Amp/Guitar modeling and related discussion thread

Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: They are just tools for making music, just as a Line 6 POD, Boss GT, Digitech GSP1101 or an actual amp. At any time they get in the way of making music, it's because of the user, not the gear itself, despite what Debrewguy might think. I've heard so many great sound clips and songs made with amp modeling gear that I think it's easy to see the actual song writing and recording process gets done rather well if someone puts their mind it, gets off their ass and just goes for it.

Indeed - and while having the right tool for the job is essential (you won't cut wood with a hammer, or put up shelves with a saw), any decent musician can make a reasonable noise and write music with basic equipment. I once saw a coll video of Frank Zappa playing a bicycle, and another of him "playing" a studio audience. Music is where you find it.

POD Farm uses too much CPU - yes, it's friendly, but when you've got a heap of VSTs for synth and vocal processing, it doesn't make sense to have this resource drain running too. I'm getting used to the X3 interface - it's certainly friendlier than the XT Pro, that's for sure! 

Some really cool tips in there - thanks!

^At the moment, it's not close enough to the PC to be able to plug it in, so that's another issue.

I must say I've been impressed with some of the tones you've got.

Edited by Certif1ed - June 04 2009 at 16:59

^ back when I played in a band, I used an even more simplistic approach:

- Engl Tube amp 1x12, only clean channel used (the other channel was not working properly - I never had it repaired)
- Ibanez Tube King preamp

That was it ... no other effects whatsoever. I set the Engl clean channel to a very slightly distorted clean sound (not ultra-clean, but still clean). The Tube King was set to almost full gain and volume.

So I didn't even use different sounds for rhythm and lead.

Certif1ed wrote: Some really cool tips in there - thanks!   The only decent amp I've ever played with is a JCM 800, and the Line 6 model isn't even close to how I remember the tone (this was back in the 1980s, after all, so my memory may be rose-tinted, but I'm sure the JCM has a certain presence that none of the amp models get).   It's even worse with bass amps - I can't find a tone that really gets the HiWatt, Trace Elliot, Marshall, Peavey or Laney sounds; they all sound like variants of the same thing to me. We've got a Bass XT Pro as well as the regular XT Pro, but the X3 just seems to add a whole load more bass amps sounding really similar to each other - no character!   Any tips on getting a half decent bass sound out of these things?   I know what you mean about the box size; we've now got a 2U space in the rack and nothing that'll go in it.   For guitar, I've been seriously tempted by the Ibanez WD7 "Weeping Demon" pedal - I really want OTT Dive bombs and wah effects, because a lot of our music hinges on our warped sense of humour. I'm not a serious player, but I'm a serious composer with serious fun in mind.   Are these things any good? (I'm counting this as modelling, because of the impossible stuff it's supposed to be able to do).

I've yet to hear an amp simulation from Boss, Behringer or Line 6 that could really get the JCM 800 sound. At best it gets about half way there then something about the rest of the sound just isn't right, so I just don't ever use that amp sim.
Can't add much to the bass amp model discussion, honestly never heard any of the bass amp models in person in a way that I could hear the tone well enough. I don't think Line 6 spent much time on the bass amp modeling end of things anyway, since most people are going to be happy enough with a bass sound that fits in a recorded mix.
The Weeping Demon is just a wah, it wont do that dive bomb thing you want. For that you need something like a Digitech Whammy Pedal.
The X3 has a built in pitch shifter, but unfortunately it can't even track more than one note at once, so it's borderline useless for my taste.

^ I totally agree on the "pedal tap dance" issue ... the simpler, the better.

BTW: I'm with you on a slight delay/echo for the lead tone, but reverb ... not in a band situation IMO, because at most venues you already have plenty of reverb for everything, whether you want it or not. I think I'd go for a slight chorus instead, but for that to sound great you need stereo. And stereo in turn is bad when performing live, since for most venues you have to go mono.

About different tones for rhythm and lead: Of course today I would do that too, since it's so easy to implement with amp modelers. But I would probably try not to use two entirely different sounds. The lead tone would be louder and boosted in the mid range. But then again you can't really play with a "mid-less" sound in a band (like some Rectifier-freaks prefer), because while that might sound cool when played standalone, it doesn't integrate well into the mix when played in a band situation ... you'll conflict with the bass and still be barely audible.

^ I love the Line 6 Insane model, but I usually play it at gain 5, bass 10, middle 10, treble 10, presence 6 ...

Okay, 3 months later, I know a bit more about my POD X3 Live now, how to use it and more about it's strengths and weaknesses.

