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the term "crossover prog"
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mathman0806 View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 04 2018 at 11:34
Something I have been wondering for awhile: Where did the term "crossover prog" come from? And does this term get used outside of Progarchives?

Until I went onto Progarchives, I am fairly certain I had not heard of the term before. I get from reading the description that for prog (on this site) it means to 'crossover' into popular music influences, though it also includes bands that 'crossover' into alternative rock or other commercial brands of music. For whatever reason, the term bothers me. Maybe it's because I usually think of the word crossover in terms of basketball, not prog.  
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I'd take a wild guess that before coming to PA you never heard of Indo-Prog/Raga Rock either LOL
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mathman0806 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

I'd take a wild guess that before coming to PA you never heard of Indo-Prog/Raga Rock either LOL

You are correct. Thumbs Up
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I think the term "crossover" has something to do with Rick Wakeman's capes.
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Points: 166178 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2018 at 13:48
I believe the old art rock team made it up when they split the old art rock category (as well as Eclectic and Heavy). The only use I've seen of it outside PA is by people who are on PA.
 
And for labels, I think the important thing is to focus on what the label means as oppose to what the label is. (Which you've got the right idea of it btw)
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So, you're puzzled with that "crossover prog" label? Only that one? Nothing to say about "eclectic prog", "prog related", "heavy prog" or "proto-prog" (okay, this one may be recognized as a "legitimate" label, but it's not like it is a genre per se).

That "crossover prog" thing, just like explained by Man With That, results from the splitting of the Art Rock category in the PA database, and that's all about it: it's not a term used by anyone out of PA, because it's a convenient way of categorizing groups and artists for PA, even if one can doubt of its reliability from a musicological point of view (on the other hand, RIO is used as a musical category by some and... well, listen to the RIO musicians for yourself and take your conclusions!)
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Points: 13352 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2018 at 14:41
I think all labels as proto prog, crossover prog, prog related, etc, are meant to include most of the bands of the late sixties and early seventies that were liked by prog fans of those days. I personally gave up the labels long time ago, including "prog". If I like the music, I'll listen to it, no matter the label, and forget about classifications, labeling, etc.  
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Crossover was always a generic, ambiguous title meant to sound like there's more depth to a genre than there really is.

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^ No, on this site it's a carefully considered term for prog rock that crosses into pop.
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Points: 2186 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kev rowland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2018 at 18:42
I also hadn't heard of the term before I joined the site, but must confess that this sub genre makes a lot of sense to me. I was in the Crossover team for quite a while, and as Atavachron says, it is a carefully considered term - have a look at the genre page to understand more. It isn't a dumping ground for bands that don't fit in other sub genres, but is a valid entity in its own right 

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Points: 6421 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mathman0806 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2018 at 19:04
When it comes to labeling, I do find that it is occasionally useful to when looking for music I haven't heard of. I don't really label what I like to listen to since I like a little bit of every type. But, my main reason for popping on to this site is to find some unknown (to me) music to listen to, so when reading reviews, it is useful to see how a band is categorized even if it doesn't always accurately reflect the album since some bands change.

Given the origins, I am curious if anyone knows some of the labels that were rejected along the way before settling on crossover. For example, was "pop prog" or "alt prog" or "hummable prog" considered? Is there thread for rejected prog categories?
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Points: 1662 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tempest_77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2018 at 06:48
Not really rejected, but there used to be a category simply dubbed "art rock" that included a lot of crossover prog and prog related bands.
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Points: 86 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lamneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2018 at 11:03
I suggest changing it to "Not Prog but Still Cool" which is pretty much what the term seems to mean.
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Points: 20623 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2018 at 15:46
^ LOL......that might actually work.
Many of the bands listed here under prog related, crossover, and even heavy prog could all easily fit under the same roof.
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Points: 46833 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2018 at 17:07
Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:


Given the origins, I am curious if anyone knows some of the labels that were rejected along the way before settling on crossover. For example, was "pop prog" or "alt prog" or "hummable prog" considered? Is there thread for rejected prog categories?

Well that would be one for me. It was my baby though not without the help of rest of the baddest bunch of musicologists, rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, sh*t-kickers and Methodists that this site ever saw.  We were the ones that evaluated the sh*t show that was the old Art Rock grouping that had been a dumping ground of musically dissimilar groups.  We evaluated every single one of them,  think it was around 800 IICC David?

What we found was most broke into 3 groups.  I took an interest in the more poppish one,  and being a huge fan, probably more than prog itself, of old school country music The term Crossover, used many times throughout music to note bands that mix or achives pop crossover though decidely un pop themselves.

it was a natural There was no 2nd choice. While RPI was my baby and I had to fight a battle few of you understand to get it approved here,  Crossover does have a place in my heart everytime I see bands outside this side call themselves 'crossover prog'  This site once had a profound influence on modern prog, a large part of that due to we once had smart people who knew music and prog here.  

so that is the short story.
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mathman0806 View Drop Down
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Points: 6421 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mathman0806 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 05:12
Thanks Mickey for sharing. Nice achievement to have coined the term.
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Points: 4462 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 11:25
Maybe they should just have a category called" Kinda- Sorta Proggy" and leave it at that.Wink

Edited by Argo2112 - July 06 2018 at 11:26
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

We evaluated every single one of them,  think it was around 800 IICC David?

At least.
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Points: 9233 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2018 at 02:16
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ No, on this site it's a carefully considered term for prog rock that crosses into pop.


Which I'm glad for, because everyone else has their own definition because it's such a general term.

Quote "Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk. "

Serious question, though; if prog and jazz meet, isn't it jazz fusion? I guess where I get a bit confused is (I'm assuming here) one starts as a prog base and adds X, where as fusion usually starts with a jazz base and mixes in rock, etc? Just looking for a little clarity.

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Points: 1662 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tempest_77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2018 at 06:34
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ No, on this site it's a carefully considered term for prog rock that crosses into pop.


Which I'm glad for, because everyone else has their own definition because it's such a general term.

Quote "Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk. "

Serious question, though; if prog and jazz meet, isn't it jazz fusion? I guess where I get a bit confused is (I'm assuming here) one starts as a prog base and adds X, where as fusion usually starts with a jazz base and mixes in rock, etc? Just looking for a little clarity.

It's not phrased perfectly, but I think that it's saying that classical, jazz, and folk are more inherent or traditional prog influences, and that crossover prog bands often can have a significant influence from mainstream music in addition to those genres.
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