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crimson87 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Learning guitar and music theory on my own
    Posted: February 01 2009 at 19:50
I was wondering if anyone got to play an instrument without reciveing formal lessons , on his own I mean. Does anyone know what's the best method to learn how to play. I am asking this because I don't have the time to study music as a career.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2009 at 19:56
I took lessons but I also taught myself, mostly by soloing or playing along with music and then trying to learn the songs on my own.. eventually your ear can develop so you can find correct chords though it takes a lot of time and work, good luck to you.  I don't really recommend songbooks as they often inaccurate.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2009 at 22:52
A very small percentage of guitarists are actually formally trained. You could find a guitar method book that goes in the direction you want to play. If you want to learn to read musical notation get a cheap classical guitar and the Frederick Noad book. However finding a good guitar tutor will stop you misunderstanding things and learning techniques the wrong way. If you just want to learn from tab there are a myriad resources on the net- some good, most bad. You could also get Guitar Pro. This is an excellent learning tool for guitarists, as you see both the notation and the tab on screen and you can slow the tempo right down to learn it. Guitar Pro tabs are freely available on the net, however Guitar Pro itself is a paid for product.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2009 at 23:08
I've never had a single guitar lesson in my life, but I can play Buckethead and Opeth songs note for note, learning purely by ear and never using tablature, if that is worth anything.
I can sight read, albeit at a very low level and I have a very good understanding of modes too, as well as concepts like counterpoint, polyphony etc.

But, if I could go back in time, I would have gotten a teacher.
I spent the first year and a half of playing electric guitar with horrible technique, so I literally had to start from scratch.
I spent months working on scales and economy of motion to unlearn all those bad technique habits.
It was worth those months in the end, but I wish I got it right in the first place.

If you don't have a guitar teacher, get one ASAP because it will be the best method to learn how to play, easily.
A good teacher will be some of the best money you'll ever spend and a good teacher is hugely inspirational too.


Edited by HughesJB4 - February 01 2009 at 23:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2009 at 23:15
I can only confirm what other have said before me:

Learn songs by ear right from the start. It takes time to start with, but it'll be incredibly rewarding in the end. Start with something simple, far-from-subtle and easy-to-hear, picking out the individual tones (a treat when you're learning bass, in most cases not a lot of chord work). You can use tabs later to make sure you're correct, but beware, you can't be sure of their accuracy. It's a great boost for your self-confidence when you notice something is wrong Smile

It will require a lot of work, but you really only have to reach a certain point, and forward from that, things will be so much easier.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2009 at 23:26
Actually no, never start learning songs straight away, as that is a common cause of incorrect technique.
Sometimes incorrect technique can be detriment on your wrists and possibly fingers, to the point where you may never be able to play again.
Seriously, make sure your technique is correct before you play anything and you'll actually progress faster and easier that way too.
You're body and your arms/hands/wrists need to be as relaxed as possible at ALL TIMES, and I cannot stress this enough, because I know many people who have injured themselves from being too tense and having incorrect technique.
It may look dorky and not very classic rock and al, but I have my strap set to maximum height on my guitar and this ensures my wrists are at a comfortable angle to the neck and also means I can stretch my fretting hand out further too.
Warming up is of utmost importance. Absolutely never go full speed blazing out as soon as you pick up the guitar out of the case/off the stand.
10 minutes AT THE LEAST, but a full 25 minutes if you can.


Hence why a teacher is important because they will get you onto the correct road to good technique sooner.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2009 at 23:30
True.

I was lucky enough to have a father that plays both guitar and bass teach me such things. However, I can't be sure that's "perfect", but I've never had any problems with strain. But I also play with my bass pretty damn high, which amuses my friends, but makes me feel relaxed and more efficient Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2009 at 02:47

You don't learn standing up - that comes much later - you'll generally find the sitting position that's comfortable for you is dictated by the shape of the guitar (so don't rush out and buy a Flying-V or  BC Rich Wink).

If you cannot afford a teacher - find a friendly guitarist who can give  you a few lessons in the basics, as Harry says - starting with a good technique will pay dividends.


Edited by Dean - February 02 2009 at 02:48
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2009 at 03:37
Yeah, it's worth it to have a teacher in the beginning.  Most of my time teaching is spent correcting "self-taught" mistakes Wink  It's best to nip those things in the bud. 

Just seeing someone 30 minutes a week can make a big difference, and give you the motivation to stick with it.

It's also my experience that adults tend to complicate things way more than they have to when learning by themselves, and having a teacher can prevent this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2009 at 07:33
Loads of advice in just one day , thanks for everyone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2009 at 09:03
I've never had a single guitar lesson in my life, but I can play Buckethead and Opeth songs note for note, learning purely by ear and never using tablature, if that is worth anything.
I can sight read, albeit at a very low level and I have a very good understanding of modes too, as well as concepts like counterpoint, polyphony etc.

