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Topic: Question about time signatures...
Posted: November 03 2005 at 18:25

... or whatever.

I've never played in a band at school or anything so I'm not sure what the differences between different things like 4/4 or 7/8 are. Is there a good place to read up on it?

Also, are things like 7/8 hard to play or is ut the transitions between different times that make it hard?

Thanks.

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Posted: November 03 2005 at 18:35

I've been making it my duty to absorb as many time signatures as possible. I'll now sit down with an instrument and start playing in 5/4, 11/8, 13/8, and 7/8 just as likely as I would play in 4/4. You just tap out the time. You can usually feel the divisions, it just comes to you. They really aren't hard. Harder is shifting meter, virtually impossible to follow even for a seasoned time tapper. Only by slowing it down and building from square one can you figure those out.

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Posted: November 03 2005 at 18:40

4/4 = four beats per measure, and the quarter note gets the beat. It's a whole lot easier if your in band to understand musical structure. I recomend you study some music theory, there are classes for it in school. Trust me, music is much more entertaining when you can tell what is going on in it.

Once you understand music structure try getting into an instrument you find the most interesting and can enjoy music even more, it's so awsome to hear a keyboard solo and being able to tell what most of the notes are, it gets you involved in the music more.

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Posted: November 04 2005 at 04:20

There's no simple way to explain time signatures. It's actually not complicated at all, it's just trying to understand it (because it's tricky to explain) that's the hard part. Once you understand what the numbers mean - how they relate to the note values and the beat, you're laughing because it's so easy from there.

The trickiest part is getting your head around it in the beginning. The vocalist for my band knows nothing about music theory and just trying to teach him the basics i've written up 7 pages worth of material, and i'm not yet done. I'm sure there are web pages out there that can help you out. Good luck!

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Posted: November 04 2005 at 04:28

The easiest way to play 7/8 to begin with is to imagine it's 4/4 with half a beat missing. I don't know how constructive that is in the long-term, though.

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Posted: November 04 2005 at 04:38

I think it'd be better to imagine 7/8 as 6/8 + 1/3 beat...

Basically there are 2 types of time signature:

Simple
Compound

Simple time (simplified ) is anything over 4, because that's the number of beats you count in a bar.

With time signatures greater than 4/4, it's a matter of breaking it down into 2s, 3s and 4s, so 11/4 could be 4+4+3/4, 3+3+3+2/4 and so on.

Compound time is best considered in terms of anything over 8 - but obviously there's more to it.

Consider 6/8 time. It has 2 dotted crotchet beats to the bar, with quaver movement akin to triplets, but not playing "against the grain" - thus achieving a smoother sound, widely considered to be "Pastoral" in feel.

This is what is compound about it - you can count both the number of quavers and the number of dotted crotchet beats that underly the rhythm.

Hence 7/8 time should be 2 dotted crotchets + 1 quaver. If there's more of a 4+3 feel to the underlying beat, then chances are it's actually in 7/4.

I hope that clarifies it

Edited by Certif1ed

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Posted: November 04 2005 at 15:22

Something I read on a music theory site some time ago really helped me in this regard. As Certif1ed just explained, it pretty much comes down to 2's and 3's. Whatever else is done rhythmically, groupings can always be dvided into these short and long pulses. For instance, the most basic, quarter-note based rhythm could be felt as

DA-da-DA-da-DA-da-DA-da

or ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR-and, etc.

This 4/4 meter uses "2's" exclusively, groupings of two eighth notes, 2+2+2+2. The only pulse here is one felt as a succession of two eighth notes. Alternatively, a 4/4 meter might use a combination of 2's and 3's.

DA-da-da-DA-da-da-DA-da

or ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six-SEVEN-eight.

Two long pulses are followed by a short one, 3+3+2.

To evince alternate time signatures, one would merely group the eight notes appropriately. For instance, 5/8 could be felt as

DA-da-DA-da-da-DA-da-DA-da-da

or ONE-two-THREE-four-five-ONE-two-THREE-four-five.

This pattern of 2+3 is felt repeatedly, creating a five feel.

As for the notion of shifting meters, it's largely a relative one. For instance, my friend might perceive a sequence as being composed of bars of 5/4, 3/8, and 7/8. I might perceive it as two bars of 10/8. This largely doesn't matter, as long as we both recognize those elementary pulses I've been discussing, those 2's and 3's.

