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The Whistler 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006
Location: LA, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 7113
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 Posted: July 20 2007 at 01:03 |
Yeah right, since when have you been a big Genesis dude?
And, hey, wait a second...where's Big Generator? 90210 there at least gave us "Owner of a Lonely Heart." Which, I'll admit, I was shocked when I learned it was by Yes, but still an okay song.
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65266
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 01:08 |
 The Whistler wrote:
Yeah right, since when have you been a big Genesis dude? |
love 'em.. they're just over-reviewed/discussed, and there are so many other bands to discover.
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006
Location: LA, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 7113
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 03:45 |
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Yeah, Genesis is pretty sweet...never really had a chance to say that.
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 04:54 |
No album killed prog. It is alive and well. If you allow trends or certain releases influence your taste in prog or your perception of it's longevity as a genre, then you are sadly misguided.
peace nevertheless!!
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Eetu Pellonpaa
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 05:04 |
I heard a music critic describing one of the first early NAPALM DEATH concerts as "The end of music". Maybe prog went away then too... 
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65266
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 05:06 |
 I'm sure someone said the same thing of Elvis
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 05:51 |
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Prog may not be dead, but it's obvious that, by the end of the 1970s, most of the seminal bands were completely exhausted and bereft of ideas - e.g. Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant, Caravan... It's still a matter of debate if the flame of symphonic prog has actually been kept burning. Virtually all post-1980 symphonic bands have been criticised for lack of originality by some of Progarchives' seasoned reviewers.
At the same time, it seems that, at the end of the seventies, the stupidity of rock journalists, the greediness of record companies, and maybe even the zeitgeist killed off some of the most interesting minor-league bands. Otherwise adventurous bands like NATIONAL HEALTH would have flourished! As Jonathan Coe puts it in his liner notes to HATWISE CHOICE: "Has anyone noticed how the careers of the true dinosaurs of rock survived the punk revolution, while it was the cleverer, more intriguing talents who got swept away?"
Oh well, at least there are at least SOME excellent bands (Kenso, for example) who have kept the spirit of symphonic prog-fusion alive...
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 05:53 |
fuxi wrote:
Prog may not be dead, but it's obvious that, by the end of the 1970s, most of the seminal bands were completely exhausted and bereft of ideas - e.g. Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant, Caravan... It's still a matter of debate if the flame of symphonic prog has actually been kept burning. Virtually all post-1980 symphonic bands have been criticised for lack of originality by some of Progarchives' seasoned reviewers.
At the same time, it seems that, at the end of the seventies, the stupidity of rock journalists, the greediness of record companies, and maybe even the zeitgeist killed off some of the most interesting minor-league bands. Otherwise adventurous bands like NATIONAL HEALTH would have flourished! As Jonathan Coe puts it in his liner notes to HATWISE CHOICE: "Has anyone noticed how the careers of the true dinosaurs of rock survived the punk revolution, while it was the cleverer, more intriguing talents who got swept away?"
Oh well, at least there are at least SOME excellent bands (Kenso, for example) who have kept the spirit of symphonic prog-fusion alive... |
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What?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20248
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 06:10 |
BaldFriede wrote:
You have your dates wrong, Sean Trane. Vivaldi is on their debut album, which is from 1969 (and not, as the database falsely says, from 1970). So please treat them fairly.
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I meant Ultra-Vivaldi as well (dates from 72). I don't see where I'm being unfair!! And they've lived on that track for their whole career.
mrgd wrote:
Well, we CURVED AIR fans are not going to be able to influence Sean after all this time. BaldFriede, I and others will be peeing against the wind on this one.
Yes, at times, Sonja can be a little pitchy (to say the least), however, I saw her live with CA almost too many years back to recall [in 77 at Warwick University] and as a bit of a stickler for 'in tune ' vocals, I was far from offended. I was impressed with her power [not to mention her revealing costume].
On the CA 'Masters From the Vault' DVD , which, I concede, is not all that great unles you are a fan, she handles the folkish ballad 'Melinda More or Less' where she accompanies herself on acoustic guitar extremely well- nice mood, feel and absolutely no pitch problems there albeit a little emotionless in delivery. Actually I think that TV special is probably the best statement from CA
As an unabashed fan of 'Air Cut', on that album [ which I highly recommend ] she is successful in capturing many moods - hard rocking to soft and ethereal again, without pitch problems. >> Not according to me, if you read my review again.I think I stay fair enough withthe album, even if I am severe with the rating.