 
Hughes, you're a tricky feller. These things are extremely misleading. If you have a good understanding of modes and counterpoint, polyphony, it means you've had a significant amount of formal training on some instrument (Piano????) or at minimum many hours of self-study from formal materials. No beginner is going to be able to learn complex music completely "by ear." Readily available video has made self-study better than ever because you get closeups of good teachers hands and you can rewind and really study it. Some of them are better than the many lessons I had in terms of basic technique. (There's this complete redneck who actually has some very good free youtube videos that involve how you hold the pick and economy of motion)
 
 
It's hard because there are terrible teachers out there, terrible videos out there, and really good example of both. I suggest learning from every possible place you can.
 
Here's my favorite story about guitarists. Randy Rhoads used to find a local guitar store at every town they entered to get a lesson. Rhoads was not only obviously better than half of the teachers in technique, but he was also a good teacher (his mom ran a music store herself). Half the time Randy would end up giving the lesson, but almost every time he'd end up adding a little something to his store of knowledge. That's been my example.


Edited by Negoba - February 02 2009 at 09:10
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2009 at 09:51
http://justinguitar.com/ gives really good lessons on basics. Things like proper handeling of the guitar, ways of positioning your body as you play so that you won't strain yourself, all the major chords, some easy song lessons, etc.
 
From there you could go in many directions, but personally I feel that Victor Wooten was on to something when he used speech as an example when it came to learing music: we learn to speak by being around other people who speak fluently, then we slowly start to mimic, and ultimately we pick it up. Yet, even when we are in our thirties or fourties we still are constantly learning new things about our language.
 
Basically what he was saying is that you should jump into music right away and just start messing around with your instrument, then after you've become used to the feel of things, you will gradually and naturally hone your skills.
 
Don't sweat it: there is no wrong way to play guitar. People who tell you that are just pompous. Certainly, there are certain ways to go about it that will benefit you, but after you reacha  certain level of learning, you begin to take control and customize your own approach at the instrument.
 
Many many rock guitarists do it this way. Some examples of completely self-taught (or informally taught) guitarists:
 
Dave Mustaine
Alexi Laiho
Adam Jones
Steve Wilson
Paul McCartney
George Harrison
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Jimmi Hendrix
Esteban Echeverría
BB King
Carlos Santana
Steve Howe
Dave Gilmour
 
Just off the top of my head.
 
Personally I think music theory is unnecessary when it comes to creative songwriting and playing ability. Some of the greatest musicians alive didn't know squat about formal music theory, yet the wrote very complex and unusual music that became quite memorable. I would say that their lack of proper training was in fact what helped them break all of the new ground they did; since they didn't know what the 'proper' way to write a song was, they simply wrote what sounded good to them.
 


Edited by p0mt3 - February 02 2009 at 09:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2009 at 09:52
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I've never had a single guitar lesson in my life, but I can play Buckethead and Opeth songs note for note, learning purely by ear and never using tablature, if that is worth anything.
I can sight read, albeit at a very low level and I have a very good understanding of modes too, as well as concepts like counterpoint, polyphony etc.

 
Hughes, you're a tricky feller. These things are extremely misleading. If you have a good understanding of modes and counterpoint, polyphony, it means you've had a significant amount of formal training on some instrument (Piano????) or at minimum many hours of self-study from formal materials. No beginner is going to be able to learn complex music completely "by ear." Readily available video has made self-study better than ever because you get closeups of good teachers hands and you can rewind and really study it. Some of them are better than the many lessons I had in terms of basic technique. (There's this complete redneck who actually has some very good free youtube videos that involve how you hold the pick and economy of motion)
 
 
It's hard because there are terrible teachers out there, terrible videos out there, and really good example of both. I suggest learning from every possible place you can.
 
Here's my favorite story about guitarists. Randy Rhoads used to find a local guitar store at every town they entered to get a lesson. Rhoads was not only obviously better than half of the teachers in technique, but he was also a good teacher (his mom ran a music store herself). Half the time Randy would end up giving the lesson, but almost every time he'd end up adding a little something to his store of knowledge. That's been my example.
 
Now THAT is bloody brilliant!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 02:25
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I've never had a single guitar lesson in my life, but I can play Buckethead and Opeth songs note for note, learning purely by ear and never using tablature, if that is worth anything.
I can sight read, albeit at a very low level and I have a very good understanding of modes too, as well as concepts like counterpoint, polyphony etc.

