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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 11:18
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

This definition is good, and I try to do likewisely, at least to a certain extent, in my assessments, oftenly:

Objective: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective

Then I'd like to hear, Ozgur, do you use any specific method to get this kind of objectivity, besides the definition itself?
Or do you maybe have some particular qualifications which help you with that?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 11:55
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

For me, objectivity in ratings is rating an album justly, defying your tastes/preferences, and all that entails. I hate Pink Floyd, but I wouldn't give one of their accomplished albums a 1-star. Or, I hate djent, but I wouldn't give a well-crafted album in that genre a single star. Or else, I love Symphony X, but I would only give 5 stars to a single album of them, out of their 9. As a final example, I love Therion - Theli. It is one of my favourite albums. But it is flawed. So, I would give it 3 or 3.5 stars (if possible). There is still subjectivity here for sure, but we are "the" subjects, and the ratings come out of us. So...

What I see in this, and with which I can identify, is the honourable attitude to go beyond the straight "judgement" of one's own taste when reviewing. This means asking myself more than just "do I like it?"; a commitment to become more analytic when listening, that is, to consciously evaluate certain criteria even if these don't seem to play a role to whether the immediate taste is drawn to something or not,  but also a commitment to try to find a way to appreciate qualities in an album that the personal taste may not have gone for when listening to the album for the first time or even never without consciously making an effort. For sure a review can benefit from this, as it may bring up aspects of the album with which a reader can identify more than the writer themselves. In fact even the personal taste can benefit, because going down this path brings the chance to discover something about the album, to like and appreciate something that wouldn't have been obvious to the immediate taste judgement.

One can see in this an attempt to go beyond subjectivity, however I still think that objectivity is the wrong word for it. In this way we don't go outside our own mind and personal perception (as "objectivity" would require), rather we add to it and extend it.

Good take, and I agree. I literally meant "objectively assessing", and it surely cannot encompass objectivity outside the scope of one's subjectivity, axcept for the technical aspects. Imagine that you're a music expert. You encountered a classical piece that uses a harmony first time in the world. You hated it, but objectively call it groundbreaking. It goes beyond your tastes and interpretation. Unless someone falsifies you showing that, that harmony had already been invented, your high praise, stars whatsoever would be out of an objective and correct assessment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 11:58
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

This definition is good, and I try to do likewisely, at least to a certain extent, in my assessments, oftenly:

Objective: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective

Then I'd like to hear, Ozgur, do you use any specific method to get this kind of objectivity, besides the definition itself?
Or do you maybe have some particular qualifications which help you with that?


Well. I don't like to use methods in life, unless I have to. I prefer to invent my style in things. If that gets too methodological, I lose my interest and either make it flexible or let it collapse.

But, I think, I can differentiate a masterfully done artwork from a weak one. At least, with a relatively profound accuracy.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 16 2022 at 12:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 12:12
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I've never really understood this purported requirement for objectivity in a review. If you don't like the taste of say, chicken is there a realistic expectation you can describe your own experience of the taste of chicken in an unbiased fashion to someone reading your 'chicken' review? I tend to try to avoid genres that I clearly have no affinity for e.g. Tech/Extreme Prog Metal, Indo Prog/Raga Rock, Neo Prog.


Well.....that just about sums up 7 pages of philosophizing on the objectivity of ratings.
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fathomer1963 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 16:20
There are really only two quantifiable measures when reviewing an album: a) how well is the album recorded and b) how well is it mastered. And no, these really are NOT the same. How 'good' the music is, how well its been performed, whether the lyrics are well written are all highly subjective. This has been the issue with music (and film, or any art form) since the dawn of critics. I personally despise many music critics, but that is with hindsight, as sites like Allmusic now make a real effort to produce reviews that reflect the views of the reviewer, not the music biz, the reviewers cliche, or the political climate. The online sites (as the traditional media haven't changed one bit) have tried hard to move away from, 'pale, stale, middle class and male' as the 'only' reviewers in the game. However, the same rule still applies even to the new music reviews - they are all (often highly) subjective.

