Who was the first prog band to have metal elements
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Topic: Who was the first prog band to have metal elements
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Subject: Who was the first prog band to have metal elements
Date Posted: December 12 2016 at 22:20
I'm actually not referring to the old bands from the seventies because that would be too easy. I'm referring to non prog metal bands from the post seventies era. Most of the 80's neo bands didn't really have metal elements so it was later than that. Again, I'm not talking about pure prog metal here. Just curious. I have a few in mind but want to hear other responses first. 
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Replies:
Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: December 12 2016 at 22:44
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Well in the 80's Pallas did have heavy rock/metal elements to their sound, albeit not as pronounced as on The Dreams of Men or XXV: |
Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: December 12 2016 at 22:46
But wouldn't any band after that initial classic period simply not be the first?
This is a little ambiguous... Are you asking for bands that aren't prog metal, or metal bands that aren't prog?  I'm not quite sure what exactly you're asking for... ------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 12 2016 at 23:18
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It sounds like what he's interested in are bands that had varying blends of prog & metal but were not really a part of either subgenre, say like Saga. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: December 12 2016 at 23:27
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Well they ain't 70s era or later being merely 1969 but the first prog metal was probably a little known number called 21st Century Schizoid Man. Some may be familiar with The Kanye West sample, others might be familiar with the King Crimson source of the sample. These same listeners might also think the aforementioned K. West (note subtle Ziggy reference) was a kind of prog metal if you fuse (Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em's Frank Spencer with Motorhead). |
Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 02:02
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Interesting question. Of course there are the usual suspects: Led Zeppelin, Queen, Rainbow, Deep Purple, Judas Priest that influenced a lot of the NWOBHM that emerged in the 80's. I think though that the real progmetal as we know it, started with Queenr˙che, Savatage, Fates Warning. But King Crimson has been named a lot by metalbands, maybe because the heavy tone, the depressing tone. A lot of times a heard Red as a big influence to progmetal. Other bands that are named a lot as a majoor influence are Kansas, Rush and Saga. But in my collection I would say that Queen II (Ogre Battle) and Sheer Heart Attack (Flick of the Wrist) has some real heavy proto-heavy metal tendencies.
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Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 02:03
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 07:37
First of the post seventies (to answer the first part). I was looking for neither prog metal or metal that isn't prog. Not ambiguous. A band can have elements of something without being that thing.
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Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 07:42
| From the 80s, what about Shub-Niggurath? |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 07:48
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The earliest example I could think of was Par Lindh Project's "Mundus Incompertus" from 1997. It's not pure prog metal imo but it definitely has strong elements of it in it. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 07:53
Listening now. So far no metal. I've never heard it before. Sounds good though.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 09:29
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how about The Red Masque? -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 09:55
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Red Rider Saga Triumph Styx -------------   
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 13:11
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I like the Styx mention because "come sail away" does have a metallish guitar that comes in right after the synth section. However, if we are going to go back that far you may as well mention KC "lark's tongues in aspic." ;) May as well mention Rush on that list too.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 13:35
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Rush - Permanent Waves -- released January 1, 1980. EDIT... For another prog band that this time released their debut in 1980 (but not until June) and has a metal component: Cardiac Arrest's The Obvious Identity. Cardiac Arrest later renamed themselves as Cardiacs. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: December 13 2016 at 20:51
| I would throw in "I Want You (She's so Heavy)", from The Beatles. As for 80's songs, "Machine Messiah" by Yes. |
Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 02:36
| Saga: Humble Stance and Will it be You? (1977) |
Posted By: RoeDent
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 04:55
| What even is prog metal anyway? Isn't it just heavy guitars in odd time signatures? In which case King Crimson would probably win it. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 05:50
How about "Helter Skelter"? ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 08:56
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But he is asking about progressive bands post 70's. The Who ~ Baba O'Riley (1971)........ -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 11:28
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Rush 2112 = Prog metal. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 12:10
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I personally think that Rush's Permant Waves makes more sense for the topic since he's asking for post 70s, and Permanent Waves was released on January 1st, 1980. I wonder if he means bands that debuted post 70s, though. The OP combined with topic title is rather ambiguous to me even with the explanation. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 12:48
