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Forum Description: List all your favourites here
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Topic: Most Overrated Prog Bands Of All Time PollPosted By: crispytreats
Subject: Most Overrated Prog Bands Of All Time Poll
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 01:02
Replies: Posted By: Chilltoss
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 01:10
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 01:59
Floyd
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 02:24
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Hmmm. Interesting definition of rubbish. You create something better and then we'll talk.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 03:30
I have never heard Egg! Oh well...
Nothing on that list is any more pretentious than any othjer prog, and I don't have a problem with pretentiousness in music. If every artist "kept it real" every band would be like the f***ing Housemartins....
Gentle Giant springs to mind, not as necessarily being pretentious but certainly quite contrived and annoying, at least for my ears. Like a mob of music professors making 'clever' music to prove they can. Very little entertainment value for me.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 04:16
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Harsh - you sound like a punk journalist from the late 70s
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 04:58
can't really disagree with those choices (maybe add TFK and SB), though Rush in #1 is definitely not my idea of over-rated
But I have a sense that the list maker meant ridiculous rather than over-rated
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 05:58
Sean Trane wrote:
can't really disagree with those choices (maybe add TFK and SB), though Rush in #1 is definitely not my idea of over-rated
But I have a sense that the list maker meant ridiculous rather than over-rated
Rush aren't number one. Dream Theater is. There is a picture of Rush but they don't appear to actually be on the list.
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 07:47
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Posted By: Modrigue
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 08:29
IMHO, Riverside is a lesser-known band, not in the same notoriety league as ELP, Marillion or Dream Theater.
Personally, from this list, I find Dream Theater very overrated since 2000, not as inspired and impacting as before.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqf2srRfppHAslEmHBn8QP6d_eoanh0eW" rel="nofollow - My compositions
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 08:40
Egg? No way, dude. Not a huge fan of the whole Canterbury scene but both 1971's The Polite Force and The Civil Surface from 1974 are brilliant.
ELP and Kansas? Stop the madness. They're both terrific.
IQ and Marillion? Neo-Prog is not my favorite sub genre either but they are the two best practitioners of it.
Riverside? Ridiculous.
Most overrated Prog band? Le Orme.
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 09:08
Blacksword wrote:
Gentle Giant springs to mind, not as necessarily being pretentious but certainly quite contrived and annoying, at least for my ears. Like a mob of music professors making 'clever' music to prove they can. Very little entertainment value for me.
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 09:27
Ok, maybe they are pretentious
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 10:42
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Thank you.
Every few months this thread comes along without searching for the numerous existing incidents of the same thing so a handful can sling about the p-word and feel they are somehow clever and original while ignoring that such behavior is the quintessence self-indulgence.
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 10:54
King Crimson or Van de Graaf Generator.
Pick either. I loathe them both.
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 11:17
Hercules wrote:
King Crimson or Van de Graaf Generator.
Pick either. I loathe them both.
I would say that those two are the most underrated Prog bands, at least underrated by you.
I know why you don't like Van der Graaf Generator, it's because of Hammill's vocals, but I don't recall why you loathe King Crimson so much.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 11:20
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
I can't possibly disagree more. "Karn Evil 9" is the reason ELP is one of my favorite bands. They were ahead of their time.
If you prefer more straightforward melodic fare, like the type Floyd was doing in the mid-70s, then I understand why you'd hate ELP.
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 11:59
Tapfret wrote:
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Thank you.
Every few months this thread comes along without searching for the numerous existing incidents of the same thing so a handful can sling about the p-word and feel they are somehow clever and original while ignoring that such behavior is the quintessence self-indulgence.
Both these posts go along with my thoughts as well. I didn't even look at the list because I really do not care. Pretentious is just a word used by people who do not like Prog. If they prefer punk or some kind of alt-pop, or whatever, that's fine, they can listen to what they want. They don't have to listen to Prog if they don't want. That's their prerogative. It is also mine to listen to what I like, and I listen to Prog. No, I don't like every artist listed here on the Archives and I listen to quite a bit that would never be on this site (at the moment is it Sunken Condos by Donald Fagen; a few minutes ago it was Dominant Curve by classical quartet Brooklyn Rider). My ears, my listening.
------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 13:00
Logan wrote:
Hercules wrote:
King Crimson or Van de Graaf Generator.
Pick either. I loathe them both.
I would say that those two are the most underrated Prog bands, at least underrated by you.
I know why you don't like Van der Graaf Generator, it's because of Hammill's vocals, but I don't recall why you loathe King Crimson so much.
1) I don't like Fripp's guitar style at all
2) Too self indulgent
3) Poor composition (with the honorable exception of Epitaph, ITCOTCK and The Night Watch)
4) Jamie Muir (on LTIA)
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 14:38
Yes imo, too many bad albums.
------------- A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!!
Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 16:06
Atavachron wrote:
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Hmmm. Interesting definition of rubbish. You create something better and then we'll talk.
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
I'm not trying to defend Chilltoss' dismissive attack on a talented prog band, but I do take exception to the argument that someone criticizing a work requires the critic being able to produce something better. For example, I can criticize an actor's performance while not possessing any acting ability because I can compare the actor's performance to that of other actors. See http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LetsSeeYOUDoBetter" rel="nofollow -
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 16:14
god I love these threads... perhaps the next one should have a definition of overrated.
not to pick on Hercules.. but the man does beg for it. Personally I think he loves the attention.. he is a neo fan you know.
I don't like Fripp's guitar style at all...
holy sh*t!!!!! There you go.. King Crimson thus is OVERRATED!! hah...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 16:18
Stop playing guys. Anybody (and by anybody I mean everybody) knows that Rush is the most over rated piece of dreck that the cat dragged in.
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 22:03
Hercules wrote:
Logan wrote:
Hercules wrote:
King Crimson or Van de Graaf Generator.
Pick either. I loathe them both.
I would say that those two are the most underrated Prog bands, at least underrated by you.
I know why you don't like Van der Graaf Generator, it's because of Hammill's vocals, but I don't recall why you loathe King Crimson so much.
