Which of these youthful ideals...
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Topic: Which of these youthful ideals...
Posted By: condor
Subject: Which of these youthful ideals...
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 10:04
| ..Do you still hold to? |
Replies:
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 10:08
 wuuuut?
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 10:47
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Guns are evil, all the way. Never changed my mind on that one. I did break down and send my daughter to a private school, but she was bored senseless in the public one and I didn't see why she should suffer for my ideals.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 10:58
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Only one thing still holds true for me and that is that it's ok to eat fish cause they don't have any feelings. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 11:07
| Cruelty to fish is never mentioned these days. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 11:09
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We're too afraid to get our hands wet! ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 11:15
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Somewhere there is a support group for abused fish |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 11:28
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I don't know where you get "youthful". Do you think these issues just came up in the last ten years or so? They're all ridiculous except maybe the one about smoking.
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 12:02
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Once an atheist... ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 12:03
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^Barring empirical evidence of course. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 12:06
I think 'condor' is only about 15 years old.....that explains most of his thread topics.  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
TeleStrat wrote:Posted By: Ozark Soundscape
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 12:08
|
No god and private school. Some others I kind of believe but to lesser extremes. |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 12:30
| ^^ That would explain things. |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 12:33
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Posted By: condor
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 13:13
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Posting threads on progarchives satisfies my curiosity and is one of the few things that keeps me happy. I like to know how people's minds think. If the threads were as pointless as you make out, no one would bother replying. If you don't find the threads interesting, just ignore them. I would find that less insulting.
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Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 13:25
| ^ I enjoy your threads, keep them coming. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 13:26
Unlikely.....but I think he or someone posted that he was fairly young. Which as someone else mentioned would explain the series of rather odd thread topics. IMHO many of the topics are juvenile in nature.....and this is not meant to disparage him, just an observation.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: sublime220
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 13:55
|
Never a private school. I know many kids who did, and their social skills were severely impaired. Being in a place with a wide variety of students is extremely beneficial. ------------- There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark... |
Posted By: bloodnarfer
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 14:26
|
private schools
I ain't paying for that sh*t if it's already free ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ramza1316" rel="nofollow - www.last.fm/user/ramza1316 https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845" rel="nofollow - https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845 |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 15:11
what makes you think it is impossible to find a private school without a wide variety of students?
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 15:23
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That I can't play football with half a liver. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 15:56
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 16:00
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I don't believe I've ever held to any of these. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 16:41
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You don't have to make a thread about every single thought that crosses your mind |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 19:38
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Ahem, didn't believe in most of these ideals even when I was in college and nothing much has changed 10 years after the fact. Maybe I am less pro-capitalist than in college, if anything...by which I mean capitalism as defined by the so called neo liberal 'Washington' consensus which is just a cover for full on cronyism and egregious corporate fraud in the name of deregulation as far as I am concerned. About the only thing I believed in then and now is the abolition of nation states which I know will never happen. But I just think it's a bloody waste to have nation states and then all these states squabbling with each other constantly for resources, resulting in wars and a mountain of defence expenditure. Even considering the spin off effects of defence expenditure, I can't help but think this money would be better spent in giving the gift of education to those who can't afford it and are therefore trapped in lifelong poverty. It's a shame that India can't settle issues with Pakistan and therefore has to spend bigtime on defence when we have, what, the world's largest collection of the poor or something like that.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 19:59
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Would've voted 'Meat is Murder' but I didn't used to think that even though it's closest to my beliefs now regarding animals (and no, I'm not a veg) . Voted 'None of Them' . ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 20:06
why not? everyone else seems to.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 20:46
 - - - ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 21:04
TIL Svetonio, Condor, Micky and Icarium are "everybody" on a website with over 50000 members |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 21:10
|
I believe in none of them, save perhaps the smoking thing. After understanding what the avoidable activity does to even the toughest of constitution, there's at least a streak of idiot running through them. (And I count myself in those idiot ranks for many years.) It's hard to quit but it is doable and the benefits are substantial even if you've puffed away for decades. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 21:50
You can do anything with alcoholism if you put your mind to it. At least, that's what I was taught in elementary school. But you are right. I had liver on the brain and just went with it. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 14 2015 at 22:01
 ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 15 2015 at 20:54
| I have no beliefs. 'I don't believe there is a God' is not the same as 'I believe there is no God'. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 15 2015 at 21:06
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"Only idiots smoke" ... what an arrogant stance. Define "idiot" in this context. I believe there is no god.
