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Surrealist 
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Joined: October 12 2012
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Points: 232
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 Posted: October 15 2012 at 18:09 |
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I waste time and energy on valve amp designs and construction and spend money purchasing modern vinyl albums such as Gong, Muse, Portishead, Radiohead, Steven Wilson etc
Ok, this is making sense. Are you not aware that these modern vinyl pressings are coming straight off digital feeds from programs like Pro Tools and then being pressed onto vinyl? The vinyl itself is not going to make the music sound better.
I would agree.. just buy the CD at that point and avoid the clicks and crackles. I don't know of a modern vinyl pressing plant that is cutting vinyl masters direct from half track reel to reel mastering decks anymore. If you know of one, by all means, please let me know.
No. People say "Analogue has more detail" and then run away. I ask "where is this detail?" and get no response
If I am so very wrong then refuting what I write should be a piece of cake
It is a piece of cake now knowing a bit about your analog set up. I can see why your ears are not making a distinction.
When I had my Thorens deck with a Pickering running through an NAD amp.... I would have been much more likely to side with a digital argument.. but not with a Goldring 1042 off a Music Hall 5.1 running into a Scott 340B which has one of the best all tube phono stage pre amps ever put into an integrated amp pushing 7591 Output tubes. I'm not even running a Legacy series cartridge.
Not running from anything. Detail is right there in the speakers mate.
So yes, I feel entitled to be dismissive,
Well, that is a bit arrogant isn't it? Entitled?
Well then, I feel entitled to proclaim that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard.
I never comment on peoples equipment and rarely make suggestions or recommendations (on brands or models). You seem to have worked out the setup needed to match the HD800s - a purpose built HP amp could be the next step because a 250W amp can produce more voltage than the HD800s can handle and that will damage them - while you would never use them at those levels, accidents do happen (young kids playing with the volume control when your back is turned kind of thing). If you do consider that route then obviously listen to what you are buying first and don't just buy on spec or by looking at price tickets. Those headphones can also be used with portable equipment if you invest in a suitable portable HP amp. Again - buyer beware - there are some high-priced rip-offs on the market.
Sounds like you just commented on someone's equipment, AND made suggestions.
you're really something! What was that Uriah Heep Album with the mirror on the cover?
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: October 15 2012 at 18:37 |
 Surrealist wrote:
I waste time and energy on valve amp designs and construction and spend money purchasing modern vinyl albums such as Gong, Muse, Portishead, Radiohead, Steven Wilson etc
Ok, this is making sense. Are you not aware that these modern vinyl pressings are coming straight off digital feeds from programs like Pro Tools and then being pressed onto vinyl? The vinyl itself is not going to make the music sound better.
I would agree.. just buy the CD at that point and avoid the clicks and crackles. I don't know of a modern vinyl pressing plant that is cutting vinyl masters direct from half track reel to reel mastering decks anymore. If you know of one, by all means, please let me know. |
...and what of the other 700 vinyl albums in my collection?
Surrealist wrote:
No. People say "Analogue has more detail" and then run away. I ask "where is this detail?" and get no response
If I am so very wrong then refuting what I write should be a piece of cake
It is a piece of cake now knowing a bit about your analog set up. I can see why your ears are not making a distinction.
When I had my Thorens deck with a Pickering running through an NAD amp.... I would have been much more likely to side with a digital argument.. but not with a Goldring 1042 off a Music Hall 5.1 running into a Scott 340B which has one of the best all tube phono stage pre amps ever put into an integrated amp pushing 7591 Output tubes. I'm not even running a Legacy series cartridge. |
Subjective opinion and personal opinion is fine by me. If you think this is valid for justifying your preference for vinyl over digital then as I have said countless times before - that's fine by me. If you think the one setup I listed is inadequate to tell the difference between analogue and digital then I guess I should go out and sell my vinyl albums now. Which is a shame because I really like the big print on the covers. 
