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Toaster Mantis 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
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Points: 5898
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 Posted: March 01 2009 at 13:31 |
 Raff wrote:
As far as I know, CttE was loosely inspired by Herman Hesse's book Siddharta, which of course was about the Buddha. |
Ah, close enough. (pun not intended  ) Don't the other Yes albums also have lots of references to Buddhism? Perhaps their lyrics are just jibberish to non-Buddhists. Anyway, for the most part progressive rock is a genre that's dominated by the instruments meaning lyrics aren't as big a factor as in for example rap or singer-songwriter folk, so it's more a question of the lyrics fitting the rest of the music than the rest of the music fitting the lyrics. This means that the otherworldly atmosphere of much of the genre makes a handy justification for rather weird lyrics.  All that is, of course, before we remember that trying to evaluate lyrics outside the bigger context of the composition is pretty much missing the entire point of music. 
Edited by Toaster Mantis - March 01 2009 at 14:51
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2463
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Posted: March 01 2009 at 13:40 |
Toaster Mantis, you're absolutely right! Yes' TFTO still moves me deeply, and I couldn't care less about any inadequacies in the lyrics. You'll find a similar phenomenon in so-called classical music. Richard Wagner wrote his own lyrics, and he was a third-rate poet at best, but his operas still belong to the greatest ever composed. (Shutting the cave door. )
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~Rael~
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 247
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Posted: March 01 2009 at 14:36 |
fuxi wrote:
~Rael~ wrote:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Poetry has certain goals, but not rules. It used to, and they are unwritten rules at that. I don't care how much you have translated in your job--poetry is a completely subjective art form. Just because you think it is bad doesn't make it so. I don't care if you like it or not, but to say it isn't poetry is idiotic. How could something be poetical and not be poetry, unless you are describing prose as being poetic?And you did say Phil Collin's wrote the lyrics. Maybe not directly, but if you are going to deny that you clearly implied it, you're being difficult for the sake of difficult. |
This is it, Rael! You should read someone's words carefully before you react to them.
1. Lyrics which SEEM poetical (as I said before) can very easily not be poetry. A case in point is the whole of TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS.
2. About Phil Collins I wrote the following: "The point of view keeps changing from the third person singular to the first, and back again - makes me wanna shout to Phil: Come on man, MAKE UP YOUR MIND." I did this, of course, not because I assumed Phil wrote the lyrics in question, but because he SINGS them. The fact that ONE vocalist is employed (singing in the same voice throughout) makes sloppy lyrics sound even more confusing than they seem on the written page.
3. Any kind of poetry I've ever seen, including the most modernistic (Ezra Pound, Tristan Tzara, what-have-you), follows rules (strict or loose, written or unwritten), otherwise it isn't poetry but gibberish.
By the way, the words in your "signature" are not from "Elephant Talk" but from "Indiscipline", although Adrian Belew actually said: "I repeat MYSELF when under stress."
Interdisciplinarily yours,
Fuxi |
Okay, I humbly bow down to you Fuxi. I guess I did not realize I was conversing with THE ONLY authority on poetry. I guess since you KNOW something isn't poetry, only "poetical," no dissenting opinion is valid. Just because I think "One for the Vine" is an excellent piece of poetry, well, that doesn't matter because it isn't poetry after all. I guess I can just throw away all I have learned from my English professors because I have encountered the one and only authority on poetry. Sorry if that sounded crass, but it is the impression you are giving. What are these rules then? I know certain kinds of poetry forms follow rules, but what about free verse? I'm just curious. I will patiently await your reply.
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I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . .
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: March 02 2009 at 14:18 |
fuxi wrote:
Before I hide again in my cave, let me stress once again (for those who are still awake) that "Nonsense" is an honourable genre with a long pedigree. Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonsense_verse
The "Annotated Lamb" is here (a pity there's nothing on SEBTP, though):
http://www.bloovis.com/music/lamb.html
Love on ya!
jv
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No, you don't 
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:34 |
Eloy. Their lyrics are comical most of the time, check out this gem: <span ="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb27, 90, 207; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 13px; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; ">Poseidon's Creation</span> <span ="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb60, 119, 230; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 13px; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; ">When the mighty sons of the spheres beyonddistributed the elements of earththey laid down the foundation-stoneof highest spiritual birth<span ="Apple-style-span" style="text-decoration: underline;">which ever existed since thousands of years</span> but is lost now in the future and pastlightyears away from our daily tearsthose unperceived moments which always lastPoseidon became lord of earthquake and seasmaster of oceans and all their wealthgod of an island, there lived a familywith a daughter of beauty and health, well proportioned too, Atlantis was the island's namegreatest treasury of all times  human eyes didn't ever see the samesilver and gold, fertile hills, woodlands and plains<i style="text-decoration: underline;">it was situated in front of the strait<i style=""> they call "The Columns of Herakles"Kleito was the daughter's namea princely virgin of clearness and loveso Poseidon fell in love with herand built a shrine on the mountains abovesurrounded by a golden walland inside he placed his holy lawSon of god and daughter of earththey created ten sons, human creatureswho've been of supreme beings at birthof pure essence and perfect featureswhat a divine possibility to overcome bad stuff listen what Man did!</span> ... they don't really tell you what man did... not until later when the context is gone, anyway. Hey guys, due to copyright laws we cannot allow complete lyrics, I think Dean usually alters a few, so let's try this ...
Edited by Easy Money - March 05 2009 at 18:05
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mukfire
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 27 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 6
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Posted: March 02 2009 at 21:07 |
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I agree that BF's lyrics are pretty bad, but, like you, I think the music always outweights the lyrics. Which brings us full-circle to the original post: PROG LYRICS ARE ONLY BAD WHEN THEY DETRACT FROM THE MUSIC. If this were not the case, none of us would like Yes, some of the most retarded lyrics in history ("rearrange your liver to the solid mental grace"??).
But I would add another lyrical category for us progheads -- GOOD LYRICS ACTUALLY ADD TO THE MUSIC!. And this is why we all love Genesis. They had it all: great music and great lyrics, i.e., GREAT WRITING (in both areas)!
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mukfire
Forum Newbie
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Posted: March 02 2009 at 21:20 |
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Btw, my post refers to Jake Kobrin's post about Beardfish from Feb 23. Don't know how I ended up on page one.
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el dingo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2008
Location: Norwich UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7053
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 04:42 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
Eloy. Their lyrics are comical most of the time, check out this gem:
<SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana" ="Apple-style-span">Poseidon's Creation</SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana" ="Apple-style-span">When the mighty sons of the spheres beyonddistributed the elements of earththey laid down the foundation-stoneof highest spiritual birth<SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline" ="Apple-style-span">which ever existed since thousands of years</SPAN> but is lost now in the future and pastlightyears away from our daily tearsthose unperceived moments which always lastPoseidon became lord of earthquake and seasmaster of oceans and all their wealthgod of an island, there lived a familywith a daughter of beauty and healthAtlantis was the island's namegreatest treasury of all times human eyes didn't ever see the samesilver and gold, fertile hills, woodlands and plains<I style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline">it was situated in front of the strait they call "The Columns of Herakles"Kleito was the daughter's namea princely virgin of clearness and loveso Poseidon fell in love with herand built a shrine on the mountains abovesurrounded by a golden walland inside he placed his holy lawSon of god and daughter of earththey created ten sons, human creatureswho've been of supreme beings at birthof pure essence and perfect featureswhat a divine possibility to overcome Evilso listen what Man and blah blah blah blah.</SPAN> ... they don't really tell you what man did... not until later when the context is gone, anyway. |
I did have my own entry for worst ever but you´ve stolen my thunder so I´m not going to bother (yes, it was by Jon Anderson)  .
Edited by Easy Money - March 05 2009 at 18:06
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18044
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 14:22 |
Hi,
There is no standard for good or bad ... and please ... there should NEVER be one ...
