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arcer
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 01 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 1239
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Topic: the world just gets weirder Posted: January 12 2005 at 15:34 |
oh boy....
THE BATTLE over attempts to introduce a version of creationism into the curriculum of American schools has become focused on a small town in Pennsylvania. Biology teachers at a high school in Dover have rejected the instructions of local officials to read a statement in class today questioning the theory of evolution. They had been ordered by the town’s elected school board to preface their usual class on evolution with a statement, saying “Darwin’s Theory is a theory ... not a fact. Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no evidence.” As an alternative, the statement mentions “intelligent design”, an updated form of creationism which argues that life on earth is too complex to have developed at random. The teachers asked to opt out of making the statement and it will be read instead by a school administrator before a biology class early next week. The Dover school board’s actions make the town the first in the US to promote “intelligent design” in competition to evolution. It has become the subject of a lawsuit by a group of parents that has pitted the Christian right against the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The case is due to be heard in the next few months. “Intelligent design is more than an attack on evolution. What these folks are proposing is to allow faith and miracles and supernatural creators to be considered as science,” the ACLU’s legal director in Pennsylvania, Witold Walczak, said. A supreme court decision in 1987 banned the teaching of creationism on the grounds that it would violate the separation of church and state. The Dover school board decision is one of a series of signs that the movement is making a comeback. Mr Walczak predicted that it would gather steam as Christian conservatives drew inspiration from President Bush’s re-election. A CBS/New York Times poll at the time of the election found 55% of Americans believed God created humans in their present form, 27% believed in evolution guided by God and only 13% believed God was not involved in human evolution. And 65% backed teaching creationism alongside evolution. The Dover school board and its supporters argue that “intelligent design” is not covered by the 1987 supreme court decision because it is not inherently religious, but a scientific challenge to Darwinism. “Religion has nothing to do with intelligent design,” said Carl Jarboe, a former chemistry professor and school board supporter. “I am alleging there is not one piece of scientific evidence that supports evolution."
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Velvetclown
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Points: 8548
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 17:20 |
Dark Ages here we come !!!!!!!
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tuxon
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Joined: September 21 2004
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Points: 5502
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:09 |
They might as well teach Tolkiens version of the creation of the world. Just as relevant.
Here's a summary of the creation theorie according to JRR Tolkien.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/camwyn/328358.html
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Reed Lover
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Location: Sao Tome and Pr
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:18 |
The problem is that these are not stupid people pushing this.Teachers,Lawyers, Doctors are all involved with "Intelligent Design", Politicians too.This heavyweight patronage gives such nonesense an air of acceptability and plausibility that would be laughed at in any other Western country.These "theories" would never have been promulgated had The Theory Of Evolution not been propounded.There is no precedent in the Bible for this "new theory".It exists purely as an alternative choice for choice's sake.If Darwen had never formulated his theory these people would still be peddling the Adam & Eve version of events.
Remember Pol Pot and Year Zero or the Taliban? This is what will happen in the USA over the next century unless the people of America start to contribute to the Political & Religious Debate in their country.

Edited by Reed Lover
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Metropolis
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Joined: December 20 2004
Location: Scotland
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Points: 760
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:22 |
Indeed, what a farce
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We Lost the Skyline............
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Glass-Prison
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Joined: February 08 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 453
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 19:34 |
I don't think the public schools should teach any theory that is not based in fact... it is merely teaching our children to accept faith as a reasonable method of logical deduction.
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Sun Tsu said: To fight and conquer in your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
Sun Tsu: The art of War
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Points: 19557
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:12 |
I have never participated in a religious thread because I believe the faith is personal, but as a lawyer I will give my opinion leaving behind my beliefs as a Catholic:
- Supreme Court didn't had the right to ban the theory of Creationism, because is a clear attempt to the freedom of faith and against the universalism in education.
- Creationism should be also mentioned in Biology class as the belief of a part of society, giving the facts, the opinions in favor and the opinions against that theory, but dogmas and the cults should not be included in a class of science or biology, only in a religion class.
