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Dean 
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 Posted: November 04 2011 at 18:30 |
 It never was a pure genre and never will be. Progressive Rock is a fusion of genres built upon a pure mainstream foundation - that eclectic fusion of styles and genres of music into and around basic rock structures defines what prog is and therefore makes it impossible to define - Prog is one giant melting pot and for it to be kept alive it must and will keep melding with more diverse styles, flavours and subgenres of music.
The two examples of Neo Prog and Tech/Extreme are in effect exceptions that prove the rule, or at least polar opposites in the subset of music we call Prog. Their relative unpopularity can mean whatever you want it to mean so can be used to illustrate whatever you want it to illustrate, however no one could every accuse Tech/Ext with "melting with mainstream"
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 04 2011 at 21:03 |
 Dean wrote:
It never was a pure genre and never will be. Progressive Rock is a fusion of genres built upon a pure mainstream foundation - that eclectic fusion of styles and genres of music into and around basic rock structures defines what prog is and therefore makes it impossible to define - Prog is one giant melting pot and for it to be kept alive it must and will keep melding with more diverse styles, flavours and subgenres of music.
The two examples of Neo Prog and Tech/Extreme are in effect exceptions that prove the rule, or at least polar opposites in the subset of music we call Prog. Their relative unpopularity can mean whatever you want it to mean so can be used to illustrate whatever you want it to illustrate, however no one could every accuse Tech/Ext with "melting with mainstream" |
But still Prog was always a cult genre, totally independent of mainstream music (with a couple of exceptions as Pink Floyd) and rejected. IMO Tech/Extr PM is clearly melted with mainstream Metal, Thrash and whatever metal, as a fact is a hybrid between Prog and Metal (At least in my opinion).
Iván.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 04 2011 at 21:13
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Dean
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 04:57 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
But still Prog was always a cult genre, totally independent of mainstream music (with a couple of exceptions as Pink Floyd) and rejected. |
Not in the beginning it wasn't. While it eschewed commercialism, it wasn't a cult genre by any means and it certainly was not totally independant of mainstream music. There is this strange mysticism that's grown-up around 70s Prog (mainly by people who weren't there) that simply isn't true.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
IMO Tech/Extr PM is clearly melted with mainstream Metal, Thrash and whatever metal, as a fact is a hybrid between Prog and Metal (At least in my opinion). |
No, not really, that's another example of chosing a criteria that means whatever you want it to mean to illustrate a point - of the the three Metal subgenres Prog Metal is the closest to mainstream Metal and that is by far the most popular of the three here, Extreme, by its very nature is not mainstream anything.
Edited by Dean - November 05 2011 at 05:42
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 05:18 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I hopé I would never use Neo Prog as an example.
My only point is that if we keep melting with mainstream, we will loose the only think that kept us alive...Being a pure genre with a defined personality.
Iván |
I don't reckon branches have much of a life expectancy after they leave the tree. Music is an indivisible whole that has only been demarcated by an engineered brand patriotism foisted on gullible consumers. To use your own terminology, melting with the mainstream is the only thing that kept what we recognise as Prog artists alive/viable until such time as their relatively recent renaissance when the marketplace became more receptive to challenging music. Purity is a dangerous concept at the best of times, we are certainly not here to ethnically cleanse your phantasm of 'purebreed Prog' from what you deem the flea bitten mainstream mongrels. (Scottish proverb: Dogs get fleas, fleas get poodles)
Edited by ExittheLemming - November 05 2011 at 05:38
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 10:19 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I hopé I would never use Neo Prog as an example.
My only point is that if we keep melting with mainstream, we will loose the only think that kept us alive...Being a pure genre with a defined personality.
Iván |
I don't reckon branches have much of a life expectancy after they leave the tree. Music is an indivisible whole that has only been demarcated by an engineered brand patriotism foisted on gullible consumers. To use your own terminology, melting with the mainstream is the only thing that kept what we recognise as Prog artists alive/viable until such time as their relatively recent renaissance when the marketplace became more receptive to challenging music. Purity is a dangerous concept at the best of times, we are certainly not here to ethnically cleanse your phantasm of 'purebreed Prog' from what you deem the flea bitten mainstream mongrels. (Scottish proverb: Dogs get fleas, fleas get poodles)
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But the loss of identity destroys in a relatively short term.