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 15:03
Agree...confusing. Was the topic title changed? I thought it read something like first band to have prog metal elements. Because to me the first prog band to have metal elements (post 70's) would be Rush.....(pre 70's) would be King Crimson. I dunno..... -------------
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: December 14 2016 at 20:44
I have read often about people considering Helter Skelter metal sounding, but I just can't hear it. For me it's just a heavy and crazy song, but doesn't have the distorted guitars that for me make the music metal... on the other hand, that ending on I Want You is much closer to what sounds like metal to me. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 04:53
Yes, I did. I was interested in hearing about bands post seventies at the minimum. I guess I wasn't too clear about that and I also wasn't clear in the title(but there's only so much room). I apologize for the confusion. In my mind however there wasn't really any metal elements in prog until the 90's. There were proto metal elements(Uriah Heep, Rush and King Crimson for example)but I don't necessarily consider them metal enough and even if I did they were pre 80's. Unlike many on here I never really considered Rush to be a metal band anyway. Does singing about ancient greek culture and technology and wearing Kimonos scream metal to you? To me it sure doesn't. Maybe if there is such a thing as geek metal but to me that would be an oxymoron. Metal is suppose to be about blood and death and sex and throwing the horns. Isn't it?  It's interesting to me that Rainbow hasn't been mentioned. Wouldn't they be just as valid as Rush? Or were they not prog enough? Not really sure. I only have their first album and need to listen to it again.Since you guys mentioned it and since my title didn't say post seventies I'm ok with exploring pre 80's. For me the best examples of songs that combined prog metal or early metal with prog(or by bands who were more prog) would be : Genesis- The Knife (maybe the musical box too) King Crimson- 21st century Schizoid man, pictures of a city, larks tongues in aspic part one, red Pink Floyd- The Nile song Deep Purple- Child in Time Uriah Heep (first album) Black Sabbath (well I hear prog elements in there although I admit the prog elements were stronger on later albums) Also, the band High Tide were apparently the first(or at least one of the first)to combine prog with metal(or metallish elements or at least or heavy/hard rock)
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Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 04:56
| (Rainbow certainly more valid than Rush!) |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 05:05
Tell you what. Go to youtube and look for the live Paul McCartney version. That just might change your mind. I agree about the guitars though. I think there are heavier sounding guitars on other songs on the white album actually.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 07:31
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Mike: Sorry not directly quoting, but I get walls of code when I quote which need cleaning up, and then I don't like to lose any context by not quoting in full. As for the topic title, it's no big deal. It's not always easy to come up with an adequately descriptive title in few words (phrasing the title in the form of a question tends to require more words.... I often resort to ellipses at the end, but that rarely looks good to me). Sorry, totally unimportant point to start with but I just woke up. I don't consider Rush to be metal, I call it hard rock, but it does have elements of what I consider to be metal (or classic heavy metal qualities). For me there were metal elements in Progressive Rock going back to the late 60s, but I guess it depends upon how broadly one defines metal, Prog, and what particular elements one considers characteristic of metal music. I've known some who don't consider classic heavy metal to be metal, but I'm not one of them. There are lots of styles of metal with varying expressions and themes such as death metal, thrash metal, speed metal, aluminum, Christian metal, and of course kimono metal which traditionally should be played by geisha girls that look like Geddy Lee. ;) I would consider Rainbow to be more metal than Rush. A valid band to mention from what I know, which is only the band's 70's output. I only know Rainbow's first two albums, but those are on the heavy metal spectrum -- rainbow, spectrum, get it? -- and I would consider Rainbow Rising as Prog enough. But yes if talking earlier than 80's albums, then certainly. Just in case it wasn't clear, I mentioned that Rush album (Permanent Waves) particularly due its release date, January 1, 1980 as I wanted to think of something Prog that was released as soon after the 1970's as possible that has a heavy metal quality without necessarily being metal. It's a progressive hard rock album that I would not define as metal but still has elements that I associate with metal. In a sense, all rock can be associated with metal, though. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 07:47
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There were metal bands influenced by prog in the '80s, but they were considered metal and not prog. Since the 80s there has been a growing metal influence in some prog. So, from my view, the OP is looking for a metal band from the 80s that was influenced by prog, not a prog band from the 90s influenced by metal. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 10:00
Scorpions~Animal Magnetism Scorpions~China White Saxon~Watching the Sky Saxon~The Eagle Has Landed Saxon~Crusader Michael Schenker Group~Desert Song UFO~Love to Love -------------
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 10:52
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[So, from my view, the OP is looking for a metal band from the 80s that was influenced by prog, not a prog band from the 90s influenced by metal. ] Actually, you have it backwards. I was looking for prog bands influenced by metal(but without being full blown metal themselves(ie prog metal). Also, they didn't necessarily have to be from the eighties.
