| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Surrealist 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
|
 Posted: January 04 2013 at 03:53 |
|
I don't know if there are any totally original avenues left in music.
I don't think the instrumentation needs to change... there are a lot of time tested great sounding instruments to play upon.. but the style and approach to composing prog... lot's of room to find originality.
While I agree not much is totally original from top to bottom.. but I think there is a lot to explore in odd time signatures and polymetering... combine that with alternate tunings and do away with typical song structure and you would be into some fairly uncharted waters.
At this point in time.. I think it would be original to scrap computer recording and go back to tape machines. Release only on vinyl and say no to itunes.
Why do what everyone else is doing?
Look in the mirror each morning upon rising and say to yourself...
I am not a digital sheep.
|
 |
Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 04:12 |
Any album released only on vinyl will be an album I will never hear. And it widely true I believe. Commercial suicide before you start.
The music you laud from the seventies were doing what everyone else waas doing. I don't remember any albums on wax cylinder.
Edited by Snow Dog - January 04 2013 at 04:13
|
|
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 05:27 |
 Surrealist wrote:
|
Ironically, while you despise modern technology it is perhaps technology which could provide a solution for band music in the future.
We can imagine that in the future communication over the net could be powerful enough to make it possible for musicians in different locations to play together as a band, seeing eachother in huge screens (perhaps even as holograms?) and hearing the music they all play mixed together with really top sound quality and avoiding any delays due to distance (hmm, yes presumably it would have to be digital  ).
A real band playing together even when not physically in the same room.
Today we can already videoconference with decent enough quality for a verbal conversation and visual contact. We are far from anything like that but in principle there's no reason why it should not be possible in the future.
This could enable them to compose, jam, rehearse and play together at low cost both economically and in terms of time spent, regardless of them not living in the same town or even country. They could do a lot of work in this way, and if they were pleased I'm sure that they would also make the effort to get physically together for playing whenever they could, and hopefully tour live.
EDIT: after thinking twice I admit that avoiding distance delays could be the hardest point to solve but who knows, the speed of light is the theoretical limit and if signals could be transmitted and processed at a reasonable fraction of it and the distances not excessively remote, I guess that the delays could be unnoticeable for any practical purposes.
Edited by Gerinski - January 04 2013 at 05:38
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 06:13 |
Gerinski wrote:
EDIT: after thinking twice I admit that avoiding distance delays could be the hardest point to solve but who knows, the speed of light is the theoretical limit and if signals could be transmitted and processed at a reasonable fraction of it and the distances not excessively remote, I guess that the delays could be unnoticeable for any practical purposes. |
Unfortunately the speed of light is a problem over geographical distances, there are other delays in the transmission path (refered to as latency) that would also affect timing. When jamming with another musician you have to double these delays (there and back again). If you are lucky you could be looking at delays as short as 10ms, though several seconds delay is not uncommon on something like Skype. At 120bpm 62.5ms would represent an eighth note (quaver) delay so 10ms would be somewhere between a thirty-second note (demisemiquaver) delay and a sixty-forth note (hemidemisemiquaver) delay. If the speed of light was the only limitation then 10mS would represent a distance of 3,000km which is 1/10th of the distance from Earth to a communications satelite in geostationary orbit, so even if you and I (at 300km appart) jammed by satelite we'd experience a 60,000km round-trip delay (1/5th of a second).
Jamming between Europe and America is impossible (as the organisers of Live Aid in '85 discovered when they tried to link London and Philadlphia via satelite for Bowie and Jagger's duet performance)
Edited by Dean - January 04 2013 at 06:20
|
|
What?
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 06:21 |
Surrealist wrote:
I'm not here to make friends or enemies for that matter. It's an open forum and I call things how I see them. I speak from experience as a composer, writer, director, producer, sound engineer and label owner. I also consider myself proficient at both drums, bass, and guitar.
You can disagree all you want with my posts.. fine..
|
I did not say that I disagree with your posts contents, I regretted your posting style. I actually said that I happen to agree with some of the things you try to say but your way of saying them prevents me from "coming to your side".
This is indeed an open forum and everybody is allowed to express opinions but you do not need to question the brain health of those who do not share your opinions or insult the integrity and goodwill of every musician out there who decides to release a one-man album, Mike Oldfield would have disapproved I guess. There's something called elementary education which you seem not to have received, I hope you don't use the same style when talking to people face to face.
And BTW: 1) there's no need to write in huge bold font to get people to read your posts. 2) if you would care to learn to use the "quote" button it would make reading your posts a bit less painful.