The issue is not if lyrics are bad or good ... the issue is ... is it being done some justice, or the person singing it just has no clue ... or gives a darn!
There are some godly examples of this ... and the most famous is:
TATATATA ... c'mon you've all heard it a thousand times ...
(... ok ... forget trivia! ... passe game anyway)
Jimi Hendrix singing All Along the Watchtower.
When you hear Bob Dylan singing it, to my ear .,.. it cringes ... but heaing Jimi do it ... sounds great.
So what's the catch?
Poetry is poetry ... words are words ... and theater/film/music can show you real fast that a bad intonation, or a laissez-faire style of singer ... sometimes really kill a composition.
Another example is listening to Opera Arias by different people ... and if you like freighttrains going through your ears (not musical enough for me -- but it does have POWER! all over it) ... you can go hear Pavarotti ... and then you put on someone else and it is quite a different experience ... you can hear Renata Tebaldi sing Turandot and then hear another soprano ... and it doesn't sound right! ...
In the end, I really think ... that saying that Joe's lyrics are bad and Tom's are not, is also a way for us to say ... I don't rhyme with them ... and many of us don't! That's ok ... so Spock's Beard is not your favorite ... but who are we to say that the music they created is not the best for those lyrics or vice versa ... it's their band and that completeness is what makes them who they are ... give them some credit for at least having the intelligence for wanting to do something ... however different it might be to our ear.
Another problem ... in one of my screenplays I had a quick "shot" of a doctor's office door opening and the first thing I described was a flower on a glass with water ... and the flower was fading or wilting ... and the class spent over an hour discussing the symbolic nature of that flower in the glass of water ... blah and blah ... and it was simply a small part of what I saw in my head as a visual rolled ... had nothing to do with anything else or a "meaning" ...
On a deeper/psychic level, the majority of lyrics in pop music (and most musical circles) really have nothing to do with each other ... it's not even a freeform jazz a la Miles where you do your thing, and I do mine and then we do ours! In most cases people think that a string sound does this, and a lead is needed here and we must have this and that ... and ... etc etc ...
One more thing ... a lot of people, specially rock critics and kissers love to trash Jon Anderson's lyrics for Topographic Oceans ... and really this is just one more example of how people respect someone's inner/spiritual view and work. That is sad ... it is a sort of mine is better than yours because I talk about a nice pair of legs and tits ... give it a break ... that was more literary and intelligent ... albeit romantic ... than almost all the rock lyrics ever ... like Layla is about great lyrics ... it's not ... it's great music though!
The same goes for Opera, you name it ... relax ... there were people that wanted to castrate Beethovan for the chorale on the 9th ... and today it's considered great!
Enjoy EACH and EVERY PERSON's different expression. Rock'n'roll and progressive and what not is our time's way of showing it and adding something to the world of music ... sure you and I think that some are better than others ... but I will tell you this ... I would rather hear them ... than NEVER having the opportunity to hear something different ever again ... and die a prisoner of a fascist ear!
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2463
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Posted: March 05 2009 at 08:23 |
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Rael, I don't want to be stuck analysing second-rate lyrics until Doomsday. If you fail to see how awful certain lines are, ("Terror filled their minds with awe" for example) well, good for you! I clearly remember writing the way Phil Collins sings certain lines in "One for the Vine" is just exquisite. So let's just sit back and enjoy the song.
You could say similar things about "The Revealing Science of God":
'They move fast, they tell me / but I just can't believe they really mean to. / There's someone to tell you / a course towards a universal season'
- Lines like these are by no means distinguished, but they move me deeply every time I hear them. (Let me embrace you, Moshkito!)
P.S. I've studied poetry in at least four languages for more than thirty years, and I've taught poetry at two different universities, but I will never claim that I am "the only authority" on poetic matters. One thing I know for certain: WIND AND WUTHERING's lyrics aren't poetry. No-one is ever going to publish them in a book and enjoy them the way people enjoy Petrarch, Keats, Melville or even Sylvia Plath. Oh, and by the way, Rael: crash courses in poetic methodology are probably available from your local college. Sayonara!
