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richardh 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29585
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 Posted: August 10 2010 at 01:20 |
All music evolves and to some extent pays homage to that which came before. This idea of 'pure progressive music' has always been dodgy in my eyes. Music has to be music first and foremost and taking something recognisable and making it better is just as valid as creating something that is completely different sounding.
But the original discussion was about 'fake' or 'imitation' prog fans not about the bands. Its obvious that some consider themselves to be some higher form of prog citizen or perhaps even some kind of warrior for being more open to different music. Well bully for them. If they want to listen to Johhny Cash ,Rap and Disco music then fine.
As for 'progressive music' perhaps its not on this site at all. Can I suggest that all those warriors of progressiveness go elsewhere? ...pretty please!
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 02:28 |
 Easy Livin wrote:
I think the success and popularity of sites such as this, together with the resurgence of prog, has led to a lot of music being defined as prog which isn't. Styles such as post rock, extreme metal, math rock, crossover prog, and many more may be pushing things forward (progressing), but they are simply not "prog". Likewise, a lot of pure jazz has been added to the site now, it too is not prog though. We are guitly here of diluting the definition of prog in the cause of popularity and personal taste.
I'm not complaining about any of this, I think the site is all the better for the diversity of styles it contains (even if I do think there is now too much metal related music on it). Let's not kid ourselves though, most of the new music people want to see added to this site has no relation to the roots of prog, and hence the real prog of the late 60's early 70's, As such, it is not Progressive (with a capital P) rock. |
I can definitely understand this position (which I'd call the "purist" position), but I'm happy that the site was built on the completely opposite principles  Let's not forget that while the site does use the term "prog" and "prog rock" for purposes of convenience (title, slogans, etc), it was always a resource intended to cover all forms of progressive rock regardless of their connection with classic prog.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 03:45 |
I love discovering new music and I try to do so, however I can only do so in a (partly self-imposed) limited extent.
I do not have as much time as when I was 20 to dedicate to listening to music. I have now constraints of all sorts and besides, listening to music is only one of my several interests.
My CD collection is not impressive but it’s decent, around 500. Most of these CDs I have them because I love the music, not because I’m a stamp collector. I like re-listening to them now and then. Even considering that I could listen to 1 CD a day as average (which unfortunately is not always the case), simply re-listening to my current collection means that I can only re-listen each CD a bit more than once every 2 years as average.
Even if I would buy myself 10 new CDs every month, for a good part this would mean either: a) listen to it 3 or 4 times and put it in the shelf not to be heard again for who knows how long. b) stop re-listening to the vast majority of my existing CD collection.
There’s still quite a lot of "old" music which I do not know at all, or which I vaguely know and like but I do not own and do not know as well as I would like to. “Discovering new music” for me means as much discovering new modern bands of today, as old bands from the past, as new albums from bands I already know.
In the last years I’m glad to have discovered new bands, from The Mars Volta to Karmakanic to Godspeed You! Black Emperor to name some. However jumping into the unknown is not always successful (GY!BE while I do not dislike them are far from being my favourite music).
Given all these limitations, when I want to “discover some new music” I split my risks and for some part I go for something I’m already quite sure that I’m gonna like, being either some band from the past which I do not know yet but from which I have pretty certain positive references, or some album which I do not have yet from a band I already know, and know that I like.
Only for another part of my new acquisitions I take the risk of jumping into the unknown. Needless to say, PA is a great source of information not to take a completely blind jump, and rather have an educated guess of which kind of pool you are jumping into.
I have a music collection because I like listening to it. It’s not about stamp collecting or about getting a vast culture of prog music history but not being able to enjoy listening to most of it.
Edited by Gerinski - August 10 2010 at 03:48
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lensag
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2010
Location: Above Sea Level
Status: Offline
Points: 194
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 04:17 |
Gerinski wrote:
“Discovering new music” for me means as much discovering new modern bands of today, as old bands from the past, as new albums from bands I already know.
I have a music collection because I like listening to it. It’s not about stamp collecting or about getting a vast culture of prog music history but not being able to enjoy listening to most of it.
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 that, my friend, is a balanced opinion, to which i totally relate..
And people here who know every album from every band and every lyric and all the history of all the bands not only from classic prog, but all subgenres of prog, and not only prog, and still have time to trash all the bands from other styles of music - oh my, what do they do for livin?
I can´t enjoy most of the music i own because i don´t have time - i´m a "normal person", i work, i have a family, i socialize - and i always thought if people like still feel something while listening to music. I mean don´t they get dessensitized?
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"when routine bites hard and ambitions are low,
and resentment rides high but emotions won´t grow
And we´re changing our ways, taking different roads..
Then love, love will tear us apart again.."
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 05:37 |
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Heyyyyyy, whaddya have against stamp collectors?
To be honest I have a huge collection of music, before I started collecting music I collected coins, seriously. But there are only so many hours in the day. I currently have plenty of time to listen to music, I usually listen to it driving and have my own office where I can listen to whatever I like while I work. I have musical instruments and I like to mess around with them.
