Robert Plant - Prog? |
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lucas
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 06 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8138 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 08:56 | |||||||
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 09:04 | |||||||
^ You find Plants music divorced from prog completely and yet you vie for the inclusion of Priest who have even less to do with Prog.
Edited by Snow Dog - November 06 2011 at 09:05 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 10:04 | |||||||
1.- Everything I say is my opinion, I must have said IMO at least 3 or more times in this thread, but I can't go placing that phrase in each post WE ALWAYS EXPRESS OUR OPINIONS. 2.- The fact that some labels released Prog and mainstream means NOTHING, most of them like Virgin (As Richard Branson said), had to release popular music to finance the more experimental and less popular bands. 3.- I respect the decisions of the teams, but I don't have to agree with them, I believe they made mistakes, as I'm sure many believe we made mistakes in Symphonic.....Making a tour with Prog and mainstream bands is a mistake many do very often, they believe the popularity of one band will be shared with the other (Of course IMO). 4.- I don't accuse the teams of adding their favorite bands, I said many people suggest their favorite bands (We've seen a lot of that) and many times they are added by MISTAKE. Still I'm sure a lot of members agree with the idea I express, just listen them if you don't want to listen me (as usual). Please don't say I imply bthings I never said. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 06 2011 at 10:17 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 10:33 | |||||||
Purism doesn't mean we believe Prog has to remain ecstatic in the 70's, but being open mnded doesn't mean adding any artist with that excuse. I don't believe in such thing as Prog Pop, but I learned to accept it, if a POP artist has Prog elements, can fit in Crossover or Prog Related, but IMO (Seems I have to say this frequently) many artist that have some incredibly distant connection or none with Prog are being added. This IMO is making us loose credibility and making us loose more potential members than the ones who come..A fan of Bjork or Sally French, will hardly join PA to talk about real Prog bands. Just to finish, Prog has to evolve, we have a lot of genres that prove that like Avant, Rio etc, even Symphonic the conception of Symphonic has evolved from the 70's, but this doesn't justify Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga being added under the excuse of Prog having to evolve (Hyperbole just in case). Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 06 2011 at 10:36 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 12:08 | |||||||
Sorry?
Who does the evaluation and the addition of the bands here - the Team or the person who suggested the band? If you accuse a band being added here because it is someone's favourite band then the implication is the band was added for that reason and not because the eval team believe the band is Prog. Now if that is not what you meant to say then that's fine, we will move on having had that misunderstanding cleared up.
However....
don't make this into a personal attack on me.
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 12:35 | |||||||
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 06 2011 at 12:44 |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 12:46 | |||||||
There's a good debate going on here folks. Let's not spoil it with personality clashes and finger pointing from those who know better.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 13:21 | |||||||
"Sorry" followed by an question mark is not asking for an apology or making some sheepish apology of my own, it is a colloquialism meaning "Pardon?", a figure of speach marking incredulity to your statement: "Please don't say I imply bthings I never said"
If this is what you really meant then there is nothing of that that can be inferred from the statement you made: "We are adding Classic Rock from the 70's, adult contemporary musicians, Indie, alternative, etc, because a few love to see their favorite band here".
However I do not agree with your expanded explanation either. Of course people make mistakes - that's why we have a minimum team size and majority voting and why we stamp down on people putting pressure on teams to get results (even from within the team itself). This minimises the possibility of mistakes but cannot completely irradicate them, however what it does mean is that the kinds of "mistakes" you are referring to here are extremely rare and certainly not on the scale you are implying here - ie ones frequent enough to be noticed. To date I am not aware of any band that was added here solely because they were someone's favourite band - every band added was evaluated and added by due process. You may not agree with some of those additions, but they were not added because a team was put under presure from anyone else.
I do not contradict anything you say - I simply disagree with practically everything you say because I just don't agree with everything you say. You have accused me of not wanting to listen to you - why is that? Is it because I don't agree with you therefore could not possibily have listened to you? That's a bizzarre outlook and I don't find your arguments that compelling or convincing. I always doubt that anyone ever agrees with me and it comes as a pleasant surprise when anyone does - I cannot have the assumption that everyone has (or should have) the same opinion as me, and with that, I cannot lay claim to knowing that a lot of members agree with me - though the law of probaability would suggest that possibly some do.
See the thing is, you can have this impression of me without making it personal. It's your choice, you know where the report button is. Edited by Dean - November 06 2011 at 13:24 |
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What?
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lazland
Prog Reviewer Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13634 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 13:41 | |||||||
We should not forget, and I think that Dean made this point very well, that in the late 1960's & 1970's prog was mainstream.