I said this many times and many disagree (what is OK), Punk vanished soon, today you don't see a pure Punk band, call it alternative, Indie, Emo or whatever, but it's no longer Punk and is miles away from the original genre. The day artists like Blondie and The Go Go's called themselves Punk, the genre had no true identity.
Disco Music was totally ephemerous, blended with all existing Pop and died lets say in six years, today doesn't exist, and it was a monster.
Prog remained more or less faithful to it's roots, and survived, despite it was ignored by mainstream radios and even attacked as pedantic and pompous, but if we keep adding every rock and Pop artist of the 70's as if it was Prog,we will soon don't know where Proig ends and Pop starts, we would have lost all the identity that kept us alive.
I heard many times "Let's add X band because it will bring more people"...That's a fallacy, I don¿t believe many people came here for Tori Amos to stay...For God's sake, her most popular album has 16 reviews.
People who come here knowing more or less what prog is, with knowledge of the basic bands, are the ones who stay.
I may be wrong, but that's my opinion.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 05 2011 at 10:30
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octopus-4
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 10:27 |
I was sure that sooner or later Tori Amos would have been mentioned  However I still don't kow what makes her prog...compared to her Robert Plant is Peter Gabriel....
Let me add a trivia, years ago in Italy on a musical TV channel prior to MTV, a guy was going to introduce Robert Plant who was guesting the show to present his new album. Well, the man said "Now the moment that we all were waiting for. Ladies and Gentleman: Peter Gabriel!!!" so Robert Plant laughed and said "Hey what did it happen to my hair?"
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 10:32 |
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Octopus, there are at least 10 names I can mention, but they surely will attract harsh replies.
Iván
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Mellotron Storm
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:37 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I hopé I would never use Neo Prog as an example.
My only point is that if we keep melting with mainstream, we will loose the only think that kept us alive...Being a pure genre with a defined personality.
Iván |
I don't reckon branches have much of a life expectancy after they leave the tree. Music is an indivisible whole that has only been demarcated by an engineered brand patriotism foisted on gullible consumers. To use your own terminology, melting with the mainstream is the only thing that kept what we recognise as Prog artists alive/viable until such time as their relatively recent renaissance when the marketplace became more receptive to challenging music. Purity is a dangerous concept at the best of times, we are certainly not here to ethnically cleanse your phantasm of 'purebreed Prog' from what you deem the flea bitten mainstream mongrels. (Scottish proverb: Dogs get fleas, fleas get poodles)
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But the loss of identity destroys in a relatively short term.
I said this many times and many disagree (what is OK), Punk vanished soon, today you don't see a pure Punk band, call it alternative, Indie, Emo or whatever, but it's no longer Punk and is miles away from the original genre. The day artists like Blondie and The Go Go's called themselves Punk, the genre had no true identity.
Disco Music was totally ephemerous, blended with all existing Pop and died lets say in six years, today doesn't exist, and it was a monster.
Prog remained more or less faithful to it's roots, and survived, despite it was ignored by mainstream radios and even attacked as pedantic and pompous, but if we keep adding every rock and Pop artist of the 70's as if it was Prog,we will soon don't know where Proig ends and Pop starts, we would have lost all the identity that kept us alive.
I heard many times "Let's add X band because it will bring more people"...That's a fallacy, I don¿t believe many people came here for Tori Amos to stay...For God's sake, her most popular album has 16 reviews.
People who come here knowing more or less what prog is, with knowledge of the basic bands, are the ones who stay.
I may be wrong, but that's my opinion.
Iván
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Your comment makes sense to me Ivan about the people who stay being the ones who are already into Prog. I used to think that maybe with ZEPPELIN,SABBATH and MAIDEN being on here that it would possibly attract new fans to Prog if they happened upon this site but i now i think that's a long shot at best and it's certainly not a reason to add an artist because they might draw new fans to Prog.I'm sure artists like Amos and Bjork weren't added because of this but some would use that reasoning as an excuse for them being here.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:43 |
Mellotron Storm wrote:
Your comment makes sense to me Ivan about the people who stay being the ones who are already into Prog. I used to think that maybe with ZEPPELIN,SABBATH and MAIDEN being on here that it would possibly attract new fans to Prog if they happened upon this site but i now i think that's a long shot at best and it's certainly not a reason to add an artist because they might draw new fans to Prog.I'm sure artists like Amos and Bjork weren't added because of this but some would use that reasoning as an excuse for them being here. |
Not only the ones who are already in Prog,. but also the ones who come here wanting to learn about Prog. People who come here for Tori Amos, Laurie Anderson or Robert Plant won't stay for Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant, etc, they will make a couple of reviews or rate a couple of albums of their favorite artists with 5 stars and then leave for ever But some people interested in Prog will believe this site has lost credibility, and believe me, I read that a couple of times. Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 05 2011 at 11:49
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Mellotron Storm
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:51 |
^ Agreed. And in my case it was this wanting to learn about Prog that drew me here and i haven't left.
