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ProgMetaller2112 
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Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
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 Posted: January 14 2013 at 23:11 |
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
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Points: 13635
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Posted: January 16 2013 at 14:02 |
I started a thread about this on the Improve The Site section. I have not looked at all the posts on this Rush thread,, so I hope I am not repeating something said elsewhere, but if we cannot agree what sub genre a seminal and important band such as Rush belong to, it really does make a nonsense of the categorisation we have on this site.
For my own opinion, they have changed over the years. From Led Zep copyists to symphonic to heavy, to crossover, to...well, probably eclectic. Of all of these sub genres, heavy, eclectic, and crossover meant nothing in years gone by. We used to call it prog or art rock, and that was it.
Please contribute to the debate on that thread, because there needs to be more on this.
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ProgMetaller2112
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Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
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Posted: April 12 2013 at 01:35 |
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I don't understand why King Crimson is in Eclectic Prog? I know they went through changes but as Sonia once said it's more like changing music and heading for a completely new direction(compare" Larks' Tongues in Aspic" to "Discipline" that's changing musical directions and it is not Eclectic). I don't really hear a quality to King Crimson's music that would really render them Eclectic. They were NEVER as Eclectic as Gentle Giant.
Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - April 12 2013 at 01:36
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: April 12 2013 at 10:23 |
 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
I don't understand why King Crimson is in Eclectic Prog? I know they went through changes but as Sonia once said it's more like changing music and heading for a completely new direction(compare" Larks' Tongues in Aspic" to "Discipline" that's changing musical directions and it is not Eclectic). I don't really hear a quality to King Crimson's music that would really render them Eclectic. They were NEVER as Eclectic as Gentle Giant.
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That depends on what exactly you mean by eclectic and if you say Rush ought to be called eclectic prog, I am not at all sure what you consider eclectic. As for KC, flipping through the individual tracks of LTIA would make it clear that they are not in the same style at all and even the approach veers from improvised music to more tightly composed stuff. Same for Red....the title track is almost like metal and has a cello playing in parts of it while One More Red Nightmare gets pretty jazzy. Discipline...Indiscipline, Sheltering Sky, Matte Kudasai, Frame by Frame, I don't know how they are all supposed to be the same style of music. It can be made out that they are all by the same band but that holds true for Gentle Giant as well.
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ProgMetaller2112
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Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
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Points: 3145
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Posted: April 12 2013 at 19:35 |
rogerthat wrote:
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
I don't understand why King Crimson is in Eclectic Prog? I know they went through changes but as Sonia once said it's more like changing music and heading for a completely new direction(compare" Larks' Tongues in Aspic" to "Discipline" that's changing musical directions and it is not Eclectic). I don't really hear a quality to King Crimson's music that would really render them Eclectic. They were NEVER as Eclectic as Gentle Giant.
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That depends on what exactly you mean by eclectic and if you say Rush ought to be called eclectic prog, I am not at all sure what you consider eclectic. As for KC, flipping through the individual tracks of LTIA would make it clear that they are not in the same style at all and even the approach veers from improvised music to more tightly composed stuff. and has a cello playing in parts of it while One More Red Nightmare gets pretty jazzy. Discipline...Indiscipline, Sheltering Sky, Matte Kudasai, Frame by Frame, I don't know how they are all supposed to be the same style of music. It can be made out that they are all by the same band but that holds true for Gentle Giant as well.
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Same for Red....the title track is almost like metal. More like hard rock  Gets kind of complicated doesn't it, I agree that Larks' Tongues' individual tracks are varied but as Sonia(Kati) once said she considers eclectic as someone moving from musical direction to another within the same song I don't get the feeling that ever really happens on LTIA and on Discipline or Red. Could you say the same for Gentle Giant? This has nothing to do with Rush  I just don't get why they(King Crimson) would be considered eclectic(since I've been listening to them a lot lately, I don't really understand why they would be considered?) The changes could be said for other prog bands not under eclectic. I guess I'm just trying to make a bold statement
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 12 2013 at 20:18 |
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RUSH I certainly do not consider eclectic, as a 3 member band too infact i would consider ELP even more eclectic compared to rush, as they had a lot of guest musicians on their albums. However, Rush, no, non, nee, niet, nao I don't think they are. :)
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: April 12 2013 at 23:31 |
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
Same for Red....the title track is almost like metal. More like hard rock |
That's just your opinion and I don't agree. I have listened to a lot of metal and I consider the title track of Red as one of the heaviest pre-NWOBHM tracks.
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
Gets kind of complicated doesn't it, I agree that Larks' Tongues' individual tracks are varied but as Sonia(Kati) once said she considers eclectic as someone moving from musical direction to another within the same song I don't get the feeling that ever really happens on LTIA and on Discipline or Red. Could you say the same for Gentle Giant?
This has nothing to do with Rush I just don't get why they(King Crimson) would be considered eclectic(since I've been listening to them a lot lately, I don't really understand why they would be considered?) The changes could be said for other prog bands not under eclectic. I guess I'm just trying to make a bold statement
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That may be your or Sonia's definition of eclectic but it's not the PA definition. Nevertheless, there are many KC tracks that do live up to the notion of absorbing different musical styles within a single track. One More Red Nightmare starts off with a menacing, heavy riff but moves into a languid saxophone solo. Again, Red...starts off with heavy distortion but the cello interlude introduces a classical flavour. On a rough reckoning, I'd say most tracks from the Wetton-KC albums and several others before would have remarkable changes within a single track. I definitely hear a 'simplification' from Discipline onwards, but that is because the music got more rhythmically complex. I know where you're coming from re GG...you are referring to the no. of instruments they use, which makes their tracks eclectic on an individual basis. But over the course of a few albums, I don't hear as many changes in their style as KC (even though they did change their drummer and lost Shulman) so to me, it evens out. According to PA, eclectic prog describes a summation of elements from various musical sources, and the
influences and career paths of bands that take from a wide range of
genres or styles.. KC is one of the easiest fits to this description because of the no. of times they changed their style. Other big bands typically stuck to their quintessential style for whatever may be their reasons but Fripp was not content with that.
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ProgMetaller2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
Status: Offline
Points: 3145
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Posted: April 13 2013 at 01:58 |
rogerthat wrote:
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
Same for Red....the title track is almost like metal. More like hard rock |
That's just your opinion and I don't agree. I have listened to a lot of metal and I consider the title track of Red as one of the heaviest pre-NWOBHM tracks.
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
Gets kind of complicated doesn't it, I agree that Larks' Tongues' individual tracks are varied but as Sonia(Kati) once said she considers eclectic as someone moving from musical direction to another within the same song I don't get the feeling that ever really happens on LTIA and on Discipline or Red. Could you say the same for Gentle Giant?
This has nothing to do with Rush I just don't get why they(King Crimson) would be considered eclectic(since I've been listening to them a lot lately, I don't really understand why they would be considered?) The changes could be said for other prog bands not under eclectic. I guess I'm just trying to make a bold statement
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That may be your or Sonia's definition of eclectic but it's not the PA definition. Nevertheless, there are many KC tracks that do live up to the notion of absorbing different musical styles within a single track. One More Red Nightmare starts off with a menacing, heavy riff but moves into a languid saxophone solo. Again, Red...starts off with heavy distortion but the cello interlude introduces a classical flavour. On a rough reckoning, I'd say most tracks from the Wetton-KC albums and several others before would have remarkable changes within a single track. I definitely hear a 'simplification' from Discipline onwards, but that is because the music got more rhythmically complex.
I know where you're coming from re GG...you are referring to the no. of instruments they use, which makes their tracks eclectic on an individual basis. But over the course of a few albums, I don't hear as many changes in their style as KC (even though they did change their drummer and lost Shulman) so to me, it evens out. According to PA, eclectic prog describes a summation of elements from various musical sources, and the
influences and career paths of bands that take from a wide range of
genres or styles.. KC is one of the easiest fits to this description because of the no. of times they changed their style. Other big bands typically stuck to their quintessential style for whatever may be their reasons but Fripp was not content with that.
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That's just your opinion and I don't agree. I have listened to a lot of
metal and I consider the title track of Red as one of the heaviest
pre-NWOBHM tracks. Of course you do but I don't really hear it.It's just Hard Rock or a precursor to Grunge for me. I would say earlier King Crimson would be considered somewhat eclectic but when Belew stepped in, hardly!. As for GG they hardly switched members except for Phil leaving and a couple drummer changes which in my opinion makes it hard to get away from certain habits and tendencies that a band/band members may have. As for King Crimson just about anyone except for Fripp is expendable(that's all good and all but sometimes it's not a smart thing IMO). It really all depends on how you view music. By the way, I don't really agree with Sonia's definition. I would say albums like The Yes Album or Close To The Edge and Nursery Cryme are quite Eclectic too. Eclectic is a really broad term though.Any Prog Band could be considered Eclectic. I mean Yes went through a New Wave, Pop Era, experimented with World Music too According to PA, eclectic prog describes a summation of elements from various musical sources, and the
influences and career paths of bands that take from a wide range of
genres or styles.