- Religion and/or Theology should be taught as an elective course, because even if there's no prove that God exists there's nobody that can prove God doesn't exist either and Religion has been part of the history of USA and the whole world.
- The Atheism, Humanism, etc. should be also part of the studies for children in schools.
- If 82% of the people in USA believe that God has participated in any form in creation and/or evolution, it's also their right to see that their children receive this theory, but not to create a confrontation with other theories.
- All major religions should be represented in that elective course, not only one, calling experts or preachers to teach their beliefs.
- If any student or group of students want to express their beliefs without attacking any other belief, they should be allowed to do so, because this right is clearly stated in USA Constitution.
The problem of ACLU is that because of the feeling of guilt they have for all the crimes committed against minorities in the past they have created an inverse form of discrimination.
Institutions are forced to hire a certain percentage of personnel from minorities even if there are not enough qualified members of that minority. Because of abuses committed by police they are protecting more the rights of the criminal against the honest citizen or the policeman that receives the bullet protecting citizenship.
I know that there’s a lot of sexual abuse in work against women and I took some cases against companies where this happened, but a woman only needs to shout harassment and the guy is considered guilty or probably fired without having the chance to defend himself.
Because their fear for fundamentalism (well it also scares the $hit out of me) they protect the rights of the non-believer against the rights of the believer, when there should exist equivalence in this case.
I believe that if more than 80% of USA citizens believe in any form of Religion they have the same rights as the 18% who doesn’t believe, not more not less, exactly the same.
In Perú Religion is taught in public schools, in most of the cases Catholic Religion but the parents have the right to decide if their kids go to that class or not, I believe this is healthy.
This is my modest opinion.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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aqualung28
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Joined: December 03 2004
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Points: 916
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:18 |
They should teach both of them or teach none at all
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"O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love
'n you should have us all
O' you should have us fall"
"Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart
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aqualung28
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Points: 916
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:19 |
though I'm just fine learning Evolution
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"O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love
'n you should have us all
O' you should have us fall"
"Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart
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gdub411
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Joined: August 24 2004
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Points: 3484
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:48 |
aqualung28 wrote:
They should teach both of them or teach none at all
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 ...good call. It isn't right to teach children one without the other. It automatically will legitimize the Theory of Evolution since Creationism isn't taught in public schools. People should be able to hear both ends of the argument and decide which one they prefer.
I think Theory is the key word here. Neither one is based on hard evidence and one could poke holes in either one.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Points: 19557
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:58 |
Exactly, it's unfair to ban one and let the other theory, that was the whole point of my long post but Aqualung said it clerly in one phrase.
Iván
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gdub411
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Joined: August 24 2004
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Points: 3484
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 22:11 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Exactly, it's unfair to ban one and let the other theory, that was the whole point of my long post but Aqualung said it clerly in one phrase.
Iván
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sorry Ivan...I have this disability that doesn't let me read far into long posts. It's called impatience. ...I start to lose conscienceness.
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tuxon
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Joined: September 21 2004
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Points: 5502
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 22:21 |
The Darwin theory is not all proven (though IMO very accurate), the theory of intelligent design, however is completely unfounded. No proof other than speculation and man's inability to grasp the complexity of life.
It's to difficult to comprehend, therefor it has to be the act of a god
the Darwin evolution theory requeres no faith, basic understanding of cellular/moleculair biologie is all you need.
BTW. good post Ivan. but your post revolves around the right of religion, which is clear, but other religious interpretations of the origin of life should also be mentioned in biologie class, not just the intelligent design theory for that matter. Theological debate and teachings don't belong in a biologieclass, nor in a scienceclass or topographic-class. these discussions, interpreting the science in a religious context should be held in theological classes.
Edited by tuxon
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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gdub411
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 22:32 |
tuxon wrote:
The Darwin theory is not all proven (though IMO very accurate), the theory of intelligent design, however is completely unfounded. No proof other than speculation and man's inability to grasp the complexity of life.
