the world just gets weirder

I thought I'd make a little summary of my previous posts, to clarify my position on this matter.

1. They might as well teach Tolkiens version of the creation of the world. Just as relevant

2. The Darwin theory is not all proven (though IMO very accurate), the theory of intelligent design, however is completely unfounded. No proof other than speculation and man's inability to grasp the complexity of life.

It's to difficult to comprehend, therefor it has to be the act of a god

the Darwin evolution theory requeres no faith, basic understanding of cellular/moleculair biologie is all you need

3. Law of the numbers.

The Universe is infinitly great, with infinite stars, with infinite planets which could contain life.

Add to that the buildingblocks of life (which is for all we know organic-matter), there is proof of organic molecules being the residual trash from emerging or dying stars.

So there's bound to (0.0000000001% of infinitive is infinitive) be an infinitive number of Life-sustainable planets, with all the right ingredients for life to begin.

3b.. One of Men's flaws is, we think we are ment to be, or how can it be possible that we exist, for the odds of us existing is 1 in a zillion, but we forget, we are one of the possible products to come out of this chance (as mentioned above). In other words we use reversed deduction, trying to explain the most complex of things coming out of most simple beginnings, while the other way around (starting simple to more complex, to almost incomprehensively complex) would be easier to understand and follow.

Intelligent design suggests that we are the intended outcome of evolution, while in fact we are just an odd product of possible outcomes.

4. To cover all theories is a good thing. But discuss them in the place where they belong.

Science-class is about science, eg. theories, supported by facts, and empirical data, no religion, or believes have a place in that.

Philosophical/religious debate. covers the interpretation of those facts and theories in the religious/philosophical context, and should be taught in the corresponding classes.

5. Every person or group has the right not to believe facts or oppose them with believe, but to teach the youngsters from those groups not the facts as we know them, you deprive them of their right to choose. Ignorance belongs in the dark-ages not in our schools.

6. My personal believe entails a complete separation between religious and scientific topics.

Scientific theories and facts can/may back up certain religious thoughts (though by my knowledge no hard scientific evidence exists for any religion, (not speaking of natural disasters like the flood, which are likely to become incorporated within any religion), but believe can't back up scientific theories, you need empirically proven facts for that.

And like I said a million times before, those scientific facts can be discussed on a philosophical/religious debate to comprehend there meaning in a religious context.

yes alternative creation theories have a place in public schools, but only in the appropriate context and appropriate classes.

Goose wrote:

Joking aside though, I have a lot of respect for someone who's prepared to do that. I'm just glad I'm not going to get a job where people expect me to lie!

Please Goose don't change things, if I had to teach Marxism even when I'm absolutely against it and don't even believe in it it's because Marxism existed, sadly it was one of the predominant systems in the XX Century. If I don't teach it in a history class I would be lying.

But if I teach the principle of the systen and clearly say I believe it's a terrible system that never really worked and IMO Democracy is much better, then I'm not lying.

The case of Creationism is the same, the theory EXISTS, it may or may not have any value for you or me, but not teaching it is ignoring part of the hystory of the world and 83% of the population that believes in it (According to Carl Sagan the number is around 93% that believes in Creationism), but if youteach it and say I believe it's BS and has no scientific support, then tou're being more honest than the teacher that just ignores it.

I studied in a Catholic school (Priests from USA) and of course they taught me Creationism, but also learned about evolution with a teacher that clearly believed in this theory, the consequence is that I believe in Evolution but also believe there's a God that guided that process, something that no scientist can prove it's false because nobody can prove God exists, but neither anybody can prove God doesn't exists.

 I'm starting to believe that some religous schools are more open minded than public schools.

Iván

How interesting. I think the underlying fact here is that evolution is a threat to creationism. It is very easy indeed to explain all the "unexplainable" as God's work. Organized religion is the most corrupt institution every comprised by man. And yes, folks, man invented religion. I grew up Roman Catholic. The RC faith is the most disfunctional family in the universe. I find it interesting, indeed, that more people commit mass murders in the name of their God, twsting and corrupting the teachings to justify their actions. How can anything said with regard to these so called sects be taken seriously when they just dismiss anything that is contrary to what they believe. personally the idea of humans just being created by a supreme being makes me laugh.