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Posted: November 04 2005 at 15:28

Certif1ed wrote:

I think it'd be better to imagine 7/8 as 6/8 + 1/3 beat...

For most situations it is more appropriate to see it as 8/8 - 1/8, wouldn't you think?

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Posted: November 04 2005 at 18:44

My understanding- and this could be wrong- is two different varieties, simple and compound time.

Simple time can be basically read out from the time signature. Top number is the number of beats in a measure, bottom number is the note that equals one beat. eg. 5/4 five beats each of a quarter note. 7/8 seven beats each of an eighth note. Therefore read out the top number for the beats. Imagine the bottom number with a 1 over the top and name the fraction for the beat value. These fraction names equate to the common names of the notes. In this manner it is much easier to use common note names, not the latin, eg, crotchet as to quarter note.

Compound time uses a compound note as the beat value and is only any time signature with a number on the top that is divisible by three ([edit] but the top number is not 3 ie 3/4 is simple time). Compound means it is two note values that make the beat, that being a note and a dot (the dot adds half the length of the note to it, so a dotted quarter in 4/4 equals 1 beat plus half a beat). So, in 6/8, because the top number is divisble by three, we know it is compound time. To work it out a little simple maths is needed.

divide the top number by three to get the beats- so in 6/8 there are two beats.
to get the note value of the beat, divide the bottom number by two- in 6/8 this will equal 4
imagine a one over the four to get the fraction and it is a quarter note
add a dot to the note and you have a dotted quarter note as the beat value.

So 6/8 has 2 beats each of a dotted quarter note.

If you look at manuscript of compound time, in a lot of the cases you will see the notes grouped in the beat value breakdown

Edited by cobb

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Posted: November 04 2005 at 20:22

Certif1ed wrote:

I think it'd be better to imagine 7/8 as 6/8 + 1/3 beat...

Basically there are 2 types of time signature:

Simple
Compound

Simple time (simplified ) is anything over 4, because that's the number of beats you count in a bar.

With time signatures greater than 4/4, it's a matter of breaking it down into 2s, 3s and 4s, so 11/4 could be 4+4+3/4, 3+3+3+2/4 and so on.

Compound time is best considered in terms of anything over 8 - but obviously there's more to it.

This is what is compound about it - you can count both the number of quavers and the number of dotted crotchet beats that underly the rhythm.

Hence 7/8 time should be 2 dotted crotchets + 1 quaver. If there's more of a 4+3 feel to the underlying beat, then chances are it's actually in 7/4.

I hope that clarifies it

That clears it right up. I thought I understood time signatures until I read that.

God only knows how a novice would feel.

I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

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Posted: November 04 2005 at 21:18

I always think of 7/8 as One two One t/ One two One t/, like in UK's "In the Dead of Night" and Chris Squire's "Lucky Seven". It's like 4/4 but with a half beat at the end. Either that or One two three four one two three. Really very simple, but I found it hard at first to comprehend how you tell where a measure "sits" in the piece of music. It just "comes" to you.

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Posted: November 05 2005 at 03:13

penguindf12 wrote:

I always think of 7/8 as One two One t/ One two One t/, like in UK's "In the Dead of Night" and Chris Squire's "Lucky Seven". It's like 4/4 but with a half beat at the end. Either that or One two three four one two three. Really very simple, but I found it hard at first to comprehend how you tell where a measure "sits" in the piece of music. It just "comes" to you.

If you count like that and it really fits, it might be a 7/4, seen as 4/4 + 3/4. Check where the bass and snare drum are ... that also helps to make that determination. Below are two examples:

7/8:

b s b s
1 + 2 + 3 + 4

7/4:

b s b s b s b
1 2 3 4 1 2 3

Edited by MikeEnRegalia

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Posted: November 05 2005 at 07:32

Balder wrote:

Something I read on a music theory site some time ago really helped me in this regard. As Certif1ed just explained, it pretty much comes down to 2's and 3's. Whatever else is done rhythmically, groupings can always be dvided into these short and long pulses. For instance, the most basic, quarter-note based rhythm could be felt as

DA-da-DA-da-DA-da-DA-da

or ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR-and, etc.

