Why old prog - for me - is better than new prog
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Topic: Why old prog - for me - is better than new prog
Posted By: Davesax1965
Subject: Why old prog - for me - is better than new prog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:27
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(Oh dear, stirring the pot here !! ) Hi folks, and now !! A thread where I tell you why - for me - old prog is better than new prog. Really simple reason.... Association. When I stick on "Dark Side", I'm sitting around at my uncles' house in 1975 with a Mathmos oil lamp on. I stick on King Crimson, and I'm back with my mates in the early 1980's, smashed out of my mind and talking complete gibberish in a selection of grotty flats in Manchester at 2am. I put on something like Hawkwind and I'm back at UMIST rock night with my mates in the mid 80-'s, full of beer and, er, herbal tobacco, officer. And so it goes. Not just the music but the memories. I am knocking on the door of 50, so I have very few associative memories concerning "new prog". Really, it's not just about the music but the scene that the music evokes. ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:55
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Sigh, nostalgia is the bane of the modern world. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: WrytXander
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 06:14
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Well since you're basing your argument on "memories", consider the fact that some do not possess similar memories, therefore factoring nostalgia is not a good idea in this case (or EVER). Once you look at it from a music standpoint, then can you really reach a sensible conclusion. Once you start talking about your memories and say one is "better" than the other, that makes you sound like a closed-minded back-in-my-day kind of person... It's not better, not even for you, you're just adding your friends and beer to the equation so the music's quality doesn't really matter at all. No offence meant with any of this, just saying  ------------- 20+ prog bands discovered and explored in 3 years, still going strong... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 06:54
sigh, nostalgia is the bane of objectivity... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
sleeper wrote:Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 07:17
 to both - and this from a person who very often reminisces about the past. At my first NEARfest, in 2009, I was almost in tears when PFM played "Impressioni di settembre" - remembering hearing that song on the radio in the summer of 1972, when I was all f 11 years old and vacationing in the Alps with my family. However, I also have many wonderful memories of much more recent shows when "new" bands or artists were performing - such as the incredible show put up by Gösta Berlings Saga at NEARfest 2012. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 07:38
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It's perfectly true that old prog brings back wonderful memories by association. Camel, Horslips, Floyd, Genesis, Yes, Tull, BJH, Caravan and, later, Rush, Druid and Marillion all bring back fond memories of wonderful times at my various universities in the 70s/80s. But does that mean it's better than modern prog? No - there's still some marvellous music being made today which compares well to the old prog, though possibly not quite as much. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Suedevanshoe
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 07:42
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There is nothing wrong with a stroll down memory lane. Nostalgia is not the bane of existence unless you let it be the bane of existence. I wasn't born until Dark Side of the Moon had been on the charts for a year, yet I prefer old prog because I think it's plain better than most recent releases. Granted, I've found good listening on many recent French and Italian albums, but nobody's pushing the envelope for me as they did 30+ years ago. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 07:56
You are stirring the pot with an empty argument Dave, you disappoint me here. Or is perhaps that you are still burning the pot as well?  A related but more decent argument could be that genuinely felt-&-created music is an artistic expression of its times and its social and cultural environment (as Mosh will surely quickly remind us ).You might say that classic Prog was somehow a reflection of the cultural environment of its time, and that since that environment is completely different today, trying to make Prog Rock in the classic sense in the current times is doomed to be a watered down form of the original. Mind you, I do not completely agree with this form of the argument either, but it would be more reasonable than just invoking personal memories in trying to asses the quality of music.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 07:57
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I should point out that I have no problem with memory association itself, but when you start making it the central reason to why you prefer one album over another then it kind of marginalises the music of both to being superficial to the experience, that is not healthy at all. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 08:05
hell yeah. Look no further than Jethro Tull beating PFM.  A group that objectively could be said only did one thing better than PFM... be English and have a nostalgic group of fans via a wider exposure. hah.. Nostalgia is great, but never let it get in the way of using your brain when entering the voting booth. A big problem in politics by the way. It isn't the 1950's anymore man... times change... get with the program. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 08:05
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OP, That's a weak argument, I basically never revisit the music I listened to when I was a child. That's why music exploration is so awesome: you grow up and you move on to new music, and you no longer find the old stuff enjoyable to listen to. ------------- 
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Posted By: RockHound
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 08:12
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Every time I turn around, new prog becomes old. Once I was buying vinyl and heading with my pals to the stadium to see Pink Floyd, to the arena to see Yes or Tull, and to the small hall to see the likes of Tangerine Dream and King Crimson. Twenty years later I was buying CDs and surfing the web, discovering a whole new world of prog through the likes of The Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, and Anglagard. The old bands were still touring around, but there was no longer the huge social scene around the music (or perhaps any music) like there was during the '70s. And another 20 years later here we are conversing on the internet with a rich history of symphonic, RIO, prog metal, and post-rock, etc. behind us, and no end to the exploration and innovation in sight. And the context has changed yet again. People live extremely connected lives in which technology and media are constantly in our faces, all competing for our attention. Never has more choice been available, and yet we live in a time where talented musicians struggle to find an audience, let alone make ends meet. The heroes of the '60s and '70s are at or near the ends of their careers, and new talent forges ahead into an uncertain brave new world. How music affects us is colored strongly by our personal experiences, as well as the times in which the music is made. The context of progressive music is constantly shifting and will continue to do so. Because of this, it is not really fair to burden up and coming musicians with expectations that were established two generations ago. The great thing about the foundational prog bands is the rich legacy they have left for future generations, and the great thing about prog today is that it looks both backwards and forwards, giving more options than ever to the listener. Is the old better than the new? That's merely opinion. I for one am just thankful that as time marches on, and despite the many challenges in the modern music industry, progressive music does somehow manage to progress.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 08:17