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Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: October 15 2015 at 21:09
| I'm vegetarian, so of course I believe that meat is murder, but I don't insult others for eating meat. I don't care one bit if someone wants to eat meat. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 15 2015 at 21:33
|
Guns and Gods ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: SquonkHunter
Date Posted: October 15 2015 at 23:47
I know I didn't. ------------- "You never had the things you thought you should have had and you'll not get them now..." |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 01:34
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Does 27 mean I can look back on my youthful ideas? Actually, that's perfect! The youthful idea that 27 is no longer youthful I held onto that one until 2 years ago. Letting go of it has been perhaps the best thing I've done in my life so far.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 04:14
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I held none of these "beliefs" in my youth. That I consider some of them now I regard that as a product of maturity. ------------- What? |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 04:19
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There are two in this list that I do believe in to a certain extent: Guns are evil
------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 05:55
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Monogamy is ridiculous - the concept of legal marriage maybe, but monogomy suits me just fine Capitalism must be abolished - all -isms are silly, there are no one-size-fits-all ideologies There is no god - immaterial if there is or their isn't - gods are a redundant concept - we've managed to dispel belief in the majority of them, it's only a matter of time before the last remaining few are dispatched or their believers wipe each other from the planet. Meat is murder - an emotional reaction that I couldn't care an less about. All food should be treated with dignity. Nation states will go - nope. Leadership is evil - people are evil, the love of power is evil. Guns are evil - people are evil, the love of guns is evil. My kids will never go to a private school - moot since she didn't; however I spent more money per annum paying for a child-minder to look after her during the day before she reached school age than the fees for a private school would have cost. Only idiots smoke - I've met several idiots in my time, not all of them smoked. All of them - no, not all of them None of them - no, not none of them ------------- What? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 08:47
A perfect encapsulation of my view - particularly the private school/child care one - the $ spent on daycare for two kids...  |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 09:05
Private school (I reckon) saved me money in the long run, because not only was my daughter able to skip a year of university (because of credits earned through her excellent AP classes and exam results), but her increased grades from a very reputable school and her increased test scores certainly paid off in scholarship money. I probably invested $30,00 in five years of fees but saved closer to $50,00 in university tuition and costs. I don't think they have AP (advanced placement) classes in the UK so this calculation only applies to the US.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 09:09
Are you saying five years of private school for $30,000? That's unbelievably cheap. There is no private school in my area that's anywhere close except for Catholic schools. Some approach $20k per year in tuition. $6k per year would be an easy sell for me if the public school my kids went to sucked. Fortunately for us, our public schools are among the best in the state. |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 09:20
Three years of that was Catholic school (about $6.5 K a year) and before that 2 years of Montessori (about $6 K a year). So $32.5 K in all. Don't get me wrong, I always prefer a public education, and would have kept in her public school forever except that the schools were just awful. The classes were on a very low level, and there were constant lockdowns for drug searches.There were five girls in her 9th grade class who were pregnant, and they were all very excited to show off their sonograms. The school provided a nursery for the babies of students, but sex education? that had no place in the classroom. In her Catholic school, on the other hand, they had to take the fake baby home for a weekend. I can't think of a better form of birth control. Money well spent, in my child's case. She had some great teachers and really learned a lot, so college was a breeze for her.
