Ok. Which is superior ?

^ That's because a "connoisseur" is an expert in matters of taste. A "connoseur"? Not so much.

rogerthat wrote: M27Barney wrote: Aye. DSOTM...is better produced an far more commercial, since it still sells...but so did abbey rd by the scouse insects and Thriller by that strange geezer.... Of course its a subjective call on whether or not it is crossover prog, AOR, art rock or plain pop...but I still rate every minute of Foxtrot > every minute of DSOTM....as most symphonic prog connoseurs would....😎 And on cue, just when I said this has descended to the level of The Beatles are overrated thread, you confirm this.  Thanks much.

If you mean the concept of that topic, that was done rather tongue-in-cheek and as I said The Beatles was intended to be by way of example, and the title was intended to be provocative. I had hoped in that topic to really have a nuanced discussion on notions of overratedness, and have some absurdist humour, but it didn't go quite as planned (I would like to think that I seem reasonably open-minded in my posts generally). As is said in that topic, it was a reaction to people liberally throwing around terms such as overrated, underrated, best, superior, so I see my little thought-experiment as very different from the approach of this thread. Having spoken so much about such issues in the forum, I thought more people would get where I was coming from.

From a discussion point of view, I thought there was plenty of good fun, interesting posts, and vibrant discussion in the topic, and I appreciated the contributions, including your own. I wasn't really disagreeing with you in it, just coming from a different angle, and sometimes I do play devil's advocate. Different perspectives can be valid, and I like to try to think rather outside of the box (come at things from oblique angles). I guess it can be frustrating. I too often have felt frustrated at boards, but ultimately if I think we are coming together as friends, and really listening to each other, acting respectfully and showing some tolerance and patience, I don't really mind.

By the way,I have really appreciated your presence at the board rogerthat. You do make many really interesting posts, and it doesn't matter if the feeling is not reciprocated as I recognise my own stupidity all too well, and I do get more and more stupid every year.

I enjoyed the discussion, and I feel like various people made genuinely interesting contributions. A good topic should challenge your thinking a bit, and offer different perspectives, and have some good-natured humour sprinkled about generally for my tastes (makes it fun and more socially rewarding for me), and for me that did. My very favourite discussions lead to a synthesis of ideas, while having some humour thrown in to boot. A thread is only as enjoyable as the conversation in it is for me, and for me it was enjoyable and not really a failed experiment even if it didn't quite go as I planned (partially because of adding the poll, which was just for fun). I wouldn't say that I have really created many quality topics or contributed much of value to other peoples topics,and there's something to be said for only focusing on the very best posts and the most interesting of topics, but that's one thread of many, many abject fails that I was rather pleased with from a discussion point of view. My other favourites were my Bertrand Russsell Liberal Decalogue one, my weird folk one, my Christian Vander vs. Chuck Schuldiner one, and my Fugue of the Death Grunters ones.

Thanks for participating in that thread, and sorry if it wasn't sophisticated enough for some tastes. For some who might lament the lack of intellectualism and rationality at the forum with various topics, perhaps create more topics that demonstrate a high level of rationalism and erudition and focus on the most scholastic and cultivated of posts instead of going for the most ignorant, narrow-minded and unrefined of posts. While a thread is a collection of posts and generally should be judged holistically, rather than just the conceit of the topic, I apologise if my premise was ill-thought out and intellectually bereft. As the "host" of that thread, I am totally to blame. A good host should try to make sure that the guests are comfortable, are being well-served, and are having a good time.

Take care. By the way, my wife likes to say to me, "Think first before you speak, then don't speak at all." Sage advice; that's why I love her. I know she only ever really married me for my body.