Creationism sounds about as accurate to me as DallasBryan's theory of the evolution of Prog.

Just kidding- DB is a lot more accurate than that...he's at least up to the level of Intelligent Design.

ivan_2068 wrote: The idea makes you laugh Quacky, but 83% of the population of your country take it seriously. Even if you don't believe it, it's more dangerous not to teach Creationism, because fanatic fundamentalists will have an excuse to say there's a complot against religion.¨ Probably the new born Christians will win the case in Supreme Court, because they didn't had the right to ban any theory, but most of all because politics move courts and no Supreme Judge will put his charge and a lot of money in risk when 83% of the population are with Creationism or a guided evolution. If schools clearly explain BOTH theories, I'm sure 90% of the students will decide for Evolution. Iván

My pal Quacky lives in Canada, Ivan. Don't you live in Brazil?

Isn't that an American stat?

Generally, Canadians are less right-wing, more liberal (more likely to legalize gay marriage, decriminalize pot, etc) and less likely to be religious fundamentalists, so I doubt if that stat you cite would apply to us.

Our "Conservatives" are more like their DEMOCRATS. We don't really have a "Bible belt," either.... We have socialized medicine, etc.

Many right-wing U.S. pundits consider us to be a bunch of namby-pamby "pinkos."

Edited by Peter

emdiar wrote: The band I play in contains a Canadian, a Californian, two English and a Cloggie (Dutch). Our engineer is also Canadian. Our agent is also Californian. On tour the Brits amongst us (we are but two) and Cannucks tend to get on like a house on fire. Conversations are stimulating, personalities are grounded, kindred spirits abound. Our two Californian collegues, on the otherhand, are completely unintelligible at all times, and have mastered the art of talking incessantly without actually ever saying anything at all. They both claim to have been abducted by alliens (I'm deadly serious!!) and believe any new-age crap that's going. (still love 'em both, and they keep the Cloggie crew amused.)  How anyone could confuse Canadians with Americans is beyond me, They're closer to Brits imo. Please don't take offence Californians, it takes all sorts and I wouldn't swap our two, but did someone once dump a few hundred gallons of LSD in your water supply?

Well, you are talking about California...the most liberal and weirdest state in the US. Danbo is probably about as normal as they come in California. Him and The Governator that is.

Garion81 wrote: emdiar wrote: Please don't take offence Californians, it takes all sorts and I wouldn't swap our two, but did someone once dump a few hundred gallons of LSD in your water supply?    I think it is called the Sun and warm temperatures.  Canada and Brittan gets so little of it they don't know what it is like to be normal like us Californians.   BTW are these guys native Californians or transplants.  I find, at least in my generation, the more grounded folks are the ones born here.

Oh yeah...forgot about you Garion. You're kind of normal too.

California could be split into three seperate states: Los Angeles, San Francisco and everywhere else.

Living in Vegas, we get a lot of Californians and New Yorkers. I was slightly surprised to find the Californians didn't live up to the stereotypical laidback and openminded image; in fact, a good portion of them are just as aggressive and overbearing (in a more soulless and superficial fashion) as us Yankees. My trips to various locations in (Southern) California were like visits to a theme park or museum exhibit developed by aliens to show how humans lived...everything seemed artificial and devoid of character. Tacky, glossy, and materialistic, like the 50s had never ended there...

Now, Northern California is absolutely another story. SF is gratifyingly complex and gritty and the countryside is beautiful, especially Marin county. It seems to have much more of a connection to the neighboring Pacific Northwest. I'd be happy to live there, except that then I'd have to say I was a Californian.

Not that SoCal isn't pretty too...or rather, could be- if most of the people and buildings were forcibly evacuated.

James Lee wrote: My trips to various locations in (Southern) California were like visits to a theme park or museum exhibit developed by aliens to show how humans lived...everything seemed artificial and devoid of character. Tacky, glossy, and materialistic, like the 50s had never ended there...

 

You make that observation about So Cal and you live where?

 

James Lee wrote: Not that SoCal isn't pretty too...or rather, could be- if most of the people and buildings were forcibly evacuated.

If ya Damn Yanks would stop moving out here there would't be any of that

 

Edited by Garion81