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 06:43 |
One "nice" example of a one-man band who uses collaborations with other musicians both "in the same room" and remotely is Arjen Luccassen's Ayreon project. He uses all the facilities and capabilities that modern technology affords and manages to produce some fine music that realises that old adage of the end result being greater than the sum of the parts. Some of his music is composed and created live and some on computer, some of hi scollaborators are recorded in his studio and others get sent backing tracks for them to add to in their studios. A good example was Devin Townsend's contribution to The Human Equation:
| - How did you get in touch with Devin?
Arjen: I got his emailaddress from our mutual label Inside Out and asked him if he would be interested to guest on this Ayreon album. At first he simply said 'no', because he doesn't like to sing other people's lyrics and melodies. Because I really wanted to have him on this album I suggested that he could write his own lyrics. He agreed, so I sent him the instrumental tracks, explained him what the story is about and told him I would like him to portray the emotion 'Rage'.
- Where did Devin record his vocals?
Arjen: Devin recorded his tracks in his own studio in Canada. He just came back from a year of extensive touring, so I had to wait for a couple of months. But it was well worth the wait! He recorded many vocal tracks per song (sometimes over 20!) and really put a lot of work into it.
- How would you describe Devin's voice?
Arjen: Very expressive and emotional. I like his extremes; at times very melodic and almost Beatles-like, and next absolutely over the top and merciless! I really like his multiple harmony stuff with its many layers and his ferocious screams.
- What was the most memorable moment?
Arjen: That must be his screams in the song Loser. Amazing...I have no idea what he means exactly, but the message surely comes across! - What was something you absolutely didn't expect? I didn't expect him to be so precise, I guess he's as big a perfectionist as I am. When I told him this on the phone he answered "Well, it has to be perfect, hasn't it?".
- What was something Devin did not expect?
Arjen: I guess he didn't expect me to answer him that he could write his own lyrics. He told me on the phone how glad he was that I gave him this freedom. He also told me that he really liked the songs he had to do, which is a great compliment coming from a unique artist such as him. |
|
|
What?
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 06:43 |
Dean wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
EDIT: after thinking twice I admit that avoiding distance delays could be the hardest point to solve but who knows, the speed of light is the theoretical limit and if signals could be transmitted and processed at a reasonable fraction of it and the distances not excessively remote, I guess that the delays could be unnoticeable for any practical purposes. |
Unfortunately the speed of light is a problem over geographical distances, there are other delays in the transmission path (refered to as latency) that would also affect timing. When jamming with another musician you have to double these delays (there and back again). If you are lucky you could be looking at delays as short as 10ms, though several seconds delay is not uncommon on something like Skype. At 120bpm 62.5ms would represent an eighth note (quaver) delay so 10ms would be somewhere between a thirty-second note (demisemiquaver) delay and a sixty-forth note (hemidemisemiquaver) delay. If the speed of light was the only limitation then 10mS would represent a distance of 3,000km which is 1/10th of the distance from Earth to a communications satelite in geostationary orbit, so even if you and I (at 300km appart) jammed by satelite we'd experience a 60,000km round-trip delay (1/5th of a second).
Jamming between Europe and America is impossible (as the organisers of Live Aid in '85 discovered when they tried to link London and Philadlphia via satelite for Bowie and Jagger's duet performance) |
Yeah without the technical details that's what I reckoned myself and why I said "and the distances not excessively remote". Yet I was talking of hypothetical future developments, who knows, superconductive media and land instead of satellite connection might enable jamming over distances of, say, 200 kms for any practical purposes, maybe not for recording-level purposes but enough for composing and rehearsing.
And, who knows, quantum entanglement is not supposed to allow transmission of signals at superluminal speed but then, we do not fully understand quantum theory yet, do we? 
Dean wrote:
When jamming with another musician you have to double these delays (there and back again).
|
I'm not sure I understood this one. It could be enough that the signals from the other musicians reach your place, your own signal is already "here". The same for each of them. Or not?
Let's say you are the guitarist. The remote drummer will give the click with his drumsticks for starting to play. He has a 0.005 seconds delay to your location (300 kms at 1/5 the speed of light, remember we are day-dreaming  ). With some clever technique it is conceivable that he could trigger a signal and start his actual first drumstick hit 0.005 later, so that you would actually start playing the first beat at exactly the same time. After this, it is just their signals which have to reach your location.