In saying that, the live versions of 'Propositions' I have heard do demonstrate what Sean is talking about Thanks  . Harsh, strident and pitchy, but you can't dismiss her as a singer just for that. As I said I don't like Janita Haan for the same reasons.
But to suggest all Curved Air albums should be on a list of albums that bear some responsibilty for killing prog , sir , I won't have it! ! ! This was a blatant provocation that followed the spirit of the thread!! It should be taken as second degree. Just as for Renaissance, whose only fault is that their later 70's music is sleep inducing.
[If sub- par singing is a test of this, what is Andy Tillison doing to prog with his band 'The Tangent'. Let's get Guy Manning on the job more before prog comes crashing down. { Sean , is that perverse or what....}]!
^^^^^^
I'm not sure what to make of this, though! I've not written that!
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 06:35 |
Sean Trane wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
You have your dates wrong, Sean Trane. Vivaldi is on their debut album, which is from 1969 (and not, as the database falsely says, from 1970). So please treat them fairly.
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I meant Ultra-Vivaldi as well (dates from 72). I don't see where I'm being unfair!! And they've lived on that track for their whole career.
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Sean, you definitely don't have a sense for irony. Just as the irony of the "cha-cha-cha" section in VdGG's "Sleepwalker" escapes you, so does the irony of "Ultra Vivaldi". The band toy with "Vivaldi" here; it is all tongue in cheek. As to the band living on "Vivaldi": Well, everyone expected Genesis to play "Supper's Ready" or Yes to play "Close to the Edge" on one of their concerts. Would you say they lived on these songs?
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20248
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 06:47 |
BaldFriede wrote:
Sean, you definitely don't have a sense for irony. Just as the irony of the "cha-cha-cha" section in VdGG's "Sleepwalker" escapes you, so does the irony of "Ultra Vivaldi". The band toy with "Vivaldi" here; it is all tongue in cheek.
As to the band living on "Vivaldi": Well, everyone expected Genesis to play "Supper's Ready" or Yes to play "Close to the Edge" on one of their concerts. Would you say they lived on these songs?
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Supper's Ready hasn't been played since 77 and before that since 74. And Close To The Edge was'nt from 79 until 95. And both tracks were their own works, not Vivaldi's    . It only took one blow to drive that nail home (a bit of bad faith, but I'm trying to get you to accept my opinion as valid, just like I see yours valid ! )
I fully understand the irony of both your examples, but I am free not to like it. In the cha-cha-cha case it ruins the song (although I've come to terms with it since I saw them playing it live).
In the case of CA, it just adds to the lameness of the band. I actually like Marie Antoinette, though
Edited by Sean Trane - July 20 2007 at 06:48
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 06:57 |
Sean Trane wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Sean, you definitely don't have a sense for irony. Just as the irony of the "cha-cha-cha" section in VdGG's "Sleepwalker" escapes you, so does the irony of "Ultra Vivaldi". The band toy with "Vivaldi" here; it is all tongue in cheek.
As to the band living on "Vivaldi": Well, everyone expected Genesis to play "Supper's Ready" or Yes to play "Close to the Edge" on one of their concerts. Would you say they lived on these songs?
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Supper's Ready hasn't been played since 77 and before that since 74. And Close To The Edge was'nt from 79 until 95. And both tracks were their own works, not Vivaldi's. It only took one blow to drive that nail home (a bit of bad faith, but I'm trying to get you to accept my opinion as valid, just like I see yours valid ! )
I fully understand the irony of both your examples, but I am free not to like it. In the cha-cha-cha case it ruins the song (although I've come to terms with it since I saw them playing it live).
In the case of CA, it just adds to the lameness of the band. I actually like Marie Antoinette, though |
Sean, Genesis ceased to exist as a prog band after 1977. Anyway, I was not talking of what the bands actually do play but what the fans expect. One will get you ten that most Yes fans will go home not fully satisfied if Yes fail to play "Close to the Edge" on a concert of theirs.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Firefly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 384
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 07:51 |
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
I heard a music critic describing one of the first early NAPALM DEATH concerts as "The end of music". Maybe prog went away then too... |
Wow. I love those dudes.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20248
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 08:37 |
BaldFriede wrote:
Sean, Genesis ceased to exist as a prog band after 1977. Anyway, I was not talking of what the bands actually do play but what the fans expect. One will get you ten that most Yes fans will go home not fully satisfied if Yes fail to play "Close to the Edge" on a concert of theirs.