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Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 09:52
I’m a bit surprised at you Dean; you seem to be a logical chap. You’re looking at this one sided only. It can also go the other way; the believers can change this planet into a utopia for mankind. You need to think about all the numerous and great humanitarians as well as leaders that were devotees. Don’t forget about benevolent and compassionate humanitarians such as mother Teresa as well as great leaders such as Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 10:08
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, a good Catholic school is a no brainer compared to a sh*t public school. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 10:20
Back in '95 I think our local catholic school was Ł1200/term (i.e., Ł3600/year) for day-attendees, (now it's Ł3615/term ... which is Ł10,845/year or $16,755/year... you guys get it cheap!). Day-care was costing us around Ł20/day (i.e. Ł4600 a year). Because we both worked we had to continue paying the child-minder after our daughter started school so I would drop her off at the child-minder's house on the way to work and pick her up when I'd finished, for which I think we were chargedŁ50/week. We paid for extra maths and english tuition (not Montessori but Kumon) but that was to cope with the dyslexia she inherited from me. Unfortunately we were unable to pay for her university fees but we paid for her rent (in London), 'phone, internet and rail travel plus paying for her food-shops once a month, (and my wife would sneak her special treats now and then, and occasionally top-up her bank account, that I pretend to know nothing about), so now she is lumbered with a student loan to pay off over the next 25 years, but that's not as big as it could have been. ------------- What? |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 10:33
I was lucky to be able to stay home for the first four years, so saved those issues. My daughter was able to graduate with no loans from university. she will have some from her professional school but she will also be walking into a great paying job so they are manageable. I do hate to see students getting into debt, but under the current system it appears to be inevitable for most.
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Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 10:34
Yep, even for atheists such as ourselves. I told her just to tune out during the monthly masses. She was fine.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 10:43
When she was very young my daughter came home from school very distraught because she had been told by a teacher that I would go to hell for not believing in god. I quietly explained to her that I couldn't go somewhere I didn't believe existed. When she asked where I would go when I died I replied that I didn't know, but as long as there weren't teachers, schools and homework I'd be more than happy. ------------- What? |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 10:52
Fortunately, my daughter didn't get that sort of nonsense even in Catholic school. In fact, the Catholics at that school were much more respectful of her beliefs that some of the fundamentalist students at the public school. One of her classes at the public school once had a debate on whether it was all right to display the Ten Commandments in the classroom. The division was my daughter and one other girl against 28 other students. She held her own and stuck to her beliefs, I'm very proud to say.
 |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 10:54
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I just discovered that university tuition in the UK is capped - how can we make that work here? I would probably be able to pay for both kids if the costs were ~ $13k/year. Our unbounded college costs and the crippling debt we are inflicting on our children needs to stop. |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 10:58
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The UK system is all public, that's the only way they can cap fees. The mix of public and private in the States, coupled with the fact that each state runs its own public universities, makes that impossible here. My husband is still mourning for the days when he got free tuition plus a stipend that paid all his expenses at the University of Bristol. Damn fine education for free. It's a shame that's not true anymore, on the other hand, it did severely restrict access to higher education so there are always tradeoffs.