Are you gonna tell me that Rush hasn't taken from a wide range of genres and styles? Heavy Metal, Reggae(Vital Signs) New Wave(New World Man, The Enemy Within, Kid Gloves those songs I would not consider Heavy Metal at all) Pop Rock. There's even a little Hip-Hop/Rap on Roll the Bones and Funk Rock. To me that's a good amount of genres and styles
Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - April 13 2013 at 02:39
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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ProgMetaller2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
Status: Offline
Points: 3145
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Posted: April 13 2013 at 01:59 |
Kati wrote:
RUSH I certainly do not consider eclectic, as a 3 member band too infact i would consider ELP even more eclectic compared to rush, as they had a lot of guest musicians on their albums. However, Rush, no, non, nee, niet, nao I don't think they are. :) |
Why so mad, Sonia . ELP Eclectic  . So reliance on Keith is eclectic 
Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - April 13 2013 at 02:01
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: April 13 2013 at 02:11 |
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
Of course you do but I don't really hear it.It's just Hard Rock or a precursor to Grunge for me. I would say earlier King Crimson would be considered somewhat eclectic but when Belew stepped in, hardly!. As for GG they hardly switched members except for Phil leaving and a couple drummer changes which in my opinion makes it hard to get away from certain habits and tendencies that a band/band members may have. As for King Crimson just about anyone except for Fripp is expendable(that's all good and all but sometimes it's not a smart thing IMO). It really all depends on how you view music. By the way, I don't really agree with Sonia's definition. I would say albums like The Yes Album or Close To The Edge are quite Eclectic too. Eclectic is a really broad term though.Any Prog Band could be considered Eclectic. I mean Yes went through a New Wave, Pop Era, experimented with World Music too |
The PA page on eclectic prog addresses this: While progressive music can be, in a larger sense, eclectic, the
'Eclectic Prog' term is specially meant to reference bands that trespass
the boundaries of established Progressive Rock genres or that blend
many influences. I think KC live up to both criteria. LTIA was well beyond the boundaries of what was typically considered prog up to that point and most all of their music blends many influences. Even the Belew years, it's just that their approach is different from GG. These stylistic shifts can jump a bit in your face in GG but with KC, it's more like their own interpretation of a style and adaptation of it to their own general approach to music. So it tends to be less obvious.
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
Are you gonna tell me that Rush hasn't taken from a wide range of genres and styles? Heavy Metal, Reggae(Vital Signs) New Wave(New World Man, The Enemy Within, Kid Gloves those songs I would not consider Heavy Metal at all) Pop Rock. There's even a little Hip-Hop/Rap on Roll the Bones. To me that's a good amount of genres and styles |
Rush are eclectic in a broad sense but not as eclectic as KC or GG (though you may not agree). You can find heavy metal, 20th century classical music, jazz, symphonic rock, gamelan, funk and other styles in KC's music. However, I'd suggest you take it with a pinch of salt because I find eclectic prog a misleading term for some of the reasons you mentioned. I could convincingly argue Renaissance as an eclectic prog rock band so where then does it end. I don't recall if he did in this thread too, but Dean has explained the reasons why eclectic prog came to be used as a term.
Edited by rogerthat - April 13 2013 at 02:16
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ProgMetaller2112
Forum Senior Member
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Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
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Points: 3145
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Posted: April 13 2013 at 02:14 |
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I agree that Eclectic is a rather broad term and that Rush aren't as Eclectic as GG and early KC. But there is most definitely quite a bit of Eclectic moments in Rush's music. Tell me does Caress of Steel, Hemispheres, Moving Pictures and Grace Under Pressure sound like the same band?
Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - April 13 2013 at 02:17
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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Eria Tarka
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Joined: December 17 2011
Location: BC, Canada
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Points: 5856
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Posted: April 13 2013 at 02:22 |
Kati wrote:
RUSH I certainly do not consider eclectic |
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ProgMetaller2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
Status: Offline
Points: 3145
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Posted: April 13 2013 at 02:24 |
bytor2112 wrote:
Kati wrote:
RUSH I certainly do not consider eclectic |
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She's not online right now and she's been connecting to PA lately.Don't scare her off . Nevermind I confused you with smartpatrol 
Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - April 13 2013 at 02:25
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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Would you consider Rush's music Eclectic Prog??