This 4/4 meter uses "2's" exclusively, groupings of two eighth notes, 2+2+2+2. The only pulse here is one felt as a succession of two eighth notes. Alternatively, a 4/4 meter might use a combination of 2's and 3's.

DA-da-da-DA-da-da-DA-da

or ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six-SEVEN-eight.

Two long pulses are followed by a short one, 3+3+2.

To evince alternate time signatures, one would merely group the eight notes appropriately. For instance, 5/8 could be felt as

DA-da-DA-da-da-DA-da-DA-da-da

or ONE-two-THREE-four-five-ONE-two-THREE-four-five.

This pattern of 2+3 is felt repeatedly, creating a five feel.

As for the notion of shifting meters, it's largely a relative one. For instance, my friend might perceive a sequence as being composed of bars of 5/4, 3/8, and 7/8. I might perceive it as two bars of 10/8. This largely doesn't matter, as long as we both recognize those elementary pulses I've been discussing, those 2's and 3's.

This thread is very interesting, I'm self taught and time signatures have always been my weak point.

Would you guys agree that the above post is correct because it seems the simplist to understand for me, so before I start applying I'd like to know it works.

Also there a couple of tracks mentioned as examples of 7/8 time but then doubt was cast on wether or not they are 7/8.

Is there one or more deffinate 7/8 tracks I could listen to as example's?

Cheers

Humanism

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Posted: November 05 2005 at 13:35

Definitely 7/8: "In the Dead of Night" by UK, used to be downloadable here. "Lucky Seven", by Chris Squire. "Dance on a Volcano," Genesis. The middlesection instrumental synth (then bass) part of Rush's "Tom Sawyer".

Could be 7/8 or 7/4: most of "The Battle of Epping Forest", the "fast section" of Genesis' "Cinema Show", "Back in NYC" also by Genesis; "Money" by Pink Floyd; "The Fish", the "stereo panning" section of "Perptual Change", and the opening part of "The Remembering" by Yes; and lots of other stuff I can't think of right now, plus a lot of songs that have just bits and pieces of seven.

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Posted: November 05 2005 at 15:47

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

I think it'd be better to imagine 7/8 as 6/8 + 1/3 beat...

For most situations it is more appropriate to see it as 8/8 - 1/8, wouldn't you think?

No - I don't think that's useful, because 7/8 is generally compound, not simple time.

It's very straightforward really;

Simple time = the number of beats in a bar over the type of note used to denote the beat.

So 4/4 is 4 1/4 notes (crotchets) in a bar.

Compound time is the number of notes in a bar over the type of note used, but the notes are usually grouped in 3s to form beats that are equal in length to 3 of that note type.

So 6/8 is 2 groups of 3 quavers - or two dotted crotchet beats per bar.

There is a 3rd category, which is really an extension of Compound time, and that is Irregular time - but it's not often used. 7/8 would fit that category, and a composer could interpret it as he/she wishes.

However, 7/4 is normally 7 crotchet beats in a bar - so you could think of that as 8 - 1 if it helps. I think that to break it into 2s, 3s, or 4s is easier.

7/8 is more normally compound/irregular time, so it's 2 dotted crotchets +1 quaver, or 2 1/3 beats per bar.

If any single point is confusing, I'm more than happy to break it down as much as necessary. It's really not hard.

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Posted: November 06 2005 at 00:47

before this I started this thread I knew how to count/ read time signatures, but now I'm completely confused.

Next time I count out a song to find the time I'll be using 10 different methods at once

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Posted: November 06 2005 at 03:39

Certif1ed wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

I think it'd be better to imagine 7/8 as 6/8 + 1/3 beat...

For most situations it is more appropriate to see it as 8/8 - 1/8, wouldn't you think?

No - I don't think that's useful, because 7/8 is generally compound, not simple time.

It's very straightforward really;

Simple time = the number of beats in a bar over the type of note used to denote the beat.

So 4/4 is 4 1/4 notes (crotchets) in a bar.

Compound time is the number of notes in a bar over the type of note used, but the notes are usually grouped in 3s to form beats that are equal in length to 3 of that note type.

So 6/8 is 2 groups of 3 quavers - or two dotted crotchet beats per bar.

However, 7/4 is normally 7 crotchet beats in a bar - so you could think of that as 8 - 1 if it helps. I think that to break it into 2s, 3s, or 4s is easier.