As such while reading reviews is interesting, they should always carry the caveat, 'these are the views of the reviewer alone, and may not be shared by you'. Its a good job I've always disliked reviewers, or I wouldn't have any prog albums at all, and my taste in music, if guided purely by the mainstream reviewers consensus, would consist of the rolling stones, the stooges, Velvet Underground, Joy Division, the Sex Pistols, and every single indie pop/guitar band since 1990. You can argue that as the reviewers are 'right' as their views are shared by millions of others, but so what? That, as the large followings of some the worst bands of all time have garnered, proves nothing.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 17:01

Publications have become much more diversified now than they were pre punk. Before punk music was all mixed together and musicians took their influences from all styles of music and mashed them together in a glorious stew that didn't really have a specific category. Then along came punk and music splintered into a million pieces.

Nowadays if you want to find out what critics think about prog you read "Prog", if you want to find out about metal you read "Metal Hammer", if you are interested in classic rock you read "Classic Rock" and so on and son on.

You would think that each of these publications could direct you towards what those particular critics considered the best examples of their particular genres, so I think reviews now reflect better the tastes of someone interested in that particular genre and therefore are a better indicator of whether a particular piece is a good example of that particular genre.

The problem with this diversification is that it becomes easier to get stuck within a musical genre and not explore music outside a chosen, favored genre. Who can afford to buy all those different publications after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 17:15
Originally posted by fathomer1963 fathomer1963 wrote:

There are really only two quantifiable measures when reviewing an album: .....

So you're thinking of "objective" as "quantifiable" - like some other posts here.
Can you tell me where this definition comes from?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:15
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

We want the subjective stuff!


Well, different folks different strokes. I must say that I don't find very subjective reviews particularly interesting. 


Can you provide evidence of an album review that is not subjective? I don’t think I’ve ever seen an objective album review in my life. Every album review will have some objective criteria mentioned, even if it’s just the number of musicians or the instruments they play - but the vast majority of every album review will be subjective, because it’s virtually the only way to write a review. A music review, by definition is a critical appraisal/assessment of a work that seeks to judge the worth/value/importance of it, as heard by the listener. By its very nature, it’s subjective. I sincerely doubt there has ever been a purely objective review written for an album, and furthermore doubt that it would even be possible,

As usual in your posts and comments, you make plenty of observations, but provide very little evidence to back them up. When questioned as to what exactly you mean, you tend to either completely ignore the questions (as I expect you will do in this case, given you have expressed elsewhere your dislike of me), or get overly defensive and suggest that people are not reading your OP and/or not understanding what you mean. The thing is, we have all read your OP, and while we ask for elucidation of what you mean, you stubbornly resist answering on the basis that we don’t understand, rather than trying to help us understand.



Thinking of Doug's reaction videos, I think I could imagine how an objective review could be done. Now, he does give a nice insight of what he likes in a song and so, but there are good parts in which he is just saying in which key or tempo or whatever technical terms the music is done... now if he only focused on that without any observation about whether that is good or cool or whatever, he would get a totally objective review, and I bet it would be utterly boring to any non-musician... and perhaps also to musicians who can identify such things... leaving it of interest only to music students, I guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 01:35
 
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

We want the subjective stuff!


Well, different folks different strokes. I must say that I don't find very subjective reviews particularly interesting. 