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 08:24 |
Gerinski wrote:
Dean wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
EDIT: after thinking twice I admit that avoiding distance delays could be the hardest point to solve but who knows, the speed of light is the theoretical limit and if signals could be transmitted and processed at a reasonable fraction of it and the distances not excessively remote, I guess that the delays could be unnoticeable for any practical purposes. |
Unfortunately the speed of light is a problem over geographical distances, there are other delays in the transmission path (refered to as latency) that would also affect timing. When jamming with another musician you have to double these delays (there and back again). If you are lucky you could be looking at delays as short as 10ms, though several seconds delay is not uncommon on something like Skype. At 120bpm 62.5ms would represent an eighth note (quaver) delay so 10ms would be somewhere between a thirty-second note (demisemiquaver) delay and a sixty-forth note (hemidemisemiquaver) delay. If the speed of light was the only limitation then 10mS would represent a distance of 3,000km which is 1/10th of the distance from Earth to a communications satelite in geostationary orbit, so even if you and I (at 300km appart) jammed by satelite we'd experience a 60,000km round-trip delay (1/5th of a second).
Jamming between Europe and America is impossible (as the organisers of Live Aid in '85 discovered when they tried to link London and Philadlphia via satelite for Bowie and Jagger's duet performance) |
Yeah without the technical details that's what I reckoned myself and why I said "and the distances not excessively remote". Yet I was talking of hypothetical future developments, who knows, superconductive media and land instead of satellite connection might enable jamming over distances of, say, 200 kms for any practical purposes, maybe not for recording-level purposes but enough for composing and rehearsing.
And, who knows, quantum entanglement is not supposed to allow transmission of signals at superluminal speed but then, we do not fully understand quantum theory yet, do we? |
Latency is a problem within a studio set-up, add the further complication of distance and the scale of the problem can only get worse. Signals down copper travel at 2/3rds the speed of light (average) - superconductors would improve that but the speed of light would still be a barrier. As I said, there are other delays involved in any transmission system that would have to be overcome too - this isn't the place to go into those, but any standard text on transmission theory covers them in adequate detail. 200km with point-to-point communications is okay at the moment I would imagine as the delays are within acceptable timing constraints - people are remote playing quite successfully, anything less than 10ms is generally okay anyway - even if we were in the same room I doubt we could hit the same note to that degree of accuracy (remembering that the speed of sound is only 343m/s so two people 3.43 metres apart represents a 10ms audio delay). It's when the delays exceed 10mS problems arrise.
I don't beleive that understanding quantum theory would solve all our problems because that would require playing a note before you knew you wanted to play it - or to put it another way: time-travel. However, time-travel for some people would solve a lot.
Gerinski wrote:
Dean wrote:
When jamming with another musician you have to double these delays (there and back again).
|
I'm not sure I understood this one. It could be enough that the signals from the other musicians reach your place, your own signal is already "here". The same for each of them. Or not?
Let's say you are the guitarist. The remote drummer will give the click with his drumsticks for starting to play. He has a 0.005 seconds delay to your location (300 kms at 1/5 the speed of light, remember we are day-dreaming ). With some clever technique it is conceivable that he could trigger a signal and start his actual first drumstick hit 0.005 later, so that you would actually start playing the first beat at exactly the same time. After this, it is just their signals which have to reach your location. |
If I follow your line of reasoning correctly then it still would not work, it would be even worse because of that extra delay you added.
the reason I said the delay is doubled is simple - If you hit a drum and I hear that 5ms later and I plonk a note on my keyboard then you will hear my response 5ms after that, making a total of 10ms delay (from your perspective) between your hit and my plonk. Yes, I hear a 5ms delay, but you get 10ms and we have to work with the worse-case number here if we want to "jam".
Let's assume that clever technique you refer to is the one used by GPS receivers. The GPS satellite generates a clock signal and the receiver generates a clock signal, the time difference between them is used to calculate the positional accuracy of the receiver. If we assume that the time delay from me to the GPS satellite and you to the satellite are the same then that clock can be used as our trigger - we both "hear" the GPS tick at the same time. We now know where the beats are in the bar and that's all fine and dandy if we only listen to the metronome click of the satellite clock and disregard anything the other person plays (which defeats the object).
If I play on the beat and you play on the beat then the sound of your drum hit will arrive at my ears 5ms later than my plonk on the keyboard, and my plonk on the keyboard will arrive at your ears 5ms later than your drum hit. Obviously that's a problem - from your relative point of view you are on the beat and I'm behind the beat yet from my relative point of view I'm on the beat and you are behind the beat - a dichotomy since we both cannot be on the beat and simultaneously behind the beat. The only place where both coincide is a point mid-way between the two of us, and then we both will be 2.5ms behind the beat and that's fine, except neither of us can hear it like that.