1) I don't like Fripp's guitar style at all
2)Too self indulgent
3) Poor composition (with the honorable exception of Epitaph, ITCOTCK and The Night Watch)
4) Jamie Muir (on LTIA)
Micky already responded, but since you put the effort into replying, I feel I should do the same. Thanks for answering, by the way
1) I don't think Fripp employs just one style across his albums, and guitar is not omnipresesnt anyway.
One could not enjoy Fripp's guitar and still enjoy this, for instance ((I'm not saying one should enjoy it, I being less into rock generally than most here probably enjoy it more than most here):
2) Maybe sometimes -- I think that good artists commonly are self-indulgent -- they make music to please themselves rather than try to pander to an audience, which is more the music industry side of things. Experimentation and doing what you want to in the arts is not a bad thing generally-speaking, methinks, even if it does hurt some delicate ears. If the exercise is pleasurable to them and doesn't really hurt anyone else, more power to them, I say.
3) Can't see why you would limit not poor composition to just those tracks across its oeuvre, and it makes me wonder if you've really listened to all of its albums (or even just the ones up to 1974) attentively over recent years. Sure it's no Bach, but from a Prog perspective I cannot see how one could claim that KC is objectively poor at composition when compared to most other Prog acts. Be good to get some music conservatory trained people here to weigh in on this who have studied composition in real depth. I think that King Crimson is actually better than average in Prog circles when it comes to the ability to compose in different styles and in terms of harmony and in utilizing different techniques in varied compositions (more skilled than ye average Neo Prog band I would think both in musicianship and in composition). I'm not claiming that KC is academic music, but it's music that I think even most music academics could find some appreciation for if they were exposed to enough of it and compared it to other Prog bands such as Pendragon, IQ, and Marillion (I have no proof of this, and I may be wrong).
4) I happen to think that Jamie Muir is a talented percussionist, and that it shows on Larks' Tongues in Aspic, but I'm no drummer.
I know that to each his or her own tastes, but your repetitive and rather extreme disapproval for King Crimson (loathing is a very strong emotion) has rather baffled me since King Crimson is quite diverse in style and even in instrumental approach. I could imagine someone into Prog who likes Red who does not like Islands for instance, and I could imagine someone who likes Lizard not liking Discipline, and someone who enjoys In the Wake of Poseidon not really liking Larks' Tongues in Aspic, but I would think that most who appreciate Prog would at least respect the band for what they have accomplished, and that most Prog aficionados would find enough to like not to hate the band at the very least.
Like what one likes, but I think that one should be careful when one uses words such as poor, and in terms of this overall topic, when one claims that music is overrated. It's commonly intellectually lazy and often intellectually dishonest, not that I'm claiming to be any sort of intellectual. That would be blatantly dishonest of me.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 22:07
Hahaha this might just be the most spirited discussion I've seen on this site in months!
Can't have a discussion on overrating without throwing some good ol' J-Dull in the mix, though.
------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 22:18
Replayer wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Hmmm. Interesting definition of rubbish. You create something better and then we'll talk.
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
I'm not trying to defend Chilltoss' dismissive attack on a talented prog band, but I do take exception to the argument that someone criticizing a work requires the critic being able to produce something better. For example, I can criticize an actor's performance while not possessing any acting ability because I can compare the actor's performance to that of other actors. See http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LetsSeeYOUDoBetter" rel="nofollow - -- John F. Kennedy
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 08 2017 at 22:46
Atavachron wrote:
Replayer wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Hmmm. Interesting definition of rubbish. You create something better and then we'll talk.
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
I'm not trying to defend Chilltoss' dismissive attack on a talented prog band, but I do take exception to the argument that someone criticizing a work requires the critic being able to produce something better. For example, I can criticize an actor's performance while not possessing any acting ability because I can compare the actor's performance to that of other actors. See http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LetsSeeYOUDoBetter" rel="nofollow - https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 07:52
I think WithACloud is a tasteless dog turd, actually. IQ, Marillion and Riverside are amongst my favourite bands.
But he's entitled to his opinion.
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 08:04
micky wrote:
god I love these threads... perhaps the next one should have a definition of overrated.
not to pick on Hercules.. but the man does beg for it. Personally I think he loves the attention.. he is a neo fan you know.
I don't like Fripp's guitar style at all...
holy sh*t!!!!! There you go.. King Crimson thus is OVERRATED!! hah...
I really don't care two hoots if you or others don't agree with me. I long since stopped worrying about opinions because it's all just a matter of taste. When someone factually disagrees with one of my papers: that's what I worry about.
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
Posted By: PrognosticMind
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 08:19
Tapfret wrote:
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Thank you.
Every few months this thread comes along without searching for the numerous existing incidents of the same thing so a handful can sling about the p-word and feel they are somehow clever and original while ignoring that such behavior is the quintessence self-indulgence.
Exactly. Nothing's more pretentious than people acting as if their personal opinion/biases are objective fact.
------------- "A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?"
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 08:26
Hercules wrote:
micky wrote:
god I love these threads... perhaps the next one should have a definition of overrated.
not to pick on Hercules.. but the man does beg for it. Personally I think he loves the attention.. he is a neo fan you know.
I don't like Fripp's guitar style at all...
holy sh*t!!!!! There you go.. King Crimson thus is OVERRATED!! hah...
I really don't care two hoots if you or others don't agree with me. I long since stopped worrying about opinions because it's all just a matter of taste. When someone factually disagrees with one of my papers: that's what I worry about.
Hercules, I'm fine with your opinion and your indifference to others, but you can't really then go and call someone "a tasteless dog turd" when their tastes differ for yours, theirs are equally valid.
------------- Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 09:44
I do have one question about the format of the list. The thread topic mentions a poll, but I don't see any results on that list. Is this list just something the OP or someone else came up with?
Also, I found it hilariously misinformed that whoever wrote the blurb on each band is under the impression that the same person is responsible for both vocals and keyboards.
Since OP asked what we think, I'll go ahead and state my opinion: I think the OP is a troll attempting to stir the pot. The list is simply an enumeration of bands accompanied by a short description that attempts to be funny and offensive at the same time.
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 09:56
micky wrote:
god I love these threads... perhaps the next one should have a definition of overrated.
not to pick on Hercules.. but the man does beg for it. Personally I think he loves the attention.. he is a neo fan you know.