Can you provide evidence of an album review that is not subjective? I don’t think I’ve ever seen an objective album review in my life. Every album review will have some objective criteria mentioned, even if it’s just the number of musicians or the instruments they play - but the vast majority of every album review will be subjective, because it’s virtually the only way to write a review. A music review, by definition is a critical appraisal/assessment of a work that seeks to judge the worth/value/importance of it, as heard by the listener. By its very nature, it’s subjective. I sincerely doubt there has ever been a purely objective review written for an album, and furthermore doubt that it would even be possible,

As usual in your posts and comments, you make plenty of observations, but provide very little evidence to back them up. When questioned as to what exactly you mean, you tend to either completely ignore the questions (as I expect you will do in this case, given you have expressed elsewhere your dislike of me), or get overly defensive and suggest that people are not reading your OP and/or not understanding what you mean. The thing is, we have all read your OP, and while we ask for elucidation of what you mean, you stubbornly resist answering on the basis that we don’t understand, rather than trying to help us understand.

 

Thinking of Doug's reaction videos, I think I could imagine how an objective review could be done. Now, he does give a nice insight of what he likes in a song and so, but there are good parts in which he is just saying in which key or tempo or whatever technical terms the music is done... now if he only focused on that without any observation about whether that is good or cool or whatever, he would get a totally objective review, and I bet it would be utterly boring to any non-musician... and perhaps also to musicians who can identify such things... leaving it of interest only to music students, I guess.

I can completely understand where you are coming from, and Doug certainly gives a lot of objective insight into his videos. But in every case (at least from the videos I have seen) he uses his objective knowledge to explain why he reacts to the music the way he does - and that’s the key because a reaction video is not really a review. Given this thread is attempting to find out how objectivity can be used in PA reviews, Doug isn’t a great example because so much of his appeal is visual (as it is for any reaction video), and much of his “reviews” are non-verbal. If it were a written review, it would not be a very different thing.

And, yes, if Doug had no personal observations, he might give a totally objective statement. But it would no longer be a review, because by definition a review requires some appraisal or assessment of the work. Without the subjective, Doug’s words would become a study, rather than a review - hence why “leaving it of interest only to music students, I guess”.

NB I’m not suggesting that people would not enjoy reading this, nor that it could not be posted as a “review” on PA. But it would not be a review, and as objective as the content might be, it could never be completely objective while a rating still needs to be given.

David seems to think that people are defining objective as quantifiable, but I think he is simply misreading, because I’ve seen no one do that. But in asking how possible it is to be objective when rating an album for PA, it is impossible to avoid something being quantifiable. When people mention quantifiable, they do not always preface it with the word “objectively”, but it’s clear to me (even if not to David) that that is what they mean. As soon as Doug attempted to quantity his words, as objective as they might be, the objectivity comes into question.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 04:49
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I've never really understood this purported requirement for objectivity in a review. If you don't like the taste of say, chicken is there a realistic expectation you can describe your own experience of the taste of chicken in an unbiased fashion to someone reading your 'chicken' review? I tend to try to avoid genres that I clearly have no affinity for e.g. Tech/Extreme Prog Metal, Indo Prog/Raga Rock, Neo Prog.

Cat Stevens’ take on bacon is equally of interest methinks…or perhaps one of those riveting birth reviews from the father’s hands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 05:05
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I've never really understood this purported requirement for objectivity in a review. If you don't like the taste of say, chicken is there a realistic expectation you can describe your own experience of the taste of chicken in an unbiased fashion to someone reading your 'chicken' review? I tend to try to avoid genres that I clearly have no affinity for e.g. Tech/Extreme Prog Metal, Indo Prog/Raga Rock, Neo Prog.

Cat Stevens’ take on bacon is equally of interest methinks…or perhaps one of those riveting birth reviews from the father’s hands.


LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 05:19

Guys, reviews, as more than rating criteria, are not the topic here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 05:23
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Guys, reviews, as more than rating criteria, are not the topic here.

Well, it doesn’t help that you keep editing your OP, but even in its most recent edit, discussion of rating criteria appears relevant to the topic.

Also, in terms of reviews on PA (which was definitely part of the OP in at least one of its iterations), it is impossible to avoid ratings. As much as some of us would prefer to be able to write a review without giving a rating, that is not a possibility.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 05:38
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I've asked you to stay away from me, Nick.