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 11:01
Alex was very fortunate in being offered a job just prior to graduation that was good from a career perspective but relatively low paid so she started work the week after finishing her finals. Now she repays 9% of her income over the Ł17K threshold, which at present barely covers the annual 0.9% interest charge on her loan. The system is broken and no one looks willing to fix it. Before we copied this student loan idea from the USA the old Student Grant system worked just fine. [I'd make the same statement about the NHS too]. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 11:05
Oh dear, my apologies. If there's anything not to copy, but to instead serve as lessons is what not to do, it's our education and health care. |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 11:06
I absolutely agree with you, the old student grant system was fine, albeit restrictive. She's lucky to be paying .9% interest. My daughter's loans come with a 6.8% interest charge, a whole lot more than you pay here on a car or house. Ridiculous.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 11:19
I am sure Teresa was a great person but not so sure about her followers. Govt has recently insisted that adoption support must not be denied to single parents; if provided, it should be provided universally. The Missionaries of Charity decided this was completely anathema to their Christian values and withdrew adoption support altogether. Not the most spiritual or compassionate act, I must say. I would not completely write off the scope for religion to heal. But for that, it must reform itself...or should I say, be allowed to reform and do away with a lot of 'rules' that are simply incompatible with modern liberal values. Unless we continue to insist modern liberal values by themselves are abhorrent.... which is what hardliners in just about every religion seem to do and thereby end up using it more as a tool that punishes the supposedly non compliant. Somebody like Gandhi broadly held the ability to retain God-faith without letting details of religious ritual and rules get in the way of compassion. But sadly have to say people like him seem to be in a minority.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 11:46
Ah, I was with you right up until you suggested that it also goes the other way, because after 4500 years, 2015 years and 1500 years of different versions of essentially following the same damn god it hasn't done yet and doesn't look like it is going to any time soon. The absolutely shi*ty deeds of the many by far outweigh the good deeds of the few. And as for the Mother Teresa bit... not everyone thinks she was a saint, and looking at the evidence I'm inclined to agree with them. (I'll not rake that up here because it's not relevant and I can't be bothered getting into sl*g.ing-off a dead person, search and ye shall find). ------------- What? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 11:56
Exactly, they have had far too much time to get it done and they haven't because they HAVE to quarrel so much over each religion's version of utopia instead of accepting there may be more than one path to salvation, if there is such a thing. An amusing but very annoying incident that happened in my wedding ceremony. In Hindu marriage, the groom appoints one priest and the bride another and together they both cook up the wedding. Since the bride's priest has more work to do, he gets paid more...accepted convention. Now, to my bad luck, the priest our family appointed (who has performed ceremonies for several of my relatives in the past) happened to be the father in law of the one my wife's family appointed. G-Priest's ego was hurt to learn he would be paid much less than B-Priest and G-Priest chose to punish us by asking for more than what he had initially agreed for. Left a very bad taste in the mouth, needless to say. As it is, I am a strong advocate of just getting a simple ceremony done at the registrar's office and throwing a grand party to relatives and friends instead. Especially so in inter-caste/inter-religion marriages where trying to perform a traditional ceremony as per one religion is just tomfoolery imho. Would have done likewise had my wife not been from a more 'traditional' family. Maybe whenever my little one (there isn't one yet) gets married, I could persuade all concerned of the pros of my idea. What 'sanctity' is supposed to be conferred on the wedding by the priest being there to perform it was robbed by his pettiness, sorry to say.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 12:15
After coughing up most of the cash for my daughter's wedding I'm still reeling from the discovery that in England you have to pay the vicar to perform the marriage ceremony, and pay another vicar to read out the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage" rel="nofollow - banns in another church near where the groom lives. Admittedly the local vicar put on a pretty good show on the day, but for what she charged us for 30 minutes work I was expecting the Vicar of Dibley. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 12:19
I'd like to know what threads Micky has been starting in recent times, or if he's ever started anything comparable to Condor's threads. He hasn't visited the forum in days, and in any case I don't believe he deserves to be treated as a nuisance. |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 12:31
| I have no complaint about either Mickey or any threads he starts, so please don't lump me with Triceratopsoil on this. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 13:19
I wasn't, and apologize for making it look like that. I probably should have looked for his original post, but somewhat ended up replying to your post instead. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 13:26
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I like how they get the forum going. But one thread a day is good enough. Icarium and Mickey don't normally post that many threads, and Ica's don't get enough replies for me to even see them most of the time. Sventonio's offense is only partially the amount of threads he makes. The other part is that they're all bandcamp suggestions. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 13:36
No worries, I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't taking issue, the other guy was.
