a Logical defination for Progressive Rock

Syntharachnid wrote: cmidkiff wrote: [QUOTE=Syntharachnid]   If you define it this way then most bands after the initial bands of the 70s have failed because they have not added complexity or they haven't progressed the sound. All these bands are still using drums, guitars, keyboards, vocals, etc. and re-using the same old chords. In this way the genre would become a paradox, and the sound would have to constantly change not sounding like what came before it, progressing its way right out of the initial genre.   'Spose I should have been more specific.  I don't mean that in order to be progressive, a group has to do something entirely new, they just have to do something uncommon.  They should have a sound that doesn't have a stuckinarut sameness to it as radio-rock bands like Nickelback do. For example, Marillion are definately progressive, because of Fish's theatricality which doesn't need a visual medium to shine through, because of obvious classical influences on each individual musician, and because of a deep thinking air about the whole thing that is absent in the music of AC/DC.  Genesis did it all first, but Marillion did it too, and are therefore also progressive.  IMHO, being derivitive does not mean a band is not progressive, because they are still more progressive than the mainstream.

I agree

DallasBryan wrote: after the late 60's psychedelic period in America that progressive = pioneers and the english did much in the way of progressing the movement. Just an opionion!

 

If progressive = pioneers then we wouldn't be able to identify it as a style or genre. There were many music pioneers: The first disco bands, the first punk bands, the first metal bands, the first rap bands, etc., and I don't think we would consider them as part of the "Progressive" genre.

Gaston wrote: I'll cut and paste my thoughts... From earlier: There should only be a few categories and they should go by era, not sound. Psychedelic/60s, Progressive-Rock, Neo-Progressive and now this one. [post-prog] From there you have basically the psychedelic rock "era" ending in 69 with Woodstock and the Progressive Rock "era" starting with ITCOTKC, The Yes Album and Meddle, believe it or not. Then you had Frank across the pond taking his "psychedelic" (sheesh, don't roll THAT much, Frank ) and then RIO starting along with the emergence of Beefheart et al. American psychedelia merely refers to anything pre-69. What would you call Frank in 64? Fusion? I don't think so. So all the bands from at least 70 on should be then classified as "Progressive Rock" as a genre. It has sub genres, you can go that far I guess, but it's really just one big category of Prog including symphonic, RIO, Canterbury, all the mainland stuff in France and Italy etc, until you get to about, hrmmm, I would personally say it changed to "Neo-Prog" about 79 or 80, I think The Wall really did it, but it had to do with the break up and freedom of Genesis members going on their own, the defection of Rick from Yes, he went that way kinda too, except Collins and Gabriel obviously hit it on the current trends of the mainstream culture at that time and Rick, btw who I respect tenfold more for doing it, went solo, like ACTUALLY solo and did his piano stuff. Then ELP. Disintegrated the same way all of them did, the onset of all the late 70s popular culture forced the "old ones" (who had just been "popular") to, well I hate to say it, but...keep up. It's true. And so that's what happened and you see the last gaspings of the crazy pompous hubris of the theatrical elements of things like Pink Floyd concerts, obviously The Wall itself acting as the final catalyst to the demise of Waters Pink Floyd. The Krim were a little different, thought they just morphed, the life of the bounced around session player becoming tiresome to some of them around 1984, you can see Asia going that way of disintigration, but you don't see Krim going that way. Frank either. Krim never changed from their original course of concept. Rush, I don't think, ever changed. Yes died completely (but were to resurrect later), they actually were MASSIVE victims of this sudden apocalypse. Some of the others got away with relatively unscathed - the guys from Genesis, Greg Lake and Carl Palmer, the Asia guys in other words. So then Steve comes back to actually be the one to resurrect Yes in, believe it or not, Union. While Union may have been the last straw for them all trying to work things out, it was inevitable that Yes would straighten up. They all knew what had to be done. They needed original Yes. But enough of this, we're talking about neo-prog. So basically the disintigration of the 70s prog bands (arguably to "keep up") and the formation of a new breed of prog artists not as influential in mainstream but with combined attitudes of their former prog hero's; created the new category of prog from that experience and creativity. And that's all remained, with all it's sub categories too (like progressive metal and such) and it's remained to around, I'd really say about 1999, turn of the century. Then we have alot of the new stuff which is modernly minimalist (synths do alot of things, you know) with more a politicized, post modern message, veritably, well, poigniantly melodramatically apocalyptic, Soma. I would personally classify alot of the new stuff as post-prog. It really is. That's because prog is just simply one big genre. One genre that's supposed to describe really, these four musical categories. There shouldn't be a definition of "prog" at all anyways. Progressive means going somewhere, an end point. We have this idea now, we're going to do this idea next, then after that.... until this end point where we have actually "progressed" from one stage to the next. We KNEW where we were progressing to. So does any band actually do this? I would say no. Therefore no band is progressive, this site shouldn't exist, Radiohead is music, blah blah blah. Gaston

