the main one I would assume and as an important corollary, ad revenue). I don't claim to know his mind or be more than mildly acquainted with him. I don't really even know what his grand vision is if he has one, but I do know that he's busy with lots of stuff (as are many of us), and that's fine, though I do wish something could be done about Captcha.
In my role as an Admin I work according to the guidelines that have been developed to a large extent by past admins who were also volunteers (of course you know about that). Some of this has been done by admin with active guidance from higher up, and some not (quite a lot not I think).
In terms of advocacy, I'm mostly a forum guy, and would like to advocate that people are civil, rational, compassionate, gracious, try to follow the site rules, and try to be open-minded (but no so-open that one's brains fall out). If I get the ear of the site owner, there are quite a few suggestions that I'd like to make. It would be up to him if he wants to adopt any of it.
This is a community, and I actually care more about the members here than I do the project, but I try to help out with some site business. If this were my site, surely things would be very different (I would hope to involve the community in the decision making process too), and while I have personal feeling about how I would like to see this site evolve, I don;t wish to pushy with that agenda. There is difference between what I would like for the site and what I think should be done to the site just as I alluded to before how I'm more inclusive in what I include under the Prog umbrella (according to how I use the term) but that is not to say that those "should" be included in Prog Archives. Prog Archives is not, of course, my archives. The archives in my mind palace (and music collection) are very different indeed, and I separate the two.
So, just to be absolutely clear, I'm not trying to advocate any changes here to current policy or even suggesting them (at least not formally). Down the road I might, but not today. I could go back over past posts to lists the proposals I've made over the years, but I don't want to take this topic more off-track. Okay, I still would like to advocate for a Various Artists page for artists who were not let in due to discography concerns despite having at least one Prog album, but I have raised that so many times over the years that it must be boring. And of course, like others, I pushed for album tagging. Years ago, I did suggest that Prog Related and Proto Prog be revamped and organised into sub categories (for instance, Avant Prog Related, Symphonic Prog Related, Prog Folk Related etc. but I think at this time that would be total pain and would make for too much demand on the categories. As I said in an earlier post, the musical qualities/ relation are to me personally (not so much in my role at this site) more important than the personnel. I, also, would be more enthusiastic about an artist getting into Prog Related that has progressive music qualities than one that is rock lacking progressive qualities, but that's partially because of where my musical interests lie.
On a related note: I would think that by having this site have a narrow focus it would get less page hits and less ad revenue than if it had a wider purview. Too big a net, though, could damage the site's credibility as a Prog Archive (which is what it ought to remain first and foremost in my opinion, but it's not up to me). Some say that the net is already far too big and some think there are too many holes in that net.
Such a long post, I'm sure there must be many mistakes and areas that would require further clarification. Sorry of not answering directly -- I'm not trying to obfuscate matters. And again, Captcha does not approve. |
A lot to process there certainly but thanks for taking the trouble to set out your thoughts. You are clearly passionate about the music you like and the community aspects of PA. Just some thoughts of my own:
Album tagging - PA is the oldest of Max's three sites and AFAIK it's a database software limitation that prevents us from being able to tag albums (unlike Metal and Jazz archives)
You state there is already non Rock music on PA in the Progressive Electronic and RIO/Avant categories and welcome such additions: do you therefore believe that the existing evaluation process and genre definitions are consistent with such music? (we both might agree that developments in art make it the ultimate moving target so it stands to reason our evaluation criteria also have to change)
You state that you feel the main focus of the site should be to remain a Prog Archive but I cannot see how we can do this AND reflect the contemporary musical developments that might attract a wider progressive music demographic. (notwithstanding the Forum of course) I don't believe we can do justice to both without wholesale changes to what's on the PA menu. I do agree however that a site that casts its net too wide will usually end up failing.