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Posted By: sublime220
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 13:45
------------- There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark... |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 14:59
He just goes on kicks where he posts 45 prog polls in 1 day, completely flooding every other thread out of view |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 16:23
|
[/QUOTE]
When she was very young my daughter came home from school very distraught because she had been told by a teacher that I would go to hell for not believing in god. I quietly explained to her that I couldn't go somewhere I didn't believe existed. When she asked where I would go when I died I replied that I didn't know, but as long as there weren't teachers, schools and homework I'd be more than happy. [/QUOTE]I went to Catholic school from 1st - 8th grade and it's a
shame how youngsters are indoctrinated by half truths. I was lucky to
conclude by the 4th grade that the nuns as well as "grownups" just
didn't know. I determined this by the answers I received to my questions as
well as the behaviors i witnessed. Some of the nuns were unjust, unfair
and just plain evil. Instead of educators presenting matters as fact, they should present the material as; this is what we know so far, we’re not sure if its right, decide for yourselves, the ball is in your hands. I really wonder how much of our science is completely wrong. And how much is actually right. Question everything, even the basics. There is no such thing as an isolated system in nature so why should the strong force be any different? Maybe there’s something else going on there? |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 16:25
I suggested that it can or may, not necessarily that it will. The future is not certain. As far as if the planet would be better off without religion this is also somewhat uncertain. If the masters such as Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, Lau Tzu, the Buddha’s, etc. never roamed the earth would this world really be better off today? |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 16:47
Those two are my tops on this list, though Monogamy and Capitalism are really close behind But Dean's answer on all choices, I can easily endorse  , with maybe a tad of a shade about private school... I just wish that public schooling was as good (in terms or results) as those bloody private things. |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 18:27
|
If we got rid of the idea of God completely, humanity would suck just as much. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 18:27
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If we got rid of the idea of God completely, humanity would suck just as much. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 19:49
| Yeah....evidently, seeing as it's we who have invented the concept of a God. I do not mean to offend believers and I am a believer who dislikes organised religion really....but God is as much a man made creation as aeroplanes and cars if we look at it from a cold, hard, scientific perspective. Only, like a great writer's work, God resides in our imagination, whereas we can see, feel and touch aeroplanes and cars. So, yeah, I do not subscribe to the atheist myth that eliminating the concept of God would miraculously make the world a better place. Communist Russia is proof enough. My state of origin in India has been under the rule of a party that claims to be atheist and they are no less corrupt than the ones that appeal to religion. Ironically, both parties are equally as likely to look askance if right wing fringe groups kill rationalists who dared to venture too far in questioning superstition and rituals. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 21:22
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 22:04
^
|
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 16 2015 at 22:24
| I just realized I hadn't seen him in a while, and then he turned up in the thread about Jon Anderson's new album. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 02:59
as a confirmed atheist, I can understand that some (more fragile) people need the reassurance of a "universe creator" and some kind of "sense of life" and the "existence of an afterlife", so I can admit that they have some legit needs to believe in (and therfore invent some kind of "god" (such is not my case, I prefer the reverse: a dog ).Some this "god" is a human invention (other forms of animals don't invent such things)... and in itself, this invention is not "evil"... Where "god" become "evil" is when another (much more evil) invention comes in this plan: religion (organized or not)... Indeed, that you admit there is some kind of creator, ok (but only slightly) ... that you wonder how things go about this "thing" , almost "normal"...  That you want to communicate (talking to it) with , that's a bit limit looney  That one pretends that they received an answer from this non-entity, one should start consulting  that one starts wanting to spread this nonsense is dangerous  that one wants to create a "followship" and a fellowship to spread the nonsense is disgusting   that one uses his influence and tries to enforce the nonsense to their advantage is criminal  |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 05:44
| Yeah, organised religion is the problem. Again, I don't distinguish between organised religion and something like communist Russia. There's no difference, loony, headlong and blindfolded belief in an idea that is supposed to have the cure for all ills. And if we are hoping for an atheist, rational, enlightened society, maybe that is simply too much to ask of the human race, sorry to say so. There's nothing that indicates that creating such a civilisation is possible, practically speaking. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 05:49
|
There is no God. I also believe that nation states will eventually go, but we are a century away from that at least - and I don't support the idea, I just believe it will happen. People will be pursauded of the need to do away with borders, over time and through careful programing in the media, peddled by neo liberal governments. I've always beeved monogamy is important as is the family unit, although I don't believe that allowing same sex couples to adopt etc is part of some kind of plan to 'destroy the family' Rolls eyes... ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 07:39
Fixed ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 13:30
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 14:01
| If we are talking borders between nations, then I don't think there will ever be any elimination of the borders as long as there are communities that try to preserve their own identity. But if we are talking borders between districts within the same nation, then that's a whole another story. (I know these are all details from a long, long time ago, but mayhaps relevant to some extent. See http://www.ancient.eu/Western_Roman_Empire/" rel="nofollow - this and http://www.ancient.eu/Byzantine_Empire/" rel="nofollow - this .) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 14:40
Nope... Atheist KNOW there is no god!!! That's what makes us vastly superiors...  gullible religious dud(e)s  believe ... We know |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 16:01
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I chose two "Monogamy is ridiculous" and "There is No God". ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 19:02
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Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 19:34
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Well, when I was young I was religious, now I'm not, so that's the other way around for me. Also I don't believe there's a god, I don't KNOW there's not a god. Two different things. I don't believe capitalism has to be abolished but there's a limit, like what this guy did of raising meds for people with cancer and aids from like $10 to $700 (!). I don't think "guns are evil", nor I never saw everyone believing that, but like any rational person I believe in gun control, fortunately it exists in my country. Never believed meat was murder, nor leadership is evil, or nations would go (though the last one would be good). Don't believe idiots smoke, but I believe smoking is a very idiotic thing to do. Private school depends on the country. Here public schools ain't good, so I would send my kids to private schools, talking about high school, there are public universities that are top. Monogamy, eh, I believe in monogamy, but I would marry not very young. Also, everyone has its views. It's ok not believing in it, but then don't be in a relationship and cheat if you don't. ------------- I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 20:22
| ^ All of that sounds pretty reasonable to me. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 21:44
For administrative purposes, you do need to have at least district level borders. I think there is a HUGE difference as long as you don't give too much authority to districts. You could completely liberate movement of labour from barriers that would otherwise be imposed by nation-states. You could and would be forced to share resources with everyone instead of mounting national barriers to deny access. At the same time, the district level authorities would be charged with maintaining facilities and public services for its residents. All this would of course require plenty of co-operation of a radical level we have not seen before. Which is why it is unlikely to happen.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 04:21
Democracy works just fine with imaginary borders arbitrarily drawn on a map and would continue to work just as well without them. Each home, street, neighbourhood, parish, county, state, province and country operates its own democratic processes simply because what affects people on a local level is of no interest to those who reside outside that immediate locale. The span of control of those empowered to enact those democratic decisions extends as far as the people they can affect and that is set by arbitrary borders, yet the sphere of influence of each democratic decision extends as far as those affected by it and that can ignore those imaginary boundaries... just as a war in one region affects everyone in the neighbouring regions, and that in turn affects those in adjoining regions, a local decision that affects people outside that locale becomes undemocratic for those affected who where not permitted to vote upon it. People in Orange County California are more concerned by who becomes sheriff in their county than they are about who is sheriff in Comanche County Oklahoma or any of the other 3,141 counties in the USA (or the 300 electoral constituencies in Mexico or the 308 federal districts in Canada, etc.,)...When voter turnout in Orange County is as low as 17% then motivation for them to interfere in the voting in Comanche County will be negligible. A better example would be sports. While map-borders are only effective on a national level (though some sports fans have cross-border allegiances even at national level) if we look at club level those borders do not exist, for example football teams like Liverpool and Manchester United have fans all over the world and they by far outnumber any local fans they may have. Another example is "pay what it's worth", which is another system that operates just fine without arbitrarily imposed barriers - sure some people would attend a fence-less concert without paying, (just as some people attempt to jump those fences today), but the majority would pay something. As communication barriers between disparate peoples living in the far corners of the world are broken down, for example by the Internet, we will start seeing our similarities and in time will recognise they are more important than any parochial differences that currently divide us. Once those personal barriers are removed then national ones would become less relevant. This won't happen in our lifetimes, but contrary to Andy's assertion that this will be driven by "neo-liberal governments", it would be driven by the people of the world. [Yeah, that's still a utopian thought, but one that is far more realistic than any political or corporate attempts at globalisation].