I'm not sure if i'm "getting" this idea that Neo-Prog is the purest form of Prog.I always considered it to be the more commercial aspect of GENESIS and YES.And don't get me wrong i love MARILLION and a lot of Neo-Prog but to me Symphonic Prog is what i think of when i think of Prog in it's original form.And sure it took it's cues from Classical,Folk and on and on but when you mention Prog to a music fan i think GENESIS,KING CRIMSON,ELP and YES would be the bands that would come to their mind if they are familiar with the term Progressive Rock.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:52 |
Dean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
IMO Tech/Extr PM is clearly melted with mainstream Metal, Thrash and whatever metal, as a fact is a hybrid between Prog and Metal (At least in my opinion).
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No, not really, that's another example of chosing a criteria that means whatever you want it to mean to illustrate a point - of the the three Metal subgenres Prog Metal is the closest to mainstream Metal and that is by far the most popular of the three here, Extreme, by its very nature is not mainstream anything. |
Maybe reading pasts posts will help, many people don't find Prog connection in most Prog Metal,. Extreme or whatever} except by people who already were into Metal. I believe there are lots of Prog Metal bands in the three related genres, but when i listen some, don't find the Prog element, just metal bands with a lot of keys. Maybe not mainstream, but you can't tell where the metal ends, if you take Genesis, Shadow Circus, or Jethro Tull, you know where the Classical or Folk component ends and where the Prog Rock starts, so IMO most PM bands are hybrids. Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 05 2011 at 11:58
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Dean
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 14:20 |
(Patronising so early in the discussion, how sweet ). Many people just don't like Metal so will never see a Prog connection - I don't see the Prog connection in many Jazz Rock/Fusion additions, then I don't know much about Jazz (or care for it very much) so I'm not going to make a big case about it - people who are into Jazz do see the connection and that's good enough for me, however I do know folk, metal, classical and pop so I can see the connection in Prog bands that infuse those elements into their music.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I believe there are lots of Prog Metal bands in the three related genres, but when i listen some, don't find the Prog element, just metal bands with a lot of keys. |
The same case can be made for many bands in non-Metal subgenres... in many of those they even lack the "lots of keys" element too.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Maybe not mainstream, but you can't tell where the metal ends, if you take Genesis, Shadow Circus, or Jethro Tull, you know where the Classical or Folk component ends and where the Prog Rock starts, so IMO most PM bands are hybrids. |
That's the least convincing argument (and most contrived) I've ever read on this subject - To say that you can tell where the Classical or Folk component ends and where the Prog Rock starts on Genesis or Jethro Tull is not apparent on any Genesis or Tull track I've ever heard - that they hybridise those elements seamlessly is what defines them - the pastoral English folk of Genesis is so melded into the Rock element that it is impossible to "see the join".
All Prog bands are hybrids - that's the point.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 15:12 |
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Well Dean, it's my opinion, you're entitled to disagree, it may sound lame to you, but I'm sure others will agree.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 05 2011 at 16:27
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Man With Hat
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 16:15 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I hopé I would never use Neo Prog as an example.
My only point is that if we keep melting with mainstream, we will loose the only think that kept us alive...Being a pure genre with a defined personality.
Iván |
Ivan...you have made the best posts in this thread. 
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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lucas
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 16:20 |
64 % of voters think he is not prog at all.
Time to remove Robbie from PA !!!
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 16:30 |
lucas wrote:
64 % of voters think he is not prog at all.
