The Mellotron and Moog Modular
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101171
Printed Date: November 27 2024 at 07:02
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Topic: The Mellotron and Moog Modular
Posted By: Davesax1965
Subject: The Mellotron and Moog Modular
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 10:04
Just in case we'd all forgotten, that, above, in all its' whiteness, is a Mellotron. Behold also, gentle reader, a Moog Modular.  Crivens ! - I hear you say, great horneytoads and crikey. The instruments which defined late 1960's prog. How desirable these venerable musical rarities must be. Throw 'em on the fireback, says I. ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 10:07
Now, behold - (1) a software modelled Mellotron -  ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 10:09
And ditto, a Moog Modular, modelled in software. ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 10:16
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So. I come in. I switch on the PC, I start up Cubase. I add a track, and I can choose from 1001 instruments, hundreds of presets, I don't have to plug anything in, I don't have to warm anything up, I don't have to find $50,000 for a vintage instrument which will go wrong, requiring ruinously expensive repairs.... and they sound the same. End of argument for me. Robert Fripp one said that "Tuning a Mellotron..... doesn't." The limitations of both systems are enormous. The Mellotron is tape driven. Want a different sound ? Change - physically - god knows how many loops of tape. The tapes only run for about 8 seconds, so you have no sustain. It's even worse with a real Moog. Unless you learn to plug one thing into another properly - no noise whatsoever. When you finally have got the beast to emit sound, it plays one note at a time. Then, after 15 minutes, due to the poor electronics its' constructed from, it begins to drift out of tune and you have to put your Piano Tuner hat on and tune up to six oscillators at once. Also. Try taking these on tour. Tangerine Dream did. The power supplies in the Moog detached and fell through the units, causing untold damage to an incredibly rare piece of kit two days before a concert. Nightmare. No, the software sounds good enough and is 1000 times easier to use, maintain and mess about with. If Keith Emerson were buying a Moog today, he'd go for the VST version. A lot of hero worship of old instruments exist - I played a lot of old instruments first time around and they're klunky, limited and ultimately frustrating. Thank you but no thank you. ------------- |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 11:03
| I played a mellotron in the 70's while traveling with an original band. Often tuned by a roadie. It had a few pre-recorded sound effects..unlike the one The Beatles used in the late 60's which was suppose to have many tape recordings of audiences clapping, sirens, and voices. What model would that be? I must research it! |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 11:07
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The 400 ??? ;-) You have my severe condolences. ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 11:08
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I can pass on the physical Moog - in fact, if I were to do even a standard prog album, I wouldn't use any Moog whatsoever. But the Mellotron, I can use. Especially if, through wrestling with it, I can get it to sound gloomy. And then I'd spring for a physical Mellotron.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 11:18
| That's all alright Dave, surely those instruments were a pain, but it also means that those guys who mastered them needed something current musicians do not need having. They had to tame those beasts, they had to fiddle with knobs and switches and patch cables and pedals while playing live in front of their audiences, dealing with the fact that some of them were monophonic, some of them did not have a velocity-sensitive keyboard or aftertouch, or they could not store presets... While current musicians just need to sequentially push a 'next patch' button and they can concentrate on their fingers without worrying about the instrument and sound they are playing. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 12:19
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To quote the great Robert Fripp: "A mellotron is never in tune." Excellent! ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 12:56
Thanks for the link to "Brotherhood of the Machine," they have a synth sound that reminds me of High T Moonweed from "Gong"! Very similar to "Gong-You"! Even better than modeled Mellotron is to buy actual samples of Mellotron tapes, taken from a very clean set of studio tapes. I have a set of these, they are fun to play with!! All the glory of the old Mellotron sound & none of the mechanical hassle. Fripp triggers old Mellotron samples with his synth guitar, fun to watch in concert!