Surrealist wrote:
Not running from anything. Detail is right there in the speakers mate. |
In your subjective assessment it is and you prefer the sound you hear but you have not proved it is "more detail" - you have just used the words "more detail" to describe what you hear when in reality you have not proved whether that is more detail or less detail. You haven't even defined what detail is in this instance. I have attempted to demonstrate that the frequencies and voltage levels you believe are present in analogue and not in digital are either present in the digital or not present in the analogue - you have not demonstrated that my explanations are wrong, all you have said is my hi-fi equipment is not good enough to tell the difference, which is irrelevant since I did not use my setup (or anyone elses) in any of my technical explanations.
Surrealist wrote:
So yes, I feel entitled to be dismissive,
Well, that is a bit arrogant isn't it? Entitled?
Well then, I feel entitled to proclaim that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. |
You are entitled to that opinion. If the articles contain factual errors then I am entitled to dismiss them regardless of how arrogant that makes me appear to you. If the articles did not contain factual errors then I would not be dismissive of them.
Surrealist wrote:
I never comment on peoples equipment and rarely make suggestions or recommendations (on brands or models). You seem to have worked out the setup needed to match the HD800s - a purpose built HP amp could be the next step because a 250W amp can produce more voltage than the HD800s can handle and that will damage them - while you would never use them at those levels, accidents do happen (young kids playing with the volume control when your back is turned kind of thing). If you do consider that route then obviously listen to what you are buying first and don't just buy on spec or by looking at price tickets. Those headphones can also be used with portable equipment if you invest in a suitable portable HP amp. Again - buyer beware - there are some high-priced rip-offs on the market.
Sounds like you just commented on someone's equipment, AND made suggestions.
you're really something! What was that Uriah Heep Album with the mirror on the cover?
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I made no suggestion on brands or models, I simply observed that his JVC amplifier was capable of damaging his HD800s and suggested he use a purpose built headphone amplifier instead. If you wish to use that to beat me around the head then go ahead.
PS2: If you think my suggestion to Nick was unsound or wrong then please for his sake correct that now instead of taking cheap shots at me. (The album is Look At Yourself, I bought my copy in 1973 if I remember correctly and the mirror on the cover is not very good and it distorts, which I think was the whole point, but I digress). I would hate it if he spent money following my suggestion that was unnecessary or would make things worse. If you think my suggestion was in fact not an unreasonable one then perhaps you could put your expertise and knowledge to good use and make some positive recommendations of brands and models that would be of benefit to him, or even make your own observations, comments and suggestions on his set up like he asked.
Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 19:32
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Dean
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Posted: October 15 2012 at 19:03 |
Surrealist wrote:
Nope. I have made no subjective comparisons or assessments.
Everyone here will tell you I hate Portnoy's fills.
Well, that is quite a subjective statement isn't it? |
Yes it is a subjective statement but it says nothing about analogue or digital and I would find Portnoys over abundant use of fills distracting in any medium.
Surrealist wrote:
You have no concept of the open or closed nature of my mind, you are making assumptions based on what?
For starters.. how about the fact you are using a Pickering Cartridge? That pretty much explains everything.
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I don't see how that determines whether I am open or closed minded or how you managed to deduce that before I mentioned the brand of cartridge I have in one of my turntables. How very astute of you.
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Dean
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Posted: October 15 2012 at 20:02 |
Catcher10 wrote:
....but for me a lot of pleasure happens because it IS about having to do some work. Cleaning which people think "OMG I have to clean the vinyl??" Some tweeking and playing with gear and such......Well back in the day that was the norm, people liked buttons and playing around with their gear, moving things around, swapping cables and stuff. |
There is a lot to be said for taking ownership of your setup and experimenting. As a professional engineer and an amatuer hobbyist I cannot help but fiddle and tweak, it is ingrained in my nature. With fully integrated systems and with a lot of digital setups the ability to do that is not lost, it's just a lot harder to do. I use a little 10W valve amplifier connected to my laptop driving a pair of 5" bookshelf speakers, not for any pretentious reasons, but simply because it was fun to do and I could do it. And regardless of how pointless that is, it does sound a lot better than the nasty little plastic Logitech speakers I used to have.