You give us serious concerns about your ability to navigate successfully to a door, kitchen or even any metaphorical 'pot' that might require stirring therein but regardless, your talent for talking complete gibberish has clearly not deserted you in the interim. The solution to your dilemma is equally simple: get completely chipped off your tits while listening to any music released say post '79, wait thirty years or so then start another thread about getting nostalgic for something that never happened in the first place. By that stage (circa 2045) cultural revisionists will have supplanted the current conventional wisdom to conclude that both Ian Curtis and Tony Wilson were actually slain by the Macclesfield Illuminati (And So it Goes) There is no such thing as 'new Prog' but there are sh*tloads of contemporary (and historical dammit) artists creating adventurous, challenging, innovative and forward thinking music for everyone to enjoy irrespective of the entrance examinations for PA. The fact that we are still banging these new round pegs into our very old square holes or excluding artists entirely based on a largely static set of historical criteria is a different matter altogether. Our failure on PA to wake up to the reality that we must choose to remain an archive for the historical phenomenon of 'Prog' or become a progressive music appreciation site is at the heart of the crossroads we currently face. The ramifications for the latter eventuality would be massive and certainly dwarf the resources that any volunteer website has at its disposal. e.g. the inevitable flood of eligible artists would drown the capacities of the now redundant genre teams. I've always believed that this, with some justification, is probably the main reason that we continue fudge the issue. (Cue another Micky rant...) Warning: This post contains traces of sarcasm ------------- 
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Posted By: Greg W
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 08:19
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Can't argue with memories. As long as you are listening to prog tunes then rock on buddy. Then again, if you ever get bored with the same old stuff, there is a huge amount of new prog that will blow you away. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 11:05
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Hi, This is so weird! You don't go around saying that Stravinsky is OLD. You don't go around saying that Mozart is OLD. You don't go around saying that Gregorian Chants are OLD. Why the fudge would you say that some progressive/prog stuff is now "old", when it was merely a reflection of its time and the instruments they had, THEN! It was music ... when it was music, with that they had to do music with! It's like we're comparing oranges to apples again! My next question is ... are you sure you are listening to music?------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 11:13
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Well, here we go. Putting memories aside, I'll state very simply, perhaps until I die, that prog reached it's creative plateau in 1974-75. For a brief example I'll use the following albums as examples: Wish You Were Here from Floyd, and Scheherazade and other Stories from Renaissance If you look at other rock genres, they too have had their periods of creative peaks and declines. Why should prog be any different?
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 11:56
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I have incredible memories associated with all the classics as well. Listening to dark side for the first time, a good friend introducing me to Genesis and air drumming Phil's parts, etc. One thing I also remember is the thrill of being wowed by something new and different. You can't get that again by returning to the well. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:06
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It isn't. But it's like saying that Tchaikovsky stopped after his 3rd symphony and Beethoven after his 5th and Mahler after his 7th, and the like. Sure, the Romantic Period died after the 1820's or whatever, and other periods came and went, but even those subdivisions are a bit off kilter, specially in the 20th century when just about all kinds of music did not die, and continued, even in different forms, most of them became electric! But we don't go around saying that one thing was older than the other! I really think that the issue on this is that we do not look at a person as an artist. Instead we compare Beethoven's 1st to the 9th, and we say that one was better. In many ways, that is a sad reflection on the composition and its artist. It was the same person ( nowadays "entity"), and I am not sure we are seeing this. We're still working on "favorites" and not exactly/quite the history of it all seen from a different level. That's not to say you are not correct ... but I think history is going to make us all look bad on this! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:12
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^Everyone has their peak and decline Mosh. Even Einstein's greatest thinking came in his twenties and was never repeated again in his life. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: infernalfrog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:21
| I think it's maybe because the new bands try to sound like the classic bands, not better than them. |
Posted By: King Only
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:28
| For me, one of the things I love about rock music in the sixties, seventies and early eighties is the engineering and production. There was no pro-tools, no quantization, no MIDI, no micro-editing of everything. Often no click track so the rhythm sometimes speeds up or slows down slightly. As a result the performances seem to have a bit more 'life' in them compared to many modern releases. Of course, it's still possible for people to make records this old fashioned way but 99% of people prefer to 'overuse' modern technology. One of my acquaintances owns a professional recording studio. When I've visited him during recording sessions the amount of computer editing that is done is ridiculous, literally every drum hit is edited, the final vocal is a combination of ten different takes then spliced together, same with the guitars and bass and keyboards. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:36
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^I agree, the overuse of tech tools does render many modern recordings sterile sounding. However, an artist like Mark Knopfler goes to great lengths to insure a warm analog sound his modern recordings, so it depends on the artist and his awareness and regard for his recorded sound. I would have to say that digital recording on a whole has progressed in this area but unfortunately not quite enough.
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Posted By: King Only
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:41
I am a big Dire Straits fan too. Almost all the albums have a nice natural sound to them. Unfortunately I think that Brothers In Arms sounds a bit flat and brittle compared to the other albums (although I love some of the songs, especially So Far Away). But by On Every Street the nice natural sound was back.
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:43
| It is a hard question for me to answer why I like old prog more than new in a few words or sentences-I guess because my favourite band split in 1980, my favourite musician died in 1977. There are other reasons, but I can't seem to put it into words, sorry. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:46
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@KinkOnly. Yes, but for a better idea you will have to listen to post Dire Straits solo albums like Shangri La and Get Lucky, where Knopfler really goes all out to warm up the sound.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 13:38
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he said "for me" this isn't even an argument, it's an explanation why he identifies with the older prog. not us. I get the explanation - i feel the same - and it has nothing o do with 'the cultural times' in a broad sense... it has to do with where you were at personally, your state of development, vulnerability, when an impression made a deeper mark on you than before or since. i drove down a snowy country road for an hour today and played Strawbs Hero And Heroine and found myself back in my basement as a kid .. earphones on to escape the reality of my world at the time .. I could smell the album cover .. even the plastic that lined the sleeve inside the way A&M used to do. you can argue all the technical music theory you like - but TO ME - that is one of the most perfect albums i've ever heard, along with old Genesis, 10CC, Pink Floyd, etc. Nothing since has affected me that way since because i'm not that same person ... but those albums are locked in and as much as I enjoy the opinions of the obviously much better informed folk on this site, no one is going to be able to prove to me that i don't like what i like. Nostalgia isn't something to be so flippant about - it's powerful and moving - you need to look a little more carefully to understand why instead of just blowing it off. again - just my personal opinion. ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 13:52
Because it is old. It is as the good wine.
