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JJLehto

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 04:55

One thing EVERYONE can agree on...the Jets have taken the crown for dumbest management in the NFL.
Just to cement the victory, the Tebow deal may now fall through?? An issue over who's paying guaranteed money, except it was in the contract. Did they agree to sign him without reading the damn thing?

I think they may also be trying to take the title of most dysfunctional team in the NFL to boot!

That is the infamous question Jody. I know tons of people (myself being one) were pissed NE got a slap on the wrist. The comish wanted to sweep it under the rug. Why? Either just to be rid of it OR there was quite a lot of bad bad evidence (I think there was) and wanted to cap the scandal.

Either way, glad he came down. Football is violent, should be so and dirty shots will happen, but in reason and the bounty is too much.

I heard that Warren Sapp has "reliable sources" that claim it was Jeremy Shockey who leaked it.
If this is true, I wonder his motivation. Doesn't strike me as a noble type, I wonder if had some grievance so decided to stick it to New Orleans.

Edited by JJLehto - March 22 2012 at 04:56

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 08:07

manofmystery wrote:

Summing up Wednesday's action:

The Jets have to have the dumbest front office in football.

I haven't followed the Bountygate thing too closely. That said, it is certainly clear that GODell is still a major piece of sh*t. Will anyone in the media have the balls to ask him about how compromising the integrity of games and entire seasons is only worth a slap on the wrist compared to the punishments he handed out yesterday? I guarantee that massive joke would have given the Saints a pass too if they'd have gone and licked his boots like Robert Kraft does. I'm not questioning the punishments but I am questioning what truely motived GODell to hand them down.

Differences

Besides hurting the integrity of the game, it threatened long term irrevocable injuries to players at a time where medical information surrounding concussions is leading to massive legal action against the NFL.

The NFL knew of this and warned the Saints to stop, but they continued with this system.

There's more evidence directly tying the head coach to the action than in Spygate.

I don't think the penalty is that much more severe.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 08:12

JJLehto wrote:

One thing EVERYONE can agree on...the Jets have taken the crown for dumbest management in the NFL.
Just to cement the victory, the Tebow deal may now fall through?? An issue over who's paying guaranteed money, except it was in the contract. Did they agree to sign him without reading the damn thing?

I think they may also be trying to take the title of most dysfunctional team in the NFL to boot!

That's been settled. The two teams are splitting the extra money. It wasn't the guaranteed money. His contract entitled him to double his guarantee if traded. It's a strange clause that was missed by both teams essentially. They were the dumbest front office when they gave Sanchez a pay raise. I don't even know what to call them now.

JJLetho wrote:

I heard that Warren Sapp has "reliable sources" that claim it was Jeremy Shockey who leaked it.
If this is true, I wonder his motivation. Doesn't strike me as a noble type, I wonder if had some grievance so decided to stick it to New Orleans.

And people who commit homicide will still buy a candy bar for a kid. Being a jerk like Shockey in no way precludes him from acting with the best intentions in this case. With that said, Warren Sapp should not being outing him, especially on the NFL Network. Also, many other people more knowledgeable than Sapp have vehemently insisted that Shockey did not leak the info. It seems like speculation to me. Blame the guy who is an a****le in the locker room and left the team disgruntled.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 08:18

New rule changes on the docket for the NFL. I think all of them would be improvements. Thoughts?

* A dramatic overhaul of the current instant replay system. The Buffalo Bills have proposed getting rid of the current coaches’ challenge system and going to a system similar to the colleges, which relies on a replay official up in the booth to overturn incorrect calls. The purpose of the proposal would be to speed up the game and eliminate those fun under-the-hood reviews by the on-field referee.

* Expansion of the league’s playoff overtime rule to the regular season. The current overtime rule in the postseason allows both teams at least one possession if the team that receives the overtime kickoff doesn’t score a touchdown. That’s different than the current first-team-that-scores-wins overtime rule in the regular season.

* The automatic review of all plays involving turnovers. Currently, those plays only can be reviewed if a coach challenges the on-field call. Last year, the league began having a replay official in the booth review all scoring plays. This would add turnovers to the expanded list.

* In an attempt to increase in-season trade activity and make football more like baseball and basketball, the owners will consider a proposal to move back the trade deadline from the sixth week of the season to Week 8.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

JJLehto

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 08:53

You are right, just because Shockey is an ass does not mean he had malicious intent, he could've honestly wanted to do what's right. There is of course no way to know, and I guess it's just easy to jump to the negative side with him!

I thought it was a bit distasteful myself (Sapp) but that's how it seems to be today. I was also a little confused that it was Sapp but who knows, we'll see. Not sure it can even be proven so it will always be speculation. Regardless, I am glad it came out.