There are many people who don't think that Genesis post Hackett should be on the site because they were, whisper it carefully, commercial., an opinion I totally disagree with. On the original poll question of Plant, I gave my honest opinion that he was prog related, at best. That would be based upon albums such as Pictures At Eleven, and the follow up, whose name escapes me. His later stuff, both solo and with collaborators such as Alison Krauss (a great album, BTW) would not, IMHO, fit into the prog site at all. I've said it before, but will repeat myself - this is the problem with having an artist, rather than albums included on the site. Of course, then we would all row until kingdom come about the albums, but there is the nature of such things. I can, therefore, see why Plant is on here for albums such as the debut. Having Raising Sand & Band Of Joy is simply ludicrous - they are not even prog related, let alone crossover prog. I would also make the entirely reasonable point that having such albums on this site makes it almost unbelievable that Phil Collins is not here as a solo artist - there is a lot of at least prog related stuff on Face Value, for instance. This is not a personal dig at anyone - indeed, both Ivan & Dean make very good points in their respective defences of their positions. I do, though, really think that we need to start to think very carefully about who and what we include on the site. As Dean said, you would not put all of, for instance, Vertigo's stable on the site just because they are on the same record label as bands who are here, or because the drummer of a certain band farted on a prog album once. This same argument, IMO, applies to the discussion re Judas Priest. When I was a long haired teenage yobbo, I loved them a great deal. They even made a concept album - it doesn't make them a prog band, though, and I suspect that if you asked Halford or the rest whether they considered themselves even prog related, they would laugh in your face.
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lucas
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 06 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8138 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 13:47 | |||||||
I simply quoted a guy from Amazon who explained JP were the link between traditional heavy metal and prog metal. The fact that my avy is a JP cover has nothing to do with a supposed fierce determination to include them in PA. And remember that they have two albums that are respectively psychedelic hard rock and progressive hard rock.
And yes, Robert Plant has strictly nothing to do with prog. Can you point out at least one full prog album by Robert Plant ?
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 13:51 | |||||||
Do we need a full prog album for xover? Principle of Moments is progish. So are the couple of albums after it. I genuinely though I read your support for JPs inclusion, nothing to do with your avvy. Sorry if I'm mistaken
Edited by Snow Dog - November 06 2011 at 13:54 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 14:11 | |||||||
Dean, I had a long reply, but it's a waste of time.
I Know what I said and it's not what you imply. But leave it there. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 06 2011 at 14:12 |
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14117 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 14:14 | |||||||
A message to everybody: can we go back to the thread subject? To Plant or not to Plant? second message: a debate of this kind has already been seen several times, but it would be probably better moving it in a more appropriate thread. third message: I'm sorry to see so harsh discussions between two trustful members. This is the kind of things that can really send people away. When it goes too "personal", as it now seems to be, why don't you use PMs instead?
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 14:16 | |||||||
I believed that for a FULL PROG GENRE, we need at least a FULL PROG ALBUM, and Crossover is a FULL PROG GENRE. If a band or artist has Proggish moments, the right place would be Prog Related...I don't believe Plant is even there. Iván BTW: I don't believe Judas Priest should be here, even when i believe they are closer than Plant. |
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lazland
Prog Reviewer Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13634 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 14:18 | |||||||
That is my understanding as well. As I implied before, it might be an idea to revisit those guidelines.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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Man With Hat
Collaborator Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166178 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 14:20 | |||||||
Uhh,,,yes. Its a full prog genre and should be subjected to the rules of the other prog subs for addittion. As I understead an artist needs at least 1 full prog album for inclusion. (I assume its differernt for PR being it's not full prog sub). If it is not then we have a bigger problem here.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 14:25 | |||||||
No, Plant is way more prog than JP. If you need a full prog crossover album then i submit The Principle Of moments
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dreadpirateroberts
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 27 2011 Location: AU Status: Offline Points: 952 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 18:04 | |||||||
A fine point. No doubt this has indeed been discussed before, but why not again?
What are the strengths and drawbacks to introducing a new category/section called something like Crossover Albums?
This would allow for some albums which have missed out, due to an artist having the rest of the discog ineligble, to be included. As I see it, the Crossover Artist section doesn't cater for this situation. An CO 'Albums' would allow Plant to (potentially) slip an album or two in an doubtless other bands too, but remove his country/pop/world fusion albums out
I can see two good things to come of it:
1) A reduction of diatribes against artists' on basis of discogs (and by extension 'what is prog' debates)
2) An expansion of the PA database to include some missing gems
On the downside, it would no doubt be a truckload of work - and would effectively trash a lot of hard work done by members in the past, which seems unfair. It will also increase the burden on the evaluation teams.
Thoughts?
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7272 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 18:14 | |||||||
True! However, I'm of the opinion that Lady Gaga would make one hell of a prog act if she wanted to go that way! She's a talented keyboardist, expert with costumes and knows how to captivate an audience! Bieber, not so much.....
Edited by cstack3 - November 06 2011 at 18:16 |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: November 06 2011 at 18:36 | |||||||
I remember when I first listened to Pictures At Eleven.....Only thing missing was the rest of Led Zepp members and I thought there were some proggy moments on that album. Certainly more main stream rock though....
Then Principal of Moments....more proggy stuff on that one I thought, I also own Now and Zen, proggy album cover but that's about it.
Clearly there are many prog attributes to his solo material, not 100% but its there.
I chose the 2nd to the last option.
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