 
Hughes, you're a tricky feller. These things are extremely misleading. If you have a good understanding of modes and counterpoint, polyphony, it means you've had a significant amount of formal training on some instrument (Piano????) or at minimum many hours of self-study from formal materials. No beginner is going to be able to learn complex music completely "by ear." Readily available video has made self-study better than ever because you get closeups of good teachers hands and you can rewind and really study it. Some of them are better than the many lessons I had in terms of basic technique. (There's this complete redneck who actually has some very good free youtube videos that involve how you hold the pick and economy of motion)
 
 
It's hard because there are terrible teachers out there, terrible videos out there, and really good example of both. I suggest learning from every possible place you can.
 
Here's my favorite story about guitarists. Randy Rhoads used to find a local guitar store at every town they entered to get a lesson. Rhoads was not only obviously better than half of the teachers in technique, but he was also a good teacher (his mom ran a music store herself). Half the time Randy would end up giving the lesson, but almost every time he'd end up adding a little something to his store of knowledge. That's been my example.



Haha, I didn't learn theory by earLOL
Don't think you can just innately start playing arpeggios and think to yourself 'this is an arpeggio' without having read about it first, for example.
I've never had a guitar teacher and I've never been to a music school of any kind is what I meant.
I have studied theory using books of course (other I'd doubt I'd even know what modes or counterpoint even areLOL) and then devising my own study methods, but it's all been on my own without the aid of a music or guitar teacher.
There is nothing to say you't can learn things like counterpoint or modes by yourself because plenty of others have before and I'm just one of them that went it alone and used books to help me get there.
I couldn't play a piano to save my life, haha.
I'm no theory god, I honestly don't know any modes of the melodic minor yet (I only have a good grounding in the modes of the major scale) and only know one mode of the harmonic minor scale, the Phrygian Dominant, but that always seems to be that 'if you learn one mode of the harmonic minor scale, you learn that' mode:P
I know the Locrian mode, but I've had lots of trouble applying it in a way that sounds musical, it comes off too 'theoretical' sound if you get what I mean, but it seems I'm not the only one that has trouble with it.
It's not the theory that's the problem, I understand how it relates to the diminished chord and all, but if I try to improvise using Locrian, I just can't get it too sound good and flowing.  Something to work on I guess.

OH YES!
Randy Rhoads!
It's good to know other guys around PA apart from Atavachron (David) know who he is.
I bought the live Tribute album one day a few years back, having no idea what to expect and basically I was blown to pieces by Randy's playing.
He was one of the best guitarists of all time and to this day, Diary Of a Madman is one of my favorite albums. Excellent guitar work on that record, simply stunning.
I have a Guitar World Magazine issue from a few years ago, it had a transcribed lesson (as in, what he said was transcribed and the guitar stuff too). I could even tell from that, what a great guitar teacher he would have been.

Off topic, yes, but Randy deserves a mention now and then.



Edited by HughesJB4 - February 03 2009 at 02:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 02:34
we miss you Randy



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 05:58
As a part-time-teacher, and taught by a really good teacher, I can say it usually is worth it taking two or three lessons at least, if you're serious. But at first your teacher should ask you to play some songs on the stereo to make up your mind on what you want to play. Some, like Guitar Pro here work pretty fine learning what Harry here does pretty well par exemple, but I'd hate to see you learn jazz through that. I teach spanish guitar and classical picking, but at times do rock/funk with the el. -guitar, Not really shredding, that's a nother art.
 
I know of a guy who took classes for 2 years, knew how to shred, but would only repeat the patterns he got from Yngwie videos, the ones his teacher taught him. Then he changed to the same as I did, and said he learnt twice as much in 6 months than he had. So in the end it's not all just techinque. I use the www.free-scores.org to pick up songs. There you have a pretty good distinction between difficult and easy songs, from bossa nova to baroque. No heavy rock though.
 
Also, I'd like to add, that in case you'd wish to find Guitar Pro tabs, which can be pretty good at times, most often actually, but you DON'T want to steal the program, you might want to try www.tuxguitar.com.ar/ It's pretty nifty, though lacks soundfonts, which is what people like about GP5. Anyway, Tuxguitar is an open source program, so it's modifyable, and it opens both GuitarPro and PowerTab files. And it's free. So, if you were like me, you'd get that instead of Guitar Pro.
 
Also, I'm not selling myself here, but it's nice to share info and opnions, so if there's any questions, just pm me or ask here and start an argument with old-school guitarists and shredders
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 07:29

Randy Rhoads Tribute is one of the greatest guitar albums of all time. I literally learned to play ever single note including the Suicide Solution solo back in my time. The biggest knock on my playing was that I was Randy clone. (of course so was Dweezil Zappa and he's turned out alright) Buy the tab book online, I'm sure it's still available.