7/8 is more normally compound/irregular time, so it's 2 dotted crotchets +1 quaver, or 2 1/3 beats per bar.

If any single point is confusing, I'm more than happy to break it down as much as necessary. It's really not hard.

As I said in an earlier post - you might define crotchet and quaver for a start. In Germany we call it 4ths, 8ths, 8th triplets, 16ths ... that is a lot less confusing. Also, someone without a musical background might not even understand the concept of a "dotted" note at all (I do).

About the 7/8: A LOT of prog bands use that signature like I described. They simply "merge" the last 8th of the bar with the first note of the following bar. One 8th is simply skipped, and the simplest way to count is this (speak + as "and"):

4/4: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + ...
7/8: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ...
7/4: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 ... (if bass and snare suggest that the first 4 beats are 4/4 - Example: Pink Floyd - Money)

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Posted: November 06 2005 at 08:30

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I think that's even more confusing - why would a time signature only be 3/4? 3/4 of what?

If I was giving a full course on music theory, then yes, I would have started by saying that a Semibreve is slightly confusingly called a whole note, a Minim is called a half note, a Crotchet a quarter note and so on, and that a dot adds half the notes' value. Again, I'm happy to expand on any of this, or point people to this website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/music/musicaleleme nts/rhythmandmetrerev3.shtml

I don't think either system is less confusing - but there are names for the note types, so that is what I think is most helpful, it is the one I was trained with, and hence the one I use.

(...)

7/8: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ...
(...)

That's an incorrect use of 7/8.

I would doubt that any bands use 7/8 in this way in reality - it's probably just lack of musical education that makes them think it's 7/8 because they think there are 7 quavers in a bar.

Quavers are almost never used as beats, even though there's no real reason except for tradition that they shouldn't. The best way to illustrate this is through an example;

Stravinsky got around this in "Le Sacre du Printemps" by inserting bars of 2/8, 3/16 and 4/8 and so on. I'd recommend getting a score (and recording) of this amazing work if you think you understand time signatures - if you don't know it, it'll blow you away!!!

When Stravinsky used bars of 7/8 (e.g. in bar 5 of "Glorification de l'Elue"), he included the "stray" quaver with the first group of three quavers, accenting 2, 4 and 6 for syncopation, but ending up with a slightly off-beat 6/8 feel - as is correct.

To clarify the difference, simply look in bar 8 of the same section, where he uses 7/4 correctly - although in his usual highly syncopated way.

7 over anything is irregular time, 7/4 is irregular simple time and 7/8 is irregular compound time - those are the rules and I didn't write them .

Edited by Certif1ed

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Posted: November 06 2005 at 15:47

penguindf12 wrote:

Cheers...
I never realised I have been listening to 7/8 or 7/4 pieces for so many years

Humanism

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Posted: November 06 2005 at 17:48

Certif1ed wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I think that's even more confusing - why would a time signature only be 3/4? 3/4 of what?

Now you're talking ... 1/1 = Semibreve, 1/2 = Minim, 1/4 = Crotchet etc.. Your 3/4 argument is a little confusing - 3/4 beats are three crotchets, what's the deal?

I don't think either system is less confusing - but there are names for the note types, so that is what I think is most helpful, it is the one I was trained with, and hence the one I use.

Use whatever you see fit ... I just like the mathematical approach of 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc.

(...)

7/8: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ...
(...)

That's an incorrect use of 7/8.

Says who?

I would doubt that any bands use 7/8 in this way in reality - it's probably just lack of musical education that makes them think it's 7/8 because they think there are 7 quavers in a bar.

You sound like an arrogant 60 years old professor. Many prog metal / Jazz Fusion / Symphonic Prog bands use it just that way. I'm fully prepared to give you as many examples as you need.

Quavers are almost never used as beats, even though there's no real reason except for tradition that they shouldn't. The best way to illustrate this is through an example;

What is a quaver?

Whatever.

To clarify the difference, simply look in bar 8 of the same section, where he uses 7/4 correctly - although in his usual highly syncopated way.

A really simple example seems to be in order.

7 over anything is irregular time, 7/4 is irregular simple time and 7/8 is irregular compound time - those are the rules and I didn't write them .

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