This is more of a historical perspective. I was trying to come up with a practical difinition using the word progressive from a musical perspective. Its hard to identify what belongs in the genre if there isn't some sort of definition. Maybe progressive was to vague of a term to use when it was used to describe the genre. Does progressive describe the genre itself or the music within the genre? Maybe it should have been called "Complex Rock" or "Sophisitcated Rock". Country Music doesn't seem to have this problem although that term "Country" is even more vague.

Infinity wrote: I'd love to know what the bands make of all of this

I don't think they make anything of it. They are to busy making music, as it should be.

KNOWLEDGE!

 

only trying to supply a little direction to the lost and
curious.

Cert your studies are well founded and to be
commended!
SALUT!!!

Edited by DallasBryan

DallasBryan

You have an impressive catalogue of music.

THIS IS PROGRESSIVE ROCK in the 70's!

1. SYMPHONIC ROCK

Italy (approximately 1972-77)
Arguably one of the most successful schools
influenced by the stylistic pioneers of the mid to late
60s/70s. Premiata Forneria Marconi, Banco del
Mutuo Soccorso, Le Orme, Latte E Miele, Museo
Rosenbach etc.

France (70s-early 80s)
There are at least two threads of the symphonic
school in France's impressive musical heritage.
Some bands were influenced by the British pioneers
such a Yes and King Crimson while others were
more influence by the "theatrical rock" of Genesis.
The former include Atoll, Pulsar, and Carpe Diem.
The latter, categorized as such due to their use of
costumes and stage presence, include Ange and
Mona Lisa.

2. PROGRESSIVE ROCK

Art Rock
Another term often used interchangeably with
progressive rock, art rock implies rock with an
exploratory tendency. Another definition of "art rock"
describes music of a more mainstream
compositional nature, tending to experimentation
within this framework. Early Roxy Music, David
Bowie, Brian Eno's 70s rock music, and Be Bop
Deluxe serve as examples of the latter definition.

Blues Rock
Blues rock evolved into more experimental
permutations from John Mayall, Cream and the
Yardbirds to Steamhammer, Colosseum,
Groundhogs, Tonton Macoute, and Bakerloo, due
largely to the incorporation of psychedelic and jazz
influences into the music. A similar evolution is
encountered in the United States with bands like the
Allman Brothers and Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.

Krautrock
A term that usually describes the highly influential
German rock of the early 70s, especially bands
associated with the Ohr, Brain, Pilz, and Kosmische
music labels. The varying styles falling under this
umbrella were influenced by both German
experimental electronic music and the psychedelic
rock and beat of the late 60s. These range from the
Ohr and Kosmische label's wild tangle of acid rock
and electronica such as Ash Ra Tempel, Cosmic
Jokers, Guru Guru and Tangerine Dream to the
more rhythmically insistent, post-psychedelic
experimentations of Faust, Neu, Kraftwerk and Can.