I don't like Fripp's guitar style at all...
holy sh*t!!!!! There you go.. King Crimson thus is OVERRATED!! hah...
This is my definition:
Overrated: Millions thinks that band is great for different reasons, but they are all wrong, because I say so.
Now. I don't like most KC and nothing from GG or VDGG, but this doesn't make them overrated, by the contrary, I believe they receive less credit than they deserve for doing what they love, despite the opinion of anybody.
-------------
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 10:12
[Has anybody checked his list of favourite bands and artists?
The "favourite artists" list clearly seems to be a joke. I have checked out his actual ratings, and his five star albums include Prog classics by King Crimson, Genesis, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd and Yes.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 12:14
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
micky wrote:
god I love these threads... perhaps the next one should have a definition of overrated.
not to pick on Hercules.. but the man does beg for it. Personally I think he loves the attention.. he is a neo fan you know.
I don't like Fripp's guitar style at all...
holy sh*t!!!!! There you go.. King Crimson thus is OVERRATED!! hah...
This is my definition: Overrated: Millions thinks that band is great for different reasons, but they are all wrong, because I say so.
Now. I don't like most KC and nothing from GG or VDGG, but this doesn't make them overrated, by the contrary, I believe they receive less credit than they deserve for doing what they love, despite the opinion of anybody.
That is how many use overrated. I'm not defining this for you, nor disagreeing with you, Ivan, as I know that you know what it means, and I agree with your attitude. Overrated means assessed or valued to highly by others (can refer to one person or many people). I think there's a place to use such a term in a rational and reasonably objective manner. For instance, someone claims that the Beatles was THE most important influence on developing raga due to him teaching Ravi Shankar how to really play the sitar. Of course that's factually inaccurate, but also I would say that that person has overrated the Beatles influence on the development of Raga. I have come across some similar very questionable claims on significance by individuals about many things that is borne by ignorance where I would counterclaim that they have overrated something based on their premises and conclusion which they present as objective reasoning and fact-based.
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
Hercules wrote:
micky wrote:
god I love these threads... perhaps the next one should have a definition of overrated.
not to pick on Hercules.. but the man does beg for it. Personally I think he loves the attention.. he is a neo fan you know.
I don't like Fripp's guitar style at all...
holy sh*t!!!!! There you go.. King Crimson thus is OVERRATED!! hah...
I really don't care two hoots if you or others don't agree with me. I long since stopped worrying about opinions because it's all just a matter of taste. When someone factually disagrees with one of my papers: that's what I worry about.
Hercules, I'm fine with your opinion and your indifference to others, but you can't really then go and call someone "a tasteless dog turd" when their tastes differ for yours, theirs are equally valid.
Some opinions have more worth and are more worthy of respect than others in my opinion. Everyone has opinions, but informed opinions are worth more than others. Tastes are equally valid, for instance some people eat dog turds, not kidding, whereas I would turn my nose up at that. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I do believe that opinions can transcend our biases and be rooted in the objective.
As for if someone disagrees with a paper, as long as one doesn't try to defend one's work out of egotism despite the evidence against it, that's great. I think that our opinions should always be open to change based on evidence.
If Hercules, as a mathematician, were to claim that Euler was a total idiot, a dog-turd could produce better equations, and is a highly overrated buffoon, well I'm sure that peers of his would object. It wouldn't be good enough just to say, well that's my opinion, you have to respect that.
I, like others, would prefer that one doesn't phrase subjective opinions which are merely based on personal taste as objectively true. If one is to claim that King Crimson is poor at composition, while extolling the virtues and genius of IQ (pun intended), then don't be surprised if someone calls your judgment into question. If one were in music class studying composition, then I expect that the teacher's would expect you to back up your claims, and not just say, well it's all about taste. No, one can discuss composition in a knowledgeable manner -- especially if one is well trained in it.
Furthermore, from personal perspective, if one doesn't care at all if others agree with you or want to actually discuss the merits of one's ideas, I'm not sure what the point is in posting. I think that all beliefs and opinions should be up for scrutiny, by others and by ourselves.
I like to extend this idea to more general notions of truth seeking and in examining our opinions and notions.
"In science it is no crime to be wrong, unless you are (inappropriately) laying claim to truth. What matters is that science as a whole is a self-correcting mechanism in which both new and old notions are constantly under scrutiny. In other words, the edifice of scientific knowledge consists simply of a body of observations and ideas that have (so far) proven resistant to attack, and that are thus accepted as working hypotheses about nature" (Ian Tattersall).
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 12:57
Starcastle.
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 13:07
Logan wrote:
That is how many use overrated. I'm not defining this for you, nor disagreeing with you, Ivan, as I know that you know what it means, and I agree with your attitude. Overrated means assessed or valued to highly by others (can refer to one person or many people). I think there's a place to use such a term in a rational and reasonably objective manner. For instance, someone claims that the Beatles was THE most important influence on developing raga due to him teaching Ravi Shankar how to really play the sitar. Of course that's factually inaccurate, but also I would say that that person has overrated the Beatles influence on the development of Raga. I have come across some similar very questionable claims on significance by individuals about many things that is borne by ignorance where I would counterclaim that they have overrated something based on their premises and conclusion which they present as objective reasoning and fact-based.
Of course there are valid uses of the word
In a Peruvian Forum there are a bunch of guys who say things like
Los Beatles son la mejor banda de la historia.
Nadie con dos dedos de frente lo pone en duda, y los que pretenden dudarlo tienen que ofrecer videos de bandas supuestamente mejores porque sus integrantes tocaban mejor sus instrumentos...y con eso demuestran tener NI PAJOLERA IDEA...
Translation: THE BEATLES ARE THE BEST BAND OF HISTORY
Nobody with brain will doubt it, and those who pretend to doubt it have to offer videos of supposedly better bands, because their musicians played their instruments better , and with this, they show they don't have a jerking idea
----------
This is overrating, whoever says A band is the best band of the universe because I say so and whoever says the contrary is an idiot, is overrating that band.