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Davesax1965 wrote:Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 14:03
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.........and an EMS Synthi........the Kings of P.I.T.A. .........but I'd still like the 'real deal' when it comes to 'tron. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 22:56
I learned a little about synths with an ARP2600, not quite the same beast as that Moog Modulator but a bear to work with still. My two favorite patches: One a buddy and I created that went something like "Blik-Whonk-WHEEEEeeeeeeeeee-Boing-Blatch. Our teacher had to study that one and to be honest I have no idea how we actually did it. The other was created by our teacher and we called it "Oatmeal" because it sounded like a big cauldron of the stuff burbling and bubbling. We had to be careful about hitting too high a note or it would boil over!  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 23:02
Does he tap into the software or does he make his guitar sound like a Mellotron just by itself? If the latter, that's amazing. If I had to get physical copies of interments - assuming I ever get enough money to by the things - I'll go with the digital Mellotron. I'll pass on The Modular Moog and get me a Minimoog.
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 00:15
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Several years ago, the local trading post had an M400 listed for sale - $800 not working. Apparently, the seller got dozens of phone calls with offers into the 1000's. He pulled the plug on it (the sale, haha) and eventually some big instrument repairs/sales centre whipped it up, probably for more than the 800 he asked. And some of the modern patches sound so convincing, even having the 'raspy' qualities of the genuine machines. Remember Astra's debut album The Weirding ?? Bluffed me until Andy T (Planet Mellotron) shed light on its source. Finnish band Kosmos, same deal. Getting hard to spot the difference. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 02:45
Fripp triggers synthesizer with his Japanese-made guitars, which incorporate both conventional magnetic pickups and synth pickups. I saw him trigger Mellotron patches on both the Thrak and last (2014) tours, it is amazing to watch him do this! Also, in the 2014 tour, he actually had a small conventional keyboard within his onstage working area, and I think he played some Mellotron patches on that as well! There was so much going on that it was hard to figure out who was doing what! (Gavin Harrison also played Mellotron synth when not drumming, it was amazing)! I dearly love the Mellotron, but I sure don't want to have to pay for the upkeep!! |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 07:09
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I started off on a Korg MS-10 which I later sold for £175. I was sitting in the music shop with the cash burning a hole in my pocket, picked up a Rickenbacker 4001 which no one seemed to want, played a few bass lines, thought.... "nah" for some reason, and put it back in the rack. It was..... £175 at the time. Expensive mistake. ;-) Alas, old technology - Mellotrons et al - been there, done that. I'm sure it's a wonder and a delight to the youthpersons of today. Until they realise the limitations and the fun wears off, which I don't imagine will take too long. ------------- |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 07:34
^ My father had a Roland SH-101 and he sold it for a ridiculous price back then, something he regrets nowadays  I brought from the attic a few months ago his Yamaha DSR-2000 which is nothing fantastic but I love its bright analog sound and how easy it is to work with it. I will certainly use it in my music
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 07:41
Oh no, he's right. And I hate Gong.  That's me, by the way, cstack. Glad you liked it. :-)
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 12:02
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As I just posted in another thread, I just purchased on eBay a 2nd hand e-Mu Vintage Keys synth, this is a digital synth made around 2002 which presets (512 of them) are samples of vintage instruments like several Mellotron patches, Modular Moogs, Minimoogs, several ARP synths, Clavinet etc. Besides it's a real synth, so you can modify the presets (it has another bank of 512 presets to store your own user presets so in total you can have 1024 presets, still expandable with SIMM cards which I don't think I will need), or, if you know enough about synthesis (which I don't), you can create your own sounds from scratch as in a genuine vintage synth (but digital). I just got it 4 days ago and I will need some time to learn about it. For me this is a good compromise between the real thing (which I agree were surely a pain) and the software instruments you favour, OK the sounds are pre-programmed but it's still a physical keyboard which I need to play with my fingers, and any expression or modulation I need to play with my hands using its keyboard pressure sensitivity, aftertouch, its control wheels and knobs... not just programming in a computer DAW a VST instrument track. It's an instrument and I need to play it, it's not a computer sounding according to what I have programmed into it (unless you use your software instruments with a physical keyboard controller, which perhaps you do).  |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 23:21
My pleasure!  Keep up the excellent work, I miss the old days of twisting knobs on analog synths, messing with filters & oscillators, holding keyboard keys down with paperweights to get the sustain I want etc.!! A lot of truly great prog music was probably quite accidental!