And though the solo spot on SS is the most impressive, the composed solo for Mr. Crowley is probably the most instructive. Probably Randy's greatest piece. If you watch video of subsequent guitarist playing with Ozzy, they almost always futz with his solos except for that piece which, most like prog, is considered a composed part of the music. BTW, guitarists, the organ part for Mr. Crowley is butt easy and fun to play (on piano / organ.) "Dee" is also a nice introduction to playing classical. That tab book was an education on its own for me and I've taken alot of lessons.
 
I also highly recommend the tab book for "Surfing with the Alien" when you get to the next level.


Edited by Negoba - February 03 2009 at 09:14
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 09:11
To answer the first poster, if you're going to try to learn on your own, there are certain steps and stages to move through. I had a few teachers who would just ask what songs I wanted to learn and then they'd teach me. That was almost useless. My best teacher had a program of finger exercises that were assigned each week and then we'd have a song I was working on IN ITS ENTIRETY. At that stage we worked on alot of Hendrix and Angus Young, but really for tone, vibrato, and execution as the solos themselves weren't all that fast or tricky. And we often practiced without amps or on clean.
 
I'd actually be happy to help out with some ideas if you have some specifics about where you're at and what your tastes are.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 09:12
Ahh guitarists and their precious modes.  No one else wastes more than a few days on them except guitarists (and I unfortunately must include myself here)  who insist on spending years discovering how truly useless most of them really are. 

Whether you learn music theory on your own or from a teacher will depend on how you (as an individual) learn best.  Some of us need a kick in the pants, or the pressure of an upcoming lesson to keep our noses to the grindstone, others are more self-motivated.  But keep in mind that the minute you learn how to play a G chord you've learned a piece of music theory.  When you figure out that G, C, & D go together really well, you've learned more theory.  When you figure out why the drummer clicks his sticks 4 times before you all start playing you've got a bit more.  The notion that you can "mess around and let your feelings guide you" is just a pile of crap.  What you actually do as you mess around is learn theory, whether you decide to call it that or not.

I feel some obligation to insert here a proper description of what music theory really is, before someone goes off on "composing according to rules" etc.  Music theory has never been (apart from some serilaists of the 1950s and 1960s) a set of rules for what you can and can't do.  What music theory is, is a description of what composers have already done, and what was generally accepted to have "sounded good" to that particular generation of composers.  That's why it keeps changing.

As an example (as well as an interesting story), during the Baroque Era (1600-1750) it was generally accepted that you should not write diminished fifths in music.  It's a very dissonant interval (the opening notes of "Black Sabbath" if I remember an example) and folks thought is sounded so bad they nick-named it "the devil in music".  Now Antonio Vivaldi, as a Baroque composer knew this and like other composers of his time avoided that interval, but in the original handwritten manuscript of the Gloria of his Mass in D major there happens to be one.  Did he really mean for it to be there, or was it a mistake?  Most editors who print the score for sale "correct" this note because it is the only diminished fifth in all of Vivaldi's 600+ concertos and 40 operas AND its in a mass where you wouldn't, as a priest, stick "the devil in music".  They look at the practice of the time and understand howe unlikely it is that Vivaldi would not have done that on purpose.

No composer I have ever met thinks specifically about theory when writing music. It's not even discussed in formal composition lessons unless the student brings it up.   We use what we have learned in a subconscious way, or as Nero Wolfe puts it with "experience guided by intelligence".  If you want to learn to play the guitar, do it any way that works for you.  There are plenty of truly remarkable guitarists with horrible technique and little or no formal training.  But, if you want to learn about MUSIC, go to the local community college and take a couple of semesters of theory.  Under no circumstances should you trust a guitar teacher to teach you theory!!!!  They are, as a rule of thumb, the worst theorists in the known world.  It would be the equivalent of trying to get training as a gourmet chef from a McDonalds fry cook.   

Learning music theory will change the way you play, change the way you write, and even change the way you listen to music, and that will help you get where you want to go.  Music will open up like a flower in front of your eyes.

A flower?!....




Edited by Trademark - February 03 2009 at 09:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 09:42
^ I basically agree, but I think that taking guitar lesson is still very important in order to learn *how* to play properly. The guitar is not an easy instrument to play - at least if you want to master most of the various techniques. I learned both keyboard and guitar in my adolescence, and in retrospect I'm glad that I took professional lessons.

BTW: IMO modes do come in handy on the guitar. I'd suggest to any player to learn the diatonic modes and how to play them on the guitar in an efficient way. For example, if someone plays a major or minor chord, it's definitely good if you're able to play some stuff to that chord that "sounds good". Of course you can simply use your ears, but knowing the modes and how they translate to the fretboard (-> scales) can give you a big advantage. I don't even think that it's so much about theory - it's simply about knowing your fretboard.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - February 03 2009 at 10:03
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