I think those are all fine suggestions.

manofmystery View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 09:08

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Differences

Besides hurting the integrity of the game, it threatened long term irrevocable injuries to players at a time where medical information surrounding concussions is leading to massive legal action against the NFL.

The NFL knew of this and warned the Saints to stop, but they continued with this system.

There's more evidence directly tying the head coach to the action than in Spygate.

I don't think the penalty is that much more severe.

I don't think that what the Saints did hurt the integrity of the game simply because bounties have existed amongst defensive players for a long time, whether they all put money in a pool for monetary reward or be it just for bragging rights. What was unusual and unacceptable was the involvement of the coaching staff. Also, this scandal didn't directly corrupt the outcome of games and entire seasons.

To believe that Belichick wasn't orchestrating Spygate would be beyond nieve. He led an effort to corrupt the integrity of each and ever game they played during that stretch and at the end of the day recieved a fine and lost some meaningless draft picks to go with his 3 ill-gotten rings (the fine isn't a big deal if 3 super bowls have you rolling in more dough than you'd have had otherwise). Belichick, and several other Patriots' coaches, should have been recieved a lifetime ban for cheating.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

New rule changes on the docket for the NFL. I think all of them would be improvements. Thoughts?

* A dramatic overhaul of the current instant replay system. The Buffalo Bills have proposed getting rid of the current coaches’ challenge system and going to a system similar to the colleges, which relies on a replay official up in the booth to overturn incorrect calls. The purpose of the proposal would be to speed up the game and eliminate those fun under-the-hood reviews by the on-field referee.

Surely the technology is there now for football to have a war room somewhere, similar to the NHL's, in which they can review plays instantly and alert the on-field officials to correction if need be.

The overtime rule shouldn't have been altered in the first place. Defense is half the game and if you can't give your offense a chance to get on the field then that's your team's problem.

Same thoughts as the first one

Why on earth would they want to be more like baseball and basketball? They should be doing what they can to prevent themselves from becoming as bad as other sports in terms of the constant movement of players.

Time always wins.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 09:20

I'm pretty sure that ruins the integrity of the game. There's no proof that Spygate affected any outcomes either. There was intent and action to affect outcomes in both cases.

From all evidence which has been released, it seems like there was a weaker link the Spygate saga. That surely should be factored into the punishment.

So with the overtime rules. You have two teams constructed like this.
Team A: Elite offense, no defense
Team B: Very good offense, Very good defense

Team A wins the coin toss. Team B holds them to a field goal. Team B would almost surely score a touchdown on their next possession. Team A wins the game? I'm sorry. I'm not comfortable having a coin determine the game.

You say defense is part of the game, but you will allow overtime rules which completely eliminate the defensive aspect for one team. That's inane.

The trade deadline is the best part of baseball. What's wrong with having teams be able to improve themselves midseason?

Edited by Equality 7-2521 - March 22 2012 at 09:21

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 09:34

You guys probably don't agree, but I'm thrilled to see the Saints called on the bounty thing. I still can't believe that championship game with the Vikings. At the time it seemed so obvious to me that they were trying to injure Favre, as opposed to good clean hits. I don't oppose hard hits in either hockey or football, but when there is specific intent to end someone's season or career, that is just so lame.

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manofmystery View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 10:05

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I'm pretty sure that ruins the integrity of the game. There's no proof that Spygate affected any outcomes either. There was intent and action to affect outcomes in both cases.

Really, you don't think that knowing what the other team is going the run affects the outcome? It's not as though they dominated teams during their run. They "won" their 3 Super Bowls by a combined 6 points and you can't tell me that cheating on the scale they did doesn't mean everything in such close games.

From all evidence which has been released, it seems like there was a weaker link the Spygate saga. That surely should be factored into the punishment.

There is no way in hell Spygate was conducted without the knowledge of the head coach.

So with the overtime rules. You have two teams constructed like this.
Team A: Elite offense, no defense
Team B: Very good offense, Very good defense

Team A wins the coin toss. Team B holds them to a field goal. Team B would almost surely score a touchdown on their next possession. Team A wins the game? I'm sorry. I'm not comfortable having a coin determine the game.

You say defense is part of the game, but you will allow overtime rules which completely eliminate the defensive aspect for one team. That's inane.

How can you say that Team B will almost certainly score a TD? You are assuming a lot with this scenario. The coin doesn't determine the game the players do. You don't get 3 points for winning the coin toss you still have to earn them.

The trade deadline is the best part of baseball. What's wrong with having teams be able to improve themselves midseason?

I disagree with that assessment. The carpetbagger culture of modern pro sports is a shame for the fans.