Enjoy music to whatever degree and whatever manner you like, just enjoy.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 10 2010 at 05:47
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 07:44 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Let's not forget that while the site does use the term "prog" and "prog rock" for purposes of convenience (title, slogans, etc), it was always a resource intended to cover all forms of progressive rock regardless of their connection with classic prog.
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But what then is progressive rock? What about bands that are neither prog in the so called classic sense nor progressive and simply evoke superficial elements of prog vaguely? Why do they still get called prog? That is something I have never understood. What's prog or progressive about Nightwish or Mostly Autumn? Nothing too proggy about Ayreon for that matter, at least whatever albums I have heard. It just slots into prog metal...yeah, and therefore? Prog metal is quite demonstrably not the same thing as prog rock, even if some bands may display a progressive approach to songwriting. It's ok to have these (among many other) bands under one large database so people get to know about them and discover great music (which is absolutely the most important thing) but anybody who says they are not prog is absolutely right, at least the way I look at it. 
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 07:55 |
Faux prog fans Three (the album) Friends Two Lesbi-ans And A. Partridge in XTCeeeeeeeee!
Edited by Snow Dog - August 10 2010 at 07:56
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 07:55 |
rogerthat wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Let's not forget that while the
site does use the term "prog" and "prog rock" for purposes of
convenience (title, slogans, etc), it was always a resource intended to
cover all forms of progressive rock regardless of their connection with
classic prog.
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But what then is progressive rock? What about bands
that are neither prog in the so called classic sense nor progressive
and simply evoke superficial elements of prog vaguely? Why do they
still get called prog? That is something I have never understood.
What's prog or progressive about Nightwish or Mostly Autumn? Nothing
too proggy about Ayreon for that matter, at least whatever albums I have
heard. It just slots into prog metal...yeah, and therefore? Prog metal
is quite demonstrably not the same thing as prog rock, even if some
bands may display a progressive approach to songwriting. It's ok to
have these (among many other) bands under one large database so people
get to know about them and discover great music (which is absolutely the
most important thing) but anybody who says they are not prog is
absolutely right, at least the way I look at it. |
Agreed, I wouldn't call some post rock or some black metal "prog" because it isn't "prog" in the sense it is used by most people (a sense that only covers something like, in my appreciation, a third or maximum a half of classic progressive rock, excluding most of what's progressive rock based on experiment, soundscaping, avantgarde, jazz, etc.).
Edited by harmonium.ro - August 10 2010 at 07:57
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:00 |
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There are indeed classic prog bands who are not particularly progressive but because they are seen to be in the same genre as the defining prog bands from back then, I don't really find it confusing to call them prog. What is confusing for me is to call bands that are neither progressive nor prog, prog.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:06 |
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^ I doubt that people interested in those bands, even on PA, call them "prog" [for any reason except that what we're archiving in PA is conventionally named "prog", despite it being named in other ways on the same site on various other locations].
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:07 |
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Yes, that's a good point, agreed.
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34086
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:40 |
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for me New Wave is an offspring off Prog with punk mentality, and Neo Prog is an continuation of the prog that was in the 70s with new clothings (instruments, synth and more solid drum sound), and Post-punk is an offspirng of Punk but with the ambitious attitude of progressive rock,
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Deleuze
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2010
Location: Qc
Status: Offline
Points: 193
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:43 |
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lol, I get what you meant, but what do you wanna do? kill the old men cause they don't wanna try other stuff...xD
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:52 |
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For me, enjoying progressive rock is about listening to music well outside my comfort zone. Magma and Soft Machine falls into that category. I started my "career" here as a symph prog fan, but have branched out in all directions thanx to the fine music and people in ProgArchives. This is in my view the essence of this place.
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:55 |
aginor wrote:
for me New Wave is an offspring off Prog with punk mentality, |
Without any traces of prog. Using a synth does not make it prog.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:57 |
There are hundreds of Prog bands out there and the emphasis is way too high on Yes, Genesis, and Pink Floyd (D.S.O.T.M., W.Y.W.H., Animals, The Wall.
C'mon....lets be down to earth about this okay? Many people from my generation thought band's such as these were overrated in 1973. So, what are we talking about here? Granted, there are other places in the world that produce great prog bands besides England.....but, that's not so much the point here.
It becomes too hyped when people persist on posting info about the usual suspects. The term "PROGRESSIVE" makes me sick. There is way too much analogy on the concept of combining progressive elements to original composition. There are too many terms and way too much analogy is made, causing many people to miss the boat (so to speak),.
Then the argument of......"Well, I suppose if I grew up in your generation, I would understand prog right"?
This entire debate is a poor excuse for defending oneself. If a teenager wants to learn about progressive rock, how will they ever flippin' learn anything truthful about it on this site, when there is too much emphasis on band's like Yes, commercial Genesis, and Pink Floyd? I'm sorry, but when I grew up with teenage proggers, we did not put our eggs all in one basket. Yes.....I know that's the way society was back then? But it's pointless to make reference to generation gaps. Who cares? the knowledge we gained from the music of our times was educational and we developed open minds to various music cultures because of it. So what? That is basically what a person is suppose to do anyway and it doesn't happen to often on progressive websites.
