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KA and E-re are great. Will mention that with Emehntehtt-Re you'll probably be familiar
with themes that Vander used in the album ("Hhai" etc.), but I think
it's been done really well (some have dismissed it for not being original
enough). Joyous.
And K.A is largely based on music composed in the 70s but the album had never been realized.
Magma also has various, I think, very good modern compositions that they have not
put to studio album yet ("Felicite Thosz" is a favourite of mine and is reminiscent of Offering, if you know that Vander band):
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Posted: November 14 2010 at 19:47
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
He didn't mean that if you don't like DT, you're a snob. He means if you're a DT hater who takes every opportunity to bash them repeatedly, saying their not prog, saying all they do is noodle around with their instruments etc. It's snobbish, it's ignorant, and it's completely unneeded.
Well, they are not prog rock, so aren't most prog metal bands. The media have come up with some convoluted definition by which prog metal, a metal genre, belongs to the prog umbrella. It applies to prog metal in general, so only a DT fanboy would interpret it as DT bashing.
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Posted: November 15 2010 at 07:14
rogerthat wrote:
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
He didn't mean that if you don't like DT, you're a snob. He means if you're a DT hater who takes every opportunity to bash them repeatedly, saying their not prog, saying all they do is noodle around with their instruments etc. It's snobbish, it's ignorant, and it's completely unneeded.
Well, they are not prog rock, so aren't most prog metal bands. The media have come up with some convoluted definition by which prog metal, a metal genre, belongs to the prog umbrella. It applies to prog metal in general, so only a DT fanboy would interpret it as DT bashing.
First off, why can't metal be progressive? There's no reason why metal bands can't be progressive in the same way that rock bands can. Secondly, DisgruntledPorcupine is exactly right. Dream Theater get specifically targeted by haters because they apparently do nothing other than noodle and thus they aren't progressive. The metal has little to do with it. Opeth, for instance, get bashed for their "cookie monster growls", but there isn't much dispute that they are progressive.
All your hearts now seem so far from me,
It hardly seems to matter now.
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
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Posted: November 15 2010 at 07:24
Elderflower Man wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
He didn't mean that if you don't like DT, you're a snob. He means if you're a DT hater who takes every opportunity to bash them repeatedly, saying their not prog, saying all they do is noodle around with their instruments etc. It's snobbish, it's ignorant, and it's completely unneeded.
Well, they are not prog rock, so aren't most prog metal bands. The media have come up with some convoluted definition by which prog metal, a metal genre, belongs to the prog umbrella. It applies to prog metal in general, so only a DT fanboy would interpret it as DT bashing.
First off, why can't metal be progressive? There's no reason why metal bands can't be progressive in the same way that rock bands can. Secondly, DisgruntledPorcupine is exactly right. Dream Theater get specifically targeted by haters because they apparently do nothing other than noodle and thus they aren't progressive. The metal has little to do with it. Opeth, for instance, get bashed for their "cookie monster growls", but there isn't much dispute that they are progressive.
Metal can be progressive. Time ago I suggested Tuatha De Danann for inclusion....DT are progressive, too. Only I don't like them. I have to say that Images and Words is not bad at all, but I can't compare it with anything of Magma (except for Merci, of course).
Non-pop music, in general, is a question of state of mind. I like listening to Magma at home with earphones on, while I prefer Ayreon when I'm driving. Am I trolling?
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Posted: November 15 2010 at 11:34
Elderflower Man wrote:
First off, why can't metal be progressive? There's no reason why metal bands can't be progressive in the same way that rock bands can. Secondly, DisgruntledPorcupine is exactly right. Dream Theater get specifically targeted by haters because they apparently do nothing other than noodle and thus they aren't progressive. The metal has little to do with it. Opeth, for instance, get bashed for their "cookie monster growls", but there isn't much dispute that they are progressive.
