Yes vs Flash
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=110590
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 04:33
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Yes vs Flash
Posted By: cstack3
Subject: Yes vs Flash
Date Posted: March 23 2017 at 21:28
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New article I found, discussing the original critic views of Yes and Flash, shortly after Peter Banks & Tony Kaye left/were booted out of Yes: http://carwreckdebangs.wordpress.com/2017/03/22/when-critics-get-it-wrong-flash-will-get-huge-and-yes-wont-survive-a-blast-from-the-vaults-of-rock-obscurity/" rel="nofollow - https://carwreckdebangs.wordpress.com/2017/03/22/when-critics-get-it-wrong-flash-will-get-huge-and-yes-wont-survive-a-blast-from-the-vaults-of-rock-obscurity/ As fine of a band Flash was on their first two albums, I don't think their product rose to the compositional nor performance level of "the Yes Album" nor "Fragile." However, it is an interesting historical perspective! |
Replies:
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: March 23 2017 at 23:37
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nobody can tell for sure the future, and whos gonna be rememberd, and whos forgotten, but for sure, more people will remember Yes. But that aint saying Flash should be forgotten either. -------------  
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 24 2017 at 22:20
| Calling Fragile stale and mechanical... it's one of my favourite prog albums, with the most perfect line-up I can think of. |
Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: March 25 2017 at 11:13
| For a period of time (early 70s) Flash was my most seen opening act. I mean they opened for everybody. And with all of that I never could get into their music. IMO they were never in Yes' league. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 11:41
Thanks! I only saw them once, opening for Wishbone Ash on their "Wishbone Flash" tour (the bands shared a producer). And I agree, I don't think the band was in Yes' league, although if they had brought on a permanent keyboard player, they may have evolved in that direction. The band's chemistry was a mess, even though there was some amazing talent. Very little Flash video exists, this is about all I've ever found. |
dwill123 wrote:Posted By: DeadSouls
Date Posted: March 26 2017 at 11:54
| Batman |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: April 13 2017 at 15:24
| Love those first two Flash albums. Great stuff. Kaye should have stuck around... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 16 2017 at 07:41
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Hi, Interesting. I like the comment that "FRAGILE was not human" ... and in a sense that is so true as the whole album is so well defined and designed that it made it almost inhuman and too perfect an album for us all to ignore. As much as I like FLASH, and have always had those first two albums, I think that lyrically and compositionally, they needed to get past that "human" thing, not that they had to create an album that was "superhuman", which was never what they were about, but something that helped them transcent what they think they were that helped see them through a different sphere and set of fans. FRAGILE might not be human, but it got our attention ... the first two FLASH albums were nice but did not get our attention compared to the other monster. There is something to be said about that "human" thing, and it would come alive 20 years later with NIRVANA, for example, but in the end, it renders a band repetitive, and one can not find a reasonable understanding for the pieces of music, that are a bit more than just a 4 minute song ... the solos become meandering in the ears and eyes of the listener, and that is something that hurts the idealism around music, so much of which propels it! The same thing happened with IRON BUTTERFLY, who could never get past their first piece of music that sent them to the stratosphere, and mostly because it was not about the trip itself, but about the song and its this and that for the trip, and that did not last long enough for us to even listen to the 2nd album of theirs! The writing was on the wall, proverbially, for the music scene ... it was going to make you buy everything to confuse your understanding of things. All of a sudden, JEFFERSON AIRPLANE was not as intelligent a rock band as one song made it out to be, even though it had nice stuff, and one beautiful song, did not help IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY become any better and more appealing, in favor of louder, and less interesting music around the time. And then, something like LZ showed up. And "human" was taken to a personal level that most could not even relate to and could only fantasize about. That was "superhuman"? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 16 2017 at 08:50
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The lead singer always reminded me of Roger Daltry for some reason. Not his singing though. Yeah, that first Flash album is very good.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 16 2017 at 09:47
good god man.. that is more inspiring than a 6ft blond with big tits and f**k me eyes you are a treasure Pedro. the only poster here both smarter than me.. and able to make less sense with his posts   |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 16 2017 at 20:38
This last post just reminded me of Bilbo's last birthday speech before disappearing. Should the crowd feel flattered or offended by it? Should Pedro feel flattered or offended by your post? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 18 2017 at 07:26
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Hi, Neither Dellinger. I try to word my best in regards to these things, about how I feel, and how I have heard and understood some of this stuff for 40 some years. FLASH was not new to me yesterday, and I heard it almost at the same time as FRAGILE, if I am not confusing dates in my head. But looking at the whole thing from a different perspective, and a historical one, I would say that FLASH did not have the ability to "overcome themselves" and do better, like YES did, and Jon speaks about. I won't say "lazy", because some of us can meditate and some can not -- very simple -- but in the end, and the new material shows it ... there was something missing ... it was still very nice and enjoyable ... but something missing, that I can not put a finger on! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 18 2017 at 10:51
Nicely said! Flash were sort of "prog pop," and they sounded great on the AM radio. However, their composition really never rose to the level of Yes on the "Yes Album" and beyond, and "Fragile" was far more advanced than anything in Flash's catalog. I enjoy Flash and remain connected to the surviving members, who were excellent musicians in their own right. However, "Fragile" represented a quantum leap in popular music, and remains one of the best LPs in Yes' catalog to this day. The historical comparison is interesting, but only moderately so. We have another "Yes" controversy with two simultaneous Yes versions, i.e. Howe's formal "Yes" and "Yes featuring ARW". Another bifurcation in the Yes saga!
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 21 2017 at 12:55
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Hmmm...I 'll have to go and play my Flash vinyl....been a while. I honestly can't recall their songs well. But I did enjoy that video clip above...and that one rings a bell. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 21 2017 at 16:11
That is one god-awful video. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 16:26
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I've just read this thread to Ray Bennett (Flash bassist and songwriter). He had one comment: If you're going to compare Yes and Flash (a reminder—comparisons are always a dubious enterprise at best), it's wise to limit your comparison to the first two years of both bands. Flash broke up so early, they were just getting started and who knows what they would have sounded like on a fourth album, and with the time to work out all the initial problems and growing pains of a new band (like kicking out the source of most of their problems—Pete—just as producer Derek Lawrence suggested and Yes actually did.) ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 16:58
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You're so right, Dark Elf, that's a god-awful video. It was doctored from the original (overdubbed with an out-of-sync, badly recorded live concert track). The original version was already a very bad-quality grab, probably from a TV screen.. Here's the original... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 17:11
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Here are Ray and Colin Carter rehearsing the same tune during their 2010 reunion...did you all know about that, and the Flash 2013 release, "Flash Featuring Ray Bennett & Colin Carter"? ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 17:18
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The 2013 album... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsOwj68zSE0&list=PLrnz4OHBKJcQDejyDD778x3rCnsNiSmZK ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 19:15
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nice to see you around and kicking Sherry! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 19:35
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Thanks! Don't know why,, but I got a notification from progarchives in my email inbox from an old thread, then discovered this one. Looks like life goes on here as always... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 19:40
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yeah... the days of forum excitement are long gone ... same old same old around here. Good to see you around still flying the Flash flag... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 19:53
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I'll always be a fan, but Flash is no more. They were invited to play at Progtoberfest 2018 and Ray had to decline because Colin said he's no longer interested. Colin has just finished a solo album, his first, and Ray has one on the way, his second. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 22:35
| Never listened Flash, because I´ve read about that they never rised into level of Yes. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 01 2018 at 23:41
No, the songs were nowhere near as strong. The playing's ok but overall a footnote to Yes. Oddly a bit like the solo albums... Now I just have get over the idea of Heart Of The Sunrise being mechanical (Flash may be a footnote but the critics are the toilet paper] ....and onto those 6 ft blondes mentioned earlier... |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: March 02 2018 at 02:23
so because you just read that, you never tried listening to them. Are other people's opinion so important that you won't make your own, see things for yourself? I'm quite the opposite of that. I just have that curiosity to see things for myself. Even with low rated album, I'm thinking "how bad can it be?". Sometimes it is bad, but other times quite the opposite (LOL). I take every album for what it has to offer...
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 02 2018 at 12:11
| ^ Yeah, but when you are discovering music, you can't listen to everything that exists all at once, so you have to choose were to go next and what to dedicate your time, and money, into. So, if you read something is not good, and you believe it, well, why wast your time? Or at least you may leave it for later and go with something that seems more appealing at the moment. And yeah, it has even happened to me that I read negative reviews of something and I go like, well, it sounds like the things this guy dislikes of that album are just the ones I would like, and makes me want to check it out instead of discouraging me. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: March 02 2018 at 14:38
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Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: March 02 2018 at 18:21
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I prefer Daredevil Jokes aside, Flash is kind of "meh". I like Starcastle way more, so there's that. About Rolling Stone magazine (and Banks) calling Yes "show-offs that do things to impress people", well, that's much better than being lazy f*cks and playing half-assed music. Technique/skills and feels are not polar opposites, it's not one or the other. Yes displayed both, without a doubt. ------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 02 2018 at 21:22
For what it's worth, I found the first Flash album at least worth knowing. The two songs I liked better were "Small Beginnings", and then "Dreams of Heaven". You should at least give a good listen to the first one. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: March 02 2018 at 23:46
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 00:33
Here, give them a try! This is original bassist Ray Bennett on 6-string guitar, and original vocalist Colin Carter, with a really good group of musicians. Keep in mind, this was their first rehearsal together! I think this is a fine rendition of a spirited song. Tip o' the hat to Sherry Noland! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 01:22
| ^not sounding bad but...maybe in my 60th birthday anyway! Though always liked a lot Banks playing in Yes. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 02:54
They're OK, and I also feel that Kaye should've stuck around to make the later albums more interesting, but in some ways, I think he did good not to overstay his welcome in Flash... I'm currently in the process of reading Aymeric Leroy's book on Yes (in French), Banks seems/seemed to be a permanent grouch and a fairly disgruntled individual ... I can understand getting the boot from Yes can make you a sourpuss, but it wasn't only his guitar abilities that seemed to be a concern for Jon & Chris, but he was already misbehaving during the the T&aW sessions (he's rumoured to have stuck his guitar in the producer Coulton's face - a professional acquaintance of Jon) when the dude was trying to get something Jimmy-Page-esque out of Banks. Banks has had bad relations with Yes (mainly Squire) right from the start, whereas Kaye didn't, maybe one of the resons why he was invited back. Maybe if Kaye had stuck around in Flash, this might've developped in worse relations with Yes than he's had since. BTW: Banks apparently showed up with his guitar without being invited at the |
Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 05:15
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Need to check out Flash. A band who somehow passed me by, despite their connections. ------------- “Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.” |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 11:53
This is controversial, I know of one person who claims to have known Banks and Yes, and he says that it was Howe who pulled the plug on Banks appearing at a Los Angeles appearance. Peter had a sorry history, with many friends and bandmates turning on him. He died a lonely death in his London flat, leaving behind quite a bit of unreleased material. Flash was an early proponent of the "jam band" formula, pioneered by the Grateful Dead and later refined by bands such as Phish. This is one of my favorite songs by them, from their second LP, "Flash In The Can." Bassist Ray Bennett is excellent on Rickenbacker bass! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 13:20
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Only known live video of Flash performing at their first (and only) gig after the reunion—ProgDay 2010. Ray Bennett, lead guitar and vocals Colin Carter, vocals Rick Dougherty, keyboards Mark Pardy, drums Wayne Carver, bass ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 14:32
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Had no idea Flash ever existed, cstack3. Thanks for this bit o' history, and I'll be sure to look them up. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 15:28
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Straight from the horse's mouth—here's a very candid, informal conversation with Ray and Colin at the start of the reunion in 2010 in which they discuss a bit of their history with Pete and Mike, and how they approach music and feel about the label 'progrock'. Part 1: ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 15:30
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Part 2: ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 03 2018 at 23:17
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Thanks, Sherry! This is a look at Flash at their peak...sadly, there is little film/TV footage of the band available from what I've seen. They were on the US TV show "Midnight Special" once, but I don't know if anyone has ever found that footage yet. Enjoy, this gives you an idea of the talent this band had! Ray Bennett had a very powerful, driving bass, Mike Hough was a big-band drummer who knew how to swing, Peter was a prog veteran, and Colin had a very unique vocal style and great stage presence. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: March 04 2018 at 13:53
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This is one of my favorites... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 05 2018 at 22:13
Thanks, Sherry, mine as well!! When it comes down to picking "favorite Flash" songs, I tend to waffle a bit! Ginny and I were looking at houses near the Catalina Mountains in Arizona, so I did my best Colin Carter imitation (which isn't very good!) Ray's bass playing on this song is just nuts!! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 07 2018 at 12:47
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BTW, Peter Banks died on 7 March, 2013...five years ago today. I don't think his contributions to progressive music have ever been fully appreciated. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: 2008rulez
Date Posted: March 14 2018 at 23:35
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Yeah, Peter Banks really was part of the original Yes sound. Funny to me that despite how much better Howe was, he still on some level copied what Banks did..I swear I can hear that Pete beat howe to the punch with that Yes sound in some small way. To me the first two Yes albums (and BBC tapes with Banks) are far from most "first albums" so at least Pete was on good projects. To me, the first album has excellent playing and excellent fidelity. Very huge sound. What's sad is that Flash weren't as thematic. It has nothing to do with complexity....they simply could have created a weird mellotron part with a lot of ethereal plate echo and created a bizarre yes-like moment. It's more about mood and vibe than a thing of talent. That's why to me certain albums are on Yes-level, despite the technical abilities (ie Dark Side of the Moon, etc). Flash just didn't have any mood, never seemed to take a breather, and if you're going to rush through like that you better be good, ie Cherry Five good. Pete Banks had all the chance in the world just like I have, and it's up to us if we blow it or not.
------------- https://soundcloud.com/johns-music-2 |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: March 15 2018 at 00:07
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These are really great pieces from the Banks time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fM619cV_IU
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Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: April 12 2018 at 06:49
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Colin just released his first solo recording... https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/colincarter1" rel="nofollow - https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/colincarter1 ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 12 2018 at 23:54
Thanks, Sherry!! I just received my autographed copy, it is great! Does Ray have any upcoming solo releases on the horizon? ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: sherrynoland
Date Posted: April 13 2018 at 01:00
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Yes, he is. He says it's pretty far along. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/FlashFeaturingRayBennettColinCarter |