Edited by fuxi - March 05 2009 at 13:00
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~Rael~
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Joined: April 11 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 247
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Posted: March 05 2009 at 16:23 |
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Oh, okay. I didn't realize that in order for something to be poetry, it had to be published in a book. Thanks for clearing that up.
You can tell me about all your experience, but you still haven't given any real reasons why "One for the Vine" isn't poetry. As far as I can tell, you don't like it. So it isn't poetry.
And if you want to stop discussing it, fine. You just haven't proven a thing.
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I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . .
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JamesCLN87
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 04 2009
Location: Cork, Ireland
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Posted: March 05 2009 at 17:06 |
Just a quick observation (I'm way out of my depth on the whole poetry argument going on here so won't even try to get involved :D) but I often find its more the way the lyrics are delivered than the way they are written that leaves the impression on me. I for one have never sat down and read the lyrics of an album without having the album on too, I really don't think many lyrics (if any) hold up to that kind of scrutiny. I mean don't some bands try to fit lyrics to music, thus they are forced to make certain choices with what words they pick. An example of this that I'm listening to at the moment is some lyrics at the end of the Glass Prison by Dream Theater. Way off in the distance I saw a door I tried to open I tried forcing with all of my will but still The door wouldn't open ......
Now some parts of that section have what I would consider good lyrics , others have somewhat questionable lyrics, however when I'm listening to the song itself i absolutely love all those lyrics due to the way James delivers them and the rhythem of the words he sings. It is music we are listening to after all, surely the way the words are sang is as important as the words themselves, I mean if you tryed to analyse some of Pink Floyds lyrics without knowing anything about their music you'd probably find a lot of them a bit daft even childlike, same could be said of Peter Gabriel era Genesis yet these two bands are frequently mentioned in conversations surrounding good lyrics. Just an observation...........
Edited by Easy Livin - March 06 2009 at 03:01
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10266
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Posted: March 05 2009 at 17:35 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
Eloy. Their lyrics are comical most of the time, check out this gem:
Poseidon's Creation
When the mighty sons of the spheres beyond
distributed the elements of earth
they laid down the foundation-stone
of highest spiritual birth
which ever existed since thousands of years
.........
... they don't really tell you what man did... not until later when the context is gone, anyway. |
I would have underlined these lines too: they created ten sons, human creaturesand what a divine possibility to overcome Evil
Edited by Easy Livin - March 06 2009 at 03:02
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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~Rael~
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Joined: April 11 2006
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Posted: March 05 2009 at 18:35 |
JamesCLN87 wrote:
Just a quick observation (I'm way out of my depth on the whole poetry argument going on here so won't even try to get involved :D) but I often find its more the way the lyrics are delivered than the way they are written that leaves the impression on me. I for one have never sat down and read the lyrics of an album without having the album on too, I really don't think many lyrics (if any) hold up to that kind of scrutiny. I mean don't some bands try to fit lyrics to music, thus they are forced to make certain choices with what words they pick. An example of this that I'm listening to at the moment is some lyrics at the end of the Glass Prison by Dream Theater.
Way off in the distance I saw a door
I tried to open
I tried forcing with all of my will but still
The door wouldn't open
.......
Now some parts of that section have what I would consider good lyrics , others have somewhat questionable lyrics, however when I'm listening to the song itself i absolutely love all those lyrics due to the way James delivers them and the rhythem of the words he sings. It is music we are listening to after all, surely the way the words are sang is as important as the words themselves, I mean if you tryed to analyse some of Pink Floyds lyrics without knowing anything about their music you'd probably find a lot of them a bit daft even childlike, same could be said of Peter Gabriel era Genesis yet these two bands are frequently mentioned in conversations surrounding good lyrics. Just an observation...........