Genesis is the bast band FOR ME, but if somebody says I like King Crimson or Yes more, it's their taste and I have to respect it
-------------
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 13:12
Thanks for the Spanish lesson, Hank.
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 13:33
^ I don't get the Hank reference, is that a Hanks' Adventures in Spanish reference? Hank Hill? Or urban slang?
^^ Precisely, Ivan.
Being a bit egotistical bringing this up, but I did a topic provocatively entitled something like "Are the Beatles Overrated?" some years ago, which was intended to explore notions of overratedness, and to me to make a case for the word not being bad per se, but rather abused. I scoured the web for examples where people made truth claims about the Beatles which were either false or lacked validity and objectivity. It was a struggle to get my points and intentions across.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 13:36
That Hercules guy sounds more unhappy than ever.
-------------
Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 14:24
I'm sure he has his own https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules" rel="nofollow - labours to deal with...
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 14:42
3 pages of comments from this list...clearly WithACloud is holding the puppet strings here.
All hail WithACloud!!!
-------------
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 15:28
Blacksword wrote:
I have never heard Egg! Oh well...
Nothing on that list is any more pretentious than any othjer prog, and I don't have a problem with pretentiousness in music. If every artist "kept it real" every band would be like the f***ing Housemartins....
Gentle Giant springs to mind, not as necessarily being pretentious but certainly quite contrived and annoying, at least for my ears. Like a mob of music professors making 'clever' music to prove they can. Very little entertainment value for me.
Gentle Giant; very little entertainment value for me either.
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Posted By: crispytreats
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 19:05
I've got to second that myself. The artist's intent is only relevant if it adds (or subtracts) to the experience. The fun thing is, it happens to be more empathetic people who get affected by things like that. For instance, "Bike" by Floyd becomes immensely more enjoyable if you understand Syd's character, or who his girlfriend is.
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 03:59
Anyone who was a teenager in the late 70s will know how much prog was despised. I read somewhere how Anthony Phillips met a fan who had to pretend he didn't like 'Geese and the Ghost'. We gotta stick together! I personally can't stand Rush or Dream Theater but I 'get' why some people like them in the same way as Dolly Parton or Justin Bieber. Each to their own.
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 08:28
Gotta love the word overrated. Doesn't mean anything other than: I don't like the music most others do...they are wrong and I am of course right in my opinion.
Everything is rated as it is for better or for worse. I don't like Dream Theater, ELP or Renaissance but I would never think of them as overrated....poor fits much better
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: socrates17
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 08:33
De gustibus non est disputandum.
Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 10:52
O tempora o mores
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 11:03
Damnant quod non intellegunt (They condemn what they do not understand).
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 12:00
Hmmm...I'm not a fan of either Dream Theater or Riverside but I'm not sure they are overrated....that word is overused.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: March 10 2017 at 20:55
Pink Floyd and Porcupine Tree are extremely overrated, IMO.
ELP is the most underrated prog band ever. Hated even inside these circles for being ...well.... very, very prog. Dream Theater is underrated nowadays for whatever reason I fail to comprehend, since people hate DT for its fans, but I haven't seen a really annoying DT fan since 2006 or so.
------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Posted By: Chilltoss
Date Posted: March 11 2017 at 02:21
So I decided to give ONE of the bands on your list a chance crispytreats and went with IQ. Their newest album Road of bones may be the most boring experience I've ever had listening to music. New most overrated band for me, but were they even that highly rated to begin with? hmm maybe not overrated but just bad
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: March 11 2017 at 02:27
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
ELP is the most underrated prog band ever. Hated even inside these circles for being ...well.... very, very prog.
A point well made! The hate got to Keith in the end....
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 11 2017 at 08:53
Blacksword wrote:
.....
Gentle Giant springs to mind, not as necessarily being pretentious but certainly quite contrived and annoying, at least for my ears. Like a mob of music professors making 'clever' music to prove they can. Very little entertainment value for me.
I have to agree with you.....I have always thought the same thing about GG.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 11 2017 at 09:47
dr wu23 wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
.....
Gentle Giant springs to mind, not as necessarily being pretentious but certainly quite contrived and annoying, at least for my ears. Like a mob of music professors making 'clever' music to prove they can. Very little entertainment value for me.
I have to agree with you.....I have always thought the same thing about GG.
pretty much sums up my opinion too
Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: March 12 2017 at 23:17
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Based on personal taste you have every right to criticise an album if you don't like it. What you don't have any right to do, particularly if you don't play a musical instrument, is to criticise the artist's playing of their instrument. Based on the list I don't happen to like Egg or Riverside, based on my own personal taste, but I'm open minded enough to listen to their next albums and change my mind if the music suddenly appeals to me.
Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 02:09
iluvmarillion wrote:
What you don't have any right to do, particularly if you don't play a musical instrument, is to criticise the artist's playing of their instrument.
I've mentioned this in an earlier post in this thread, but I disagree with this position.
Just to be clear, I am not claiming that everyone is an expert at reviewing musicians' skills or that a musician will not be able to provide more insightful reviews, but simply that even non-musicians can use their previous exposure to music in order to compare a musician' performance to that of others or even other performances by the same musician.
I'm going to try to prove my point using a video of a Marillion concert, where all the music has been overdubbed with deliberately bad playing (there's an entire category of "Guitarist X Shreds" videos available on YouTube).
I don't have to be a guitarist (which I am not) to find humor in the noodling.
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Sinfonia" rel="nofollow - Portsmouth Sinfonia is another example of poorly played instruments. It was an orchestra where all the players did not know how to play their own instruments.
You may dismiss these examples as trivial, but you made a very broad statement and I wanted to demonstrate that even someone with no musical training can recognize the musicians' performances as being substandard.
Prog is a genre that places emphasis on instrumental virtuosity and
band can record multiple takes in the studio, so any professional
recording will at least sound competent. However, even professional musicians can have an off night or there may be cases where line-up changes affect a band's sound, positively or negatively.
To offer a concrete example, I've read multiple reviews that preferred Glenn Cornick or John Glasscock's bass playing in Jethro Tull to Jeffrey Hammond's and that Anderson had to teach Hammond the basslines.
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 04:21
Fluctuat nec mergitur (The duck floats,but does not sink)
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 08:04
iluvmarillion wrote:
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Based on personal taste you have every right to criticise an album if you don't like it. What you don't have any right to do, particularly if you don't play a musical instrument, is to criticise the artist's playing of their instrument. Based on the list I don't happen to like Egg or Riverside, based on my own personal taste, but I'm open minded enough to listen to their next albums and change my mind if the music suddenly appeals to me.
Yes, if you like or don't like something, you can express it in every way you want, that is a given, but to go to the extreme and give the "overrated" title just because you don't like it, that is a little too far, at least on my book. It's line if you don't like an album, but if you don't know how to write music or even play an instrument, it's like judging a piece or architecture, or literature, or even a painting, without knowing what it takes to create it.That applies to every aspect of life, and unfortunately, it happens more often than not.
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 09:07
Manuel wrote:
iluvmarillion wrote:
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Based on personal taste you have every right to criticise an album if you don't like it. What you don't have any right to do, particularly if you don't play a musical instrument, is to criticise the artist's playing of their instrument. Based on the list I don't happen to like Egg or Riverside, based on my own personal taste, but I'm open minded enough to listen to their next albums and change my mind if the music suddenly appeals to me.
Yes, if you like or don't like something, you can express it in every way you want, that is a given, but to go to the extreme and give the "overrated" title just because you don't like it, that is a little too far, at least on my book. It's line if you don't like an album, but if you don't know how to write music or even play an instrument, it's like judging a piece or architecture, or literature, or even a painting, without knowing what it takes to create it.That applies to every aspect of life, and unfortunately, it happens more often than not.
I don't agree. I dislike REM. Extremely dislike their music. To me, they are the epitome of overrated.
There is plenty of art that I think is overrated and I would still think it's overrated even if I knew what went into making it.
Let's say I hated Fripp's guitar playing, I don't but let's just say that I did. I don't play but if I learned how and then studied his work, I might still come to the same opinion. If something is aesthetically unpleasing to me, simply knowing the work that went into it isn't suddenly going to make me like it. I may very well come away respecting the artist more but liking it? I don't think so. It's still overrated to me. I can respect the artist while not respecting the art.
You go down a dangerous road by basically saying to people, "You can't criticize if you aren't an artist." I've heard the same thing from sports figures who say to the effect, if you've never played, you can't know what it's like to (insert sports activity here). Most of us will never know how hard it can be to play professional sports. I guess we can fire all the beat reporters and the sports columnists. Where does it end? Can we not criticize politicians if we aren't a politician ourselves?
I might even like the art but still find it overrated. There are plenty of musicians that I can say I like but I still find them overrated. Aerosmith is one.
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 09:14
Jeffro wrote:
Manuel wrote:
iluvmarillion wrote:
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Based on personal taste you have every right to criticise an album if you don't like it. What you don't have any right to do, particularly if you don't play a musical instrument, is to criticise the artist's playing of their instrument. Based on the list I don't happen to like Egg or Riverside, based on my own personal taste, but I'm open minded enough to listen to their next albums and change my mind if the music suddenly appeals to me.
Yes, if you like or don't like something, you can express it in every way you want, that is a given, but to go to the extreme and give the "overrated" title just because you don't like it, that is a little too far, at least on my book. It's line if you don't like an album, but if you don't know how to write music or even play an instrument, it's like judging a piece or architecture, or literature, or even a painting, without knowing what it takes to create it.That applies to every aspect of life, and unfortunately, it happens more often than not.
I don't agree. I dislike REM. Extremely dislike their music. To me, they are the epitome of overrated.
There is plenty of art that I think is overrated and I would still think it's overrated even if I knew what went into making it.
Let's say I hated Fripp's guitar playing, I don't but let's just say that I did. I don't play but if I learned how and then studied his work, I might still come to the same opinion. If something is aesthetically unpleasing to me, simply knowing the work that went into it isn't suddenly going to make me like it. I may very well come away respecting the artist more but liking it? I don't think so. It's still overrated to me. I can respect the artist while not respecting the art.
You go down a dangerous road by basically saying to people, "You can't criticize if you aren't an artist." I've heard the same thing from sports figures who say to the effect, if you've never played, you can't know what it's like to (insert sports activity here). Most of us will never know how hard it can be to play professional sports. I guess we can fire all the beat reporters and the sports columnists. Where does it end? Can we not criticize politicians if we aren't a politician ourselves?
I might even like the art but still find it overrated. There are plenty of musicians that I can say I like but I still find them overrated. Aerosmith is one.
OK. I guess we have some very different views, and I respect the way you think and feel about it. I never meant to say that you should like something just because of the amount of work that went into creating it. If you don't like it, well, you don't, and that's perfectly fine. I just think that saying is overrated based on your taste is a little bit harsh, considering that many other have rated it very highly, but without the diversity of opinions, the world would not be what it is.
Again, I mean no disrespect to you, or your opinions.
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 09:48
Manuel wrote:
Jeffro wrote:
Manuel wrote:
iluvmarillion wrote:
Manuel wrote:
The "Overrated" title seems a bit radical to me, since most people don't even have a clue on how to play an instrument, what to speak of writing a song, and yet, decide that somebody's music is good or bad, pretentious or overrated etc, based on our personal taste and opinions, which are as faulty, if not more, than the people who wrote the music we criticize.
Based on personal taste you have every right to criticise an album if you don't like it. What you don't have any right to do, particularly if you don't play a musical instrument, is to criticise the artist's playing of their instrument. Based on the list I don't happen to like Egg or Riverside, based on my own personal taste, but I'm open minded enough to listen to their next albums and change my mind if the music suddenly appeals to me.
Yes, if you like or don't like something, you can express it in every way you want, that is a given, but to go to the extreme and give the "overrated" title just because you don't like it, that is a little too far, at least on my book. It's line if you don't like an album, but if you don't know how to write music or even play an instrument, it's like judging a piece or architecture, or literature, or even a painting, without knowing what it takes to create it.That applies to every aspect of life, and unfortunately, it happens more often than not.
I don't agree. I dislike REM. Extremely dislike their music. To me, they are the epitome of overrated.
There is plenty of art that I think is overrated and I would still think it's overrated even if I knew what went into making it.
Let's say I hated Fripp's guitar playing, I don't but let's just say that I did. I don't play but if I learned how and then studied his work, I might still come to the same opinion. If something is aesthetically unpleasing to me, simply knowing the work that went into it isn't suddenly going to make me like it. I may very well come away respecting the artist more but liking it? I don't think so. It's still overrated to me. I can respect the artist while not respecting the art.
You go down a dangerous road by basically saying to people, "You can't criticize if you aren't an artist." I've heard the same thing from sports figures who say to the effect, if you've never played, you can't know what it's like to (insert sports activity here). Most of us will never know how hard it can be to play professional sports. I guess we can fire all the beat reporters and the sports columnists. Where does it end? Can we not criticize politicians if we aren't a politician ourselves?
I might even like the art but still find it overrated. There are plenty of musicians that I can say I like but I still find them overrated. Aerosmith is one.
OK. I guess we have some very different views, and I respect the way you think and feel about it. I never meant to say that you should like something just because of the amount of work that went into creating it. If you don't like it, well, you don't, and that's perfectly fine. I just think that saying is overrated based on your taste is a little bit harsh, considering that many other have rated it very highly, but without the diversity of opinions, the world would not be what it is.
Again, I mean no disrespect to you, or your opinions.
And certainly no disrespect to you or your opinions. I tend to get a little fired up at times and that comes across in my posting.
For me, "overrated" is just an opinion. There's nothing inherently wrong with saying it as it's really not different than any other opinionated statement.
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 12:16
Replayer wrote:
...
...
Dismissing this may be dismissing the greatest thing ever. I will go on record as a staunch believer that everybody should be required to hear this at least once in their lives.
Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: March 13 2017 at 21:53
Tapfret wrote:
Dismissing this may be dismissing the greatest thing ever. I will go on record as a staunch believer that everybody should be required to hear this at least once in their lives.
I didn't mean to imply Portsmouth Sinfonia's recordings had no artistic merit; sorry if it came across that way. It was interesting that the musicians were still able to perform the music as recognizable classical compositions. I just wanted to make the point that a non-musician can use his existing knowledge of classical music and harmony to make an objective assessment that the orchestra is playing off key.
From the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Sinfonia" rel="nofollow - Wikipedia page : "Bryars was interested more in experimenting with the nature of music than forming a traditional orchestra. Instead of picking the most competent musicians he could find, he encouraged anyone to join, regardless of talent, ability and experience. The only rules were that everyone had to come for rehearsals and that people should try their best to get it right and not intentionally try to play badly."
Here's another piece you may enjoy. It gives me the impression that the orchestra is playing drunk.
Here is the Sinfonia's "Classical Muddly", containing famous snippets set to a poorly synchronized disco beat.
Finally, here is the The Sinfonia's own interpretation of The Shadows' Apache. I love how the conductor is standing behind the band. Enjoy
The musicians were actually improving their playing, which is probably one of the reasons why the Sinfonia disbanded.
Tommy Seebach's version is probably worse
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 14 2017 at 11:17
Tapfret wrote:
Replayer wrote:
...
...
Dismissing this may be dismissing the greatest thing ever. I will go on record as a staunch believer that everybody should be required to hear this at least once in their lives.
I heard it.
Still have a headache.
This one is accurate
Later that year, a scheduled concert for the inmates of Wandsworth Prison faced opposition from the Howard League for Penal Reform on the grounds that it constituted a form of ‘cruel and unusual punishment’.
I believe it's a crime to play that bad and dare to record it.
-------------
Posted By: Mesman
Date Posted: March 19 2017 at 06:20
Lol, you basically named the two only overrated elp songs as their only decent songs.
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 19 2017 at 07:32
hmmmm... ahhhhh
Overrated
o·ver·rate
ˌōvərˈrāt/< ="" height="14" width="14">
noun
past tense: overrated; past participle: overrated
letting your homoerotic fanboyism take hold of your brain and your ears
"dismissing the work as pompous and overrated"
synonyms:
https://www.google.com/search?q=define+overestimate&forcedict=overestimate&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic6aSb1uLSAhWrzIMKHXeAAA0Q_SoIIjAA" rel="nofollow - overestimate , https://www.google.com/search?q=define+overvalue&forcedict=overvalue&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic6aSb1uLSAhWrzIMKHXeAAA0Q_SoIIzAA" rel="nofollow - overvalue , think too much of, attach too much importance to, praise too highly
"I think Neal Peart is a GOD"
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 19 2017 at 12:17
Don't really relate to the term "overrated". There are well liked prog bands that don't float my boat, like Can, Neu!, or Trace, but that's just my perspective; others may find them to be excellent. To each his own, and one person's food is another person's poison. If everybody felt the same way about things, it would be a pretty boring world.
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 19 2017 at 14:32
Replayer wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
Dismissing this may be dismissing the greatest thing ever. I will go on record as a staunch believer that everybody should be required to hear this at least once in their lives.
I didn't mean to imply Portsmouth Sinfonia's recordings had no artistic merit; sorry if it came across that way...
The musicians were actually improving their playing, which is probably one of the reasons why the Sinfonia disbanded.
Tommy Seebach's version is probably worse
Oh no no...I was not implying any implication on your part. Merely expressing my own amusement.
And the Apache video...omg, if there are 2 things I have ever wanted in life its a harp made out of a scantily clad woman and to hide a lit bundle of carrots in a 3 ring binder.
Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: June 27 2017 at 14:51
I keep seeing the whole "pretentious" thing coming up over and over again. This always kind of bugged when I would see critics writing about prog bands and I'm kind of surprised to see it here. A hand full of people learned to play their instruments at an extremely high level (Wakeman, Emerson , Squire, Fripp, Howe, Peart, Collins, Portnoy to name a few) and when they actually utilize those skills on an album they get criticized for it. It's almost like saying it's OK for you to be able to play great as long as you never actually do it. Never made sense to me. Now I get that some stuff can be a little over the top sometimes and drag out for too long but at least give people credit for trying to push the envelope.
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 27 2017 at 22:12
For me the most over rated prog band is probably Starcastle. I think they are second rate Yes clones at best. Still, I don't hate them but compared to Yes they are rather boring.
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: June 27 2017 at 22:22
Spinal Tap is absolutely overrated, have you heard their album "Shark Sandwich", lol it's more like **** Sandwich
------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.
https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325
Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: June 27 2017 at 22:28
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
For me the most over rated prog band is probably Starcastle. I think they are second rate Yes clones at best. Still, I don't hate them but compared to Yes they are rather boring.
I think it's funny that every time I heard Starcastle's name mentioned (I'm not familiar with their music yet), it was in the same sentence as "Yes clone", "Yes lite" or "Yes copyists". Thus, from my perspective, their music is universally labeled as derivative.
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: June 28 2017 at 05:01
I am with a few on this thread - who realise that Gentle Giant, VDGG and King Crimson are truly extremely important bands in the prog pantheon, but I don't particularly rave over any of their output, but I still can't say that any are 'Overrated'.
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 28 2017 at 05:28
Argo2112 wrote:
I keep seeing the whole "pretentious" thing coming up over and over again. This always kind of bugged when I would see critics writing about prog bands and I'm kind of surprised to see it here. A hand full of people learned to play their instruments at an extremely high level (Wakeman, Emerson , Squire, Fripp, Howe, Peart, Collins, Portnoy to name a few) and when they actually utilize those skills on an album they get criticized for it. It's almost like saying it's OK for you to be able to play great as long as you never actually do it. Never made sense to me. Now I get that some stuff can be a little over the top sometimes and drag out for too long but at least give people credit for trying to push the envelope.
I don't think the 'pretentious' tag is applied to prog musicians by non prog commentators, because of their musical ability, it's more because of the subject matter of the songs, and the structure of the music.
People who 'don't get' prog, fail to understand why a rock musician would want to try and break rock conventions and rules, by using odd time signatures and unusual song structures. That's what they see as pretentious; IE, the musicians are 'pretending' to be something above and beyond 'rock' musicians.
As I've said before though, rock music without some pretentiousness is pretty boring, and plenty of non prog acts, past and present, who are deemed cool and showered with endless adoration and respect by the mainstream, are utterly pretentious anyway. The likes of U2 springs to mind.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 28 2017 at 07:05
^ have to agree with most of that and it's interesting that no-one really gave Kyle Smith any credit for making exactly the same valid point in his (otherwise wretched) article:
Without a little pretension it's unlikely we would have ever gotten past Merseybeat
Any popular music artist (which includes EVERYONE listed on this site) who believes they are substantially more than 'entertainers' bankrolled by their fans, is probably deserving of the odd 'pretentious' barb now and again.
-------------
Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: June 28 2017 at 13:15
Blacksword wrote:
Argo2112 wrote:
I keep seeing the whole "pretentious" thing coming up over and over again. This always kind of bugged when I would see critics writing about prog bands and I'm kind of surprised to see it here. A hand full of people learned to play their instruments at an extremely high level (Wakeman, Emerson , Squire, Fripp, Howe, Peart, Collins, Portnoy to name a few) and when they actually utilize those skills on an album they get criticized for it. It's almost like saying it's OK for you to be able to play great as long as you never actually do it. Never made sense to me. Now I get that some stuff can be a little over the top sometimes and drag out for too long but at least give people credit for trying to push the envelope.
I don't think the 'pretentious' tag is applied to prog musicians by non prog commentators, because of their musical ability, it's more because of the subject matter of the songs, and the structure of the music.
People who 'don't get' prog, fail to understand why a rock musician would want to try and break rock conventions and rules, by using odd time signatures and unusual song structures. That's what they see as pretentious; IE, the musicians are 'pretending' to be something above and beyond 'rock' musicians.
As I've said before though, rock music without some pretentiousness is pretty boring, and plenty of non prog acts, past and present, who are deemed cool and showered with endless adoration and respect by the mainstream, are utterly pretentious anyway. The likes of U2 springs to mind.
You're probably right about that. It just seems like some people/ critics get annoyed when someone dares to play more the three chords or writes something in a time signature other that 4/4.
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: June 30 2017 at 15:06
Flight123 wrote:
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Harsh - you sound like a punk journalist from the late 70s
Yes, it's puzzling (in'nent it?).
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 05 2017 at 05:15
Rednight wrote:
Flight123 wrote:
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Harsh - you sound like a punk journalist from the late 70s
Yes, it's puzzling (in'nent it?).
KE9 (1st Impression) = BEST THING THAT ELP ever did!!! (by a long way as well!)
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: July 05 2017 at 05:38
No band or artist is over rated. Usually quite the reverse.
The over or under rating (where is the balance? (Rhe.) is done by the audience and is actually criticizing - the audience. The audience are the subject and anyone, the object may or may not be overrated. The only objective constant is you, the listener, critic, fan, consumer, concert attendee. The object is the ball in play, the game is rating, and if you have an opinion that someone disagrees with then you are wrong. Thus some one is overrated despite not actually being involved in the process except to be kicked, passed and other wise knocked into touch.
Or, to be blunt ,if someone says someone is over rated they are talking about you. They may say they talk about Band X (...) or whoever but that all changes all the time. Only the over rating is perpetual.
Posted By: Luqueasaur
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 16:04
Steven
Goddamn
Wilson
Aside from the trippy psychedelic PT era, he has done nothing really worth so much praise. Sure, he might've made songs that appealed to many people, but he's not a genius like people so frequently claim.
I also am not a big fan of ELP, but then again, all I did was listen to Tarkus (LOVED it) and BSS (meh).
Also, Opeth. Their tech death metal is really awesome, but they're MUCH, MUCH FAR from the amazing deity status people put them.
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 16:14
Rush, of course.
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 27 2018 at 02:26
ELP is the first band I think of if I ever wanted to turn someone off to progressive rock immediately.
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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: February 27 2018 at 02:37
Probably ELP, because GG wasn´t as respected in the seventies as many others.