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Posted By: andreol263
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 10:57
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Maybe i'm terrible wrong, but i can fell a dense atmosphere from this album only recreated in some black metal albums, and it's pretty heavy sometimes too ------------- 
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 11:15
| ^Oh yeah, that's the album that was listed(on here and on gnosis)as being from 1969 which it is most clearly not. Lol. I checked discogs and the actual release date of that Jacula is 2001. It's possible the material was written and conceived in 1969 but listen to the guitars, the drum sound and the over all production. Other than the guitar it's not really that metallish imo. |
Posted By: andreol263
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 11:26
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Well, the same band has another album from 1972 who is from the same vein from that one.. -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 14:04
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Porcupine Tree -------------
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Posted By: TheH
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 15:39
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If the 70s are ruled out, so lets have a look at the 80s. Progressive Rock and Hard Rock where children of the same mother in the 70s, so where Heavy Metal and Neo Prog in the 80s. Actually there wasn't a difference between the New Wave of British Heavy Metal (NWOBHM) and the New Wave of British Progressive Rock (NWOBPR) at all. The Neo Prog bands where considered as part of the HM revival. Some bands where clearly part of both worlds like Omega (who also performed as Metal band Apocalypse) or Kooga or Demon
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 17:59
Well, they didn't introduce metal elements until 2002. I would say hard rock before that but maybe not quite metal. In 2000 the band Arena put out "Immortal?" which had metal elements but I think there were bands before them.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 21:16
From Rainbow you should check out Rising... and the live album On Stage. I just got the first one recently, and I found it very enjoyable, but Rising is better, and "Watcher of the Skies" is my favourite song from them... plus perhaps a perfect example of what you want as an early mix of prog and metal. On Stage has some songs from the first one, and for me they are much better. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 21:30
| I was just checking out Mike Oldfields apreciation thread, and someone mentioning Hergest Ridge just reminded me of a very distorted guitar section at the middle of side two that could actually be considered to sound something near metal, so I might dare consider that one has both prog and metal elements. |
Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: December 15 2016 at 22:45
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Taurus II by Mike Oldfield is pretty hard rocking: |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 18 2016 at 06:45
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------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: December 19 2016 at 20:30
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Having grown up with a brother who was an early metal head I have to say, without hesitation or question, that Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Blue Öyster Cult, Humble Pie, Alvin Lee, Jeff Beck Group, Blind Faith, Thin Lizzy, Nazareth, AC/DC and even Uriah Heep and Rush were quintessential to the original "Heavy Metal" assignation. Any of those bands who have been admitted as "prog bands" or even proto- or prog-related earn my vote for the answer to the OP.
------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 20 2016 at 06:34
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There are lots of metal bands with prog elements. Most of the suggestions here fall under that category. As doe prog bands with metal elements, other than the very obvious King Crimson? Jethro th Tull flirted with metal every once in a while. If you are willing to stretch a point you might say that Yes included teeny tiny bits of metal on Fragile anf CTTE. Honestly though, the influence has been nearly entirely prog to metal until metsl exploded in popularity in the '80's. ------------- 
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: December 23 2016 at 09:35
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What a bizarre framework for this question. The 80's were a time of killing prog elements, not adding elements to it. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 25 2016 at 06:47
I was thinking that Scorpions did not really start their metal/thrash until their 3rd album ... "In Trance" I think it was called ... in 1975. "Lonesome" Crow was more "progressive", if the long cut fits, then "Fly to the Rainbow" was more of a trip and rock/blues thing ... and then "In Trance", it went totally out and loud and rip! I still like the album "Fly to the Rainbow" a heck of a lot! There are a couple of things worth playing in a show from that album that stand out, whereas most anything else after ... is too much the same for my ear. Some good things here and there, though, no doubt! I, much more, thought that things like Edgar Broughton Band, that were way too weird and far out were very "metallic" in that they were very raw ... and when they cleaned up stuff neatly, they did "Oora" and "Bandages", and both those albums are sublime, although not quite "metal", but with some really special touches. On interest, is Tony McPhee with The Groundhogs. And "Crosscut Saw" and "Black Diamond" are very heavy power blues, with a lot of metal touches, though I think that many folks get turned of by his singing, but when you hear "Live Right", it's enough for you to go ... wow ... that's well done! And you go back, and yeah it is. I was thinking Uriah Heep, but honestly I fell out of that loop, even with Deep Purple in the midst of it at the time. The European scene and many other bands were far better defined and interesting for me. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: December 25 2016 at 10:48
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For early 80's prog rock that boasts some metal in their sound but would not be categorized as metal due to it being only one element of the overall sound...Japan had more than a few acts doing exactly that. Novela were one of the first... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr-USiqFKQo" rel="nofollow - here's a track from 1980. Starless (whom I dig), a female fronted prog act with hard rock and metal elements, released their first album in 1985. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyBCmzjXdY" rel="nofollow - Here's a track from it. Like how some of theJapanese bands at the time were named after classic 70's Brit albums.  Also, lots of kimono wearing in the metal scene from Ningen-isu to Onmyo-Za. Shouldn't be a surprise though.  As for ancient Greek culture as a metal theme, the most brash, cheesiest, most metal lovin' heavy metal band of them all, Manowar, has a 28 minute epic song called "Achilles, Agony and Ecstasy in Eight Parts" on their The Triumph of Steel album.  No shortage of Greek mythology-based metal tracks for sure, such as "Flight of Icarus" by Iron Maiden.
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Posted By: Rapanoid
Date Posted: December 26 2016 at 19:41
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Atomic rooster? Drama's Yes? UFO's 1st L.P. |
Posted By: Rapanoid
Date Posted: December 26 2016 at 19:45
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Buldozer
Pyramis |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 27 2016 at 07:12
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------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Rapanoid
Date Posted: December 27 2016 at 10:04
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The Australian underated band called "Good rats" and their 1974 "Tasty" L.P. It was an absoutely amazing record where Hard rock clearly turns to Prog |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: December 28 2016 at 13:11
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'Tull and 'Giant had occasional metal guitar riffs sprinkled throughout. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |