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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Townscream (After Crying offshot)
    Posted: November 13 2011 at 03:51
Townscream was a hungarian prog.rock band. They released only one album, named "Nagyvarosi  ikonok" in 1997. The bandleader, keyboardist Csaba Vedres was founder memberof  After Crying.
Their style is very close to ELP, and After Crying.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2011 at 07:45
TOWNSCREAM sole album sounds exactly like After Crying work to me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2011 at 14:49
Good stuff. Any more samples available?

I'll notify the Symphonic Prog Team.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2011 at 18:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2011 at 19:05
There are a few more on YouTube too:
 
Track 1 (Nagyvárosi Ikonok 1)
 
 
Track 2 (Nagyvárosi Ikonok II)
 
 
Track 4 (Nagyvárosi Ikonok IV)
 
 
Track 5 (Minden nap)
 
 
 
 
Track 9  (Íme, hát megleltem hazámat)
 
 
 
 
The YouTube sample in the original post was track 7 (Fekete hangulat). The 'Nagyvárosi Ikonok' album has 13 tracks in all.


Edited by yam yam - November 13 2011 at 19:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 03:41
Checking this band for votes in Symphonic... 

Perhaps not Symphonic but PR


Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - November 14 2011 at 03:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 09:41
As Scott said, the three votes were no for Symphonic.

The main problem is that they have some Prog moments (ELP inspired), then some non Prog Jazz - Rock, Folk, mainstream, etc.

My personal opinion is Prog Related, maybe Crossover.

Sorry Fluiddruid, I'm a fan of Eastern Europe Prog, specially Hungarian and Romanian, but this band doesn't fit in Symphonic.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 14 2011 at 09:44
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 16:05
If this band is not symphonic I don't know what symphonic prog is.
Don't send me the link to the genre's definition.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 16:35
Thanks a lot David, I'll check the other samples too and see what can be done. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 18:26
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

If this band is not symphonic I don't know what symphonic prog is.
Don't send me the link to the genre's definition.
 

We have listened all the tracks carefully, and the three of us reached the decision that it's not Symphonic because there's a lot happening in there.

We know what we do, but to be sure, we check the information available so after deciding our votes, we verified other sites and found that the definitions of:

- Proggnosis
- GEPR
- Ground & Sky

Are similar to ours,except Ground & Sky, while Progressiveears doesn't define the band (Something haty happens when a band escapes to their parameters).

Iván

EDIT: BTW: The Vedres page says about TOWNSCREAM:

Quote Thus, we thus formed our band around the December of 1995, but we played for the first time under the name of Townscream in the December of 1996. Our soundman was Egervári Gábor who wrote also the lyrics of our songs. Our music is perhaps the closest to progressive rock, with a classical-music flavour added by the two string instruments. In the beginning of 1997, we had some concerts and then, our first – and so far, only – CD, Nagyvárosi ikonok was released. (We plan to release another CD with the title "Zsoldosok", the material of which is built up of live and studio-like recordings, but the band has not yet succeeded to agree in the program of the CD.) In the second half of 1997 we had relatively few concerts. Then, from the autumn of 1998, our concerts were hosted by Lágymányosi Közösségi Ház (a community centre in Budapest), where we played once a month, but in spite of the success and the growing attendance of our concerts, this possibility lasted for three occasions only.

http://www.vedrescsaba.hu/english/townscream.htm


This clearly points towards Prog Related with a classical flavor, he doesn't say we played Prog, he says that at the point in which they recorded Nagyvárosi ikonok they were PERHAPS CLOSE TO PROG, as we also say..





Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 14 2011 at 18:57
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 19:10
OK, let's check other sources once again:

"eclectic transformation of pure classical inspired pieces into something really progressive", "The use of Piano, Trombone, Flute and other orchestral instruments is done in such way that both Classic music fans and Proggers will adore this album"
"the entrance is assembled by the piano in a pure classic approach and then the music is transported into something more jazzy/fusion when the drums join in"
"pure minstrel medieval and folk sounds"
"This is a great progressive album"

"mixes classical, chamber, symphonic, folk, even a dash of musique concrete with rock music"

"The two longest tracks (just over seven minutes each) ... with the most energy and the biggest symphonic sound (due largely to some killer cello playing)."
"I could see fans of symphonic prog, particularly King Crimson's first two albums"
"It is the most symphonic work I have heard from the After Crying personnel"
"long symphonic workouts with use of strings and horns"


Other sources describe Townscream album as truly progressive and the word "symphonic" is used quite often. Or only "pure symphonic" sound without any other ingredients counts? 