First off the DI capabilities of the POD are honestly just not as good as having a real DI box. Whenever I try to reamp with any other amp sim than POD Farm (I've tried 8505, 7170, SoloC and a few others) they just end up revealing the weakness of the POD's DI. I'm under the impression POD Farm is designed somewhat to compensate for the fact the POD's DI is not the best. Hopefully by the time the next POD comes out they improve the DI, but I wont be holding my breathe, since by that time I'll most likely have moved onto miking up real amps and using a more expensive interface.
If you want to use other amp sims, get a real DI Box, or would like to reamp with real amps..........well, buy a reamping box.

One thing I've started to learn about recording guitar tones in general, is that you really have to keep the content above 7KHz controlled and in check (bear in mind I'm talking about metal/high gain tones, since this is what I work with for the most part) . Now mind you I'm still working out how to do this, but listening to some of my favorite guitar tones I've noticed this seems to be one of the factors that separates amateur tones from the pros.
Of course in pro circles it's quite standard to low pass at 10-12-Khz, but sometimes I even use 8 or 9Khz, just experimenting really.
Since a lot of pros are using real cabinets (which are a lot better than what you get with the POD's amp sims, but more on that in a few minutes) they aren't having to deal with too much in the way of excess high since these are truly the real deal and you get that proper high end roll off beyond 5-6KHz that keeps things smooth.

What you want to aim for is getting the 'brightness' more in the high mids, because trying to get it in the highs just ends up very scratchy sounding at worst and at best somewhat fatiguing for the listener.
Just listen to a bunch of great metal guitar tones (this is of course somewhat subjective)

End of Heartache - Killswitch Engage
Dead Heart In a Dead World - Nevermore
This Godless Endeavor - Nevermore
Watershed - Opeth
The Way of All Flesh - Gojira
Death of a Dead Day - SikTh
Stabbing the Drama - Soilwork
The upcoming Scar Symmetry album (not released yet, but even on the myspace samples with the crappy low bit rate I could tell the guitar tones are absolutely incredible)
Doomsday Machine - Arch Enemy
Endgame - Megadeth

I don't expect everyone to be a fan of the artists/albums. Admittedly I'm not a fan of half the songs on Doomsday Machine, Watershed's last 2 tracks are kinda weak and Stabbing the Drama is inconsistent.
But at least give the tracks you like a listen, because these are great references for guitar tones and production.
Hell, if you don't like an album at all, even just listening to short bits of one track to be able to hear the mix and guitar tone is enough, because ultimately there is something to be learnt from all of these albums production and guitar tone wise.

But back to the cabinets. I think the amp sims are quite good, but the cab sims hold the POD back.
I know I've said this before, but the more I've gotten into production, the more this has struck me as true and important to know in order to unlock the best out of the POD/Pod Farm.
The amp sims are pretty good as I said. As stated many times, doesn't sound like the real thing, but it's just as good IMO, just different.
However, unfortunately with the cab sims, different story.
I'd like to be able to say "ohh, sounds good, but just different", but I honestly think this is not the case and they just aren't that good. They seem to be the cause of the frequencies that really give the POD an amateurish quality to the sound.
In the past I knew the 4 band semi parametric EQ was important, but recently it's struck me as it being entirely essential to getting the goods.
If you want to get a great source tone (which is what you want to be aiming for ultimately, but some pros use post processing EQ so it's not a sin to do that either, unlike what some purists would have you believe) from the POD, learn to use the 4 band effectively. Make it your friend, learn to love it. The normal 3 band+presence controls are just not enough, period.
You always use impulses, true enough, but some of the clips I've heard by some of the most experienced POD/POD Farm users suggests that with a bit of work you can work around the limitations of the cab simulations and get something really great.
Get those low mids and those high mids in check and you'll truly in business.
Another thing I noticed, recording straight from the POD vs using reamping via POD Farm:
I was never able to get that more pro sounding attack to my sound recording straight via the POD. Starting using the POD Farm VST plug in and voila, suddenly my guitar tone started to sound more professional and you could actually hear that sound of the percussive chunk of really digging into the strings.
Also in general the entire thing just seemed to sound different somehow. The same EQ settings on the POD did not sound the same as the same settings on POD Farm.

Now that I've said all that, I've gotta work on getting a good bass tone.
So far, I just high pass at 40 Hz and low pass at 3KHz since nothing I play requires much in the way of high end content, but otherwise I need more help in this department.



Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - September 25 2009 at 21:10