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 04:30
Nothing to fix Lazland. The question was which ideal do you still BELIEVE in. I replied 'There is no god' quoting directly the option presented by the poster. It kind of goes without saying that it is my 'belief' that there is no god. Sorry, it's pedant Sunday! ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 04:48
I think it's a little more complex than that. In the EU there are effectively no borders in terms of the citizens right to move between countries and work and live wherever they wish. The rights and wrongs of that are a seperate debate, but generally what I regard the idea of no borders to mean is that there would still be distinct 'regions' with regional administrations with some limited powers, but a global government would preside over the whole lot with the power of veto over regional decisions not deemed to be in the global interest. Global governance however can not be achieved until the exact nature of regional power is agreed and defined. There is already moves towards this model through the World Trade Organisation, World Health Organisation, the UN, the ICC, the G20 etc etc. Recent 'trade' deals like the TTP and the forthcoming TTIP are also maybe part of this. They are consideraby more than trade deals. Ultimately what we could end up with is absolutely no restrictions on passing from one region to another, and this is an easy sell to the liberal left because it is perceived to be about freedom and reflecting the idea that we are "all as one" It works for the right because it allows foreign corporations to simply shift form one gloabl region to another mopping up public infrastructure and creating huge monopolies. That's what deals like the TTP and TTIP are supposed to do IMO. Bush JR's deals with Canada and Mexico for 'super highways' and the concept of the North American Unon are also possibly part of the plan to move towards a world without borders, as breaking those borders down region by region over a long period of time is probably the only way that can be achieved. Imagine trying to do away with borders in the Middle East!! This, again may be one of the reasons we are so keen to install pro western regimes in all those countries; to make that process easier. Doesn't appear to be going very well though. IMO. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 05:02
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the current borders in the Middle East are a direct result of http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25299553" rel="nofollow - Anglo-French meddling a century ago in a region of the world they barely understood. Everything that has occurred since then has merely made everything worse. ------------- What? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 09:27
If this was FB, I would 'like' this comment over and over.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 09:29
Also, Hindustan was Ind, Pak and Bangladesh put together before the partition. I wouldn't blame the Empire completely for that, probably Jinnah was the biggest culprit. But the seeds were planted with the division of Bengal.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 12:43
No need to apologise. I like pedantry. Actually, your post was the unwitting catalyst for something that actually does genuinely bother me, and that is the extreme arrogance I find in many modern atheists. Hugues posted something that spoke of the "fragility" of believers such as myself, and the fact that he knows there is no God, and the rest of us are wilting fantasists. Your post is spot on. You believe there is no God, so I apologise to you in return. Atheism is as much a belief system as a religious one. Not one of us truly knows the "truth", and I suspect that it is a little more clever and subtle than either non belief or belief would have us think. I do not believe because I am fragile. Atheists are equally susceptible to human fragility, anyway. I believe because I believe, and because, in my own little way, I have intelligent rationalism for my beliefs. In other words, I have made an intelligent judgement, based upon evidence. The truth is not the exclusive preserve of atheists. Also, the nonsense that a world run by atheists would be any better is just that. Nonsense. Witness Stalin, for starters. End of Sunday rant. I repeat my apology. My post was really directed at a wider audience, and I should have made that clear. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 15:40
Meh, atheism isn't a belief system, it is the absence of a belief system. The opposite of belief in gods can be expressed in two ways that at face value seem the same but are not (subtle but far from clever):