Posted By: Jzrk
Date Posted: February 27 2018 at 17:39
seems like this thread has turned into an ELP bashing. I find it astonishing on a prog fan website.ELP was always one of my favorite prog bands.Overrated,hardly I still find their music more enjoyable than most other prog of any era.But to each his or her own. There’s a lot of music here I try to give a fair shake to but get bored of shortly Never get bored with Brain Salad Surgery or their early albums. I’m not the worlds biggest prog head and by no means a prog elisitst but really ELP overrated!! ??
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 27 2018 at 18:19
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
there is in my opinion no such thing as "noodling". it is just a derogatory term used by people who can't appreciate certain musical passages
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 27 2018 at 19:36
love these threads... proof again that ELP is the most underrated prog band. Who cares if you don't like them.
they.. along with Yes.. were the face of prog and still are today like it or not...and did as much.. or more than anyone to create it, influence it, and popularize it. And pound for pound were probably its more talented group.
Like greatest rock keyboardist ever.. and not even close.
One of the greatest of all rock drummers and by pure talent.. might have been the best.
Then there is Greg Lake.. horriblely underrated as a musician. I do recall Fripp saying Lake was more talented that he was.. and Squire saw Lake as an equal on the bass. Then there is his voice.. not just prog's single greatest vocalist.. but right with Justin Heyword in the minds of many of being considered ROCK's greatest vocalist. There is a reason Lake got pussy every where he went.. it sure as hell wasn't for his looks hahah
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 27 2018 at 21:34
I certainly don't think ELP is 'underrated'...their first 4 albums are all rated over 4 stars........
as far as overrated prog bands....I don't feel any of them truly classify as overrated since a wide variety of people( at least here) have voted , though I do think some individual albums by some of the well known prog bands are overrated.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 27 2018 at 22:42
that list is BS, and this time BS is not short for Black Sabbath. :)
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: February 27 2018 at 22:49
No, ELP really haven´t been underrated at all. Of course they got lot of mocks after the middle seventies, but so did all the progbands, even Pink Floyd. And when these days here seem to be many who liked ELP, it´s one proof it has never been underrated. There are many really much greater progbands from the seventies really few still respect. I think the main problem to me in ELP is Emerson. He has always been the one, who wanted to show every album how skillfull he is. Also, he had a really bad taste of synth sounds, if he had just stayed in the organ and piano, ELP albums would have been much more better. Greg Lake is the main reason why I listen ELP albums. His voice is absolutely great, also love his playing, also he was the one who kept on doing shorter, melodic pieces in ELP albums.
Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 01:27
Evryone deserves the attention it gets.
There was a period I really loathed Radiohead, Tool, Muse etc.
But that's because I was in a bad place and struggling with my inner demons.
I must say that bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica are musically speaking not my cup of tea, and I can't understand that people think they are great musicians, but I understand the appeal. And on the other hands, big labels backing them up, with lots of merchandise.
I think that's the same with progrock. The bands with the big labels backing them up (Pink Floyd, Marillion, ELP, etc.) will always get more attention. But hey, it's the day and age of the internet. So anyone can listen to anything they like anytime of the day. I haven't heard a musical note I didn't choose myself for more than 2 decades.
Anything I listen to (even if it's drab) is of my own chosing.
That being said. I sometimes feel that Steven Wilson is a bit idolized too much. I find nothing special about him, although I like Porcupine Tree and his remixes are kind of good. It's just another human being, and not the first one remixing albums.
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 01:53
micky wrote:
they.. along with Yes.. were the face of prog and still are today like it or not...and did as much.. or more than anyone to create it, influence it, and popularize it. And pound for pound were probably its more talented group.
...ELP the face of prog AND its most talented group? Now I've heard everything
I certainly wouldn't say ELP are underrated at all.
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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 02:14
I'd say ELP are one of those bands that enjoy about the correct amount of public esteem. Loved by some for their virtuosity, innovation, exuberance, showmanship and vast influence on subsequent prog. Despised by others for their lack of taste, shameless bombast, inclusion of horribly embarassing songs like Benny the Bouncer on almost every album, and tendency to put out overblown hogwash like Works Vol. 1.
And the thing is, both those groups are right
------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 03:27
ELP transcended the genre - they brought jazz into prog and probably were the most successful band to do so. They were actually exciting!! The ELP bashing reminds me of the time in the late 70s when us ELP fans had to put up with the high priests of punk telling us that they were crap. Yet, for example, 'Welcome Back My Friends' went to 4 on Billboard and 'Tarkus' was a number 1 UK album - not many prog bands can make similar claims...
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 05:50
I seem to be in a minority who considers overrated a useful term. Related to music I usually use it to describe two very different kinds of albums or bands:
1. The most easily accessible and easy to locate (or shoved down out throats) that according to me are overrated as "best ever" or "genius" because millions of listeners simply doesn't know about all the much better alternatives. Such as:
Dark Side of the Moon (although I kind of like most of it)
Kind of Blue (see above)
Dream Theater
Mahavishnu Orchestra (kind of like them a little as well)
2. Obscure cult albums or collectors items that (once again according to me) has built a reputation as an overlooked gem/the holy grail based on obscurity and inaccessibility alone.
And I consider all the bands in WITHACLOUD's list except Egg to be overrated (see first example why and in what way).
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 11:22
Chilltoss wrote:
Perhaps ELP. They do have their moments with songs like "Lucky Man" or "The Sheriff", however the rest of their work is filled with pretentious, self-indulgent, and bombastic noodling(half the bands on your list are probably similar in this regard, but I've yet to listen to them and don't plan to). Look no further than Karn Evil 9. ab-so-lute rub-bish
Congrats! Your comments just mirrored the mainstream press for most of their work (how ordinary). As for Lucky Man and The Sheriff being "moments," correct! They were moments of filler while the grander stuff came elsewhere on their respective albums.
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 11:56
^Sometimes the mainstream press accidentally gets it right I guess - but then again ELP is loathed by so many that it can be questioned if they are infact all that overrated.
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 13:09
ELP are not under or overrated imho....and considering how talented all 3 members were...I was always a bit disappointed that they didn't write even better material and wrote some awful junk .
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: February 28 2018 at 13:20
King Crimson of course
------------- “War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
?
Chilltoss wrote:
), though Rush in #1 is definitely not my idea of over-rated 