Catcher10 wrote:
These are things that to me, has been lost in the easyness of digital, we are a world of NOW, right now......The "old foggies" of vinyl and analog are against a lot of this, and maybe there is some good reason for it......It is wayyyyy too easy to create a CD. Both Dean and Surrealist have done some studio recording and are of the age where they understand the "older" way of recording, I would guess they feel the way it was done back then was a lot more work and maybe even more fun, and at the end of the day if your hard work garners you accolades and a lot of pats on the back then that to me would be more satisfying than just saying "great job on pushing that record button". |
Digital studios are tools to use - you still need skills to mike-up instruments properly to achieve the sound you want - no amount of analogue or digital studio trickery can compensate for a job badly done at that stage. And the same is true of track EQ and mixing - how you use the tools is the same and hasn't changed, a digital studio cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It's more than just pushing a record button, there is still a lot of work to do and satisfying achievements to be made.
Catcher10 wrote:
I am in the middle but I lean heavily to the vinyl side, I enjoy my CDs and digital files......but they are not the same as my vinyl.
I have said over and over, that what Dean says is spot on, to me there is no reason to doubt what he writes......But I know based on his age and experience that deep down inside his core he wants to let that vinyl monster come out and play again......come to the dark side (black vinyl)......Obi-wan  . |
I don't recall ever stating my preference one way or the other. I think I actually said I have no preference ... and that seems to be a bigger crime here than taking sides.
Catcher10 wrote:
Look, how you listen to music is your choice, what you listen to is your choice. I am a person that if I can spend a little time, effort and doing research on my love of vinyl to find those hidden tweeks, and I can create a better sound for me, then I can pat myself on the back and say, nice job! I do not find that is the case with digital and CDs, you just press the play button....and about 20% of the time that works for me.
This is a hobby and I am beyond pleased at the sounds I get when I am home and relaxing after a crapp day at work.....
Happy listening! |
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Surrealist
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Joined: October 12 2012
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Points: 232
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Posted: October 15 2012 at 20:16 |
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I don't see how that determines whether I am open or closed minded or
how you managed to deduce that before I mentioned the brand of cartridge
I have in one of my turntables. How very astute of you.
Everyone I know that swears by their digital media over analog has things like Stanton or Pickering cartridges.. or Dual Turntables.. or things like NAD or JVC solid state amps. When they hear what a decent rig can sound like, they quickly change their opinion. It's usually a slap on the forehead.. WOW!
I don't think it has been an unreasonable deduction from reading your posts on the superiority of Digital music that you are falling into the same category... that being one who doesn't have the kind of setup that can really bring out what a proper vinyl recording has to offer.
My suggestions to you would be to keep the Thorens, but upgrade your cartridge and get a good restored vintage tube amp like an HH Scott or a Fisher 800 (I think the Scott's have better sounding tube driven phono stages) then make sure your speakers have at least one quality horn driver in them. You should be able to get all that done for around a grand. Not that big an investment if you really love music.
And no.. I am not selling anything or pointing anyone toward any one else.
Thanks for the record pressing link. I'll give them a try on our next release.
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Dean
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Posted: October 15 2012 at 20:49 |
Surrealist wrote:
I don't see how that determines whether I am open or closed minded or how you managed to deduce that before I mentioned the brand of cartridge I have in one of my turntables. How very astute of you.
Everyone I know that swears by their digital media over analog has things like Stanton or Pickering cartridges.. or Dual Turntables.. or things like NAD or JVC solid state amps. When they hear what a decent rig can sound like, they quickly change their opinion. It's usually a slap on the forehead.. WOW!