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 14:29
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I ended up rambling on this far longer than anticipated, so read at your own risk.   The OP is not positing an argument that we can agree or disagree with - he is merely stating why he has a certain preference. Being an older chap myself, I can reminisce about many of my classic favorite artists and bands. Association is a real thing which accumulates over time. And when we are younger, teens through the twenties, we tend to make strong associations. These diminish with time and increased experience. That first piece of music that grabbed you, that really MOVED you in one way or another, will always have an extra charge and nothing can ever change that. Sigh, the first isn't always the best but will always stick with you. Whether we agree with the OP is a matter of complete subjectivity. Such things are not objective. He is not analyzing the musical worth of "old prog." Time is a real thing and popular forms of music such as rock age very quickly, so I think the term "old' is pertinent. This only means that something recorded in 1972 is older than something recorded in 2012. Many people in the mainstream consider this music to be outdated. I disagree. It remains pertinent to those who appreciate it. The best music expresses its own times while transcending them. This is why people can respond to something like Tarkus or Foxtrot in a positive manner right now, as people do. Not everyone of course. I will argue that Prog is better than what was at the top of the charts in early 70s. There were some good tunes but there was a lot of dreck as well. Most of us have tried to forget certain songs, except for the fact they emerge every now and then and feel polluted by their presence. I was given a box set several years ago called Have a Nice Day which was filled with such tunes. Check it out if you are so inclined but be warned, there is a reason most of these songs have not seen the light of day in decades. Beethoven is old. He died almost 200 years ago. This does not mean he is no longer pertinent because he most certainly is not. His music is of that transcendent quality. I have a no-guilt policy about what I listen to and enjoy. It all depends on the mood I am in. I am not all prog all the time and am very eclectic in my tastes. So far today I have listened to a symphony, Bob Seger and some Bill Frissel. You may not like any of those and may even argue why they are terrible. I have a good friend who saw Bob Seger at the height of his popularity in the 70s and he hated the concert. He sneers every time I mention the name. The same with the Doobie Brothers. But mention Jimi Hendrix to him and he is off in a plane of ecstasy that is usually reserved for spiritual realization and heavy duty pharmaceuticals. I enjoy all of these artists, and can also argue than some of them are musically more sophisticated than others. But to the ear, for the sake of listening enjoyment, that does not matter. Appreciation and enjoyment are two different things. There are many artists I appreciate, such as Frank Zappa, but I rarely enjoy their work. To use a phrase I haven't stated in quite a while: it is your own ears that are doing the listening and no matter how much one may argue, it is what they enjoy and/or appreciate that counts. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 15:20
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As I look at this thread , which is, in reality, a variation on a many travelled theme on PA, I have Mostly Autumn's 2014 masterpiece Dressed In Voices blasting out of my lovely speakers. The sheer genius and emotion dripping out of this album gives this 50 year old Prog fan as much of a frission of excitement and joy as did Yes, Genesis, and all the other usual suspects did back in the 1970's. Prog in 2015 is in very rude health. I really feel that the brilliant new music being created keeps me young, and long may it continue. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 16:14
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There is no need to create factions based
on some new/old divide. To look down on others, however subtly, based
on what they enjoy listening to, as if they have some responsibility to
listen to what *we* like. Every year and era has great music and I love it all. There's room for every taste profile at PA. Listen and enjoy it all, guilt free for what pleases you! |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 17:02
Why on Earth not? ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 17:34
Yes indeedy, thank you Jim This is not a competition folks. There are no gold medals. We like what we like - some are into Peruvian avant and dolphin rhythms while others dig the lotion and margarine stuff. There is room for us all (except for Mariah Carey fans. I simply will not tolerate the kind on PA  ). ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 17:51
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^ pffff.. oh brother left up to you two you'll have us in skirts. emasculated, clean, sober and EVEN being polite and respectful to others tastes. urggg.. what kind of fun forum would this place be. Just image a website where everyone loved Genesis and they won.. well.. they do anyway.. every poll but imagine how boring it would be if everyone loved the same thing and didn't make a point of trying to tell people that they have sh*t for tastes. It the internet was like that... hmmm.. ahhh.. imagine what would the wild west have been if instead of shooting each other down .. they talked things over and gave each other a kiss on the cheek afterwards. BORING!!! Imagine the internet like thathah ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 20:58
Yes, I do think this is one of the main problems, especially for older generation fans who are used to the way music used to be recorded earlier. There is no clear cut line in the sand as far as how much the engineer may use technology to clean up the recording, but if the final output doesn't feel 'live' and it's rock music, then there's a problem. That kind of precise, robotic recording is ok for electronic music but in rock, it just makes the music sound very sterile.
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Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 21:19
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Thanks for sharing Dave. Can't say I feel the same way, but I'm a bit too young for nostalgia to affect my music preferences much. As laz also shared, I hope I can feel the same way about music when I'm 50. Enjoying new releases as they keep coming out is presumably much more exhilarating than going back to the music I listened to when I was 20. Not that nostalgia will never come knocking at my door, but I just hope I'll have the same mindset that there are fantastic musicians around. ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 21:32
Believe me Micky. You want me clean and sober. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 23:38
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- In the 80's i thought Prog was dead.......Then I discovered Anglagard - When I entered this forum I thought Neo Prog was crap - I discovered Marillion, Pendragon, etc. - When I became a Special Collaborator, I used to believe Prog Mertal was BS...I discovered Symphony X, Pain of Salvation, etc. - When I took charge of Symphonic I thought no good Symphonic band would appear in the 00's I discovered - Magenta (The first album is fully Symphonic) - Shadow Circus - 5Bridges - Karfagen - Life Line Project - Deluge Grander - Anton Roolaart - Fright Pig - Via Obscura - Kotebel - etc - etc - etc And found I was wrong believing Prog died in the 70's. Of course Genesis is and always will be my favorite band, but my top 20 include several bands from the 90's and no longer has many from the 70's. Iván
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 23:47
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Meet the new prog...same as the old prog! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 00:30
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The symph prog of the 70s sounds how it should, like bands expressing themselves. The same for any other sub that had it's start in the 70s. Heavy prog sounds at home in the 80s. Prog Metal and Post/Math in the 90s (Post/Math extending into 00s). Exp/Post in 00s to now (I've found most of the prog releases I like this decade are in this tag). I think a lot of newer prog, even the avant stuff, feels a little out of place to me for some reason. I wasn't around in the 70s, but most of the older stuff just feels more like artists expressing in their context. That's not to say 70s was the best decade. From the 70s to the 00s, I can think of loads of bands I love. But for some reason, the 10s have made that hard for me. Rock in general needs something to pick up the pace and I don't think prog is excluded. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 00:35
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Past times have a virtue: they can confer the feeling we live several lives (and they become the more "mysterious" if we weren't even part of those times). On the other hand current music can be full of hints to the past, references, and winks. Doesn't it feel great when the young ones time-link to the oldies, or dead ones, knowing that, in their own maybe even far future, other youger people will "connect" to them ?
------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 02:14
This is interesting as personally I don't have this association with prog as I've always listened to it on my own and I never saw any prog bands play live until the 90's and then it was old bands (like ELP) playing classic prog. So I'm wondering now whether this allows me to be more open minded about new prog. I love new prog whether it be new old prog or new new prog. I don't listen to old stuff as much as I probably should because I've listened to it so much. Ok I will never get bored with Tarkus or Suppers Ready but it does not conjure up any special nostalgia for me.
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 04:45
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And I'm back, and Lordy, have some people here missed the point or what ????? Regarding the original post - it says, let me put this in bold - for me. Ie. this is a personal opinion based on past experiences. What then happens is that a few people misread the thread or draw incorrect conclusions and the whole thing turns into Chinese Whispers. "He's said old prog is better than new prog". Oh no he's not. What I've said is that when I put on older music, I have mental associations to when I heard it. I don't get that (obviously) with new prog....... other people will as they're experiencing the music for the first time. Misreaders of this thread have said "He's talking gibberish / Macclesfield illuminati / was talking about new prog on a different thread........ " I was categorically NOT saying that old prog is better than new prog, fact fans. I listen to lots of new stuff, and like some of it. I listen to lots of old stuff - I like some of it as well. The 60's / 70's were not a universal golden age. But it's an age I grew up in. The bigger picture to what I posted is that people talk about music here as if there is some kind of battle between "old" and "new" prog, or that to like one exclusively is the only way to go. Rubbish. There is good music and bad music. That's it. It doesn't matter about the vintage of the music. Also. An appreciation of music is NOT based on some kind of autistic train spottery "Band A is better than Band B for technical reasons" - there are 1001 different reasons why we like or dislike music, and memories and association are one of them. Nor am I saying that factions should exist between old and new prog- I am saying that there is a reason - for me at least - why I enjoy some of the older stuff more. Fair enough ? I put down "stirring the pot" as an almost aside, as it seems almost verboten by some posters here to do "comparative" posts. But this isn't a comparative, it's an observation about the effects of memory and association on music. If you'll excuse me, I'll go back to listening to both old prog and new prog, whilst having some happy memories. :-)
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 04:56
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(Hopefully now someone will actually reply saying "Ah yes, see what you mean, saw Floyd at Earls Court but haven't seen The Cardiacs live as I'm now 103 and can only get around in a bathchair with an oxygen cylinder and a nurse with enormous..... prospects." Probably not, though. ;-) ) PS Special thanks to Exitthelemming for the new signature, which now reads "Macclesfield Illuminati" and for Mosh for some very... interesting comparisons... :-)
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 05:15
I like to think that most of us understand perfectly that you are not saying one type of music is better than another due to its age, (that would clearly be untenable but your thread title was of little help in this regard) but it just struck me that your OP was probably tongue in cheek (just like half of my response) and probably better off in the Just For Fun section. Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humour.  -------------
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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 05:17
Not that obvious, because one can think of music that reminds us of great moments in the last months, or weeks, or earlier in the new prog era, rather than back 30 years before that era... ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 05:22
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:) Hi Exitthelemming, yes, it was. I had some great times in the - well, 70's and 80's - I can even faintly remember some of them, and music was a HUGE part of me growing up, then. So I have very many happy associative memories about concerts, being around with my mates, many of whom have died or moved on, now. All the old venues are gone, my old biker pub is now a *nail salon* - Jesus !!! - it's just normal, but I can stick a track on and be transported back in time to my youth, which was great. You'll hear old folks going on about tea dances or how they all used to go down the Locarno to do the Twist. Music is much more than..... just music. I do enjoy listening to new stuff, but those associative memories aren't there. It partially explains, I think, why a number of people will get stuck on one musical era. There isn't anything wrong with that, it's just human nature. Otherwise you'd get 90 year olds listening to hip hop. ;-) PS Just noticed Jayem's post above - we cross posted. Nice one, Jayem, glad to see it. :-)
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 05:37
Some do, but there's bands that do not. TMV, Kayo Dot, Maudlin of the well et al don't sound like anything I'd heard before. You could argue that they're not actual prog bands, but that comes down to what you personally consider to be prog rock. I consider them all to be prog due to the simple fact that they are progressive and they are rock bands. Simples. I do actually prefer 'old prog' I prefer the production and the songwriting, but modern prog bands have plenty to offer and we should be thankful to them for carrying on the tradition of progression in rock music.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 06:33