First off, I am talking about prog, not progressive. Progressive in the context of advancing a music scene is entirely different and can happen in any music scene theoretically. Prog only means the music called prog rock which started in the late 60s and so on and forth.Secondly, I did not say metal cannot be prog but that there are no metal bands that are prog to the same extent as prog rock. The only truly proggy prog metal band I heard are put in eclectic prog, so I wonder if that sort of proves my point. However, it depends on what you call prog rock. If Mostly Autumn's Last Bright Light or Karnataka's Delicate Flame Of Desire and similar complacent pop is prog rock, then yes, DT are prog too, no reservations on my part then. Now why metal is not prog rock is a very long argument and outside the scope of this topic, though if you should so insist, I will humour you. And no, in general, people don't connect noodling and not being progressive. Actually, noodling is a very proggy trait and pervades much of classic prog, the word you are looking for is 'w***ing' or showboating.
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Posted: November 15 2010 at 12:55
rogerthat wrote:
Elderflower Man wrote:
First off, why can't metal be progressive? There's no reason why metal bands can't be progressive in the same way that rock bands can. Secondly, DisgruntledPorcupine is exactly right. Dream Theater get specifically targeted by haters because they apparently do nothing other than noodle and thus they aren't progressive. The metal has little to do with it. Opeth, for instance, get bashed for their "cookie monster growls", but there isn't much dispute that they are progressive.
First off, I am talking about prog, not progressive. Progressive in the context of advancing a music scene is entirely different and can happen in any music scene theoretically. Prog only means the music called prog rock which started in the late 60s and so on and forth.Secondly, I did not say metal cannot be prog but that there are no metal bands that are prog to the same extent as prog rock. The only truly proggy prog metal band I heard are put in eclectic prog, so I wonder if that sort of proves my point. However, it depends on what you call prog rock. If Mostly Autumn's Last Bright Light or Karnataka's Delicate Flame Of Desire and similar complacent pop is prog rock, then yes, DT are prog too, no reservations on my part then. Now why metal is not prog rock is a very long argument and outside the scope of this topic, though if you should so insist, I will humour you. And no, in general, people don't connect noodling and not being progressive. Actually, noodling is a very proggy trait and pervades much of classic prog, the word you are looking for is 'w***ing' or showboating.
Well, if we take "prog" to refer to 70's-era progressive rock, then no, Dream Theater aren't prog. No-one's disputing that Dream Theater aren't a prog rock band, because they aren't. But the general argument that the Dream Theater haters take is that Dream Theater aren't -progressive-.
And in my experience, noodling which doesn't actually lead anywhere musically is basically w****ing, which is what DT are accused of.
All your hearts now seem so far from me,
It hardly seems to matter now.
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Posted: November 15 2010 at 19:35
Elderflower Man wrote:
And in my experience, noodling which doesn't actually lead anywhere musically is basically w****ing, which is what DT are accused of.
No, w***ing is technical exhibitionism for the sake of it (which also doesn't really lead the music anywhere). Noodling is found in lots of prog albums, The Wall, TAAB, KC and Genesis in general.
Oh boy. More Dream Theater bashing. Anyone would think they set out to offend someone. And here in prog rock land they get slated for playing complex music. And in solos yet.
If they did the Yes / Genesis thing and made pop tunes they would get slagged for that. Still I've only 2 DT albums, what do I know? But what is wrong with Metropolis and Ocatvarium?
I read a PA review of their latest . The review said how awful the Petrucci lyrics were but ... no examples given. Kind of makes the review less than credible, Which is a shame as I don't think it was a bashing review just needed something to back up the opinion.
Anyway my vote goes to Magma as I have no idea whether their lyrics are good or not. But the music I find is quite entrancing and original. And they manage to go on credibly without Klaus Blausquiz. (sp?) Not easy in their version of their line of work.
I don't mind negative comment... but I do like to read thoughtful criticism not just mindless bashing. I mean it's not as if DT are just some dumb (sic) metal band no?
P.S. I don't find metal dumb... I attempt irony... hence the emoticons and other clues.
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Posted: November 16 2010 at 17:07
rogerthat wrote:
Elderflower Man wrote:
And in my experience, noodling which doesn't actually lead anywhere musically is basically w****ing, which is what DT are accused of.
No, w***ing is technical exhibitionism for the sake of it (which also doesn't really lead the music anywhere). Noodling is found in lots of prog albums, The Wall, TAAB, KC and Genesis in general.
Let me try that again. Noodling is a perfectly fine element to have in music, but the argument is that Dream Theater noodle excessively in lieu of actual content. Is that clearer?
All your hearts now seem so far from me,
It hardly seems to matter now.
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