Back on Topic - Prog Related should be locked to preserve the reviews but no new additions. it's become the faintly risible equivalent of the 'Reader's Wives' section in a porn mag. (not that I read such things of course)
Rest assured I'm treating everything you post as being your own opinion and not a reflection of the views or policies of PA, but nothing in your post makes me believe there is even the smallest appetite for change at the Admin level and that's a pity. |
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I feel the heat (and some sting) of your passion too. ;)
I state that there is music that I would not classify as rock in those categories. Aranis has done work in the rock universe, and I have argued before that even albums which might appear to be rock free have rock forms and similarities. That the band plays RIO (Rock in Opposition) festivals indicates some relation to rock. There are bands in various categories that I would not readily classify as rock, but I still put in that universe. Also, like I was saying, it rather depends upon how one defines rock. Some have stricter definitions and parameters than others. As for Progressive Electronic, while there is much music that I would not classify as rock, one could readily argue a rock relation. Many of those bands draw on rock and many have a relation to Krautrock and space rock generally. I happen to love Kosmische music, not that it matters.
I think that Philippe did a wonderful job with defining and giving a guide to PE. He was strict with what was included (a reason why say Vangelis and Jarre is not in there, but instead are in Prog Related although one might argue for Vangelis being a better fit in, say, Crossover). There is a new team and they have rather wider parameters, methinks. Personally, I liked the parameters of Philippe.
As for the RIO and Avant Prog definitions/guide, I see no problem with them. I think they did a good job and it describes those well.
Others better versed in rock might be better to speak of such things, but I got a feel for all of the categories by listening to much of the music (especially during my early years here as I don't listen to much new-to-me music anymore as I'm no as passionate about discovering music as I once was), and that gives me a feel for what I think fits where.
Prog Related additions are rare and should satisfy various criteria, but I personally don't wish to see a moratorium on them.
I'm rather surprised by your last paragraph. I'm not intending to touch on what the more venerable and much harder-working than I Admin think, and I see no need to draw such inference from my typically inane thoughts. There is change that we all would like to see (especially Captcha with me). As a community, I would hope that all would bring their perspectives to the table and work together to effect change (and work with the site owner to continuously improve this majestic venture).
Anyway, selfishly I've talked far too much and would be interested to hear more about the changes/ improvements that you would like to see and how you would like to implement them (perhaps M@x and the community will help make it a reality).
-------------
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 13 2017 at 23:19
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
^^^ Regarding John
Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The
Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives
(Terry Riley more so still). |
I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)
That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....
|
I
will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of
that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form....
You
could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the
Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike
Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent
arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on
both of those albums.
We've long had progressive, experimental,
art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster
for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories
such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/
Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than
Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous.
Church of
Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of
progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even
Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA
Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be
moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to
me but I do see a Prog category relation.
As for Velvet
Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having
it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and
experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet
Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long
thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend
to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog
Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on
what I think "should" be included).
Our robot overlords do not
approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh,
this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a
robot. |
I read you as being an advocate of PA taking those
final steps into becoming an all encompassing 'Progressive Music' site
and consigning the previous focus on the continuing influence of 1st
Gen Prog on current developments in Rock to the past (where many, with some justification would consider it belongs) Strangely enough I would say
the same about the Residents who I love but don't consider remotely
Prog (not even RIO/Avant, because for me they were, are and always will
be a Psychedelic Rock/Pop band - not a million miles away in spirit
albeit not sound from VU and the Doors) Similarly, I've never
felt that the vast majority of Krautrock artists are even remotely Prog.
Experimental, challenging and adventurous certainly but so are the
legions of hugely influential Post Punk bands whose CDs fill my shelves
at Lemming Towers. If we had a more visible owner, I'm guessing that
what might be the site's watershed moment would have occurred long
before now. This much has been predicted by the likes of Micky for what
seems the longest time and intuited by the likes of Dean, Moshkito and
Baldfriede on more than one occasion. Me? I think for the site to
survive we need to park the Prog bandwagon and start to explore our own
(open plan) surroundings. Take it to the MAX.
|
As you know, taking it to the MAX does tend to prove pretty futile here. 
