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micky 
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 Posted: December 11 2014 at 18:49 |
 rushfan4 wrote:
micky wrote:
One they suck  Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band. No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists.
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The funny thing about this quote Micky is that it also applies to one of the classic big 7 bands quite well....and that band is ELP, a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists who fail to be a real band. Isn't that the reason that albums like Works Volume 1 and Volume 2 exist?
I would almost think that just for this reason alone, you of all people would actually be a fan of Dream Theater.  |
Really Scott? How about I just pull out of my ass that ..hmmm.. Cream was a mere collection of merely talented insturmentalists. Pick a band.. try to make it stick. Easy to say I suppose. Like or not that is how a good many people see DT. ELP had many faults but not being a 'band' was not one commonly said of them. Not one that is commonly associated by them. Sure haters can throw anything against the wall. Pieces like Tarkus or albums like BSS.. prog classics would not have happened if they had not been. First off they had a first class song writer in the band... and you didn't have Palmer or Emerson trying to do just to show their goods. They knew their strengths (shear skills and talent) and weaknesses (not exactly good song writers) and worked well as a group because they worked in the framework of a band, until the personalities got in the way but that happens to many groups... I dare say most ...especially when you have achieved mega success. Happened to Yes.. happened to Floyd. Really... are you going to say they were not bands but collections of talents. As far as DT... I suppose you will find many more people that would argue the point I made rather than those who would say the same about ELP. Trust me, I read more than I think. I sure can't take credit for that. That criticism is not of my own mind. It is a well repeated one, it is just one I agree with. I've read many criticisms of ELP but being a mere collection of great talents and not a 'group' sure has not one of them. Then again with ELP, one can throw anything against the wall and most wouldn't give it enough thought to think whether it really should stick or not.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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rogerthat
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Posted: December 11 2014 at 22:07 |
Or, it may be that you feel it doesn't stick because you love ELP and those albums work for you. Let's just take a band of extremely talented musicians with almost zero showboating - Gentle Giant. That's a BAND - members performing their respective roles to put together great songs. Some listeners may not like the very STYLE of Gentle Giant's music but without solos of any great length, a criticism that they were only showing off would hardly stand. I selected Gentle Giant because the common disdainful argument against Genesis and Floyd is their musicians simply weren't talented enough to show off. That can hardly be said of GG, unless in some alternative universe it is possible to play several instruments without much musical talent.
ELP's compositions did appear to me to be vehicles to showcase the technical skills of their members....which is indeed the most common criticism leveled on DT too. It is interesting that the first ELP album, just like the first three DT albums, was a more restrained and disciplined effort. Perhaps, both bands, having gained confidence after cementing their place in the rock scene, decided to go ahead and do what they really wanted to do, which was to show off.
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 11 2014 at 22:23 |
Based on this thread.........DT is still alive and kicking on PA and they win this poll based on the number of times we all have typed DT, Dream Theater vs typed Caravan  Just sayin.....IDC who wins
Edited by Catcher10 - December 11 2014 at 22:25
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micky
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Posted: December 11 2014 at 22:34 |
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hahha. I love my wife Roger and find NO faults with her.
I don't sleep with Keith, nor Greg, and haven't had a chance to seduce Carl yet (I missed my chance damnit) hahah. I like ELP but I wouldn't say I love them. I love Wilie Nelson, the Airplane and the Allmans. ELP is definitely more a fun band for me to listen to, and even more fun to defend their tattered reputation for they were .. really.. simply the most important and influential prog group of the 1970's. Today just a victim of changing tastes and being the biggest target.. and the easiest target for their excesses. Musically and otherwise.
Seriously though. ELP's faults are well known and acknowledged. Showboating does not mean a band is.. well.. not a band. If ELP was a guitar fronted band people would have likely gone apesh*t over it. Face it.. people would rather listen to guitarsts showing off than keyboardists. Rock is full of showboating. It definitely isn't found only in prog. However again that isn't really the point.
What the comment critique of DT is.. and one that definitely does not apply to ELP.. is that their music sounds like 5 instrumentalists doing their own thing and to hell with the music. Sorry, anyone who really thinks that about ELP knows jack sh*t IMO and gets files in the every a****le has an opinion category. Not surprisingly. With the easy target that ELP is.. that is one of the few things NOT mentioned as a common criticism of ELP. Most are the typical parroting criticisms that have gained a life of the their own 'Love beach' sucks... Persian carpets.. totting orchestras on the road, too serious, too pretentious...yadda yadda yadda. However if you note though, very little of ELP's criticism is musically based. Any fool can tell that was a band that killed it, with albums still beloved 40 years later (ummm.. let's talk about DT in 40 years and see who remembers them) Say what you will about ELP... they wrote some extremely good music, catchy songs, and functioned well for a good number of years as a band. Somehow harnessing all those talents... and those egos for about 5 years longer than likely anyone really figured they would have.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: December 11 2014 at 22:46 |
micky, as much I dislike it when say LaBrie points proudly to Petrucci going off on a shred fest (Spirit Carries On performance from the DVD), I am quite sure that those fans who were at their shows or who bought their albums will remember them 40 years later just as ELP fans from the 70s still remember them. I don't think ELP has resonated that much with the younger generation (unlike Floyd, KC or JT) and maybe likewise the youngsters of 40 years hence too won't be much interested in DT. They already sound terribly outdated in the last couple of albums, like they are still stuck in the 90s with nothing new to say anymore. Maybe this is just a case of projecting your tastes and believing that it somehow reflects the consensus or the 'true' position.
Who exactly comes up with this 'common' criticism of DT anyway? Older progheads who don't like prog metal? Why should I presume they know jacksh*t about prog metal anyway? In other words, applying that criticism to DT is only about as valid as it would be to do so to ELP. It doesn't become more valid just because a few venerated collabs of this website also think so. It doesn't become a solid musical criticism just because a lot of older prog listeners repeat that. It is just another opinion, nothing more and nothing less. DT were a BAND up to Awake. There wasn't even very much showboating at that point and overall those albums were much tighter than almost any ELP album. I know you already acknowledged Moore's role in holding the band together. Well, in that case, you cannot make a general statement that as such they have never been a band but just a bunch of musicians displaying their skills.
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micky
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Posted: December 11 2014 at 23:05 |
getting late Roger. let me touch on one thing. I'll check the meat of your post tomorrow. It isn't a matter of validity or veneration. Nor of consensus. I sure as hell haven't made any grand statements that it was. Simply my own humble opinion as a listener. However it is a common critique of the band I have often read, and through several tortured attempts to 'get' this band.. I completely agree with. Simple matter as that really. 
Edited by micky - December 11 2014 at 23:06
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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rogerthat
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Posted: December 11 2014 at 23:21 |
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Just saying that whether people have made the same criticism of DT in the past or haven't done so in the case of ELP has no bearing on the matter. It does not amount to validation or lack thereof and I made that point because you cited the fact that many people agree with you. Maybe so...doesn't necessarily mean anything.
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ole-the-first
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Posted: December 12 2014 at 00:53 |
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Caravan
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This night wounds time.
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akamaisondufromage
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Posted: December 12 2014 at 01:32 |
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Caravan
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Help me I'm falling!
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Stool Man
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Posted: December 12 2014 at 03:19 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I'd vote for Celine Dionne before DT.
Sorry guys, but I can't stand them.
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This.
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rotten hound of the burnie crew
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Round 1 Rome Bracket: Dream Theater v. Caravan