I agree that The Mars Volta and Kayo Dot (I've never heard Maudlin of the Well) are certainly truly original and cannot be accused of retreading the same ground as the 1st Gen Proggers from the early 70's so yes, they are by your own estimation, rock bands that are demonstrably progressive. However, although your criteria is refreshingly simple, would it encompass the likes of Television, the Smiths, Magazine, Echo & the Bunnymen, XTC etc? (and that's just from so called Post Punk, I could list similar from other rock genres) as the prevailing wisdom would consider such as also being rock bands that are progressive. I don't think it's quite as subjective or straightforward as stating it comes down to what you personally consider to be Prog Rock as the genre teams are tasked with finding a 'best fit' for the submissions they receive and do this as objectively as humanly possible using the definitions they have at their disposal. Can you clarify if you consider any demarcation between Prog Rock and rock bands that are progressive is even any longer useful for the purposes of PA? -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 10:16
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Hi, That's really strange ... I do not go "back in time" at all. In so many ways, my time with SPR included, i'm having the best time now, and even then, it was a lot of work, and not as much "fun" as otherwise one would expect. There were a lot of good things, but when you take 3 of those years and you are doing UCSB and getting a degree, you don't have time to spend on as much music as I had before, and all that, and it dropped things out some. All in all, let's see ... and lyrics do not always second the music ... don't forget that! KC's -- the images I see are an "old movie" showing a time and place and how bad it really was. But it also had very good things ... like music! There is nothing else to go after ... there is no girl to wish you had spent time with and all that. They lost a lot of that later, but still had excellent music to cover. JT's -- TAAB and PP -- TAAB has never given me visuals or images, and I will have to listen to it again to see if I can determine why. PP, is by far, one of the things that I love listening to the most, and even though some of the lyrics are down right vicious, the album makes sense to me. I've talked about it many times, and the ballerina is the cue! YES' -- TFTO -- Still one of my top albums in rock music ever. From beginning to the end, if you have ever done a heavy duty meditation, you know where this fits and why you can enjoy it. The rest is all words. CTTE was one that I listened to many times along with AHM and TAAB and it was a very nice listen for me, but it does not illuminate me inside like TFTO eventually did. Quatermass -- The odd album that we found, that I got because that cover was absolutely great (and Jefferson Airplane copied it later!) turned out to be a massive trip and fun to listen to ... and Guy Guden made it even better by joking over it, and then adding some comedy behind it ... I knew nothing about an English show! But it's visuals -- for me -- are not at all related to the music and its lyrics, but the "burning" organ/synth (my words) in the massively famous cut is still tops in my book. PF -- ATM and Ummagumma -- Probably the first 2 albums that really helped me learn to trip. Before that it was always about the silly notion that you had to watch the colors change and what not, and for me, it was never that, but it was not a discussion about studying a chair or listening to Mozart either (Huxley). It was a sort of sci-fi world of sorts, and some music that could/should have been used in more sci-fi films! Lastly ... no music out there gives me more visual content (that doesn't mean memories, btw!!!) than Popol Vuh's first 6 or 7 albums, and Ash Ra Tempel's first 6 albums, and then ... the Cosmic Couriers ... the unending quality and quantity of visuals, and I don't mean that Join Inn sounds like a sexy experience (with or without Kati!), is amazing and still, after all these years one of the best. FZ -- 200 Motels. As time goes by, and people fail to enjoy this, it becomes more and more an insane image of nowhere land and ohh lala land. As such, it is amazing that anyone put this together, and make Alice in Bullpucky land look and sound like just an idiot commercial spoof, and not a literary piece of work. Each and every time I catch glimpses of it, your head turns in different directions, because you have no point of reference as to where this is going, or where it's coming from, and THAT is its strength ... it's for you to work your experience. I don't think there is a greater gift by any artists out there ... than that! Other than Djam Karet, there are not many bands nowadays that give me visuals at all ... and to me that was the main definition of the progressive music. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 10:18
I H8 TLAs.    ------------- |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 12:24
I do consider some demarcation, yes, but the lines are fine and subtle I guess. I consider the likes of The Smiths, Magazine et al as progressive pop in a sense, because they didn't present as rock bands. Indeed, many of those bands made a point of saying how much they disliked rock music generally and what they beieved it stood for. That was the ethos of punk, out of whch those bands emereged. The likes of TMV etc are actual ROCK bands with a progressive element and a sometimes conceptual approach to song writing. I have often said that I consider the likes of The Future Sound of London and The Orb as progressive but their exclusion from the archives I imagine is based on the fact that they emerged from the dance music/rave scene and not rock. Same prnciple applies to those 'alternative pop bands' you listed. Progressive rock in iteslf is such a broad church anyway. What exactly relates Caravan and King Crimson for example? Both are regarded as prog rock, but also reside in different subgenres because essentially nothing relates them. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 12:39
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Posted By: Free like an Hydra
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 14:41
| I think that better or worst are concepts and therefore cannot be sensed. The variables involving in such a claim (A is better than B) are so many that its empirical imposible in practice to reach a better or a worst being objective. |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 23:16
ABSOLUTELY So few people today in any genre understand this. This is not just prog, but nearly all music being released today. The music is in the grooves, not the digits. |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 23:34
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To me, the newer stuff fails in the engineering and production department. Why do a I say this? Because a recording should be a recording... meaning to record a band or artist at a particular point on their time line. The recording should represent the band or artist more accurately than the virtuosity of the guy editing in pro tools. The other part is that the modern bands fail because they come across and being influenced by prog of the past and it feels either copy catish or desperate to sound progressive or modern. If you look at Steve Howe or Steve Hackett, they were not listening to prog guys, they were listening to guys like Wes Montgomery, Merle Travis, Les Paul and various classical music. Bill Bruford and Phil Collins were listening to Buddy Rich, Elvin Jones, Max Roach, Joe Morello etc. The prog keyboardists were mostly studying classical music, not learning the into to Lamb Lies Down. This is the problem as I see it. The bar was raised much higher then. If people think Steve Howe is a great classically minded folk guitarist, have a listen to Merle Travis. You'll hear stuff that leaves The Clap light years behind on every front. |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 23:39
Message to anyone who nods at the quotes above: stop trusting those who dismiss MIDI and late ways. There're just missing tons of never ending JOY !! I also listen to old fashion music, etc, what's commented about tempo changes makes sense, though one can imitate real-life tempo slight ups and downs on a computer. But to me MIDI and VST studio are the shortest way to HEAVEN, and to answer the statement that it lacks life (and groove), I often dance like crazy (making sure nobody's around to see me) to recordings made the modern way with MIDI, etc. If you don't believe me I'll film myself dancing (but refraining myself, so I won't be called mental).