One is negating the existence of gods and is thus a belief, while the second is negating the belief in the existence of gods and therefore is not a belief. It is easy to confuse these two expressions because once one has been accepted then it tends to imply the other. Since believers in gods cannot prove that their gods exist then atheists only need to reject the belief to be able to assert that [the lack of evidence suggests] gods do not exist. Unlike Hugues, I would never claim to know that there are no gods, but still class myself an atheist rather than an agnostic - as someone with a scientific background I am always wary of any claims to know anything as truth... for me a truth is something that has not yet been proven to be false. Unfortunately you cannot use this line of reasoning for a belief because beliefs are not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability" rel="nofollow - falsifiable so cannot be tested, scientific truths are falsifiable so can be tested. However I agree with Madan when he says that gods are an invention of man, because that is a valid conclusion we can make from the current evidence. Just as we invented a physical object to address a physical need, gods were invented to address a spiritual need. This explains why all human civilisations had/have religion, yet all had/have different gods. As he goes on to say, this does not invalidate belief (it can, but it doesn't have to) only some aspects of the religions that are built around them. For atheists this spiritual need is less important, or is resolved by other means, such as rationalising the world around them. Hugues suggests that spiritual need is an indication of fragility (his actual words were "more fragile"), which is undeniably true for some - some find support and reassurance in religion, especially when they are at their lowest ebb, but generalisations are doomed to be wrong. Would a world without religion be a better place? Who knows? But it cannot be any worse. [The bad deeds of the few regimes that were also atheistic does not counter all the bad deeds committed in the name of religion]. Without religion those who would wage war and oppression would find other excuses, but those would be far harder to justify perhaps. It is difficult to imagine the troubles in Northern Ireland being fought over non-sectarian causes, because when both sides are stripped of their religion then there is little else to separate them. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 16:04
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Very nice post Dean, pretty much agree with all of it. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 16:23
Actually, I always saw the troubles in Northern Ireland as a class-based issue. While I agree that there was little to separate the Protestants and Catholics, it seemed to me that the Protestants were intent on clinging to a system under which they had a very small economic edge. The irony of this was that both sides were so much worse off as long as the sectarian violence continued that the economic edge that the Protestants were trying to hold on to meant very little, except in context. Before everyone leaps in to tell me how misguided and/or ignorant I am of the Northern Ireland situation, bear in mind that I perceive the majority of conflicts in the world as class-based - the issue being how the dominant and repressed class members are defined. In some cases, it is by gender, in some by race, in some by religion, some by tribe and in some by political beliefs. These are all just ways that those in power define those they plan to keep out of power. This doesn't mean that I am a Marxist (anticipating the next criticism). Far from it. This is just how I see the world, as a running conflict between the haves and have-nots. p.s. edited to add, I do agree with the rest of your post, Dean.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 17:30
Dean, I would suggest that the overwhelming majority of atheists, if asked to express an opinion, would deny the existence of God(s). The point I was making, in response to other points on this thread, was that, as you say, is a belief system in itself. The other common definition of atheism, as you say, the denial of a belief system of God(s) is not, of itself, a belief system. It is simply the choice of persons to refuse to partake in such a belief system. Anyone who follows blindly the, for example, "militant" (note quote) atheism of Dawkins (and I have read him, for the purpose of trying to understand his viewpoint) would absolutely deny the existence of God. Dawkins does not just attack the belief system of religious society, although he does that as well, but absolutely seeks to prove that we are just a happy accident of evolution and scientific chance, and that God had bugger all to do with this, because God simply does not exist. I read an interesting quote from him in The Times a few weeks ago. When asked on his thoughts about impending mortality, he said he was not overly concerned. Why? Well, according to the great man, it was "like being under general anaesthetic". Oh really? My retort? How the bloody hell does he know? And does he really imagine that this would be some form of comfort to the great unwashed masses? Why did he feel the need to make such a comment, which is absolutely incapable itself of being proven, or unproven. He is a scientist. Why not respond as one, instead of speaking for all the world as if he, himself, is the guru of a pseudo religious, or anti religious, cult? I stand by my comment regarding the arrogance of much of modern atheism, and I hope that this is not a generalisation we would both object to. As a scientist, you will know that we are no closer to truly understanding where, or how, creation came about. Until that day comes, I will continue my fragile beliefs. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |