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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bands with one-off prog albums?
    Posted: May 19 2004 at 05:50

I don't think Progarchives has made itself flexible enough to include bands who flirted with prog but did not stay in the territory for more than one or two albums.  Hence some folks may be missing out on some classics. Some examples, and you'll note 3 from 4 are based on concept and/or rock operas:

Wishbone Ash: Pilgrimage and Argus

Pretty Things: SF Sorrow

Who: Tommy and Quadraphenia (and I suppose with its belated release, Lifehouse could be added)

Spooky Tooth/Pierre Henry: Ceremony.

 

For display purposes and guidance to browsers in his shop, Alan Freeman , owner of Ultima Thule in Leicester has labelled the display case for 'Ceremony': the 'most difficult progressive rock album". I suppose he is right especially as a warning to new listeners, hence my review (taken back from Amazon) now waiting for that special section in Progarchives:

Ceremony: Spooky Tooth/Pierre Henry

5 
out of 5 stars Quote: "The most challenging piece of prog rock"
There are no two ways about this album, you will love it (give it five) or hate it (give it nothing). As part of Spooky Tooth's discography it doesn't sit comfortably with the recordings that came by before (some great rock riffs on the first couple of albums) or after (for instance, the brilliant reading of 'I'm The Walrus'). Spooky Tooth were an early heavish rock band , with two distinctive lead vocalists and Hammond organ, along with the usual guitar, bass and drums. They eventually evolved into Foreigner. With those thoughts, then you can guess the idea for 'Ceremony" or more strictly a rock version of the Catholic Mass, largely came from the legendary French, avante gard electronic composer, Pierre Henry. Henry from the 50's had been composing using using tape recorders, long before analog synths appeared.

Then before the advent of Christian rock bands, musicians had dabbled with the  Mass, although the Electric Prunes weren't quite up to the standard of Herr Mozart. To retain the intregity and therefore the spiritual elements of the Mass, it is difficult to tamper with the words. The music therefore has to provide many things. Some tracks are prefaced by Henry, who is attempting to provide the abstract, emotional soundscape - perhaps to evoke a communion with a higher force or the meditive state of prayer - through his electronic sounds. But if you know Henry's music, then you will know it will be far more towards the school of Stockhaussen than even Wendy Carlos, rather than Keith Emerson, i.e. lacking the instant appeal of a rock moog player. A great rock voice but seriously and powerfully singing the words of the Mass, is another shock to be absorbed. But there is a familiarity in the rock instrumentation and essentially rock tunes, with Spooky Tooth only partly toned down for the occasion. The real joy of this record is that the band have room to power up to their usual dynamic selves, but from the comparatively quiet starts in several sections to this mass. Hence there is deliberate musical tension with a reflective opening progressing towards a joyous explosion of religious fervour (I hear this although I'm an agnostic).

As a one-off experiment, the results largely justify the efforts, even though it is atypical of Spooky Tooth. If you want something different from the normal run, try this record. If prefer your 70's hard rock not to venture far from its usual territory, avoid it. Perhaps Pierre Henry fans will be the more adventurous.  



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2004 at 05:52
My tooth hurts
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2004 at 06:21

Originally posted by Velvetclown Velvetclown wrote:

My tooth hurts

 

Spooky!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2004 at 09:35
Pierre Henry... Wasn't he that man who made weird avant-garde music? I think I've heard about him at school...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2004 at 17:12

 ^ (A response to Dick Heath's post)

Ermm Ah yes -- the endless old "what is, and isn't prog?" debate....Confused

I'm a big Wishbone Ash fan, Dick, and I particularly enjoy Argus.

Terrific album! But progressive rock? Maybe.... No keyboards though....

Ermm The whole matter is just so subjective....

Also, remember that two humans (one of whom is a good deal younger than old fogies like you or IWink) with other jobs  run the site, and they can't be expected to have heard every possible prog-contender out there, especially some of the older stuff.

Big smile  I'm just now listening to Bowie's classic The Man Who Sold the World. One could argue that the title track, "All the Madmen," the superlative "Width of a Circle" and "The Supermen" are prog (they're certainly progressive), but many would dispute the notion. What about the track "Space Oddity"? Arguably prog, but the rest of the disc really isn't. Certainly Low and Heroes could fit here, (possibly Lodger, with Belew, and Scary Monsters, with Fripp, as well) but what to do with the rest of the Bowie catologue?

Then there are the more obvious contenders that are missing: Eno, Manzanera/801, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk, Horslips, David Sylvian, etc, etc!

One must be patient! Stern Smile

PS: I'm a HUGE Who fan from way back -- I used to positively live and breathe Quadrophenia, but I would dispute the notion that it or Tommy qualify as "capital P, capital R" Progressive Rock. Certainly, I'd never mix tracks from those in with artists like Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant, Genesis, etc, on one of my own prog compilations.

Smile One man's prog is another man's rock -- both genres are very mutable, and often overlap, and one's response to a given piece of music (or art in general) is such an unavoidably personal thing....

What say you to that, Brother Dick? (Others of the fraternity may also "weigh in," of course!Smile)

Cheers!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2004 at 19:23
[QUOTE=Peter Rideout]

 ^ (A response to Dick Heath's post)

Ermm Ah yes -- the endless old "what is, and isn't prog?" debate....Confused

I'm a big Wishbone Ash fan, Dick, and I particularly enjoy Argus.

Terrific album! But progressive rock? Maybe.... No keyboards though....


Alas one of the problems of over-proscriptive definitions created in hindsight -  we didn't suffer such tunnel vision  until much before punks arrived on the scene........................................ And the "no keyboard" thing goes back to Jerry Lucky's interminable set of prog definitions in "Progressive Rock Files" - if Sid Smith doesn't do soon I'll write the definitive prog book covering the first 10 years and  eliminate some of this nonsense. Did you ever notice Jan Hammer on several of his albums (post Mahavishnu) tended to include the motto, "no electric guitars on this record" - just as Queen told you "there were no Synths" - or was just plain "keyboards". Having or not keyboard wasn't counternance originally  - where were Tull's????

Ermm The whole matter is just so subjective....

Also, remember that two humans (one of whom is a good deal younger than old fogies like you or IWink) with other jobs  run the site, and they can't be expected to have heard every possible prog-contender out there, especially some of the older stuff.

No problem and it is impossible to know every one - but soon or later to meet the objectives of this site that attracted me here, expansion has to happen adding the sensible and the less sensible suggestions. Perhaps then any  group biographer should include the proviso "considered by some  to be prog".  And you say only 2????????????

Big smile  I'm just now listening to Bowie's classic The Man Who Sold the World. One could argue that the title track, "All the Madmen," the superlative "Width of a Circle" and "The Supermen" are prog (they're certainly progressive), but many would dispute the notion. What about the track "Space Oddity"? Arguably prog, but the rest of the disc really isn't. Certainly Low and Heroes could fit here, (possibly Lodger, with Belew, and Scary Monsters, with Fripp, as well) but what to do with the rest of the Bowie catologue?

Rather than concept albums Bowie  had concepts of lifestyle which were reflected in his recordings and stage personna - therefore could be viewed as literally progressing rock.

Then there are the more obvious contenders that are missing: Eno, Manzanera/801, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk, Horslips, David Sylvian, etc, etc!

<>Manzanera flirts a lot with prog, but albums shift to and fro into straight rock and even pop - and then you get his world music.... Manazanera guests with John Etheridge's Zappatistas, check it out!!

One must be patient! Stern Smile

I am, I have long looked for a reasonable prog site and this looks it, so I have lots of patience - but I make no apologies by being pushy. I'll keep up the promotion Touch, for instance, and for the recognition they deserve as America's first prog band.

PS: I'm a HUGE Who fan from way back -- I used to positively live and breathe Quadrophenia, but I would dispute the notion that it or Tommy qualify as "capital P, capital R" Progressive Rock. Certainly, I'd never mix tracks from those in with artists like Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant, Genesis, etc, on one of my own prog compilations.

Haggled myself an excellent discount on the new Who 'Kid Are Alright' DVD yesterday - and with the wife out at the cinema, had it on very loud, last night. If you haven't got it - get it, it is worth all the recent critical praise!!!!  Townshend's instrumental interludes on 'Quadraphenia' (my favouite Who album), are  straight from the prog songbook

Smile One man's prog is another man's rock -- both genres are very mutable, and often overlap, and one's response to a given piece of music (or art in general) is such an unavoidably personal thing....

What say you to that, Brother Dick? (Others of the fraternity may also "weigh in," of course!Smile)

Yes I most certainly appreciate that point, but we old foogies owe it to the more inquiring, younger members who wish to discover early prog,(and I've have had a number of listeners of my radio show ask me for samplers, so as to make up their own minds before searching out the bands/albums), and let them make the choice whether THEY hear prog or straight rock.

BTW if you want to meet a really strident voice promoting prog you should visit Alan Freeman at his shop Ultima Thule in Leicester over here. I have a lot of excellent  "debates" with him (lets face it, he is a full time professional prog expert) but he always sells me something from the back catalogue I've never heard before (Ibis and Vinegar are the latest, '72 and '74 respectively). He didn't replace Spock Beard once the stock was sold for being too derivative. Counter to what I think, he tells me a lot of jazz rock is noodling. The quote I've put up about Spooky Tooth/Pierre Henry's 'Ceremony' is Freeman's. But I've yet to meet anybody who knows European prog like he does - Julian Cope, acknowledged Krautrock expert, bows to Alan Freman and his brother on the subject (check out their book 'Cosmic Egg') -  the Passport sampler was compiled by Freeman at the request of  Atlantic Germany.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2004 at 22:00

Let me see:

Roling Stones: Their Satanic Majesties Request.

The Who: Tommy & Quadrophenia

Queen: A Night at the Opera

Roxy Music: Roxy Music

Manfred Mann's Earth Band: The Roaring Silence

Osibisa: Woyaya

The Beatles: Sgt Peppers & Abbey Road

Iván

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2004 at 20:53
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Let me see:

Roling Stones: Their Satanic Majesties Request.

The Who: Tommy & Quadrophenia

Queen: A Night at the Opera

Roxy Music: Roxy Music

Manfred Mann's Earth Band: The Roaring Silence

Osibisa: Woyaya

The Beatles: Sgt Peppers & Abbey Road

Iván



No arguments there. Better add Pete Townshend's Lifehouse House Project, at long last  issued on 5 CDs about 2 years ago. Always liked Queen's Sheer Heart Attack - Brighton Rock always struck me as heavy prog.


Love - Forever Changes??????????????? Post psychedelia (when most other bands had only just got come to it) or proto prog? Personally much prefer this album to Pepper or Pet Sounds from that era.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2004 at 23:50
Wishbone > Argus is great. I also enjoy New England and There's the Rub.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2004 at 04:31
Yes, I'd put "Argus" in the prog category. The keyboards are there OK, John Tout plays organ on "Throw down the sword". "Phoenix" on the first album is also more than a little progressive, and there's a great live version on the remastered "Argus" CD.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2004 at 15:37
iron maiden - seventh son of a seventh son
http://www.grassrootsx.com/pulse - my band
http://giittv.1.forumer.com - cultural fanzine forum
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2004 at 17:50

Originally posted by richey richey wrote:

iron maiden - seventh son of a seventh son

I disagree! I even think Seventh Son was not a good Iron Maiden album. The only album you could consider PROG is their self-titled debut. With that great song ...Phantom Of The Opera!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2004 at 19:33

I was thinking about Allman Brother's Eat a Peach. And not only because 33 min Mountain Jam (which is great), but also Les Brers In A Minor which is a wonderful prog piece.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2004 at 05:36

Beatles ?? The who?? Iron maiden?? Queen?? Rolling stones??

and in the other thread you added Death to the want-to-add-list ??

I think in two months time i'll find Cradle of filth or Salyer, or even Air supply or Elvis in the archives  and dont forget -of course- mariah carey

Maybe i am missing something here, does a band making one near prog song because of any mood changes of the artist or because of experimental puposes, adds them to the archive??

IMO, i dont think these bands ever "intended" to be prog..

when i sell my life story, maybe i should write it first and do the living later 'cause life is so much cleaner on the page
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2004 at 12:33
Originally posted by DoomHammer DoomHammer wrote:

IMO, i dont think these bands ever "intended" to be prog..

 

Hey you indirect reinforce my point that prog suffers from hindsight-based over-prescriptive definitions. Little or none of this punditary was around when these bands were around. Early prog band won't intended one thing or the other, other than the intention of producing good music - the pundits unfortunately stuck them with the tag AFTERWARDS.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2004 at 17:09
Originally posted by DoomHammer DoomHammer wrote:

Iron maiden??...

IMO, i dont think [this] band ever "intended" to be prog..

So therefore, according to the very site of progarchives.com, by logic we can infer that they didn't intend to have "Long compositions with complicated structures and highly professional instrumental parts, concept albums and intellectual lyrics"?

By which I mean, you don't have to intend to be labeled "prog" to be progressive; to name the two examples I can actually think of, Magma never had any allegiance with the prog scene and Dream Theater said something about having progressive influences while not being strictly a prog band.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2004 at 01:34

All:

This discussion belongs in the thread on what bands should (or should not) be added to (or deleted from) the site.

However, I believe it has been established - if not de facto then tacitly - that an artist should not be on this site unless the majority of their work was written from a consciously prog approach.  The fact that two Who albums out of 20 may (or may not) be prog is simply too little to call them "prog."  And while some bands either started non-prog and became prog (e.g., The Church), or started prog and ended up in other directions (e.g., Genesis), those bands warrant their place here because the majority (and usually the vast majority) of their careers (and albums) were clearly "prog."

We would be going down a dangerously slippery slope to change that.

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2004 at 16:08

I understand Dick's proposal to be that a separate section be established for the one off prog albums which such bands produced, not to list all their work.

I'd certainly support such a proposal, although I readily acknowledge that the contents would inevitibly cause some controversy.

Controversy (while always civil) is what the forum thrives on!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 18:48
we shouldn't have one offs. this is a site for strict prog rock bands. but i do have a list of the best one of prog albums i know

radiohead - ok computer
radiohead - kid a
radiohead - amnesiac
blur - 13
oasis - be here now
kyuss - welcome to sky valley
the who - tommy
the who - quadrophenia
black sabbath - black sabbath
led zeppelin - presence
metallica - master of puppets
metallica - ride the lightning
metallica - ...and justice for all
muse - origin of symmetry
muse - absolution
the beta band - the three ep's
the cooper temple clause - kick up the fire and let the flames break loose
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