So using your solution if you delay your drum hit by 5ms then my keyboard plonk will arrive at your ears in time and they'd both be 5ms behind the beat - seemingly a perfect solution perhaps... for you. Unfortunately I hear your 5ms delayed drum hit another 5ms later, making it 10ms behind the beat - worse still, I hear two keyboard plonks - my original one, then the one delayed by 10ms (the 5ms to your studio, and the 5ms back to mine) - my response to whatever you do will still be 10ms late.
/edit: sorry, I switched to keyboards, I'm a terrible guitarist.
Edited by Dean - January 04 2013 at 08:30
|
|
What?
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 09:47 |
|
Hmmm, sorry but I didn't get it yet. For simplicity let's assume that the distance is equal between all the members, causing a delay of 5 ms between each of them. If by the "clever technique" we can avoid the first 5 ms delay (so that everybody starts playing at exactly the same time, because everybody other than the drummer received the first click 5ms before the drummer actually hit it), then everybody will get the others signals with a 5ms delay, not 10ms.
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 11:22 |
Gerinski wrote:
Hmmm, sorry but I didn't get it yet. For simplicity let's assume that the distance is equal between all the members, causing a delay of 5 ms between each of them. If by the "clever technique" we can avoid the first 5 ms delay (so that everybody starts playing at exactly the same time, because everybody other than the drummer received the first click 5ms before the drummer actually hit it), then everybody will get the others signals with a 5ms delay, not 10ms. |
If just two people is complicated then adding more won't make it any simpler:
The 5ms delay is between each of them - is not just 5ms from drummer to guitarist, 5ms from drummer to keyboardist, 5ms from drummer to bass player. It's also 5ms from guitarist to drummer, 5ms from guitarist to keyboardist, 5ms from guitarist to bass-player; it's also 5ms from keyboardist to drummer, 5ms from keyboardist to guitarist, 5ms from keyboardist to bass-player and it's also 5ms from bass-player to drummer, 5ms from bass-player to guitarist, 5ms from bass-player to keyboardist. [please note that in 3 dimensional space this it the maxium number of band members that can be equal distance apart and one of those will be in orbit - if we confine ourselves to earth-bound studios then we'll have to sack the guitarist]
Every path has a 5ms delay so delaying just one of them will not solve the problem. With a 5ms delay on the first drum hit all hear the drum hit on the beat, and hit their first note - it will then take 5ms for the keyboardist to hear the guitarist and the bass-player, and it will take the same 5ms for the guitarist to hear the keyboardist and bass-player and the same 5ms for the bass-player to hear the keyboardist and the guitarist, and on the surface (if you ignore the drummer) that seems to solve the problem because all the musicians appear to be in time, except no one hears it that way. The guitarist hears himself in time with the drummer and the keyboardist and bass-player delayed by 5ms; the keyboardist hears himself and the drummer in time and the guitarist and the bass-player delayed; the bass-player hears himself and the drummer in time and the guitarist and keyboardist delayed - and the poor drummer hears all of them delayed except himself and the delay he hears is 10ms.
Edited by Dean - January 04 2013 at 11:24
|
|
What?
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 11:59 |
Dean wrote:
The guitarist hears himself in time with the drummer and the keyboardist and bass-player delayed by 5ms; the keyboardist hears himself and the drummer in time and the guitarist and the bass-player delayed; the bass-player hears himself and the drummer in time and the guitarist and keyboardist delayed - and the poor drummer hears all of them delayed except himself and the delay he hears is 10ms.
|
I agree that everybody should hear the others with 5ms delay, but why should the drummer hear the others with 10ms delay? We agreed that by the "clever technique" the others started playing at the same time the drummer did, so their signal just needs to travel from their location to the drummer's location for the drummer to hear them.