I don't think it has been an unreasonable deduction from reading your posts on the superiority of Digital music that you are falling into the same category... that being one who doesn't have the kind of setup that can really bring out what a proper vinyl recording has to offer. |
I feared this was the case - I have not been espousing the superiority of Digital music in any of my posts - if that is your conclusion from my explanations then you have read them the wrong way or made assumptions I didn't intend to make. You made technical claims about digital media that I simply refuted. I also offered up the reason why valve amplifiers sound warm and less harsh than solid-state based upon the theoretical, the known and the measured characteristics of valve circuits - because I used the word "distortion" you have taken that to be a bad thing, but as I have said: it is not if it sounds good to you. Any change you make to a signal from its original source is termed distortion - if you adjust the tone control on your amplifier you are introducing distortion into the signal because you are changing the sound from the original source into something new. Distortion is what remains when you subtract the original source signal from the signal after it passes through your system - that is the definition - distortion is not a thing that makes a horrible noise and it does not always make things sound worse, it is simply the change in a signal from input to output. If you take a harsh tone like a square wave (for example from a brass instrument) and filter it to produce a smooth sine-wave you have distorted the original signal - the resulting sound is nice and sonourous and a pure tone without all the harmonics that make up a square wave so it is a distortion of the natural sound.
I bought my Pickering cartridge in 1979 (this I remember because I was working in Edinburgh and I bought it with my first pay-cheque after moving there) ... I'd never heard any digital sounds back then and was using it on my Thorens turntable with a Leak valve amp and some and home made speakers - I simply prefered what I heard compared to the Shure.
I once owned a Dual turntable and thought it a bit pants to be honest.
Surrealist wrote:
My suggestions to you would be to keep the Thorens, but upgrade your cartridge and get a good restored vintage tube amp like an HH Scott or a Fisher 800 (I think the Scott's have better sounding tube driven phono stages) then make sure your speakers have at least one quality horn driver in them. You should be able to get all that done for around a grand. Not that big an investment if you really love music.
And no.. I am not selling anything or pointing anyone toward any one else.
Thanks for the record pressing link. I'll give them a try on our next release.
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Sorry I never asked for your advice, but thanks anyway. I suggested you corrected my apparently poor advice to Nick (aka progbethyname) and made recomendations to him.
Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 20:50
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Dean
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Posted: October 15 2012 at 21:05 |
Surrealist wrote:
... then make sure your speakers have at least one quality horn driver in them. |
[enable subjective mode]
I don't like horn drivers in a home speaker system - if you like them then that's fine. But that's just my personal preference - I think they're great in a concert hall.
[disable subjective mode]
Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 21:06
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Surrealist
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 01:13 |
The compression
driver mounted to the throat of a horn, have very
high efficiency compared to cone or dome speakers.
A good metal diaphragm will vibrate at a higher speed which makes for a very efficient tweeter. Horn tweeters approach
100dB in efficiency (most other tweeter types hover between 87 and
94dB). For this reason, horn tweeters are a proper match for vacuum tube amplification. There accuracy will exceed that of a cone or dome design. It's simply better science, nothing subjective here. You should re think your speakers Dean. Dump the solid state stuff and get into a proper analog set up so you can speak more objectively and accurately.
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Surrealist
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 01:15 |
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Sorry I never asked for your advice, but thanks anyway.
A pretty girl smiled at me at the market today.. I didn't ask for that either... but it was nice.. so thank you to both of you.
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Surrealist
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 01:52 |
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I have not been espousing the superiority of Digital music in any of my posts
Bull crap Dean... Time to call you out mate.
The "problem" with analogue systems is there are too many conversion steps that can and do affect the sound:
Here you are bagging on analog systems. Calling you out mate.
In a digital system the electrical information from the microphone is converted to digital,and there the information remains in the digital domain until the ADC in the CD player converts it back to electrical and while it is in the digital domain it is completely immune from any external influences that can affect the sound - the sound you hear coming out of the CD player is identical to the sound the record producer heard in the studio - you cannot make that claim for analogue.
Your bashing analog set ups here.. calling you out. Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.
valve amplifieres and their very necessary output transformers add distortion (in the voltage/current and the time/frequency domains) to the source signal - that is a fundamental limitation of the physics of their construction - that's not subjective or professional bias, it is a bankable fact
Here you are suggesting distortion is bad by labeling it a limitation. Calling you out mate. Stop acting like a politician.
Selenium rectifiers are dreadful period - they degrade over time and are not good at all because as they degrade they affect the life of the valves in the amp. They are also toxic when they fail.