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But Genesis fans expected to hear Gabriel stuff well after Gabriel left.
As for real CA fans, I'm not sure they really cared for Vivaldi or Ultra-Vivaldi. Among my friend liking them, they all hate that song, they think it gave the band a bad image (I won't contradict them either  )
OK, Friede, 
You and Jean are my favorite lesbians (besides me ), so far from me the idea of not wanting to talk to you in length (we actually miss you around a lot) , but we're going nowhere quick with this debate.
So I propose a truce. CA did not kill prog, and neither did Sonja.
Settled? 
Edited by Sean Trane - July 20 2007 at 09:43
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 09:43 |
Sean Trane wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Sean, Genesis ceased to exist as a prog band after 1977. Anyway, I was not talking of what the bands actually do play but what the fans expect. One will get you ten that most Yes fans will go home not fully satisfied if Yes fail to play "Close to the Edge" on a concert of theirs.
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But Genesis fans expected to hear Gabriel stuff well after Gabriel left.
As for real CA fans, I'm not sure they really cared for Vivaldi or Ultra-Vivaldi. Among my friend liking them, they all hate that song, they think it gave the band a bad image (I won't contradict them either ) |
At the time of their release most CA fans were immediately impressed by Darryl Way's electric violin and thus liked the various Vivaldi's, (at least they were the talking point of the ablums when I was at school), however I do not think they have travelled well, so that 30 years on they do not sound so remarkable. Personnally I prefer their songs, like It Happened Today, Backstreet Luv and Marie Antoinette.
Edited by darqdean - July 20 2007 at 16:36
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 14:35 |
bluetailfly wrote:
Baldfriede, I know we butted heads on this earlier, but I think it's an pretty clear to prog historians that Animals was one of the best albums Pink Floyd ever made, and one of the best prog albums ever made. If anything, it strengthened prog at a time when prog needed it.
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Hey, I remember when Animals was released. I know that a lot of people think Animals was a strong release NOW (I certainly do), but back when it was released a lot of people were rather negative about it.
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 16:01 |
The Whistler wrote:
Yeah, Genesis is pretty sweet...never really had a chance to say that. |
Are you allowed to say that? would mr.Anderson allow you?
Poor old ELP, they never stand a chance in any of these poll's, I think all of us need a nice dose of tarkus. 
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bluetailfly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1383
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 16:48 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
bluetailfly wrote:
Baldfriede, I know we butted heads on this earlier, but I think it's an pretty clear to prog historians that Animals was one of the best albums Pink Floyd ever made, and one of the best prog albums ever made. If anything, it strengthened prog at a time when prog needed it.
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Hey, I remember when Animals was released. I know that a lot of people think Animals was a strong release NOW (I certainly do), but back when it was released a lot of people were rather negative about it. |
Hey, I remember when Animals was released too!  And I remember that it was a momentous occasion at the time, and everyone I knew was blown away by it. I don't recall any previous Floyd fans abandoning ship over Animals. Of course there were those who didn't like it, but they didn't like WYWH or DSOTM or Meddle either; they were too hung up on Gong and stuff like that...
Edited by bluetailfly - July 20 2007 at 17:08
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"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."
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bluetailfly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1383
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 16:51 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
The Whistler wrote:
Yeah, Genesis is pretty sweet...never really had a chance to say that. |
Are you allowed to say that? would mr.Anderson allow you?
Poor old ELP, they never stand a chance in any of these poll's, I think all of us need a nice dose of tarkus. |
I don't think ELP as a whole is being judged here, just "Love Beach" which deserves the severe lambasting it is getting.
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"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 16:52 |
bluetailfly wrote:
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
bluetailfly wrote:
Baldfriede, I know we butted heads on this earlier, but I think it's an pretty clear to prog historians that Animals was one of the best albums Pink Floyd ever made, and one of the best prog albums ever made. If anything, it strengthened prog at a time when prog needed it.
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Hey, I remember when Animals was released. I know that a lot of people think Animals was a strong release NOW (I certainly do), but back when it was released a lot of people were rather negative about it. |
Hey, I remember when Animals was released too! And I remember that it was a momentous occasion at the time, and everyone I knew was blown away by it. I don't recall any previous Floyd fans abandoning ship over Animals. Of course there were those who didn't like it, but they didn't like WYWH or DSOTM or Meddle either. |
There was some negative press reaction as I recall, but we all ignored it and put it down to the typically cynical backlash that still goes on today once a band reaches a certain level of success.
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
The Album That Killed Prog?