Edited by Logan - April 06 2020 at 09:49

rogerthat wrote: Logan wrote: rogerthat wrote: M27Barney wrote: Aye. DSOTM...is better produced an far more commercial, since it still sells...but so did abbey rd by the scouse insects and Thriller by that strange geezer.... Of course its a subjective call on whether or not it is crossover prog, AOR, art rock or plain pop...but I still rate every minute of Foxtrot > every minute of DSOTM....as most symphonic prog connoseurs would....😎 And on cue, just when I said this has descended to the level of The Beatles are overrated thread, you confirm this.  Thanks much.   If you mean the concept of that topic, that was done rather tongue-in-cheek and as I said The Beatles was intended to be by way of example, and the title was intended to be provocative. I had hoped in that topic to really have a nuanced discussion on notions of overratedness, and have some absurdist humour, but it didn't go quite as planned (I would like to think that I seem reasonably open-minded in my posts generally). As is said in that topic, it was a reaction to people liberally throwing around terms such as overrated, underrated, best, superior, so I see my little thought-experiment as very different from the approach of this thread. Having spoken so much about such issues in the forum, I thought more people would get where I was coming from. From a discussion point of view, I thought there was plenty of good fun, interesting posts, and vibrant discussion in the topic, and I appreciated the contributions, including your own. I wasn't really disagreeing with you in it, just coming from a different angle, and sometimes I do play devil's advocate. Different perspectives can be valid, and I like to try to think rather outside of the box (come at things from oblique angles). I guess it can be frustrating. I too often have felt frustrated at boards, but ultimately if I think we are coming together as friends, and really listening to each other, acting respectfully and showing some tolerance and patience, I don't really mind. By the way,I have really appreciated your presence at the board rogerthat. You do make many really interesting posts, and it doesn't matter if the feeling is not reciprocated as I recognise my own stupidity all too well, and I do get more and more stupid every year. I enjoyed the discussion, and I feel like various people made genuinely interesting contributions. A good topic should challenge your thinking a bit, and offer different perspectives, and have some good-natured humour sprinkled about generally for my tastes (makes it fun and more socially rewarding for me), and for me that did. My very favourite discussions lead to a synthesis of ideas, while having some humour thrown in to boot. A thread is only as enjoyable as the conversation in it is for me, and for me it was enjoyable and not really a failed experiment even if it didn't quite go as I planned (partially because of adding the poll, which was just for fun). I wouldn't say that I have really created many quality topics or contributed much of value to other peoples topics,and there's something to be said for only focusing on the very best posts and the most interesting of topics, but that's one thread of many, many abject fails that I was rather pleased with from a discussion point of view. My other favourites were my Bertrand Russsell Liberal Decalogue one, my weird folk one, my Christian Vander vs. Chuck Schuldiner one, and my Fugue of the Death Grunters ones. Thanks for participating in that thread, and sorry if it wasn't sophisticated enough for some tastes. For some who might lament the lack of intellectualism and rationality at the forum with various topics, perhaps create more topics that demonstrate a high level of rationalism and erudition and focus on the most scholastic and cultivated of posts instead of going for the most ignorant, narrow-minded and unrefined of posts. While a thread is a collection of posts and generally should be judged holistically, rather than just the conceit of the topic, I apologise if my premise was ill-thought out and intellectually bereft. As the "host" of that thread, I am totally to blame. A good host should try to make sure that the guests are comfortable, are being well-served, and are having a good time. Take care. By the way, my wife likes to say to me, "Think first before you speak, then don't speak at all." Sage advice; that's why I love her. I know she only ever really married me for my body. Oh, I never had a problem with the topic itself or your own contributions to it but some of the posters, most notably the infamous Barking Weasel but some of the others too, went into wild conspiracy theory alleys. That is the part I have difficulty understanding.  Music is not such a serious business , it's not worth destroying one's logical faculties to 'win' a hypothetical band worth contest or something.  I see some of that happening in this thread too.  Words like deception are the give away.  I mean, if anybody thinks Dark Side sucks on merit, I don't have a problem with that opinion even if I disagree completely with that.  But people better not go around kidding themselves that Dark Side is some massive industry deception designed to hook people to liking it against their wishes.  That it is one of the highest selling rock albums is one thing.  But it's also a hot seller to this day and has spent a total of 949 weeks in the Billboard 200 coming up to Jan this year.  How do the conspiracy theorists propose to explain this away?  This is an album that is bound to keep winning over fans.  And that has everything to do with how the album is positioned in terms of the combination of accessibility and emotional and lyrical depth.   Gilmour himself sums it up well, comparing it with their previous work, "The combination of words and music hit a peak. All the music before had not had any great lyrical point to it.  And this one was so clear and concise."