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 03 2015 at 07:04
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Hi Gerinski, that was a good buy !!!! We're getting a new house in a bit, so !!! the 18x11 garage gets converted (eventually) into a proper studio. With, incidentally, inbuilt psychedelic light show. ;-) I'm going to get some second / third / thirty third hand synths, and that looks like one worth investigating !!! Cstack, I have to say that holding keys down with paperweights is a musical first for me. ;-) There y'go, spirit of experimentation, well done, mate. ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 03 2015 at 07:06
This is what my crappy DIY skills will be attempting to emulate, but with more auralex (live end / dead end) and a freaky light show hanging off a lighting bar. ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 03 2015 at 07:13
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As a PS, I don't know if you gentlemens have seen this, but Livid Instruments produce a "brain" which can be wired up with pots and sliders to make custom MIDI controllers. The only thing a physical modular synth confers is the ease of twiddling everything at once. Behold........ just add pots. They do some pre-built MIDI controllers already, but it's possible to build custom kits using this, some solder, swearing and withering looks from your Missus.  ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: February 03 2015 at 07:49
PS Talking of the EMS Synthi A - which Tom was earlier.... - I saw a few originals in music shops in Manchester in the late 70's. Peter Zinovieff was the quintessential electronic genius, and they're certainly interesting to use, but the patchboard is nightmarish. Such was 70's technology. ;-)Incidentally, and I hope Tom might like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA6Fb0nuAYw" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA6Fb0nuAYw Zinovieff has a tie in with Delia Derbyshire of "Dr Who Theme / drank herself to death" fame. Of course, the original theme was done without synths. I actually did a version of it on the first Brotherhood album - not available any more - a seven minute jam on the original Dr Who theme, called "Variations on a theme". I'll slap it on the next album, it's worth a listen if you dig that kind of groovy thang, man. ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: February 03 2015 at 11:02
I hope I will be pleased with it . They are not easy to find in keyboard model, at least here in Europe, it took me quite a while to find it and I had to travel to northern Netherland to collect it (not that far for US standards I know!). You can much more easily find the rack version (there are 2, Vintage Keys and Vintage Keys Pro) but then you need a separate keyboard controller and I didn't want that (I believe that the sounds are not exactly the same in the keyboard and rack versions).Incidentally the seller was the keyboardist / singer of the now discontinued Dutch Symphonic Prog band Salmon who are listed in PA. He was a very nice guy and gave me a copy of their 2 CDs which I plan to review some day. The negative sides: E-Mu was purchased by Creative and Creative discontinued all the line of physical instruments (they concentrate on virtual instruments only, I believe) so support and spare parts may be hard to get. As it comes from factory it ONLY includes vintage keyboards and synths sounds (including Yamaha CP70 as piano and Moog Taurus as bass), so you do not have traditional instruments such as guitars, bells, whistles, winds, brass etc except for the few Mellotron patches for flute, strings, brass etc. Originally there was a line-up of additional SIMM cards with different sets of sounds, 'GM and other traditional instruments', 'orchestral', 'techno', 'hip-hop' etc but these are discontinued and difficult to find nowadays. There are one or two guys who still 'burn' them on blank SIMM cards but they ask high prices, I bought the one with traditional instruments (it includes also the GM bank) in order to complement the factory presets, but I had to pay a significant price for it, I haven't received it yet, it should be a matter of days. Good luck with your studio! I don't have the space even for a simple 'playing' room
 . |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: February 03 2015 at 11:10
Yeah, or you have also physical keyboards specifically designed to work as controllers on MIDI instruments, but still you have to constantly program which slider or pot controls what etc, that's what I didn't want and why I chose for the Vintage Keys keyboard model. Of course sometimes you still have to assign controllers to functions but I reckon it's pretty easy as it is an integrated instrument.