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 12:19 |
Gerinski wrote:
Dean wrote:
The guitarist hears himself in time with the drummer and the keyboardist and bass-player delayed by 5ms; the keyboardist hears himself and the drummer in time and the guitarist and the bass-player delayed; the bass-player hears himself and the drummer in time and the guitarist and keyboardist delayed - and the poor drummer hears all of them delayed except himself and the delay he hears is 10ms.
|
I agree that everybody should hear the others with 5ms delay, but why should the drummer hear the others with 10ms delay? We agreed that by the "clever technique" the others started playing at the same time the drummer did, so their signal just needs to travel from their location to the drummer's location for the drummer to hear them. |
Your "clever technique" adds a 5ms delay, you cannot then ignore that delay, it has to be added to the actual 5ms delay between band members, it does not subtract. Each member still hears the other's delayed by 5ms relative to themselves, no one in the band hears all the notes played at the same time.
|
|
What?
|
|
Neelus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 346
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 12:59 |
|
I once saw a jazz funk/samba band performing live in Cape Town, performing original material. And the singer mentioned on stage that the band members dont live in the same part of the country, they got together for the few gigs they were doing over parts of the country. During a break I asked him how they do it, and he mentioned that they develop the material (i guess someone writes and sends material along), rehearse seperately by themselves, and then get together before the gigs to smooth things out in real jams. He did not get into deep details about the methods/programs they use. I could tell that these guys are all musically trained in jazz, which could make this all alot easier. It is possible.
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 13:17 |
Dean wrote:
Your "clever technique" adds a 5ms delay, you cannot then ignore that delay, it has to be added to the actual 5ms delay between band members, it does not subtract. Each member still hears the other's delayed by 5ms relative to themselves, no one in the band hears all the notes played at the same time. |
OK that's what I meant, surely the 5 ms delay relative to themselves can not be avoided, I just didn't understand why you said that the drummer would have to hear the others music with a 10 ms delay relative to himself. Anyway, this was not supposed to turn into a special relativity discussion
|
|
Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 20:05 |
|
Gerinski
No worries, you don't have to come to my side or anyone elses. Maybe I would feel better if someone would make a great Prog album again. I mean great... GREAT!
Prog is a lot of work.. a labor of love. The major labels that used to invest in these bands have chosen to study stock charts. Kids are brainwashed that making it is getting on American Idol or those other idiot shows. They don't even show the band on those shows. Randy Jackson was a monster fusion bass player and he sits on the judges thrown.
I'll sure he makes heaps of dough, but you have to wonder if he as one bone of integrity in his body.
Kids get a computer, and download apples garage band and make digital music they share with their friends on myspace or facebook and they don't ever have to pick up an instrument. The kids with integrity that actually play instruments record into their computer and learn all the ways to fix their errors and call it a day. This kind of music
is about as compelling as taking a digital photo of a master painting by Rembrant and claiming you own it.
There is no upside to Prog anymore as far as career ambitions. In the 70's you could make it as a band. You'd find a label to sell your recordings, pack up your van and hit the road and play to people who had enough intelligence to get what you were doing. You were either good or you were not good. There was no guessing. Now a band puts out an album and you don't know if they even play instruments or have one ounce of musical talent.
In the rock genre, Prog musicians where the best skilled players. If you had several of these guys in your band, you could play Prog. A lot of 70's rock bands would have one or two great players, but often the drummer and bassist where just there to fill in the bottom. A band like UFO comes to mind. I would have loved to hear Micheal Schenker play in a prog band. Surround himself with equals... instead of "Ok guys.. here is my riff, now you play 40 bars of E and A while I solo. Some guys took on the challenge like Jeff Beck and just stole the Mahavishu guys and did those great albums "Wired" and "Blow by Blow". He pushed himself by surrounding himself with inspiring musicians.
I suppose the "one man bands" are either not able to find inspiring comrades or simply don't like "band drama".
You have to know what you are doing when you enter a band... your purpose.
The best thing you can strive for is to work your butt off, get as good as you can.. then make sure you are the worst member in your band.
I am sure Oldfield just didn't enjoy the band process. So he compromised and made compromised music. But what if he had really surrounded himself with top shelf Prog players? What it he brought in John Weathers on drums and and Fripp playing second guitar parts, and Wakeman dancing across his melodic lines? I have a few Oldfield albums which I enjoy... like most.. but I don't find them on the front burner of my vinyl player as often as classics by other Prog bands.
Tubular Bells is fine... but it's not "Wish You Were Here" either.
|
|
Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
|
Posted: January 04 2013 at 20:25 |
Gerinski wrote:
When going through the reviews in the home page I can't help noticing the apparent increase of one-man albums in modern prog (sometimes supported by a couple of guests). I have to admit that I have not listened to many of them.
This has surely been fueled by the new technologies which enable one musician to record and mix all the instruments (real or sampled ones) from the comfort of their home studio.