Again you continue to bash. Responsible tube owners change out the rectifiers every ten years and don't have problems. Stop with the subjective nonsense. They are a necessity in restoring vintage tube gear. Dreadful should not be in your scientific manual of jargon.
I've run my NAD amp continuously for 30 years (it only gets switched off when I move house), it is faultless and as good as it was when I first bought it - I cannot conceive a situation where I would ever sell it.
Subjectively preferring solid state nonsense. NAD solid state is no where near the efficiency of a proper tube amp. It takes way too much voltage to get sound out of the speakers.
I like the clarity and transparency of the NAD.
More subjective nonsense, nothing scientific here comparing solid state to vacuum tube amps.
The best SNR that can be recovered from vinyl also has a fundamental limitation
Here you go again with the limitations of vinyl. What about the limitations of sampling a sound wave. Just calling you out mate.
you cannot zoom an analogue signal recovered from a vinyl recording to that same degree of "magnification" - all you see is noise.
It's not noise, it's detail. Stop being subjective. Mr Fripp will not like you calling his music noise. He made a career out of creating beautiful noise.
Valve (tube) amplifiers distort - that is a given fact just as the air is 20.94% oxygen is a given fact.
Here you go again suggesting tube amps are distorting. Admit you don't like them Dean. Your being subjective again.
whatever is incomplete (ie missing) from sampled signals is also missing from vinyl reproduction
Except everything that was not sampled is still present on the vinyl. Even you know you are incorrect here. Your being silly.
I think you'll find what you hear in those "science talks" is a million miles away from science
I think a lot of what you post here is a million miles away from science. Uriah Heep mate.
Vinyl offers no more detail than digital (it offers less)
More subjective nonsense... lies and opinion that is not factual.. nor can it be. Samples are samples. Just calling you out.
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Dean
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 02:01 |
Surrealist wrote:
The compression driver mounted to the throat of a horn, have very high efficiency compared to cone or dome speakers.
A good metal diaphragm will vibrate at a higher speed which makes for a very efficient tweeter. Horn tweeters approach 100dB in efficiency (most other tweeter types hover between 87 and 94dB). For this reason, horn tweeters are a proper match for vacuum tube amplification. There accuracy will exceed that of a cone or dome design.
It's simply better science, nothing subjective here. You should re think your speakers Dean. Dump the solid state stuff and get into a proper analog set up so you can speak more objectively and accurately. |
Horn tweeter?!! Oh - why didn't you say that earlier - I've been using horn tweeters in my speakers for over 35 years. It's only better science when it's used correctly, poorly desgined horns or well desgined horns used poorly can make matters worse.
I assumed you meant horn mid range and woofers, I know some audiophilist swear by them though I've never understood why - the wavelengths of the acoustic sound waves in air make them impractical in a home environment, that's why I differentiated between home and concert hall.
But anyway, thanks for the free advice, when I've a system that approaches your standards I'm sure we can talk subjectively again. In the meantime I will continue to speak objectively and accurately on matters of electronics and audio engineering because whether I have horn tweeters in my system or not, digital sampling will never quantise frequency, that's not better science, that's just science.
Peace out.
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Dean
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 02:07 |
Surrealist wrote:
I have not been espousing the superiority of Digital music in any of my posts
Bull crap Dean... Time to call you out mate. |
I'll reply to this later. I have to go to work now. 
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Snow Dog
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 04:23 |
Dean wrote:
Surrealist wrote:
I have not been espousing the superiority of Digital music in any of my posts
Bull crap Dean... Time to call you out mate. |
I'll reply to this later. I have to go to work now. |
It is clear to see you haven't.
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Dean
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 04:29 |
 Yes I have. I'm sitting at my desk drinking tea having just replaced a PSU in one of our company servers. 
