Objectivity in rating albums |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15132 |
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Then I'd like to hear, Ozgur, do you use any specific method to get this kind of objectivity, besides the definition itself? Or do you maybe have some particular qualifications which help you with that? |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2667 |
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Good take, and I agree. I literally meant "objectively assessing", and it surely cannot encompass objectivity outside the scope of one's subjectivity, axcept for the technical aspects. Imagine that you're a music expert. You encountered a classical piece that uses a harmony first time in the world. You hated it, but objectively call it groundbreaking. It goes beyond your tastes and interpretation. Unless someone falsifies you showing that, that harmony had already been invented, your high praise, stars whatsoever would be out of an objective and correct assessment. |
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2667 |
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Well. I don't like to use methods in life, unless I have to. I prefer to invent my style in things. If that gets too methodological, I lose my interest and either make it flexible or let it collapse. But, I think, I can differentiate a masterfully done artwork from a weak one. At least, with a relatively profound accuracy. Edited by Archisorcerus - March 16 2022 at 12:29 |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
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Well.....that just about sums up 7 pages of philosophizing on the objectivity of ratings. |
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fathomer1963
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There are really only two quantifiable measures when reviewing an album: a) how well is the album recorded and b) how well is it mastered. And no, these really are NOT the same. How 'good' the music is, how well its been performed, whether the lyrics are well written are all highly subjective. This has been the issue with music (and film, or any art form) since the dawn of critics. I personally despise many music critics, but that is with hindsight, as sites like Allmusic now make a real effort to produce reviews that reflect the views of the reviewer, not the music biz, the reviewers cliche, or the political climate. The online sites (as the traditional media haven't changed one bit) have tried hard to move away from, 'pale, stale, middle class and male' as the 'only' reviewers in the game. However, the same rule still applies even to the new music reviews - they are all (often highly) subjective. As such while reading reviews is interesting, they should always carry the caveat, 'these are the views of the reviewer alone, and may not be shared by you'. Its a good job I've always disliked reviewers, or I wouldn't have any prog albums at all, and my taste in music, if guided purely by the mainstream reviewers consensus, would consist of the rolling stones, the stooges, Velvet Underground, Joy Division, the Sex Pistols, and every single indie pop/guitar band since 1990. You can argue that as the reviewers are 'right' as their views are shared by millions of others, but so what? That, as the large followings of some the worst bands of all time have garnered, proves nothing.
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Hugh Manatee
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Publications have become much more diversified now than they were pre punk. Before punk music was all mixed together and musicians took their influences from all styles of music and mashed them together in a glorious stew that didn't really have a specific category. Then along came punk and music splintered into a million pieces. Nowadays if you want to find out what critics think about prog you read "Prog", if you want to find out about metal you read "Metal Hammer", if you are interested in classic rock you read "Classic Rock" and so on and son on. You would think that each of these publications could direct you towards what those particular critics considered the best examples of their particular genres, so I think reviews now reflect better the tastes of someone interested in that particular genre and therefore are a better indicator of whether a particular piece is a good example of that particular genre. The problem with this diversification is that it becomes easier to get stuck within a musical genre and not explore music outside a chosen, favored genre. Who can afford to buy all those different publications after all.
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15132 |
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So you're thinking of "objective" as "quantifiable" - like some other posts here. Can you tell me where this definition comes from?