It doesn't matter if the percentage of diverse listeners was huge back then,. .....look what's happened to the concept of prog......YES, GENESIS, AND FLOYD! Over and over again. Did you ever think to ask yourself....What does that truly mean? as opposed to the typical 21st century viewpoint....Well, everyone has a different preference. What the H does that really have to do with anything? What's up with that?
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:58 |
Evolver wrote:
aginor wrote:
for me New Wave is an offspring off Prog with punk mentality, |
Without any traces of prog. Using a synth does not make it prog. |
On the other hand "New Wave" doesn't mean "using synths"
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 10:06 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Let's not forget that while the
site does use the term "prog" and "prog rock" for purposes of
convenience (title, slogans, etc), it was always a resource intended to
cover all forms of progressive rock regardless of their connection with
classic prog.
|
But what then is progressive rock? What about bands
that are neither prog in the so called classic sense nor progressive
and simply evoke superficial elements of prog vaguely? Why do they
still get called prog? That is something I have never understood.
What's prog or progressive about Nightwish or Mostly Autumn? Nothing
too proggy about Ayreon for that matter, at least whatever albums I have
heard. It just slots into prog metal...yeah, and therefore? Prog metal
is quite demonstrably not the same thing as prog rock, even if some
bands may display a progressive approach to songwriting. It's ok to
have these (among many other) bands under one large database so people
get to know about them and discover great music (which is absolutely the
most important thing) but anybody who says they are not prog is
absolutely right, at least the way I look at it. |
Agreed, I wouldn't call some post rock or some black metal "prog" because it isn't "prog" in the sense it is used by most people (a sense that only covers something like, in my appreciation, a third or maximum a half of classic progressive rock, excluding most of what's progressive rock based on experiment, soundscaping, avantgarde, jazz, etc.).
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Ayreon are prog because, in my opinion, of there ingenious use of synthesizers combined with there interesting structres, concepts, instrumentations, chords and sequences. They are like a metal band, but have progressed beyond - using unusual instrumentation and unusual structres.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 10:10 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
Ayreon are prog because, in my opinion, of there ingenious use of synthesizers combined with there interesting structres, concepts, instrumentations, chords and sequences. They are like a metal band, but have progressed beyond - using unusual instrumentation and unusual structres.
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Synths are as old as Rainbow. In terms of structure too, I didn't hear anything particularly more involved than say something like Seventh Son of a Seventh Son (song) or Orion, unless there was something on that binary digit named album from 2008 which I haven't heard. The lyrical concepts are all that make them different from a stereotypical metal band...which is exactly like Queensryche, like Fates Warning, like Dream Theater. Lyrics don't by themselves make a band prog anyway. Fine, it's your opinion but Ayreon have done nothing of note to progress metal. They are, rightly, called prog metal, which is essentially a metal genre.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29585
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Posted: August 10 2010 at 15:08 |
TODDLER wrote:
There are hundreds of Prog bands out there and the emphasis is way too high on Yes, Genesis, and Pink Floyd (D.S.O.T.M., W.Y.W.H., Animals, The Wall.
C'mon....lets be down to earth about this okay? Many people from my generation thought band's such as these were overrated in 1973. So, what are we talking about here? Granted, there are other places in the world that produce great prog bands besides England.....but, that's not so much the point here.
It becomes too hyped when people persist on posting info about the usual suspects. The term "PROGRESSIVE" makes me sick. There is way too much analogy on the concept of combining progressive elements to original composition. There are too many terms and way too much analogy is made, causing many people to miss the boat (so to speak),.
Then the argument of......"Well, I suppose if I grew up in your generation, I would understand prog right"?
This entire debate is a poor excuse for defending oneself. If a teenager wants to learn about progressive rock, how will they ever flippin' learn anything truthful about it on this site, when there is too much emphasis on band's like Yes, commercial Genesis, and Pink Floyd? I'm sorry, but when I grew up with teenage proggers, we did not put our eggs all in one basket. Yes.....I know that's the way society was back then? But it's pointless to make reference to generation gaps. Who cares? the knowledge we gained from the music of our times was educational and we developed open minds to various music cultures because of it. So what? That is basically what a person is suppose to do anyway and it doesn't happen to often on progressive websites.
It doesn't matter if the percentage of diverse listeners was huge back then,. .....look what's happened to the concept of prog......YES, GENESIS, AND FLOYD! Over and over again. Did you ever think to ask yourself....What does that truly mean? as opposed to the typical 21st century viewpoint....Well, everyone has a different preference. What the H does that really have to do with anything? What's up with that?
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Sadly punk went a long way to closing minds by deriding progressive rock music
'Progressive rock' could only have happened when it happened.The sixties was a unique time for musical talent and the seventies was equally unique for the advancement of musical tech that provided exciting new possibilties to those musicians prepared to innovate. It was overwelming and could not be matched ever again.
What we have now is a nice diversity of bands that are not connected musically and so the idea of 'progressive rock' as a movement no longer exists. That must be a good thing in many ways but Yes,Genesis and Pink Floyd will always offer a convenient reference point regardless of what is going on.
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