------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: freyacat
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 10:08
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That was a regrettable argument. It boils down to saying "I felt better when I was young." But there is a reason why many young people keep coming back to Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and if they are really lucky, Yes, King Crimson, and Genesis. (I saw lots of people in their 20's at the last Yes show I was at.) The rock bands of the 60's and 70's had to invent it all. They learned how to play from listening to classical, jazz, blues, and folk recordings. Some of them at music school. They had no rock musicians of the past to emulate. Because it's 40-some years later now, it will never be possible to recapture the thrill of discovery in the rock medium. As a musical language, it is now mature. Today's artists grew up listening to the rock of the 60's, 70's and 80's, so now rock becomes a closed circle rather than a blank canvas. Also, the music of the 60's and 70's had that hippie gentleness to it, but now, there is pressure to make your music aggressive. I might also say that production ironically makes the older music more appealing as well. Today's insistence on robotic perfection and crystal-clear clarity in the studio makes the music seem antiseptic and soulless. Listen to "Yessongs," and you enter a delightfully confusing garden of sounds, where the sound of the mellotron blends with the voice, the bass and drums blend together, and you don't know where the guitar ends and the moog begins. It is a gorgeous mystery.
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Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 10:14
quite the opposite I went through hell when I was young - music was where I went to turn of the real world crap and escape. ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 10:29
 Just to chill the waters a bit and appease the old timers( ) with a little thing that sounds like the good old days.....but it's not. It's from 2014 and contains the finest psych guitar solo of the year hands down. No midi files, autotuning or too much mucking about. Live in the studio just jamming.------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 11:24
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I understand what the OP is referring to and that's partially because I am also over 60 years old. There is a great deal of association and memories that the older prog evokes in me but that doesn't necessarily make it 'better' than the newer prog music. There are some newer bands that evoke similar feelings when I hear the music. I do play the prog giants or classic prog artists more but I'm not sure it's simply about association from the past. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 11:44
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In the end the test of time will speak. For the moment, i see that people still make polls and Top 10 threads about the classics. If I look at some of the Top 3 albums of recent years, they were a hype when they came out but people rarely speak about them anymore here. I seem to feel a sense of volatility in the current top prog, but don't shoot me for that, again, time will tell and I may well be wrong, and some modern acts have indeed earned their place in the timeless (well, at least long term) 'Proglovers' hall of fame'. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 12:46
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A majority of music fans and musicians have a more "step up and get it done quickly" kind of attitude and we all are aware that this develops strongly when exposed to the lifestyle of modern technology. Technology has caused our music to sound much finer and I appreciate that above and beyond, but the times we were living in during the 60's and 70's would draw musicians to different sources. Many great "ROCK" songs that contained the most beautiful 3 verses, bridge, instrumental break, chorus..were composed in strange but beautiful environmental surroundings. Today..we still have the artist who desires to compose a piece with those surroundings, runs back to the studio and records it...however there is something missing and very wrong with it and I am unsure what precisely it is. It feels as if the process has become infected with some sort of fungus that is dangerous to music composition. When musicians of the 60's and 70's took small tape recorders outdoors to record the sounds of nature...they were later filtered through a mix of the studio recording. The hiss of the non-direct ocean recording was taken away so the Progressive Rock or Electronic album sounded realistic with nature's sounds blending in with the music. Even though this may remain to be a dated experimentation method, there was something educational about the experience itself that DOESN'T seem to exist as much in music today. Musicians are not as in touch with their feelings to compose by limiting their interest to do other things that now seem laughable to them because they have technology....but all along this journey I've noticed something missing in music...in general..and this aspect is a great part of it. In Jurassic Park...a computer geek is telling Dr. Grant that in a few years we won't even have to dig anymore and Dr. Grant says: "Where's the fun in that?" As being the most pathetic example I can give, it is that way in reality. Music has taken on a entire different generation of people in recent years that focus on product created through the abilities and accomplishments of technology and that alone...has caused a majority of musicians to be dismissive of what they define as "old methods", dried up methods, old school methods. If you want to dismiss something LIKE a method based on it's immediate lack in face value because technology is better for your life, you are turning your back on creativity and having disrespect for the possibilities of creating true art and NEW art. Art that perhaps should have been created in 1989, but wasn't because society was beginning the push button concept and that ruled over everyone's choice on how to form art structure in music. No method is dated. It must be investigated and experienced first..in order to make a harsh decision of completely dismissing it or going with the flow of most people being dismissive of it. That's not the noble process of education at any length. For example: In Japan there is more of a breakdown method for mathematics and in the American "middle school" students are introduced to various methods before they understand a basic form of math such as division or multiplication. Many of these breakdown methods were defined as "short cuts" that many of us used in class , (in my case), during the 60's and 70's. At the time they were forbidden as such that you might get an F on your test if the teacher caught you using them. It has been suggested by the American government and enforced by our president to induct these methods into the teachings of math in the American school system. By dismissing older methods of problem solving...a part of your brain is no longer working. You can find answers to math problems , but you are no longer having the same educational process which...breaks you away from something vital to a specific aspect to math. First you're doing it one way...and now you are doing it another. It's basic and simple to understand, but it has it's limitations in educating a child's overall understanding of a subject. This has occurred greatly with music in the last 10 years and that being the reason why older Prog is better for me...with the exceptions of certain new underground Prog bands...that is the way I feel. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 12:51
| ^I'm not sure what you mean by this Todd. Is technology deluding composition and, as a result, modern music? |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:03
Yes, because it brings limitations to the possibilities of creating music that is unique. Not in all cases, but in most. I've been in and out of recording studios over the last 20 years and it's pretty evident that people take music less seriously when a computer is in front of them. They also tend to take much for granted...which is why if Jimi Hendrix and Mike Oldfield were teenagers in 2015 and had the same mindset for creativity..as they did when they wrote their best albums, they would not be able to tolerate what studio techs and their computer related dribble have on the agenda for their recordings. All that sort of sincere creativity and the innocence of it is vanishing quickly over time because of the modern age.