By the way, Pink Floyd don't say they play prog either. Smile


Edited by NotAProghead - November 14 2011 at 19:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 19:22
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

OK, let's check it once again:

"eclectic transformation of pure classical inspired pieces into something really progressive", "The use of Piano, Trombone, Flute and other orchestral instruments is done in such way that both Classic music fans and Proggers will adore this album"
"the entrance is assembled by the piano in a pure classic approach and then the music is transported into something more jazzy/fusion when the drums join in"
"pure minstrel medieval and folk sounds"
"This is a great progressive album"

"mixes classical, chamber, symphonic, folk, even a dash of musique concrete with rock music"

"The two longest tracks (just over seven minutes each) ... with the most energy and the biggest symphonic sound (due largely to some killer cello playing)."
"I could see fans of symphonic prog, particularly King Crimson's first two albums"
"It is the most symphonic work I have heard from the After Crying personnel"
"long symphonic workouts with use of strings and horns"


Other sources describe Townscream album as truly progressive and the word "symphonic" is used quite often. Or only "pure symphonic" sound without any other ingredients counts? 

Have you read the quotes?

The only one that points towards symphonic is  Ground & Sky, and we admited that in my first post.

GEPR says:
Classical + chamber + Symphonic + Folk + Concrete Music

Proggnosis says: Jazz Fusion, Folk, Medieval, etc, doesn't even mention the word Symphonic

But most important, the author says "We were close to prog"


Now, if anothe team accepts them, it's OK with us, we only decide about Symphonic, where we believe the band goes is only a suggestion (opinion if you want),

But all the sites except Ground & Sky PARTIALLY

And I say PARTIALLY because  Brandon Wu from Ground & Sky doesn't mention Symphonic at all (Let's remember that Ground & Sky places three opinions about the band:

Originally posted by Brandon Wu Brandon Wu wrote:

Overall, I prefer the quiet, brooding side of After Crying to the bombastic keyboard-driven side. Seeing as how the majority of Nagyvárosi Ikonok consists of the latter, at first I didn't much care for it. However, the loud, aggressive pieces on here are superior to those found on Fold és ég, and there are still some of those great quiet pieces. The highlights of the louder pieces for me is the cello playing, which is fantastic (truly riveting in "Fekete hangulat"), and some of the more experimental sections, two of which Bob mentions from the title track in his review above. I feel that some of the loud parts don't work too well, however; the vocalist, while he's absolutely great when singing restrained, quiet lines, sounds pretty strained when he gets more aggressive; and some instrumental parts sound a bit trite, especially in "Alászálla a poklokra". The bombastic four-part title track is less than thrilling for me, except for those two more experimental sections. My favorite tracks are, not surprisingly, the quieter ones: the vocal, flute- and acoustic guitar-led "Minden nap", the quiet vocal "Íme, hát megleltem hazámat", the slow, atmospheric, almost Pink Floydian "Így szólt a madár", and especially "Hajnali ének", which uses the melody from King Crimson's "Peace" (a melody that is passed between, and sounds gorgeous on, cello, flute, and trumpet). The closer is a bit louder but is perhaps my favorite of the loud pieces, with a great trumpet line, busy drumming, and a nice bass part. I would put this release a bit above the level of Fold és ég - even if I don't find it an absolute classic, it's definitely as good as most of the After Crying work from the last decade!


At the end it's our call, and the decision is unanimous.


Thanks for the interest.

Iván

EDIT: Pink Floyd never said they played Prog, but Vedres Csaba says "We aspired to lay Prog but we were only close". That's a huge difference.




Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 14 2011 at 19:27
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 19:28
I know, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it".Smile 
I hope another prog team will accept TOWNSCREAM, but I don't think your search for "pure symphonic sound" serves for good.




Edited by NotAProghead - November 14 2011 at 19:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 19:56
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

I know, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it".Smile 
I hope another prog team will accept TOWNSCREAM, but I don't think your search for "pure symphonic sound" serves for good.



Whatever team accepts Townscream, is ok with us.
 

Please, if we searched for pure Symphonic bands:
  1. Kansas
  2. Steve Hackett
  3. After Crying
  4. Yesterdays (Romania)
  5. Triana
  6. Cal
  7. CAI
  8. Aphrodite's Child
  9. Discipline
  10. etc
Would be on another genre, because none of them is purely Symphonic, but at least all them have an impoirtant Symphonic component, unlike Townscream.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 14 2011 at 19:59
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 21:38
I think that the overwhelming concensus from all the comments and reviews we've been given access to in this thread is that this album by Townscream is a fine collection of progressive/classically inspired music indeed. I've just listened to it from start to finish, and was absolutely enthralled by the quality, complexity and variety of compositions on offer, lasting, without any 'filler tracks' being encountered at all, for well over an hour. The problem of course with a work as varied as this is that it inevitably doesn't fit neatly into any of our sub genres -  but it surely belongs on the site without any doubt whatsoever. So what can we do? There are only three alternatives available to us as I see it (to throw it in prog related would be an insult to the musicians who created it as far as I'm concerned). The first is to hope that the team whose sub genre has the greatest amount of recognisable content within the music being evaluated agrees to take them, despite their misgivings concerning the album as a whole - & that, I suppose, would have to be symphonic. However, that team have already said 'no' for reasons which they are perfectly correct and within their rights to state, because this is not an entirely symphonic album by any stretch of the imagination. The second is that eclectic agree to take them because of the wide variety of musical styles that are expressed within the album, even though it isn't really 'eclectic prog' in the true sense of the definition. The third is that crossover take them for pretty well the same reason, though here again it isn't really typical 'crossover prog' either. What we have to hope above all else is that we don't end up with no team wanting to be the ones who agree to take them, and another game of ping-pong developing that has no eventual winner, and ends up with the ball being belted out through an open window, only to go bouncing off down the street, never to be seen again. If that happens then the site will be missing a very significant & worthy Eastern European prog artist, as I'm sure most people here agree, & PA will have failed big-time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2011 at 22:24
Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

I think that the overwhelming concensus from all the comments and reviews we've been given access to in this thread is that this album by Townscream is a fine collection of progressive/classically inspired music indeed. I've just listened to it from start to finish, and was absolutely enthralled by the quality, complexity and variety of compositions on offer, lasting, without any 'filler tracks' being encountered at all, for well over an hour. The problem of course with a work as varied as this is that it inevitably doesn't fit neatly into any of our sub genres -  but it surely belongs on the site without any doubt whatsoever. So what can we do? There are only three alternatives available to us as I see it (to throw it in prog related would be an insult to the musicians who created it as far as I'm concerned). The first is to hope that the team whose sub genre has the greatest amount of recognisable content within the music being evaluated agrees to take them, despite their misgivings concerning the album as a whole - & that, I suppose, would have to be symphonic. However, that team have already said 'no' for reasons which they are perfectly correct and within their rights to state, because this is not an entirely symphonic album by any stretch of the imagination. The second is that eclectic agree to take them because of the wide variety of musical styles that are expressed within the album, even though it isn't really 'eclectic prog' in the true sense of the definition. The third is that crossover take them for pretty well the same reason, though here again it isn't really typical 'crossover prog' either. What we have to hope above all else is that we don't end up with no team wanting to be the ones who agree to take them, and another game of ping-pong developing that has no eventual winner, and ends up with the ball being belted out through an open window, only to go bouncing off down the street, never to be seen again. If that happens then the site will be missing a very significant & worthy Eastern European prog artist, as I'm sure most people here agree, & PA will have failed big-time.

Hi Yam Yam, it's the first time I talk to you, so glad to meet you.

My impression and the impression of the team, is that Symphonic is not the most preeminent element in this band, I personally believe there's a lot of mainstream, plus Folk, plus Jazz, plus a lot more sounds, moods and styles.

Our duty is to accept them or not in Symphonic, and by unanimous vote we don't think they are Symphonic because Classical influence + Rock is not always Symphonic Prog.

The options for me are 
  1. Prog Related
  2. Crossover
  3. .Eclectic
In that order, but in no way we can tell a team to accept or reject them, it's their call, and I would be glad to see them in Prog Archives.

I thank you for your comprehension, and only disagree with you in one point, Symphonic is not the main element.

People tend to mistake Classical or Neo Classical with Symphonic, they listen a cello or a violin and almost immediately think in Symphonic...IMHO Townscream, is a good Rock band with some Classical influences, a lot of Jazz, some Folk and even traces of Minimalism, Except for the first track, I don't listen Symphonic, each track is different to the previous.
 
We are having a similar problem now, Marty McFly sent us a FANTASTIC 100% PROG CZECH BAND CALLED JAN SPALENÝ, IMHO is one of the best bands I ever heard, but sadly is a blend of Psych + Jazz + Heavy Prog + some sort of bard in the vein of Vladimir Vysotsky.

We would had loved to accept the band, but itżs not Symphonic, only fantastic Prog.

Probably we will send them to Eclectic for analysis and hope they are accepted, and if not, they will have to go to Xover  and if not, to  Prog Related....And if they end in PR  I won't see that as an insult, because Prog is not an award, just a genre, we haven't created Prog Related to insult artists, just to add artists not fully Prog.

Glad to talk with you, and hope you understand our team's position and agree to disagree with us.

Thanks

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 14 2011 at 22:31
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2011 at 05:33
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

If this band is not symphonic I don't know what symphonic prog is.
Don't send me the link to the genre's definition.
Agreed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2011 at 06:32
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

If this band is not symphonic I don't know what symphonic prog is.
Don't send me the link to the genre's definition.
Agreed


The band are clearly prog or at least related to prog but they belong in a sub genre that suits them. Symphonic is not suited when you listen to the album as a whole, only parts sound like ELP due to the classical influences.

I hope they get accepted by another sub genre team soon 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2011 at 11:16
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


Hi Yam Yam, it's the first time I talk to you, so glad to meet you.

My impression and the impression of the team, is that Symphonic is not the most preeminent element in this band, I personally believe there's a lot of mainstream, plus Folk, plus Jazz, plus a lot more sounds, moods and styles.

Our duty is to accept them or not in Symphonic, and by unanimous vote we don't think they are Symphonic because Classical influence + Rock is not always Symphonic Prog.

The options for me are 
  1. Prog Related
  2. Crossover
  3. .Eclectic
In that order, but in no way we can tell a team to accept or reject them, it's their call, and I would be glad to see them in Prog Archives.

I thank you for your comprehension, and only disagree with you in one point, Symphonic is not the main element.

People tend to mistake Classical or Neo Classical with Symphonic, they listen a cello or a violin and almost immediately think in Symphonic...IMHO Townscream, is a good Rock band with some Classical influences, a lot of Jazz, some Folk and even traces of Minimalism, Except for the first track, I don't listen Symphonic, each track is different to the previous.
 
We are having a similar problem now, Marty McFly sent us a FANTASTIC 100% PROG CZECH BAND CALLED JAN SPALENÝ, IMHO is one of the best bands I ever heard, but sadly is a blend of Psych + Jazz + Heavy Prog + some sort of bard in the vein of Vladimir Vysotsky.

We would had loved to accept the band, but itżs not Symphonic, only fantastic Prog.

Probably we will send them to Eclectic for analysis and hope they are accepted, and if not, they will have to go to Xover  and if not, to  Prog Related....And if they end in PR  I won't see that as an insult, because Prog is not an award, just a genre, we haven't created Prog Related to insult artists, just to add artists not fully Prog.

Glad to talk with you, and hope you understand our team's position and agree to disagree with us.

Thanks

Iván
 
Thank you for your reply Iván.
 
I have every respect for you and your team's knowledge regarding what constitutes true symphonic prog, and fully accept what you say concerning this band 'Townscream'. I too did not consider it a genuine symphonic prog album, but thought from my own rather limited understanding of the sub genre that maybe it had more of this represented within the music than any of the other specialised sub genres that are available for us on progarchives. Herein lies the problem of course - our sub genres are all quite specialised, with the exception of prog related and to a lesser extent, crossover. Therefore when an artist such as Townscream with such a diverse range of musical styles pops up, we inevitably have a problem finding a suitable home for them. Other prog sites do not have this problem - they do not divide their database into specialised sub genres in the way that we do - they just add an artist if they are considered prog and that's it...job done! We try to go a step further and classify an artist more narrowly within the overall progressive rock genre which is one of the reasons why our site is probably the best and most informative of all of them. However, sometimes this can work against us, and an artist such as Townscream who cannot be neatly fitted into one of our sub genres can end up being lost to the site altogether, leaving a gap in our database which the other sites do not have. The point I was trying to make was that in a case like this we should maybe encourage the team whose sub genre is considered the most appropriate to relax their guidelines a little and try to accommodate the band rather than enforcing them rigidly and the band thus being rejected from the site altogether. Hopefully, either eclectic or crossover team will adopt this approach and the band will be added to one of those sub genres in the near future, but I often think that the approach of the prog metal team is perhaps the best in a situation like this. Karl (bonnek) once said in a reply to one of my posts, when I said I couldn't hear much metal in a band they'd just added: "if it's prog and there's a scrap of metal in it, then we'll annexe it". Sometimes, and certainly in cases like this, I think this approach is highly laudable - some my say that it devalues the integrity of the database to do this, but since none of the other sites seem to bother with prog sub genres anyway, I really don't think it matters.
 
Thanks again for your reply. I do understand your team's stance regarding the type of artists you are willing to accept, but I hope you can also see the problem we can sometimes end up with if every team on the site were to adopt the same approach. Prog artists that simply 'do not fit' anywhere are going to end up being missed out altogether, and that cannot be good for the site.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2011 at 14:44
^ Good point.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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