Time always wins.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 10:20

Finnforest wrote:

I agree and I hate Favre. They did the same thing to Warner.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 10:24

manofmystery wrote:

Really, you don't think that knowing what the other team is going the run affects the outcome? It's not as though they dominated teams during their run. They "won" their 3 Super Bowls by a combined 6 points and you can't tell me that cheating on the scale they did doesn't mean everything in such close games.

I know that ex-players said it wasn't that big of a deal and didn't give that much of an advantage. I know ex-coaches said the same thing. So I really don't know how much of a difference it would make. How much does it raise your probability of winning? That's relevant.

There is no way in hell Spygate was conducted without the knowledge of the head coach.

That's awesome bro, but the evidential link is weaker so it's moot.

How can you say that Team B will almost certainly score a TD? You are assuming a lot with this scenario. The coin doesn't determine the game the players do. You don't get 3 points for winning the coin toss you still have to earn them.

First off, it's a hypothetical scenario so I know. Say the defense gave up a TD on 60% of its drives. Say the offense scored one of 60% of its drives. Correct for strength of opponents. It seems highly likely. You still ignored my other question. One half of the teams involved have a chance of winning without ever fielding their defense no matter how big of a glaring hole it may be. In baseball if the team batting first in the 10th inning gets a run, should the game just end?

I disagree with that assessment. The carpetbagger culture of modern pro sports is a shame for the fans.

We're at an impasse here. It's not a shame for the fans. It's a shame for some fans. I love it.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 12:08

I agree with MoM.......I think GODell took the easy way out in this whole issue. I'm not questioning the punishment because that is a separate topic. For sure the Saints knew something bad would happen.....and it has.

The NFL is trying their best to sweep this whole deal under the rug. Rather than address this issue which has been going on for eons in football. You seriously think that the Raiders back in the day did not do this also?

And when you have former NFL players come out and testify that it has happened, will happen and never will stop happening and the NFL does not begin a full league all team investigation....its hogwash!

GODell is only interested in making sure his lucrative TV/Cable/Sponser contracts are not in jeopardy...as I am sure his salary/bonus is directly linked to this.

Feces flows from the top, it always does and I think he should loose his job.....you can;t say he didn't know this has been going on for years and with no real plan to stop it.

It is effortless to punish someone......But it takes a lot of effort to educate someone to be better.

And thats horsedung about the Warner and Favre deals.

Warner threw an INT and panicked and got in the play as a tackler, he got hit hard and it was a legal hit, no flag was thrown......So I don't understand what the problem is? He should have been smarter and got outta the play as QBs are not trained to tackle anyone.

And I promise you Favre would tell you thats football.....he was old and getting hit by a bunch of 20 somethings is not good for an old guy.

Belichek and Spygate, only they were doing it.....and they got a slap on the butt.......Bounty has been going on forever and all teams have done it........yet the NFL only punishes one team.

That makes no sense.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 15:43

manofmystery View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 16:05

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

manofmystery wrote:

Really, you don't think that knowing what the other team is going the run affects the outcome? It's not as though they dominated teams during their run. They "won" their 3 Super Bowls by a combined 6 points and you can't tell me that cheating on the scale they did doesn't mean everything in such close games.

I know that ex-players said it wasn't that big of a deal and didn't give that much of an advantage. I know ex-coaches said the same thing. So I really don't know how much of a difference it would make. How much does it raise your probability of winning? That's relevant.

Ex-players and ex-coaches from what team? I'm sure there are plenty of players from the team they beat during their runs that would beg to differ. Knowing what is coming based on the formation makes a huge difference especially when they played against some of the complicated defenses they did during those years.

There is no way in hell Spygate was conducted without the knowledge of the head coach.

That's awesome bro, but the evidential link is weaker so it's moot.

The strength of the coverup does seem to be an issue when punishments are handed down.

How can you say that Team B will almost certainly score a TD? You are assuming a lot with this scenario. The coin doesn't determine the game the players do. You don't get 3 points for winning the coin toss you still have to earn them.

First off, it's a hypothetical scenario so I know. Say the defense gave up a TD on 60% of its drives. Say the offense scored one of 60% of its drives. Correct for strength of opponents. It seems highly likely. You still ignored my other question. One half of the teams involved have a chance of winning without ever fielding their defense no matter how big of a glaring hole it may be. In baseball if the team batting first in the 10th inning gets a run, should the game just end?

And I could say: should a hockey game not end when the first team scores in OT? Comparing apples to oranges, here. The only thing I could potentially see is modifying the start of overtime so that the team winning the coin toss wouldn't win on a kick return. Will never agree that defenses are suddenly off the hook just because it's overtime. It's asinine that their play in overtime should be any less important that it is in the last few minutes of regulation in a tie game.

I disagree with that assessment. The carpetbagger culture of modern pro sports is a shame for the fans.