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Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: February 05 2015 at 16:35
| I just like to listen. |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: February 05 2015 at 16:57
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Best Mellotron demo ever I just created a custom voice on the Yamaha synth that sounds a lot like the classic Nintendo sound. I'm playing Nintendo's greatest hits now  What do you guys think of the most recent analog synths, like Korg, Novation, Arturia, etc? I think the tiny Korg Monotron sounds cute  |
Posted By: jacksiedanny
Date Posted: February 05 2015 at 21:37
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There is now a virtual VCS3 with keyboard you can have for $15. Apparently they did a remarkable job on this - a primo, primo app. A 30 minute youtube has the guy admitting he doesnt really know what he is doing - but who did? (Besides Vorhaus, that is) . The thing was a marvel of complete randomness. That Moog Modular software has me salivating. Any app of that developed yet? Speaking of Synthi - has there been a topic heading here yet about lesser-known (besides Who,Hawkwind,Floyd) bands using it back in the day? |
Posted By: King Only
Date Posted: February 19 2015 at 23:53
I really like the Novation Bass Station II, the Doepfer Dark Energy II, the Waldorf Pulse 2, the Studio Electronics Boomstars, the MFB Dominion X SED, the Tom Oberheim SEM (patch panel version), the Vermona Perfourmer Mark II and the Vermona Retroverb Lancet (an analog multimode filter with a real built in spring reverb, a flexible LFO, envelope and overdrive). The new Mellotron 4000D mini is great too. The modular synth scene is also awesome at the moment, so many great modules from many different companies.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: February 20 2015 at 00:02
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Posted By: Pornstache
Date Posted: April 03 2015 at 20:29
| I'm using RedTron vst with a MIDI Keyboard, mellotrons have a beautiful sound. It's a shame their sustain is crap (it also sounds pretty bad during note transitions but people usually don't notice it when it's part of the mix among other instruments). |
Posted By: Lafayette Assburn
Date Posted: April 04 2015 at 07:38
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There is an interview of Stubbs with Vorhaus. (I would post the link here but for the fact that, for some reason, I'm not allowed to cut and paste.) Talks about the "importance of forward motion"; the "cumbersome devices of yor". Also we learn that Derbyshire,Hodgeson & Zinovieff played at the Roundhouse! And who would of thought that Vorhaus' (doomed to be dated) second lp, a concerto for VCS3s - with the tropical swordfish on the cover - immediately sold so well (jump-boarding off the sucess of WhiteNoise). |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 04 2015 at 07:57
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Y'know, those note-to-note transitions are part of the charm........ I notice, especially with the flute sounds, some notes are louder than others in the final mix. This is what an M400 is all about. Samples sound great, no probs there, but the actual machine has those limitations which are so endearing to many of us.. |
Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: April 04 2015 at 08:38
Back in the early 70's Robert Mason built the Stardrive synthesizer. Reportedly the first synthesizer that could play cords. |
Posted By: Lafayette Assburn
Date Posted: April 04 2015 at 09:46
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I gots this lp. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 04 2015 at 09:56
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Poly-synths opened a *lot* of doors, yet took a while to warm to. At least the Polymoog was purportedly offering multi mini-moog sounds - when Wakeman utilised 2 or more mini-moogs, it sounded fantastic, yet when he got his hands on a Polymoog, it sounded somewhat cheesy. What's the go there ?? |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: April 05 2015 at 08:20
Here's a quite long but interesting article about the Polymoog and why it wasn't the dream polysynth everybody had been hoping for. A lot of features on paper, but in the end its sounds were rather thin and they suffered of reliability problems. There's also a small comment by Keith Emerson about it. http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun98/articles/polymoog.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun98/articles/polymoog.html
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 05 2015 at 10:06
| ^ Interestjng read for sure - thanks for posting !! |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: April 05 2015 at 10:46
^^ Thanks for sharing Gerard 
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