I
certainly have been an advocate for such an approach since joining
here. partially that's because I commonly find typical generic Prog
dull, and stayed here for the progressive (red interesting to me) music.
I've thought that progressive rock should be about breaking free from
rock canon and genre (including Prog genre) expectations, and I have
been happy to see music here that I would not classify as rock at all (I
love the electronic category here for instance, which has some rock
albums, but a lot that isn't). And in case anyone jumps in, I do
understand the difference between progressive (adjective) and Prog
(noun), so no need to delve too deeply on that distinction.
I
think that expanding the parameters would help the site -- that can
bring in more people. If this were my site it would operate very
differently. It would transform into progressive/ experimental music
archives with a focus on 1950s-up music and in fact I might even
eventually expand it to progressive arts and thoughts archives with no
temporal limits. There'd be a place for the likes of Stockhausen and
Johnny Rotten, and possibly David Lynch and Lars von Trier as well as
various progressive thinkers (Plato would find a place, for instance).
An Arts, sciences, humanities one stop shop, but I'm getting too
fanciful. Eventually the site would expand to take over the whole
internet and be the archive of all that is good, but that's a pipe
dream, of course. At least we can discuss anything in the fora, which is
where my main interest in this site resides, but that can sure take
some patience.
At this time though, I don't care so much about
site direction, I'd just be happy to see the obvious obstacles gone such
as how Captcha is working. I can't get anything through today without
trying and trying and trying again. |
So, if a current
Admin thinks that music that would ordinarily not qualify as 'Rock' can
be deserving of inclusion on a site currently dedicated to Progressive
Rock, what action would you advocate to bring about such a change of
policy for PA? (I'm not trying to be difficult here but both of us might
agree that anyone's avowed aim of expansion/inclusion rests entirely
upon the vested interests of the site owner)
|
Note to
start off: Reading back on my post I notice that I did not quite convey
in text what was in my head. I meant o say that I was an advocate for
such change especially when joining here. A better still way to put it
is that I've made many "suggestions" for changes over the years,
including suggestions for ways to become more inclusive, some of which
flew and most of which didn't. Since taking on the title of admin --
which I only did because a software upgrade lessened my abilities as a
moderator which I have been for most of my time at this site -- I have
not suggested nearly so much. I was more vocal before gaining this
title, and more vocal still before the moderator title.
It's not
my site, and I don't wish to advocate such things, although I still will
speak of such as a member of this forum. I don't see it as a change of
policy (and I know I've talked about these issues before so sorry if I
sound like a broken record). We already had non-rock music at this site
before I even joined (I guess it also depends upon how loosely one
defines rock -- I'm fine with people putting, for instance, Progressive
Electronic loosely under the rock moniker, but a lot of that many people
would not call rock). In Avant prog, is Aranis rock music, or to what
extent, in fact how rock is much Rock in Opposition? That subset
probably best exemplifies what I think were Prog's possibilities,
incidentally.
It's hard in such conversations, because one must not only define what one means by Prog but also what one means by rock.
Changes
are up to the site owner, but I rarely talk to him and don't know very
well what his vested interests are (lots of site traffic would be the
main one I would assume and as an important corollary, ad revenue). I
don't claim to know his mind or be more than mildly acquainted with him.
I don't really even know what his grand vision is if he has one, but I
do know that he's busy with lots of stuff (as are many of us), and
that's fine, though I do wish something could be done about Captcha.
In
my role as an Admin I work according to the guidelines that have been
developed to a large extent by past admins who were also volunteers (of
course you know about that). Some of this has been done by admin with
active guidance from higher up, and some not (quite a lot not I think).
In
terms of advocacy, I'm mostly a forum guy, and would like to advocate
that people are civil, rational, compassionate, gracious, try to follow
the site rules, and try to be open-minded (but no so-open that one's
brains fall out). If I get the ear of the site owner, there are quite a
few suggestions that I'd like to make. It would be up to him if he wants
to adopt any of it.
This is a community, and I actually care
more about the members here than I do the project, but I try to help out
with some site business. If this were my site, surely things would be
very different (I would hope to involve the community in the decision
making process too), and while I have personal feeling about how I would
like to see this site evolve, I don;t wish to pushy with that agenda.
There is difference between what I would like for the site and what I
think should be done to the site just as I alluded to before how I'm
more inclusive in what I include under the Prog umbrella (according to
how I use the term) but that is not to say that those "should" be
included in Prog Archives. Prog Archives is not, of course, my archives.
The archives in my mind palace (and music collection) are very
different indeed, and I separate the two.
So, just to be
absolutely clear, I'm not trying to advocate any changes here to current
policy or even suggesting them (at least not formally). Down the road I
might, but not today. I could go back over past posts to lists the
proposals I've made over the years, but I don't want to take this topic
more off-track. Okay, I still would like to advocate for a Various
Artists page for artists who were not let in due to discography concerns
despite having at least one Prog album, but I have raised that so many
times over the years that it must be boring. And of course, like others,
I pushed for album tagging. Years ago, I did suggest that Prog Related
and Proto Prog be revamped and organised into sub categories (for
instance, Avant Prog Related, Symphonic Prog Related, Prog Folk Related
etc. but I think at this time that would be total pain and would make
for too much demand on the categories. As I said in an earlier post, the
musical qualities/ relation are to me personally (not so much in my
role at this site) more important than the personnel. I, also, would be
more enthusiastic about an artist getting into Prog Related that has
progressive music qualities than one that is rock lacking progressive
qualities, but that's partially because of where my musical interests
lie.
On a related note: I would think that by having this site
have a narrow focus it would get less page hits and less ad revenue than
if it had a wider purview. Too big a net, though, could damage the
site's credibility as a Prog Archive (which is what it ought to remain
first and foremost in my opinion, but it's not up to me). Some say that
the net is already far too big and some think there are too many holes
in that net.
Such a long post, I'm sure there must be many
mistakes and areas that would require further clarification. Sorry of
not answering directly -- I'm not trying to obfuscate matters. And
again, Captcha does not approve. |
A lot to process there
certainly but thanks for taking the trouble to set out your thoughts.
You are clearly passionate about the music you like and the community
aspects of PA. Just some thoughts of my own:
Album tagging - PA
is the oldest of Max's three sites and AFAIK it's a database software
limitation that prevents us from being able to tag albums (unlike Metal
and Jazz archives)
You state there is already non Rock music on
PA in the Progressive Electronic and RIO/Avant categories and welcome
such additions: do you therefore believe that the existing evaluation
process and genre definitions are consistent with such music? (we both
might agree that developments in art make it the ultimate moving target
so it stands to reason our evaluation criteria also have to change)
You state that you feel the main focus of the site should be to remain a Prog Archive but
I cannot see how we can do this AND reflect the contemporary musical
developments that might attract a wider progressive music demographic.
(notwithstanding the Forum of course) I don't believe we can do justice
to both without wholesale changes to what's on the PA menu. I do agree
however that a site that casts its net too wide will usually end up
failing.
Back on Topic - Prog Related should be locked to
preserve the reviews but no new additions. it's become the faintly
risible equivalent of the 'Reader's Wives' section in a porn mag. (not
that I read such things of course)
Rest assured I'm treating
everything you post as being your own opinion and not a reflection of
the views or policies of PA, but nothing in your post makes me believe
there is even the smallest appetite for change at the Admin level and
that's a pity. |
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I feel the heat (and some sting) of your passion too. ;)
I
state that there is music that I would not classify as rock in those
categories. Aranis has done work in the rock universe, and I have argued
before that even albums which might appear to be rock free have rock
forms and similarities. That the band plays RIO (Rock in Opposition)
festivals indicates some relation to rock. There are bands in various
categories that I would not readily classify as rock, but I still put in
that universe. Also, like I was saying, it rather depends upon how one
defines rock. Some have stricter definitions and parameters than others.
As for Progressive Electronic, while there is much music that I would
not classify as rock, one could readily argue a rock relation. Many of
those bands draw on rock and many have a relation to Krautrock and space
rock generally. I happen to love Kosmische music, not that it matters.
I
think that Philippe did a wonderful job with defining and giving a
guide to PE. He was strict with what was included (a reason why say
Vangelis and Jarre is not in there, but instead are in Prog Related
although one might argue for Vangelis being a better fit in, say,
Crossover). There is a new team and they have rather wider parameters,
methinks. Personally, I liked the parameters of Philippe.
As for
the RIO and Avant Prog definitions/guide, I see no problem with them. I
think they did a good job and it describes those well.
Others
better versed in rock might be better to speak of such things, but I got
a feel for all of the categories by listening to much of the music
(especially during my early years here as I don't listen to much
new-to-me music anymore as I'm no as passionate about discovering music
as I once was), and that gives me a feel for what I think fits where.
Prog Related additions are rare and should satisfy various criteria, but I personally don't wish to see a moratorium on them.
I'm
rather surprised by your last paragraph. I'm not intending to touch on
what the more venerable and much harder-working than I Admin think, and I
see no need to draw such inference from my typically inane thoughts.
There is change that we all would like to see (especially Captcha with
me). As a community, I would hope that all would bring their
perspectives to the table and work together to effect change (and work
with the site owner to continuously improve this majestic venture).
Anyway,
selfishly I've talked far too much and would be interested to hear more
about the changes/ improvements that you would like to see and how you
would like to implement them (perhaps M@x and the community will help make it a reality). |
I
deliberately took the trouble to clarify that I take your opinions as
being yours alone and as not being representative of the Admins but I
admit that on reflection: nothing in your post makes me believe there is even the smallest appetite for change at the Admin level and that's a pity rather
contradicts this so unreserved apologies from me for some muddled
thinking (but I do still hold to that opinion). Perhaps I'm completely
missing the point but I still get the impression you feel the existing
genre definitions are all we need to accommodate whatever future
developments Progressive Rock has in store and that there is no
contradiction in widening the net to include progressive music that
contains neither Prog or Rock. We're starting to sound like historians who are trying to read someone's palm.
As far as changes I'd like to see implemented:
I would lock Prog Related to keep the reviews but no more additions, the genre creates more problems than it solves
If
MAX believes that CAPTCHA makes the site less vulnerable to potentially
damaging external attacks, it's not going to disappear in a hurry. Yep, it's a pain in the derriere but then again, so is data loss.
I
would support your idea for another genre where admission is on an
album basis i.e. include someone's solitary fully fledged Prog album but
not the rest of their discography etc. Anecdotal evidence however, would indicate MAX remains strenuously opposed to this idea and the actual deleting of albums is AFAIK unprecedented on PA.
We should seek some sort of broad consensus among the membership to establish if PA should remain a Prog Rock Archive
(as you intend) or if it should be changed to be a much broader church
for all manner of progressive music hitherto denied admission as being
beyond the scope of the extant genre definitions.
This being a volunteer site, there is very little that can be done to ensure your hope
"that all would bring their perspectives to the table and work together to effect change" will ever amount to anything other than a platitude cribbed from a Management Training seminar.
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 14 2017 at 09:19
Or we take the approach as i have, to simply live with the imperfections on the site. I've still discovered truck loads of new music here despite Talking Heads being here and Phil Collins not. It will never please everyone no matter how hard we try. Instead of removing Prog Related i think the emphasis should be on updating the site but then again that's not something most of us can help with :)
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Posted By: Quinino
Date Posted: October 14 2017 at 09:38
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^ Hummm - that seems to me a sensible wise posture for the time being (not wanting to neglect the benefits of the deeper reflection our comrades have been producing, of course)
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: October 14 2017 at 10:35
^ i'm not saying this discussion isn't interesting because i've been wondering about this stuff myself for a while but i've pretty much given up on any higher aspirations of the site being perfect since the owner doesn't seem to want to get involved more. Certainly not meaning to crash the conversation just a reminder that it's still a great resource for the time being :)
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 14 2017 at 11:00
^ I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. Improving this site from a technical viewpoint is what I think is most needed, but yes, that's out of any of our control.
As for Lemming's points, and I won't quote anymore because that brings on the dreaded Captchas for me, during my tenure I want to point out that we have only added one act to Prog Related, which is Roger Glover (added in 2016), and it ticked the boxes really well. Haven't had any complaints. The complaints I hear about are old additions to Prog Related and many of those were added either by ProgLucky -- early site owner -- or when anyone could add anything and those were later moved to a Prog Related-created category. The owners decided to have a policy against deletion of artists once added as some reading this post might not know. Of course people complain about artists not added to Prog Related, so as silly puppy says, you can't please everyone. I try to be balanced. I'm glad that you appreciated the humour of my Management Training Seminar type phrase, I commonly do try to bring in some levity to my posts.
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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 14 2017 at 20:57
Logan wrote:
^ I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. Improving this site from a technical viewpoint is what I think is most needed, but yes, that's out of any of our control.
As for Lemming's points, and I won't quote anymore because that brings on the dreaded Captchas for me, during my tenure I want to point out that we have only added one act to Prog Related, which is Roger Glover (added in 2016), and it ticked the boxes really well. Haven't had any complaints. The complaints I hear about are old additions to Prog Related and many of those were added either by ProgLucky -- early site owner -- or when anyone could add anything and those were later moved to a Prog Related-created category. The owners decided to have a policy against deletion of artists once added as some reading this post might not know. Of course people complain about artists not added to Prog Related, so as silly puppy says, you can't please everyone. I try to be balanced. I'm glad that you appreciated the humour of my Management Training Seminar type phrase, I commonly do try to bring in some levity to my posts. |
Glover might actually make an excellent 'exhibit A' for the first degree silliness at play with regards the Prog Related category. (and I'm guessing the overwhelming acceptance of his inclusion is reflected in there being precisely zero written reviews of any of his solo albums to date: are we reading apathy as tacit approval? ) If neither of the two biggest bands Roger was in are included in a Prog category: Deep Purple (Proto Prog) and Rainbow (Prog Related) why is 'the artist known as Roger Glover' in Prog Related despite having released one fully fledged Symphonic Prog album in his own name? (Elements from 1978) - perhaps that classification is subjective but having reread his nomination thread, was the overwhelming consensus view held back in 2016 and the overriding reason for his inclusion. If we were to follow the artist submission guidelines, shouldn't Roger's entire discography be included? You can see how ridiculous this must look to a site visitor with even a passing knowledge of the lineage of Rock Music when reading the definitions and looking at the rosters. Reductio ad absurdum (I too have a sense of humour and being British, actually understand irony) - Roger Glover is related to Proto Prog/Prog Related (Related) loop to fade
I've certainly enjoyed these exchanges and hope they serve as food for thought in the wider PA community but all said, I just can't see how the site can arrest it's current decline and abandonment rate unless there is an appetite for significant structural change. CAPTCHA is really just a convenient scapegoat IMO
Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great (Machiavelli)
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: October 14 2017 at 23:30
I noticed that recently Bert Jansch has been demoted from Prog Folk to Prog-related, which is fine, as he was definitely not Prog and initially I was very grateful that he was voted onto PA but I think Prog Folk-related would actually tell the uniformed on the PA site what he actually played i.e. folk music with an edge. So I am all for this type of classification...then maybe the likes of John Renbourn, Richard Thompson, etc could be included.