While it surely has its positive side enabling easier release of music, I'm one of those who think that much of the great music from the past came to being thanks to the chemistry of different musicians playing together and feedbacking each other's creativity. Anyone who has played in a band has experienced those magical moments when all the members seem to "click" in a synchronized state of mind and some amazing music comes out. What started as a jam may produce a sudden fragment of wonderful music which can then be taken and developed into a proper song.
One-man musicians can "jam with themselves" by recording tracks and then improvising on them with another instrument to try to come up with ideas, but the recorded tracks can not react back and change themselves while playing. There is no feedback possible.
Do you think the abundance of modern one-man projects is a good thing or does it tend to lower the creativity level in modern prog? |
Gerinski, hello nice to see you again  I personally have no problem with one man bands, some artists can be most genius really and multi-instrumental excellent, the only downside of this and modern recording tools is that they would never be able to perform this live. Live Music with great musicians sounds so much better, nothing beats that, the musicians can even make mistakes because no one notice, it all about the experience, that positive energy, the hype, the atmosphere around you
|
|
HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7951
|
Posted: January 05 2013 at 09:44 |
|
@Gerinsky
I'm curious. How many would you say it takes to make a "band"? I always think of a band as three or more myself. So, I visualize the thread as being about three or more vs. one, but what do you think about two?
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17511
|
Posted: January 05 2013 at 11:18 |
Hi,
I would like to suggest everyone take a look at the article on Musicians Friend with Ray Kurzweil ... well worth the look from someoen that knows and can see these things ... I think this discussion is starting to go to left field and lose its effectiveness, and I would like to see it locked. Ray discusses this same idea in the last section of the interview.
Edited by moshkito - January 05 2013 at 11:19
|
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
|
Posted: January 05 2013 at 11:55 |
HackettFan wrote:
@Gerinsky
I'm curious. How many would you say it takes to make a "band"? I always think of a band as three or more myself. So, I visualize the thread as being about three or more vs. one, but what do you think about two? |
The line is definitely blurry... I would say that it depends not only on the number of people playing but on the level of their contribution, and also on the style of music.
An album made entirely by one person in which he has 2 or 3 guests but they have a very minor contribution, not having been involved in composition nor arrangements and playing only occasionally in the album, perhaps just for a couple of solos or to add a couple of strings or flute here and there etc, can still probably be considered as a one-man album.
On the other hand Moraz & Bruford's Music For Piano And Drums was composed and performed by just the 2 of them but you can certainly not call it a one-man album because it's clear that the contribution from both was essential to the product.
Albums made by just 1 musician + 1 singer may be specially hard to classify. Jon & Vangelis Private Collection is basically one of these (with the exception of the small contribution by Dick Morrisey on sax) but I don't think it would fit this discussion because I guess that Jon's contributions on the melodies was also essential, he was not just a "hired singer", plus we get to the "style of music" point.
IMO the style of music also plays a role (Dean disagreed here). For electronic / atmospheric music played entirely on synths and drum machines (take Klaus Schulze or above Vangelis) it's meaningless to "complain" about it as being one-man. The one-man format can fit the requirements for this music. It will not have the richness of collaborative effort but we take it for what it is, and it will not suffer in the "instrument proficiency" department.
It's when one man attempts to be a complete band playing a wide range of instruments that the problems can arise compared with having a specialist for each instrument contributing to the composition and interpretation.
Consider also that "playing several instruments proficiently" is not just about technical playing competence, it's about musical vision. The way a true bassist "sees" the music is different than the way a true guitarist or a true drummer or a true keyboardist does. That's the magic of a specialist musician. When toying around with some musical idea, what a good bassist or a good keyboardist or a good drummer or a good guitarist will "see in front of them" are most probably quite different things, and it's this diversity of visions which can produce a much more interesting result than if just one musician lays down his individual vision of all the instruments. He may be able to play bass well but he may be biased to think bass from a guitarist or keyboardist mind etc.
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
|
Posted: January 05 2013 at 12:11 |
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
I would like to suggest everyone take a look at the article on Musicians Friend with Ray Kurzweil ... well worth the look from someoen that knows and can see these things ... I think this discussion is starting to go to left field and lose its effectiveness, and I would like to see it locked. Ray discusses this same idea in the last section of the interview. |
Yeah it was interesting, though I hesitate to describe it as "bright-future looking" or "the death of actual musicianship" 
BTW here's the link so others don't have to search
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pages/ray-kurzweil-interview
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Abundance of one-man "bands" in modern prog