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In the vast majority of cases, I agree. Usually the music and lyrics have a symbiotic relationship, each feeding off and helping each other. But, there are a few cases where the lyrics work just as good without the music. Bob Dylan and Paul Simon (someone who has published his lyrics) come to mind. They are brilliant. Dylan may even be one of those cases where the music hurts the lyrics. sorry to offend any Dylan fans, but he is just not a good musician, but a brilliant poet. I think another good indication is seeing and reading lyrics before hearing them. I like the lyric above a lot, lots of subtext there. Works very well as a poem, imo. Though, I am sure the music enhances it.
Edited by Easy Livin - March 06 2009 at 03:03
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I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . .
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
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Posted: March 06 2009 at 03:04 |
Another reminder.
PLEASE do not quote full lyrics. For legal reasons, use only brief extracts.
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tamijo
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Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
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Points: 4287
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Posted: March 06 2009 at 10:35 |
I think it can be a turnoff, if you start to notice the bad lyrics, and Yes on the 0010101010 its a turnoff, enough to make me recret i bought the thing, in most cases i dont notice.
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
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Points: 4625
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Posted: March 06 2009 at 12:21 |
^Yes is a part of Ayreon?!
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valravennz
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Posted: March 06 2009 at 20:57 |
This topic started off with a criticism of Ayreon lyrics. I tend to agree that the word "cheese" does come to mind when referring to some of the lyrical content of 001001010. But then I think that the Sci-Fi theme of Ayreon rock operas has run its course, hence the "tiredness" of the lyrical themes and the over-all Sci-Fi rock opera concept. Thank goodness (I hope!) Arjen's new project seems to be steering away from his previous conceptual ideas.
As for the repeated criticism of the lyrics of Yes/Jon Anderson - I disagree with almost everyone. IMO the lyrics, weird as they may be, only ehance the listening experience of most of Yes's work. Take a close listen to the lyrics in "Roundabout" or "Heart of the Sunrise" for example. Totally enigmatic I know, but they fit beautifully with the music. "Mountains come out of the Lake and they stand there..."  |
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence"
- Robert Fripp
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Borris
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Posted: March 07 2009 at 03:05 |
valravennz wrote:
As for the repeated criticism of the lyrics of Yes/Jon Anderson - I disagree with almost everyone. IMO the lyrics, weird as they may be, only ehance the listening experience of most of Yes's work. Take a close listen to the lyrics in "Roundabout" or "Heart of the Sunrise" for example. Totally enigmatic I know, but they fit beautifully with the music. "Mountains come out of the Lake and they stand there..." |
I love "emotion revealed as the Ocean Maid"
I'm with you on this. I like Jon Anderson's lyrics, they are not to be read as poetry, they are lyrics. They fit the music perfectly they have some great images, they are spiritual, if you think spirituality suck you won't like them but that doesn't mean the lyrics suck. The fact that they can't be tied to one particular meaning means that they can be listened to repeatedly.
I don't think Prog lyrics suck any more than other pop/rock lyrics. The fact that they say something more than "honey lets do it on the floor" means they're considered pretentious, personally i think it is better to try something different and ambitious and risk being awkward.
For those who deify Dylan, I love the ambition of his lyrics but i think they are often sloppy, particularly early Dylan up to but not including Blood on the Tracks.
Leonard Cohen is an artist who has taken great care with his lyrics.
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Keltic
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Posted: March 07 2009 at 03:30 |
The one line I often cite as an example of prog pretentiousness ( also read, drivel ) is the opening salvo from Close To The Edge by Yes.
Ironically, it is taken from the track ( and album ) I regard as their finest recording.
Nevertheless, for me, the line, " A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace and rearrange your liver to the solid mental state " takes the biscuit every time.
Mr Jon Anderson must have swallowed a rare batch of Accrington mushrooms when he came up with that one.
Then there's Tales of Topographic Oceans. Woah there !
Is it any wonder Rick Wakeman decided to down tools during one particular concert and eat a curry instead. 
That said, I think they are a marvellous group.
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Bad Lyrics in Prog