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Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: October 15 2017 at 11:34
Taking a very practical approach to original question, in my opinion, I think it would be good to feature bands solely because of significant involvement of prog musicians (or former prog musicians). The reason is simple - if for example, Jon Anderson, Bill Bruford, Rick Wakeman and Steve Howe team up and create an album that isn't by Yes, I'm going to want to hear from other fans of Yes and prog rock whether or not it lives up to their expectations. It doesn't matter whether or not it's the greatest prog album ever, or if it's the greatest pop-country album ever - I, and I'm sure a lot of prog rock fans, are interested in knowing whether or not their work is worth our time and money. I don't want to have to go to CountryArchives and see that people who love pop-country gave it 5 stars; I want to know if it fits into my prog collection.
I know some people are hesitant about certain bands/artists getting onto ProgArchives as if it's going to taint the entire website. Personally, I think it's better to be more inclusive than not. Go ahead, put Phil Collins on here; if he gets a lot of 1 star ratings for not being prog, then this website will have served its purpose. In my opinion, it's the ratings that tell us if the music is prog and worth listening to, not whether or not the artist is here.
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https://borealkinship.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My prog band - Boreal Kinship
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 15 2017 at 13:02
Sorry for not responding to your post, ForestFriend, but regarding Lemming's last post, I wont parse it much since I don't wish to misrepresent the intentions and not be seen to be charitable, but regarding Glover, I apologise for misremembering the case (it might seem a poor excuse, but I do have neurological damage which has resulted in memory loss). I went back and read my comments on the case and I wasn't remembering the details. I also was concerned at the time that he was a related to prog Related artists and that he released an album that could be considered Prog. I won't go into details, but it was not a straightforward case. I actually thought him best for Crossover at the time, but felt that Elements deserved a place in PA even if not in the best fitting sub. Right or wrong, that's sort of been a philosophy of mine. I'm not into Rainbow or Deep Purple, by the way, and didn't even know who he was before looking into him back then. SO mea culpa. And by the way, being a Canadian, British, and Australian citizen, I like to think that I have a little of what I think are the good qualities of each. The British sense of self-deprecation, the Canadian propensity to apologise, and the Australian attitude of "she'll be right". A fair dinkum apology for an confusion due to my befuddled brain.
As for Captcha, I wouldn't think that it's being used as a convenient scapegoat, but what do I know? I think something like it is necessary, and perhaps there are no ways to modify it or other programs that would work sufficiently well with the software to make it easier for people to write reviews and post, but it is an issue that affects my and others enjoyment of this site, and has led to some valued members leaving the site. Hopefully with this post I will pass the Turing test. Bringing it up was a bit of a non sequitur by me, though, but I was frustrated since I was finding it so tough to get my posts through. Anyway, I will now bow out of this thread (rather regret posting in at all, to be honest).
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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
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Posted By: YESESIS
Date Posted: October 15 2017 at 14:49
Vompatti wrote:
From the official definition: "3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre."
So why isn't Phil Collins here exactly? |
YEAH! Wow, my man PC needs to be here! I'm... this is a problem
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: October 16 2017 at 07:05
ForestFriend wrote:
Taking a very practical approach to original question, in my opinion, I think it would be good to feature bands solely because of significant involvement of prog musicians (or former prog musicians). The reason is simple - if for example, Jon Anderson, Bill Bruford, Rick Wakeman and Steve Howe team up and create an album that isn't by Yes, I'm going to want to hear from other fans of Yes and prog rock whether or not it lives up to their expectations. It doesn't matter whether or not it's the greatest prog album ever, or if it's the greatest pop-country album ever - I, and I'm sure a lot of prog rock fans, are interested in knowing whether or not their work is worth our time and money. I don't want to have to go to CountryArchives and see that people who love pop-country gave it 5 stars; I want to know if it fits into my prog collection.
I know some people are hesitant about certain bands/artists getting onto ProgArchives as if it's going to taint the entire website. Personally, I think it's better to be more inclusive than not. Go ahead, put Phil Collins on here; if he gets a lot of 1 star ratings for not being prog, then this website will have served its purpose. In my opinion, it's the ratings that tell us if the music is prog and worth listening to, not whether or not the artist is here.