You have, but that’s not how a forum works. Rather than ask me to stay away, instead feel welcome to ignore my posts, even if ultimately you sometimes agree with them.....

It would be unfair of you to reply to my posts knowing that I won't reply to yours - and you're wrong about that I read your posts, so I'd suggest, don't read mine, either.

And if you do reply to my posts, it will just make me more pissed with you and think worse about you.

Finally, don't ask me about the reasons for all this, as they are several and very different, and I'm sure you wouldn't like to hear them - even they might be good for you to work with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 05:40
^ Wow! Even the post you’ve just quoted has been edited to say something different from what it said originally. I guess I should thank you for quoting it, or I’d not have realised you’d edited it.

🙄

[EDiT]

[/EDIT]


Edited by nick_h_nz - March 17 2022 at 05:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 07:33
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I've asked you to stay away from me, Nick.

You have, but that’s not how a forum works. Rather than ask me to stay away, instead feel welcome to ignore my posts, even if ultimately you sometimes agree with them.....

It would be unfair of you to reply to my posts knowing that I won't reply to yours - and you're wrong about that I read your posts, so I'd suggest, don't read mine, either.

And if you do reply to my posts, it will just make me more pissed with you and think worse about you.

Finally, don't ask me about the reasons for all this, as they are several and very different, and I'm sure you wouldn't like to hear them - even they might be good for you to work with.

But I can tell you that one of the reasons is that I don't have patience to correct all the factual errors/lies?, you make in your posts when referring to mine, neither do I find them positive to do.


Edited by David_D - March 17 2022 at 16:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 09:34

I must admit, I didn't know that the question of the degree of objectivity in rating criteria
could be so controversial, while my own understanding of "objective" is the characteristics 
which belong to an object, in this case, music. And as told, I certainly do distinguish between the
possibility for objectivity in rating criteria themselves and one's evaluation of them/the rating.

"If to define "objective" as "having existence outside the mind", should rating criteria like production,
song writingoriginality and perfomance not be considered then as objective?

I can tell about my own point of view that I distinguish between these criteria mentioned here themselves and a raters evaluation of them. 
The criteria themselves are at least to a certain degree objective, as defined here, but a rater's evalution of them/rating will always be 
to a certain degree/mostly? subjective."

Besides that, when I'm talking about "a very subjective review", I mean a review where the reviewer basically almost just tells whether he/she likes the music, or at least describes it in a very "good or bad" way.
I'd say that in these cases, the monologue-talk is more about the reviewer's tastes than about the music.


Edited by David_D - March 18 2022 at 08:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote rushaholic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 10:20
@David_D - buddy i still don't have an f-ing clue what you are trying to say here.  7 pages of what???

either you like an album or you don't...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 11:04
Originally posted by rushaholic rushaholic wrote:

either you like an album or you don't...

Well, that used to be my own approach, and still surely mostly is in my own rarely rating, but I must admit that I've began to think about that there could be more in the fact that some albums are not only highest rated, but even much higher than others, and it continues to be so for god knows how long time. Fogging interesting, isn't it? Big smile

And enjoy yourself, buddy! Tongue

patience, my child


Edited by David_D - March 18 2022 at 07:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 12:27

How about some lyrics

Van der Graaf Generator 
        "Childlike Faith in Childhood's End"

Existence is a stage on which we pass
a sleepwalk trick for mind and heart:
it's hopeless, I know,
but onward I must go
and try to make a start
at seeing something more than day to day
survival, chased by final death
If I believed this the sum
of the life to which we've come,
I wouldn't waste my breath
Somehow, there must be more. 
There was a time when more was felt than known
but now, entrenched inside my sett,
in light more mundane,
thought rattles round my brain:
we live, we die...and yet?
..................
        (from the album Still Life (1976))


Edited by David_D - March 17 2022 at 13:34
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