Oh, I gotcha. I'm glad I asked cause that is interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain. People concoct wild reasons and strange conspiracies to justify their opinions, to justify their sense of what should or they would like to be true, and to generally justify their tastes quite often.

Like my signature says "They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views..." Or they construct straw men, various arguments on shaky ground, as well as coming up with all manner of assumptions and speculations to justify the views.

People concoct all manner of things to support their world views (even on the most seemingly trivial of matters), even if it's objectively built like a house of cards on very shaky foundations. And related to this, people are often not comfortable admitting that they don't know things. As Bertrand Russel said "“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that ... the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." A lot of it comes down to insecurity.

EDIT: oops, had missed the quotes being doubled-up.

Edited by Logan - April 07 2020 at 21:19

M27Barney wrote: rogerthat wrote: M27Barney wrote: Aye. DSOTM...is better produced an far more commercial, since it still sells...but so did abbey rd by the scouse insects and Thriller by that strange geezer.... Of course its a subjective call on whether or not it is crossover prog, AOR, art rock or plain pop...but I still rate every minute of Foxtrot > every minute of DSOTM....as most symphonic prog connoseurs would....😎 And on cue, just when I said this has descended to the level of The Beatles are overrated thread, you confirm this.  Thanks much.   Well you may have thrown your knickers at the fab four and screamed till you were sick...but I think they were the first boy-band....the model for the monkies and take that....nothing more, aye the king is stark bollock naked y'all...

Lewian wrote: I don't get the bit about "deception" and masses thinking they get into the "hard stuff". Isn't it just what it is? And I think it got the people because they liked it and could relate to it, not because they'd want to brag about listening to something sophisticated and "hard stuff"... That some went on starting to appreciate more complex stuff because of it is a nice bonus but surely not the album's raison d'etre.

 

richardh: But Floyd had a history of shorter and more accessible songs already. They had done Obscured by Clouds not long before, and much of the first side of Meddle is also of this kind. And then Pink Floyd had not evolved very "naturally" before. The second album of Ummagamma was weird, AHM was very special, Obscured by Clouds was then totally different; they liked change in these days. I read that Waters had wanted to do a concept album earlier, for Dark Side the others finally could agree. There were always different facets to what they wanted to do, but then they wanted their albums to have some consistency in themselves, so they changed quite a bit from album to album. So I can get and respect why you think it's overrated, but I don't think, and I don't see any indication that it is a "deception", anything else than the music they really liked and wanted to do at the time.

Ah, well I have six Gentle Giant CD's in my back catalogue cupboard...for some reason I have not listened to them, or maybe the occaisional track after reading on here about it...none "stuck" snd similar to KC and VDGG have yet to resonate and become part of my prog canon...maybe one day...it took me a while to get into Yes in the late 70's so we shall see..
PEACE...and avoid the covid19 everybody...

Edited by M27Barney - April 08 2020 at 01:04

M27Barney wrote: Aye. Spelling was never my strongest subject and I have an inbuilt mancunian emnity for all scouse err...culture?? I have always refused to be brainwashed by the mass media and especially the music press and the commercial imperitive that is definately anti prog....the three minute sound bite to make money...give me a rambling Stolt guitar solo every time I don the sennheisers. Rather than a fookin tepid boy meets girl pointless catchy tune....and yes the pan heads can have their riot in a music shop as well...better than Hey Jude in that its designed NOT to be commercial, I fookin hate Lennon n McCartney...musical whores...

Pink Floyd were the Beatles of prog. Take that as you will.

Not really. He doesn't like the Beatles and he doesn't like Floyd, so what can he do but agree.

DSOTM is an album I will never consider overrated. If it's someone's favorite Floyd album, or even favorite album in general, I wouldn't bat an eye. I think it's a great choice. But for me, Foxtrot means just a little bit more. I wouldn't call it significantly "better" by any stretch of the imagination (in fact DSOTM is probably at least better produced), but it's my high water mark for great prog albums. It's got everything I could want. The fantastic opener, captivating lyrics, magical sound, folk and hard rock influences, ensnaring melodies, a variety of moods, and Supper's Ready! That album art is wonderful too.