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Yep, that's a very good point. My experience is that most of the non-prog albums I've come across tend to rate below 2.50 (or so) once they've reached the threshold of enough people rating them. By no means should my opinion be considered exhaustive. I'm sure there are exceptions.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 16 2017 at 08:32
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I'm certainly no expert on prog related or crossover....even though I have read the explanations they still get muddled up imho ,but I think, (mentioned this before maybe a year ago...) that regular members who have posted for a while and been 'loyal' to the website should have input on voting for inclusion and or exclusion of bands. Maybe the combined pool of member votes, however it breaks down, could count as one vote when the mods vote for a band. IMHO having only a handful actually vote for the bands seems limited in many ways and not representative of feelings overall. Just a thought.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 16 2017 at 09:52
BarryGlibb wrote:
I noticed that recently Bert Jansch has been demoted from Prog Folk to Prog-related, which is fine, as he was definitely not Prog and initially I was very grateful that he was voted onto PA but I think Prog Folk-related would actually tell the uniformed on the PA site what he actually played i.e. folk music with an edge. So I am all for this type of classification...then maybe the likes of John Renbourn, Richard Thompson, etc could be included.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 16 2017 at 11:50
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Yes...it amazes me that Jansch is here and not Renbourn, Thompson, and even Nick Drake. Often no consistency to the inclusions within a category...imho.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Posted By: Quinino
Date Posted: October 16 2017 at 13:58
I questioned the team about Renbourn sometime ago - really don't know if he was rejected or simply lost from memory 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 16 2017 at 14:06
^Not forgotten, Renbourn is still being checked out for prog-related.
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Posted By: Quinino
Date Posted: October 16 2017 at 14:16
OK, glad our little village is (trying) taking care of its refugees 
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Posted By: axeman
Date Posted: October 31 2017 at 19:43
I think the rules of prog-related would be more straightforward if they added the bullet point "But not Phil Collins". "He is anathema," could follow but that would be PA's choice.
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-John
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 31 2017 at 20:23
There are clear deviations from the ProgRelated guidelines ~ that bands added must include musicians who were significant or connected to prog rock ~ Metallica and Iron Maiden to name two, who though pioneers in prog-metal had absolutely no direct personal connection to prog rock. Whereas before Bon Scott joined AC/DC, he fronted a very prog band called Fraternity. But if taken word-for-word, the PA policy dictates AC/DC should be in ProgRelated because their singer significantly contributed to the early Art/Prog scene. You see the inevitable problem, and it undoubtedly causes confusion.
There are also artists who may in hindsight deserve to be on PA, but don't have a clear place since it is not a general Rock or progressive music site: John Lennon and Brian Wilson are two who come to mind who would fall into the infamous "Related to Prog Related" column.
It may help to keep in mind the motivation for creating a ProgRelated category; PR is not a genre or style of music. It seeks to acknowledge the artists in rock history that contributed to and/or whose members were markedly influenced by the Art Rock/Prog Rock movement, a group of players who were finite and small in scope (if quite common during prog's peak years). It was not devised as place to deposit any artist that may be deemed near-progressive, para-progressive, or post-progressive. It is not an animate, evolving subgenre of music and should not be treated as such.
As for Phil Collins, I suspect it is as much a lack of political will as it is whether he is Prog Related according to PA guidelines-- He clearly is, after practically leading two of the most important rock bands of his time, and his solo albums are obviously admissible here as a Related artist. The rule demands it and I think someday he will probably be added, I just don't think anyone wants to review his records.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Posted By: peregrino
Date Posted: November 03 2017 at 17:48
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In my humble opinion, the prog related label is reserved to those musicians and bands who either had prog artists in their lineup, but don't necessarily play "prog", or bands who were among the "usual" rock bands initially but ended up influencing a lot of prog musicians. Kind of like proto prog, considering the latter one. As years go by, I'd wager we're going to see more new wave, indie rock and post rock bands added to the archives under that particular notion, even though post and math rock have their own category, which, btw, is not something I approve of (Discipline is not the same as Islands).
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