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 12732 |
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Thinking of Doug's reaction videos, I think I could imagine how an objective review could be done. Now, he does give a nice insight of what he likes in a song and so, but there are good parts in which he is just saying in which key or tempo or whatever technical terms the music is done... now if he only focused on that without any observation about whether that is good or cool or whatever, he would get a totally objective review, and I bet it would be utterly boring to any non-musician... and perhaps also to musicians who can identify such things... leaving it of interest only to music students, I guess. |
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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I can completely understand where you are coming from, and Doug certainly gives a lot of objective insight into his videos. But in every case (at least from the videos I have seen) he uses his objective knowledge to explain why he reacts to the music the way he does - and that’s the key because a reaction video is not really a review. Given this thread is attempting to find out how objectivity can be used in PA reviews, Doug isn’t a great example because so much of his appeal is visual (as it is for any reaction video), and much of his “reviews” are non-verbal. If it were a written review, it would not be a very different thing. And, yes, if Doug had no personal observations, he might give a totally objective statement. But it would no longer be a review, because by definition a review requires some appraisal or assessment of the work. Without the subjective, Doug’s words would become a study, rather than a review - hence why “leaving it of interest only to music students, I guess”. NB I’m not suggesting that people would not enjoy reading this, nor that it could not be posted as a “review” on PA. But it would not be a review, and as objective as the content might be, it could never be completely objective while a rating still needs to be given. David seems to think that people are defining objective as quantifiable, but I think he is simply misreading, because I’ve seen no one do that. But in asking how possible it is to be objective when rating an album for PA, it is impossible to avoid something being quantifiable. When people mention quantifiable, they do not always preface it with the word “objectively”, but it’s clear to me (even if not to David) that that is what they mean. As soon as Doug attempted to quantity his words, as objective as they might be, the objectivity comes into question. |
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Guldbamsen
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Cat Stevens’ take on bacon is equally of interest methinks…or perhaps one of those riveting birth reviews from the father’s hands. |
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ExittheLemming
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15132 |
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Guys, reviews, as more than rating criteria, are not the topic here.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Well, it doesn’t help that you keep editing your OP, but even in its most recent edit, discussion of rating criteria appears relevant to the topic. Also, in terms of reviews on PA (which was definitely part of the OP in at least one of its iterations), it is impossible to avoid ratings. As much as some of us would prefer to be able to write a review without giving a rating, that is not a possibility. |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15132 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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^ Wow! Even the post you’ve just quoted has been edited to say something different from what it said originally. I guess I should thank you for quoting it, or I’d not have realised you’d edited it.
🙄 [EDiT] [/EDIT]
Edited by nick_h_nz - March 17 2022 at 05:45 |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15132 |
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But I can tell you that one of the reasons is that I don't have patience to correct all the factual errors/lies?, you make in your posts when referring to mine, neither do I find them positive to do.
Edited by David_D - March 17 2022 at 16:26 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15132 |
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I must admit, I didn't know that the question of the degree of objectivity in rating criteria could be so controversial, while my own understanding of "objective" is the characteristics which belong to an object, in this case, music. And as told, I certainly do distinguish between the possibility for objectivity in rating criteria themselves and one's evaluation of them/the rating. "If to define "objective" as "having existence outside the mind", should rating criteria like production, song writing, originality and perfomance not be considered then as objective? I can tell about my own point of view that I distinguish between these criteria mentioned here themselves and a raters evaluation of them. The criteria themselves are at least to a certain degree objective, as defined here, but a rater's evalution of them/rating will always be to a certain degree/mostly? subjective." Besides that, when I'm talking about "a very subjective review", I mean a review where the reviewer basically almost just tells whether he/she likes the music, or at least describes it in a very "good or bad" way. I'd say that in these cases, the monologue-talk is more about the reviewer's tastes than about the music.
Edited by David_D - March 18 2022 at 08:54 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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rushaholic
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@David_D - buddy i still don't have an f-ing clue what you are trying to say here. 7 pages of what??? either you like an album or you don't...
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15132 |
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Well, that used to be my own approach, and still surely mostly is in my own rarely rating, but I must admit that I've began to think about that there could be more in the fact that some albums are not only highest rated, but even much higher than others, and it continues to be so for god knows how long time. Fogging interesting, isn't it? And enjoy yourself, buddy! patience, my child
Edited by David_D - March 18 2022 at 07:05 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15132 |
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How about some lyrics Van der Graaf Generator "Childlike Faith in Childhood's End" Existence is a stage on which we pass a sleepwalk trick for mind and heart: it's hopeless, I know, but onward I must go and try to make a start at seeing something more than day to day survival, chased by final death If I believed this the sum of the life to which we've come, I wouldn't waste my breath Somehow, there must be more. There was a time when more was felt than known but now, entrenched inside my sett, in light more mundane, thought rattles round my brain: we live, we die...and yet? .................. (from the album Still Life (1976))
Edited by David_D - March 17 2022 at 13:34 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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