Proto-Progressive
Where late 60s psych ends and early 70s
progressive rock begins is often referred to as
proto-progressive, due to the music's embryonic
similarities to the earliest progressive rock groups.
While this is accurate as far as the definition of
"proto-" goes, another common definition of this term
is sort of as "almost progressive," artists which
might bear some resemblance to the genre, but are
not commonly considered as such. Some widely
varying examples of what might be considered
"proto-prog" are The Beatles circa Magical Mystery
Tour and Sgt. Peppers ..., Tommy and Quadrophenia
period Who, Procol Harum, Traffic, early Deep Purple
and Uriah Heep.

Psychedelic (Rock)
A major precursor to the progressive rock of the 70s
is the psychedelic rock of the late 60s, which is too
vast a field to cover in detail here yet is intertwined
inextricably with its musical offspring. This
genre/qualifier covers a large amount of territory in
common with progressive rock and mostly concerns
itself with a mind-expanding approach associated
with hallucinogenic and surreal imagery and its
equivalent musical relationship. Bands falling within
this style are often cross-genre (see VIII.
Unclassified for examples) and vary from the early
pioneers such as the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix,
Jefferson Airplane, Pink Floyd, Country Joe & The
Fish, Small Faces, and Strawberry Alarm Clock.

3. BY COUNTRY

Britain (late 60s to mid 70s)
There were many groups considered "progressive
rock" at the dawn of the 70s which probably do not fit
at all into most of the above schools. Many of the
groups were associated with pioneering labels like
Vertigo, Deram, Dawn, Transatlantic, Neon, Harvest,
Charisma and Island. There were rock groups
exploring eastern stylings such as Marsupilami,
Samurai, Jade Warrior and East of Eden and heavy
post psychedelic rock like High Tide and Jody Grind.
Some of the more guitar jam oriented groups like
Man and Wishbone Ash explored lengthy rock
ruminations without succumbing to the highly
structured music of the time. Bands such as Jethro
Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator and Family were
defined by their vocalist's signature, some of them
achieving great success especially in mainland
Europe. Other important groups of the era include
the Strawbs, Raw Material, Second Hand, and
Gnidrolog.

Holland (early 70s)
Dutch musicians also exhibited strong tendencies
towards new forms of rock, influenced immediately
by the psychedelic rock from across the channel and
the Atlantic. The country's rock scene had a head
start with one of the earliest psychedelic/progressive
groups Group 1850. Focus became quickly notable
for its combination of rock, classical, and ancient
music. Other important Dutch progressives of the
era included Golden Earring, Earth & Fire,
Supersister and Finch, all of whose stylistic
tendencies don't verge overwhelmingly in any one
direction.

Denmark (70s)
Denmark had a very fertile but continually ignored
underground whose progressive variations rarely fit
comfortably into any particular style (fusion greats
Secret Oyster are one exception). Perhaps the most
unrecognized scene in progressive rock.

Sweden (70s to present)
The Swedish rock underground has always
produced a wide variety of high-quality music. There
were several bands in the 70s that paralleled that of
Germany's Kosmiche music, such as Algarnas
Tradgard, International Harvester, Flasket Brinner,
and Trad Gras och Stenar. The Silence label in
Sweden was notable for introducing many rock
bands (including several of the above) who
displayed a certain traditional touch such as early
Samla Mammas Manna, Kebnekaise, Ragnarok,
and Triangulus. A noteable modern practitioner of
this notably Swedish rock style is Grovjobb.

France (70s)
Almost like there was a delay on the influences from
overseas, France developed a surprisingly
innovative rock scene in the early 70s that still
remains a separate entity from all the various styles
of music the French have added to over the years.
Clearlight, Lard Free and Heldon also being major
influences to the continental european progressive
rock scene with major contributions of
space/cosmic/kosmiche music.

4. JAZZ FUSION

Canterbury
This genre, named by the town in Kent, England
where the musicians in the mid-60s group The
Wilde Flowers hailed from (a band which was
progenitor to both the Soft Machine and Caravan),
drew on varying elements of classical architecture.
Although the Soft Machine and Caravan were the
only groups to originate from Canterbury itself. The
styles of the artists adopted under the Canterbury
genre varied from the psychedelic whimsy of
Caravan, the increasingly jazz-rock Soft Machine, and
the sly song structures of Kevin Ayers onto some of
the most intricate rock ever created in Hatfield and
The North and National Health. Canterbury music
also overlapped with British jazz-rock (see below),
space rock pioneers Gong, classical rock in Egg,
RIO forefathers Henry Cow and melodic progressive
group Camel.

Zeuhl
The term Zeuhl came from the genre's progenitor
Magma as part of the band's invented language
meaning "celestial." Magma brought in a wide
number of influences from Orff, Stravinsky and
Bartók to Coltrane and R&B to create one of the most
influential and original progressive rock styles of the
time. Bands that fall under the Zeuhl rubric vary from
offshoot bands such as Weidorje, Zao and later Dun
and Eskaton.

5. PROGRESSIVE ELECTRONIC ROCK

Germany (70s)
The advent of electronic music in Germany,
especially through the work of Stockhausen and the
influence of the psychedelic era, was largely a
product of the krautrock legacy. The most famous
progenitors of progressive electronic rock music are
Edgar Froese (Tangerine Dream, solo), Conrad
Schnitzler (Tangerine Dream, solo), Klaus Schulze
(Ash Ra Tempel, Tangerine Dream, solo), and
Manuel Gottsching (Ash Ra Tempel, Ashra, solo), all
who began their formative careers on the genre's
preliminary label, Ohr. These musicians evolved with
the burgeoning technology of the era to become four
of the most prolific and influential artists of their time,
all changing face over the course of time to cover an
unequalled amount of territory. This primary school
of electronic music was the dominant influence for
most of the other schools in this section.

Berlin School
Music typified as Berlin School is inherited from the
70s German pioneers in the style, especially that of
Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze. It is
recognizable by its prevalent use of sequencers to
give the music a rhythmic pulse behind a layering of
electronic atmospheres. Berlin School music is the
dominant European style even today, from its roots
through its myriad of modern progenitors, from the
completely derivative to the far removed. Early Berlin
School artists include Wolfgang Bock and Albert Von
Deyen.

6. UNCLASSIFIED

Several roads from the previous sections lead to the
Unclassified. In rock, jazz, folk and electronic, the
groups considered avant-garde (avant-rock,
avant-jazz and avant-folk) verge in the direction of the
unclassified as the conventions of the operative
music are thrown aside. Some excellent examples
of the Unclassified where all these musics meet
include Pierrot Lunaire's Gudrun, a place where no
particular style is the mainstay and elements are
juxtaposed in unusual ways in a strange, alchemic
cocktail. Älgarnas Trädgård's Framtiden Är Ett
Svävande Skepp, Förankrat i Forntiden is a similar
hybrid, although resulting from the psychedelic
school years earlier and covering enough influences
to make any single reference point invalid by default.
Italian pop artist Franco Battiato spent a long
number of years in the 70s creating an unparalleled
stream of albums that seemed to flirt with just about
every genre mentioned here so far, from the strange
electronic and folk experimentations of Foetus to the
later minimalist electronic works of the mid to late
70s.


Edited by DallasBryan

FuzzyDude wrote: King Lear!! I love that play! One of Shakespeare's most thought-provoking.

I love the paradox of the Fool and the King. (Nuncle), he was a wit. Could a king be wise without a fool such as this.
 
i couldn't fit it all in but the last part of that verse is
'leave thy drink and thy whore
and keep in-a-door,
and thou shalt have more
than two tens to a score.'

Bursting with all the frailities of human nature, so emotive, violent as the storm they were caught in. .

Anyway, whatever its going to be called, the innovators of this original genre of music art/symphonic/experimental didn't have to get a whole stack of fans to push for their inclusion in it. They created it. Its been that way since Mozart was a boy.