We're at an impasse here. It's not a shame for the fans. It's a shame for some fans. I love it.

I suppose. I will continue to think a great deal more of players who spend their entire careers with one or two (I can see moving before you've become an established player or going "home") teams. I've always loved the fact that by the time the Steelers won their last Super Bowl of the 70s dynasty that no player on the roster had ever played a game with another team. That was unity.

Time always wins.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 16:10

Catcher10 wrote:

I agree with MoM.......I think GODell took the easy way out in this whole issue. I'm not questioning the punishment because that is a separate topic. For sure the Saints knew something bad would happen.....and it has.

GODell is only interested in making sure his lucrative TV/Cable/Sponser contracts are not in jeopardy...as I am sure his salary/bonus is directly linked to this.

Feces flows from the top, it always does and I think he should loose his job.....you can;t say he didn't know this has been going on for years and with no real plan to stop it.

It is effortless to punish someone......But it takes a lot of effort to educate someone to be better.

And thats horsedung about the Warner and Favre deals.

And I promise you Favre would tell you thats football.....he was old and getting hit by a bunch of 20 somethings is not good for an old guy.

Belichek and Spygate, only they were doing it.....and they got a slap on the butt.......Bounty has been going on forever and all teams have done it........yet the NFL only punishes one team.

That makes no sense.

I disagree. I watched that Saints/Vikings game with a bunch of fans who've been watching NFL for decades, and your implication that what happened in that game was the same as what happens in every game for years is hogwash. The hits in that game were not NFL norm just like any other game.

I only wish the Vikes had returned the favor. I would have taken a suspension to drill Brees square in the back, out of bounds, when he wasn't looking. That's not how I like football to be, but if the Saints like no-standards football, then it should go both ways.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 17:57

^ and I disagree with you.......Its football and they wear helmets and pads and have been hitting people with intent to hurt for yrs.....It is what it is. If that is the case then why did the officials NOT throw any flags for unnecessary roughness?

All the play was within in the rules of the NFL for BOTH games the Saints played, and with other games where hard hits are involved. What you are wanting is for the refs to throw flags for any hit where the hittee did not see it coming. Well getting hit from the side or wrapped up from the back and dropped hard is legal...maybe the NFL needs to install "eyes" in the helmets so the players can see where everyone is coming from so they can get out of the way.

Better yet how about same type of punishment for those players who take PEDs to get bulkier and stronger than normal and inflict pain on the field.

The NFL is NOT handling this in a manner to make it go away.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 18:03

If you can't see that the intent in that game was to actually injure, as opposed to standard clean hard hits, I can't help you.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 19:29

Well certainly the officials did not see it that way either...nor the NFL for that matter. And if the NFL did, they should have done something about it right away, assuming they did not want to get involved.

JJLehto

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 21:41

Finnforest wrote:

Obviously hard hits are fine, and aiming for injured body parts is part of the game. They WILL go after it. The Saints admitted after the game they were trying to hit his injured parts, and I forget who but someone once warned Sam Bradford about playing hurt saying "people will aim for your broken arm".
Obviously in theory it should be clean hard hits, but people do go out to to try and hurt you if possible.

The whole paying thing is kind of messed up, especially since it was a coach doing it.

If you recall, the Packers got in some water a few years ago for having a bounty...but I guess it was just "rumor" so nothing could be acted upon it. Ironic Favre was the QB of that team LOL

Paying adds extra incentive to go for the kill and it's beyond the spirit of the game, it is indeed playing solely to hurt...not just playing hard. Hard and clean is fine, but when players are being paid extra to hurt people then obviously it's not "incidental". The Saints coaching staff got an appropriate punishment.

The team is of course still intact and they can even rally around this. Drew Brees will become the absolute leader now.

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 21:46

Not to be this guy but Catcher...you DO see where it's tough to believe you right? LOL

Are you 100% sincere in that belief? If it was discovered the Niners had a bounty on Drew Brees, thus going out of their way to try and hurt him you would not be crying for penalties? Remember that any injury has a chance that player may never fully recover from it. It just looks kind of bad you are against the call AND so passionately and that it happens to affect your team LOL

Like I said in the above post...Drew Brees is a vet and the team can rally. I think the punishments were appropriate and the physical team won't suffer from it. Though sadly, ever hard hit even if its 100% clean there will be questions.
Also Gregg Williams is done, depending on when his suspension is up. If it's like 2 years, I think there's a good chance no one will pick him up again.

If the Giants were busted with this I'd be just as supportive as I am now. The whole bounty thing is wrong.
We know it happens...the Pack managed to slide by, but this is certainly a warning...knock it off because if you do get caught the hammer will be brought.

Edited by JJLehto - March 22 2012 at 21:47