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Snow Dog
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 04:40 |
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progbethyname
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 08:58 |
Dean wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Also. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions about my current audio set up that I posted on page 5? Be nice to get any idea at all by how I can improve it. Thanks so much and great forum. Definately one of the better ones I've be a part of. Thank you guys. |
I never comment on peoples equipment and rarely make suggestions or recommendations (on brands or models). You seem to have worked out the setup needed to match the HD800s - a purpose built HP amp could be the next step because a 250W amp can produce more voltage than the HD800s can handle and that will damage them - while you would never use them at those levels, accidents do happen (young kids playing with the volume control when your back is turned kind of thing). If you do consider that route then obviously listen to what you are buying first and don't just buy on spec or by looking at price tickets. Those headphones can also be used with portable equipment if you invest in a suitable portable HP amp. Again - buyer beware - there are some high-priced rip-offs on the market. |
 Fair enough. Thank you for your comments and concerns too. And yeah I know about portable amps and DAC players, but those HD 800's are for strictly at home use. Wouldn't go abroad with them and I would make no friends because they have massive sound residual, meaning when your listening to them everyone around ya can hear your music big time. The drivers are massive on them. 55mm. Biggest in class. I think being the savvy sound tech person that you are you should give these headphones a try. The sound may be a little bright for some people's taste, but they really are thee most dynamic headphones on the market right now. They re-create a live sound stage. To tell you the truth I've had to re listen to my entire collection because there is so much I missed before. ;)
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Slaughternalia
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 12:50 |
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I am not a fan of the Genesis CD remasters at all. I find the crisp perfection of the mixing brings out the band's mistakes more. Vinyl all the way for me
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I'm so mad that you enjoy a certain combination of noises that I don't
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progbethyname
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 13:27 |
Slaughternalia wrote:
I am not a fan of the Genesis CD remasters at all. I find the crisp perfection of the mixing brings out the band's mistakes more. Vinyl all the way for me |
Hey. Yeah you are not the first one that I've heard say something like this. My feeling is that the remastered editions may sound a little too bright for some listeners. For instance when you hear the vocals the sibilant s's that you hear are very hard and overly pronounced. This is usually caused by over equalization in the sound quality in general. The trebal is typically to high as well. Anyway. There is a way to fix it and this is in no slight to the quality of digital music in general, but you can make alterations to your sound equipment like lowering the lows,mids and highs to a balanced (flat level) equalization. The genesis remasteres will sound much better and not overly bright. But overall your right. The albums do sound a little too over produced.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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moshkito
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 13:44 |
Surrealist wrote:
It's pretty clear that neither of you are listening to progressive rock with a quality analog set up. If you were, you would be understanding what I am saying.
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What do you expect? This is the age of the mp3, and at low levels, this would make the LP and the TAPE look way worse than anything else, which means that ... folks will need to pay for the digital remaster, so their listening experience can come CLOSER to the quality that we had THEN, specially on the FM radio ... which is something you guys are ignoring, that made a lot of this music even better than the albums or the cassettes! Again, this is just like the difference between the American and the English pressing of Sgt Peppers, or Dark Side of the Moon, when the quality was so drastically different, but you were NOT going to notice that on a cheap stereo or on the AM radio when they played Money -- without the word! The digital remaster difference between the English pressing and the remaster is negligeable ... though it sounds like some instruments are closer to your ear ... big fudging deal!!! ... as opposed to the other which sounded like the band was ... over there in the corner! This discussion is going nuts ... Dean is not incorrect ... but you're comparing apples to oranges ... and it's not going to get this anywhere or help anyone else see a truth behind the lie, or the work! It's about the work itself, not the process used! Or Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky ... would never have mattered and we would not know music from the poop from our __________!
Edited by moshkito - October 16 2012 at 13:51
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
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Posted: October 16 2012 at 14:26 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Don't you get sick of doing this every six months or so Dean? |
Actually, we should have a little addon/section/notes/details and such that deal with the history of these things. There is a lot more that helped make "progressive" important, and the technology was but one ... and even folks like Neil Young still go around saying it's better. The sad part is that not many folks will read this and understand this, and seeing Dean do this every other month is kinda sad ... he should have this all worked out and posted and clarified for everyone ... and maybe SD or I or someone else can add a detail or two and examples of the artists that KNEW about the technology and took advantage of it. I do think that the solution to the discussion is a nice evening with a few beers and football ... for us, that means music, of course!
Edited by moshkito - October 16 2012 at 14:30
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
the importance of analog sound in prog