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Posted By: Roxbrough
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:04
Some of the older tunes are truly excellent. One thing that has improved with time though is the musicianship of the youngsters. They seem able to play faster, with more accuracy and greater flare over the last few years. ------------- Live Long and Prosper |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:05
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the means justifies the end ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:07
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Posted By: Roxbrough
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:11
Until you go further afield. Look at the Prog explosion in Poland. ------------- Live Long and Prosper |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:11
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:14
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:14
| When you are in the studio and an idea enters your mind, but your fellow musician is using the cell phone, how will you express the idea during the actual event of the idea? Wait until they get off the cell phone? That's actually a moment in time that has just been missed and it's not practical for a good musician to wait for his band member to get off the phone. That's not how art works. A sound tech who misunderstands your demands of a mix or your desire for a final take..because they are texting, is not a sincere working process for art. People walking around the studio chatting on cell phones when they should be focusing on what's being created in that studio. When Wakeman, Anderson, Bruford, Squire, and Howe wrote the group effort pieces for Fragile..nothing was said, (according to Wakeman), it just all happened naturally and this modern age didn't exist and therefore ...no distractions to take away from a private rehearsal where true art is being formed. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:18
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^And realistically, that could happen again if you had a group of improvisational musicains that left their cell phones in their cars. It only takes a certain amount of discipline.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 15:12
| But I don't think it's about Prog only. Frankly, I find the Pop songs from the late 60's and 70's better songs than current Pop songs, in general. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 15 2015 at 15:15
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^I agree 150 percent as a friend of mine used to say. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 00:47
It cannot be compared, can it, because back in 60 - 70's (and until the end of 80's) what was called "pop" included many kind of songs, from "social gathering" where music didn't really matter (the main purpose being to dynamise a social event and dictate a social trend) to personal songs made for a careful listen. Now what's called pop has become a very precisely defined genre of "social gathering" kind. ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Roxbrough
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 03:13
As there are only seven notes, the best melodies would have been discovered firstly. Looking at your reasoning Beethoven and Mozart had the best tunes! ------------- Live Long and Prosper |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 03:18
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There are plenty of bands that record on computers that don't quantize and don't compress it all to hell. Even though I like those bands too. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 03:45
that was your reasoning not mine
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 03:54
There are already some great prog rock albums that are made on computers. For example, I like so much http://onevoiceofficial.bandcamp.com/album/a-sound-space-agreed" rel="nofollow - this album by your neighbor Dan Castello aka Onevoice; a really great album indeed.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 06:43
Mercifully, both Beethoven and Mozart knew there were 11 notes in western diatonic music (and countless more in other cultures and microntonal music) -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 08:07
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I think this is more related to the person's own inner ability, than it does the technician or the DAW. However, there are inherant limitations (time clock being the most overt one) in the software themselves, and I often joke that they screwed it up on purpose to prevent anyone/everyone from getting into the music field. Just like the technology around sound cards ... they easily could have 3 or 4 inputs, so you could mix things directly, and instead all sound cards can only handle one input. It prevents you from doing better and more direct mixing. So they force you to do so outside, and then come to the sound card, and this takes the freshness out of things, as it makes you play things more than once and second guess your choices until you kill them all! We had a band here in Portland that had their engineer see if I could make any suggestions about the music and its recording paces. I can visualize composition, for example, and rock music is not the best example of "music" for a DAW, at all, however, in their case we made a couple of suggestions, which they used well, and made the music more lively, and well defined, but in the end, their "leader" and "guitar player" didn't like it because he wanted things to sound more like Nirvana. That band doesn't exist anymore ... and they were good!
The most visible of these is how many "dj's" are now composing themselves, however, they are completely dependent on the DAW and its abilities and its trickery, which, when it comes down to it, is not really composition, and neither is it a show of flexibility in music at all. But somethings sound fairly good, but we can not tell the difference. In fact, at least one or two of those, I would say are much more progressive than half the stuff that we're listening to here ... so I'm not sure that we can say that old is better than new, or vice versa! But for the most part, the technology of it all, has hidden a lot of talent behind the computers.
Might take 10 to 20 years to get off that!
I totally agree that the day someone says that these DAW's are stupid and are worse than the merde out there, then we might be getting somewhere ... but we are in an age where we're supposed to be sukkiaking and kissing the companies that make money and supposedly are better because they have this and that, and we don't. No one goes around trashing Cakewalk, or Abelton, for their stupidity and bad support and ability to rip off customers, which in the end, hurts people trying to create anything/something! We're in a consumerist society ... I don't think that any of these tools, are capable of helping people learn something about themselves and "music".------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 08:30
In the eighties, you could switch over to Madonna and the like. In the nineties you could switch to Grunge. Now you can switch Miley Cyrus! ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 16 2015 at 13:04
Repent. ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 01:42
Very well said |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 01:49
Very well thought out and seems and feels accurate to my ears as well. |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 01:54
Hippie gentleness, very true. I really felt that growing up back then. The blending of the music sonically was an art unto itself that seems to have been lost. |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 02:19
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I've been listening to a lot of classical music lately so 70's prog doesn't seem so old to me anymore. Is the difference in quality between 70's and now that Big? I would agree that creative peak of prog rock was in the 70s but what about punk band of the "experimental" and "noise" variety in the 80's and 90's. And that's just with in the genre of rock music. Jazz and classical have been constantly progressing. I don't really have an opinion on much music of the 2000's because it's too recent and it will probably be easier to recognize the better musicians a decade from now. I also noticed people blaming technology for a lack of quality in music but that just seems like a scapegoat. And is there an actual lack in quality to begin with? I also think the problems with pop music have more to do with cultural problems than anything. as with all pop music, it is heavily rooted in culture.
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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 06:37
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Those comments above suggest special logos could appear on future albums. "All cell phones shut during rehearsals" "Sonic blending warrant" Among other logos against which existence I'd grumble...