It's to difficult to comprehend, therefor it has to be the act of a god
the Darwin evolution theory requeres no faith, basic understanding of cellular/moleculair biologie is all you need.
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Yes, but I find it just as much a leap of faith to accept evolution. I mean life evolving from a simple organism to something as miraculous and complex as the human body is a stretch of logic. How incredibly lucky!! I mean one would have a better chance to win the lottery a thousand times over than to accept that a single celled organism developed into something as wonderous and complex as humanity.
and, perhaps it did....with a little nudge from God.
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tuxon
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Posted: January 12 2005 at 22:59 |
Law of the numbers.
The Universe is infinitly great, with infinite stars, with infinite planets which could contain life.
Add to that the buildingblocks of life (which is for all we know organic-matter), there is proof of organic molecules being the residual trash from emerging or dying stars.
So there's bound to (0.0000000001% of infinitive is infinitive) be an infinitive number of Life-sustainable planets, with all the right ingredients for life to begin.
One of Men's flaws is, we think we are ment to be, or how can it be possible that we exist, for the odds of us existing is 1 in a zillion, but we forget, we are one of the possible products to come out of this chance.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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James Lee
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Posted: January 13 2005 at 02:07 |
Whatever the merits of the individual theories, public schools are an instituation funded by various sources, and those sources have the option of dictating curriculum or removing their support. In many cases, the funding comes from the taxpayers...and if a majority of the taxpayers in a given region believe that a giant purple aardvark belched out the world, then the schools may be told to teach that. That's democracy...
Intelligent Design has a number of rather obvious flaws, not least of which is the fact that human beings are designed pretty inefficiently- but it must be remembered that Evolution is also a theory, rather than an incontrovertible fact. The very nature of change over milennia makes it very difficult to say anything for certain about development.
I tend to lean towards Evolutionary Theory because it fully accepts the influence of random chance...which is really the only way to account for the numerous evolutionary mis-steps and cul-de-sacs (that would at the very least embarrass the heck out of a designer).
Until a better theory comes along, it seems to me to be about the best we've come up with. I see no reason not to present the alternative as well...the good ol' "Some people believe ______" seemed to work pretty well for most of my teachers.
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Syzygy
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Points: 7003
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Posted: January 13 2005 at 03:24 |
I have no problem with the first half of the statement - evolution is a theory, and one which is not fully proven by empirical data. The available evidence tends to support it, but my belief in it is based on intuition and faith.
As for the argument for intelligent design - Charles Darwin was himself an ordained clergyman who was able to reconcile a faith in God with evolution. His real problem with his theory was that natural selection could be used to argue against the idea that all men are created equal, something Darwin passionately believed in. Darwin was not a creationist, but would have supported intelligent design.
A surprising number of leading scientists have also been able to reconcile their spiritual beliefs with hard science, among them Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking, and many leading theologians have been able to accommodate evolution and the big bang theory with their beliefs.
The point is that it is perfectly possible for science and religion to co exist in any education system. It is impossible, however for creationism to exist alongside science, open mindedness, tolerance or sanity. This kind of blinkered fanaticism is dangerous anywhere, and is positively poisonous in schools.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Pixel Pirate
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Joined: September 11 2004
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 793
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Posted: January 13 2005 at 05:35 |
One scientific fact: Humans have 98% of our genetic material in common with chimpanzees. Not only is that a good explanation as to why 98% of mankind are complete idiots but it's also a very good point in favour of evolution,since there's no way it could be a coincidence. As far as I know,there's still no evidence whatsoever for the theory that life started because some guy in a white beard snapped his fingers. Remind me again: Which century is this? The 12th?!
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
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Velvetclown
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Joined: February 13 2004
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Points: 8548
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Posted: January 13 2005 at 05:50 |
It´s the century in which the Elephant still can´t play the guitar !!!!!!!
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Velvetclown
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Joined: February 13 2004
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Points: 8548
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Posted: January 13 2005 at 05:51 |
You found God? If nobody claims him in 30 days, he's yours!
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