Time to remove Robbie from PA !!! |
You certainly can't argue with the numbers: 0.09% of PA's members think Robert Plant is not Prog at all  BTW I don't think he's Prog either but heartily loathe the chap (so I haven't heard much of his solo material)
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NotAProghead
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 17:47 |
lucas wrote:
64 % of voters think he is not prog at all.
Time to remove Robbie from PA !!! |
OK, if we have nothing to do let's revise the entire PA database. 
Though I prefer all this energy to be directed to something more productive. Mr. Plant is here, people who included him are not idiots. Relax and take things easy.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Dean
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 18:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Well Dean, it's my opinion, you're entitled to disagree, it may sound lame to you, but I'm sure others will agree.
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Pardon? Which bit would people agree with? That you can tell where the Classical or Folk component ends and where the Prog Rock starts in Genesis and Jethro Tull tracks? And while I'm in a questioning mood - when did I say anything sounded lame? When you said Tech/Extreme Prog Metal was clearly melted with mainstream Metal then the clearly part was clearly evident to you that Tech /Extreme Prog Metal was clearly melded with mainstream Metal - this wasn't an ambiguous statement and there is no ambiguity within it. It was there to illustrate that in your opinion dilution of the Prog with mainstream is unpopular here in the PA, but as it is not melded with mainstream metal at all you then contrived a statement where to saying not mainsteam, but you can't tell where the metal ends, which is surely an example of a well crafted fusion of any two styles of music - whether that is Prog and Metal or Prog and Raga or Prog and Folk or Folk and Metal or Jazz and Rock etc etc ad infinitum until the cows come home to roost and Gabriel once again dons the flower costume and therefore and thus it is perfectly illustrated by the fine melding of two disparate genres of music such as that perpetrated by the likes of Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis and every other Progressive Rock (and Metal) band listed in the Progressive Archives (and many more that are not). Because if I am wrong (and many may agree with someone at some point or other about something on some point or other), and you really can tell where the Classical ends and the Prog begins then the genre of music called Prog is a sham that never did progress very far beyond Days Of Future Passed, and that would be a shame.
Edited by Dean - November 05 2011 at 18:50
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 20:08 |
Dean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Well Dean, it's my opinion, you're entitled to disagree, it may sound lame to you, but I'm sure others will agree.
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Pardon? Which bit would people agree with? That you can tell where the Classical or Folk component ends and where the Prog Rock starts in Genesis and Jethro Tull tracks? And while I'm in a questioning mood - when did I say anything sounded lame? When you said Tech/Extreme Prog Metal was clearly melted with mainstream Metal then the clearly part was clearly evident to you that Tech /Extreme Prog Metal was clearly melded with mainstream Metal - this wasn't an ambiguous statement and there is no ambiguity within it. It was there to illustrate that in your opinion dilution of the Prog with mainstream is unpopular here in the PA, but as it is not melded with mainstream metal at all you then contrived a statement where to saying not mainsteam, but you can't tell where the metal ends, which is surely an example of a well crafted fusion of any two styles of music - whether that is Prog and Metal or Prog and Raga or Prog and Folk or Folk and Metal or Jazz and Rock etc etc ad infinitum until the cows come home to roost and Gabriel once again dons the flower costume and therefore and thus it is perfectly illustrated by the fine melding of two disparate genres of music such as that perpetrated by the likes of Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis and every other Progressive Rock (and Metal) band listed in the Progressive Archives (and many more that are not). Because if I am wrong (and many may agree with someone at some point or other about something on some point or other), and you really can tell where the Classical ends and the Prog begins then the genre of music called Prog is a sham that never did progress very far beyond Days Of Future Passed, and that would be a shame. |
Still I disagree with you, but you're entitled to your opinion. Yes and Genesis have clear passages of Prog ock and passages of almost pure Classical, as well as Tull has Blues, Rock and Folk sections that people can clearly distinguish. I believe many T/E Metal bands are simply Viking or Thrash Metal with keyboards. But again, people is entitled to their opinion, I only gave mine. Iván
BTW: I don't believe DoFP is Prog, in my opinion is only Pop with an orchestral intro and coda, something I always said
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 05 2011 at 20:14
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Snow Dog
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 20:21 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes and Genesis have clear passages of Prog ock and passages of almost pure Classical, as well as Tull has Blues, Rock and Folk sections that people can clearly distinguish.
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Can you give an example of this as I don't understand.
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Robert Plant - Prog?