------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 07:38
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I think one problem today is the reality that prog is not going to give you a sustainable career. In the 70's every garage prog band had serious role models of success to keep the dream alive. There were many more prog bands being signed to major labels. Today, it's pretty much a given that your best effort might garnish you are few nice reviews on some respectable prog websites, and you might sell a couple hundred downloads if things go really well. Therefore, it's just plain difficult to really secure the top quality musicians to commit and dedicate to a long term prog ensemble. A proper band all working together should output a higher quality product than the vision of just one person. That is what exploring a prog band should really be about. Putting a real expert at every position. There is just no way that a one man band is going to match the quality and musicianship of true pioneering experts at each throne in the band. Very hard to put together a real prog super group together in the modern era and keep it active. Didn't K2 try to do that a few years back? Lasted one album and no tour. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 07:53
Yeah, similar to Queen's famous 'No Synthesizers!' quote, we might start seeing: 'No cell phone interruptions No DAWs used No quantizing No autotune No audio compression Guaranteed no more than 5 takes used in each track' |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 09:05
At least you're advertizing for K2, a band I didn't know, thanks for that. For the remaining part I wonder what anyone would build on the reading of that comment, that they'd consider of any value. ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 09:15
until Flash Gordon :) ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 09:27
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It's probably true that I have listened to many old prog albums at my age than I will ever listen to new prog albums before I die. I still keep and like listening to the old prog in circulation. But there is so much good new stuff going on that I give it a try when I am in the mood. If you limit yourself to '70's prog, more power to you, it makes things a bit simpler because the era is over. You might get a few things that were created but not released from that era. My most recent is the Lark's Lounges stuff, but to be totally honest, though I can now listen to it, it's no surprise why it wasn't released backe then. It's OK but it's not great, not like the stuff that was picked on for release. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 09:49
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Heaven save us from supergroups! They very rarely work because of the egos involved, and the musical outcome of such partnerships is very often subpar - technically impeccable, but contrived and ultimately soulless. Most modern prog artists have top-notch skills, even if they cannot make a living out of their music because times have changed, and are often forced to turn to studio-only projects because of the challenges posed by touring when one must keep a day job - and also of the lack of support of their intended audience. |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 11:09
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If left long enough, someone replying to this thread may realise that "music" is not just about notes, who's better than who, who's faster, if a band are boringly better musicians than others..... in fact, "music" is not about music at all. ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 16:21
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Sticking to old prog is a cop out. there us plenty of good stuff out there that isn't appreciated, and you are depriving yourself of all the great stuff that came after. There is so much. You will never appreciate it because you have chosen not to check it out,,,, ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 03:23
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Perhaps I should wave the big flag again which says HELLO, I DO LISTEN TO NEW PROG. I'm not saying "new is better than old" or vice versa.... or "band A is better than band B"..... if we go back to the original thread, I'm saying that some music comes with associative memories which makes old prog - for me - more enjoyable to listen to. Slarti, you are aware that I write new prog, are you ? Just because I say "old prog" in one post doesn't mean that I exclusively listen to just old prog ??? - logical fallacy, there. ------------- |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 06:53
| Old prog is better because there was far more ground to break back then and thus there were more inspired artists. That said, there is plenty of good recent prog. Perhaps too much of it lacks the organic feel and even humanity of old prog, but it's still the best music around. |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 10:56
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Mmm, not sure I can agree with that. I'm a "new prog" musician, ie. I started writing music a few years ago. 40 minute single track, anyone ? But what I'm doing references old prog rock. So it's a form of crossover style. By the same token, look at a 60's prog band who adopt a symphonic approach to an album. At the time, this was seen to be radical and new, but it's really just a harkening back to classical music. Thanks to everyone who's assumed I don't listen to new prog rock, BONG, wrong. I actually PLAY new prog rock, fact fans and conclusion jumpers. What I am saying is that a lot of old prog rock (I'll say this yet again) has associative memories for me which new prog rock doesn't have. Music is not just about notes, melody, ability.... newness or oldness... it is also about evocative memory.
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 11:02
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As for the "DAW's remove creative ability" post above, so, uh huh, I use a DAW. Thirty years ago I was using tape. Before that, musicians used carbon microphones and cut music directly to master 78's. The technology has NO effect on the creative process at all. When Robert Johnson was sitting, facing a wall in a hotel recording blues in the 30's, did he stop becoming creative when the technician hit the record switch ? If you'd moved him on to 1969, and he played the same stuff onto an 8 track recorder, would it be somehow creatively different ? If you sat him down in my back bedroom, got out one of my condenser mikes, a valve preamp, connected them to Cubase, said, OK, Mr Johnson, take it away....... and hit the RECORD button..... would he stop becoming creative ? No. And any decent recording technician would have 1000 times more control over the finished recording than was had in 1930-whatever. The thing is, you can't win. If you record using valve technology and there's a background hum, most "audiophiles" either don't notice it and say, wow, that sounds authentic. People who actually can listen with a critical ear say whoa, turn the gain level on the mic down. I can hear a hum. People THINK that the old stuff somehow sounds better or more authentic.... it actually sounds dreadful. I could quote you God knows how many recordings from the late 60's which sound amateurish, badly mixed, balanced...... but people - God knows why - think that they can actually tell a good recording from a bad one with no training and just "instinct". Incorrect. This is why recording technicians get paid a lot of money. The fact is that DAW's do not produce bad recordings. Bad technicians and bad musicians produce bad recordings. The technology, if properly used, is a great help. I don't live exclusively in the past. But I'm very glad I'm not recording in 1967, when 4 track tape recorders were high tech. Or in 1970, when a Moog modular cost more than a house. So much now can be done which would be utterly physically impossible and financially ruinous than even a few years ago. But the point, when I started this post, was that a lot of old prog contains associative memories. I'm not saying that new prog is better than old prog, I'm saying that I prefer a lot of old stuff due to those associative memories. This isn't about should I listen to this or that or this is better than that or how very dare he or I'm in this camp he's in that. ------------- |