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Non Big Six Prog Favorite
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Poll Question: Which Non Big Six Prog Band for you?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
17 [11.56%]
7 [4.76%]
24 [16.33%]
5 [3.40%]
4 [2.72%]
7 [4.76%]
21 [14.29%]
7 [4.76%]
33 [22.45%]
1 [0.68%]
11 [7.48%]
4 [2.72%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [0.68%]
5 [3.40%]
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

For me Gentle Giant should be in the 'big six' of prog. I don't care how, make room for them somehow.. imo. 

Big Six as per the other poll is Yes, Genesis, Floyd, Tull, ELP, KC.  GG never outsold these bands. So they were never as popular as them, nor still are.  Even today, GG remains a far more polarising band than any of these.  Even those who don't like ELP still like the debut, likewise for KC.  Maybe if GG didn't have Derek Shulman as their singer, they would be less polarising but that's woulda shoulda coulda.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

can't choose, Camel, Renaissance and Rush make it impossible (LOL). 

Grobschnitt? Why not Eloy, Jane, Novalis?

I agree that if you have Grobschnitt you have to have Eloy. But if you mention Jane and Novalis then it opens up a can of worms that would also have to include Hoelderlin, Birth Control, Anyone's Daughter, SFF and on and on. Then there's also the more krautrocky bands like Agitation Free, Neu, Kraftwerk, Can, AD2 etc. Nektar, Strawbs and Gong in particular though seem to be mysteriously absent.

I don't wanna open no can of worms (LOL), just wondering why Grobschnitt of all possible German bands. :)
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Originally posted by irrelevant irrelevant wrote:

Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

There are a lot of "Great Big Bands" with "Masterpieces" in and out of this list. What is your definition about "Big Six"? Are we have a common opinion about it? Who said PF or ELP bigger than VDGG or PFM? Bigger or Biggest?! What is your opinion about genres? 


It's basically down to popularity. "Six most popular 70's progressive rock bands"; which covers how well-known they are/were everywhere, not just the forum here. I don't think we've come to a consensus yet here though LOL
Yes you right. I believe , Popularity is a important parameter but there are too many important measures too. 50% of musical (and other arts) parameters are technical parameters (theory and physical) from Composing , Song Writing ...to playing instruments and we can't ignore them. 
Honestly , I don't want to discuss about it hardly in this poll because I hate to change threads direction.. I vote to Camel today and I may vote to VDGG or Rush or Magma(as Bigs) tomorrow ! LOL
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Not sure whether there was ever a proper discussion in which the "Big 6" were "officially" agreed. What's the history of that category? I don't think it's based on sales only - have these six all outsold Rush, Radiohead and Kate Bush? I think it's a mix of popularity, innovation, influence, competence, longevity... As I wrote earlier, on that basis I'm just about fine with the Big 6 selection although I have nothing to do with it. I also do agree that all the "best of the rest", be it GG, VDGG, Rush or Zappa, are clearly behind in at least one, rather more aspects.


Edited by Lewian - August 15 2018 at 05:08
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Not sure whether there was ever a proper discussion in which the "Big 6" were "officially" agreed. What's the history of that category? I don't think it's based on sales only - have these six all outsold Rush, Radiohead and Kate Bush? I think it's a mix of popularity, innovation, influence, competence, longevity... As I wrote earlier, on that basis I'm just about fine with the selection although I have nothing to do with it. I also do agree that all the "best of the rest", be it GG, VDGG, Rush or Zappa, are clearly behind in at least one, rather more aspects.
Those three bands came after the first wave of prog.  I think the Big Six refers to the biggest from the first wave of prog.  This is why Genesis is sometimes excluded from the Big Six, as in this formulation.  Because their biggest success came as the first wave bands were waning. 

If we took a modern prog, esp prog metal, centric point of view, Rush would be more influential than all of the Big Six with the possible exception of Pink Floyd.  
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


If we took a modern prog, esp prog metal, centric point of view, Rush would be more influential than all of the Big Six with the possible exception of Pink Floyd.  

The thing with Rush is that for all their influence they themselves are so strongly influenced by some Big 6 entries; they popularised certain elements but were certainly not as inventive as the Big 6.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


If we took a modern prog, esp prog metal, centric point of view, Rush would be more influential than all of the Big Six with the possible exception of Pink Floyd.  

The thing with Rush is that for all their influence they themselves are so strongly influenced by some Big 6 entries; they popularised certain elements but were certainly not as inventive as the Big 6.

Rush did popularize elements introduced by the big 6.  But they also brought their own originality to the table and incorporated that into to their music as well.  They repeated some big 6 but added much of their own, so overall, they were as inventive as anybody.  
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My understanding is that the term "big 6" originated during the first wave/golden era of prog.  I'm not sure anybody knows who first coined the term, but it was put out as a descriptor of who were considered the most influential and representative practitioners of the genre at the time.   

Times to change and history allows for some reassessment of such categorization.  J.S. Bach was considered a relatively minor composer in his lifetime but later became considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, of all time.  So today, with benefit of history and hindsight, we may say, hey, a group like Camel deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as King Crimson.  We may observe that, while highly respected by many prog fans, a group like King Crimson is virtually unknown outside that community, so maybe they don't get the same consideration as Yes or Tull,, who have tons of recognition across a broader community.  And that assessment was made before Genesis replaced their prog with pop.  

Lots of variables.  The Big 6 makes a good starting point for discussion of prog in that era, but is of limited utility beyond that.  
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

For me Gentle Giant should be in the 'big six' of prog. I don't care how, make room for them somehow.. imo. 

Big Six as per the other poll is Yes, Genesis, Floyd, Tull, ELP, KC.  GG never outsold these bands. So they were never as popular as them, nor still are.  Even today, GG remains a far more polarising band than any of these.  Even those who don't like ELP still like the debut, likewise for KC.  Maybe if GG didn't have Derek Shulman as their singer, they would be less polarising but that's woulda shoulda coulda.
 

Can't argue with any of that but, for me, the big 4 of PROG is(and probably will always be) Yes, Genesis, ELP, and Gentle freaking Giant! Even as much as I love Frank Zappa, I have to leave him out when it comes to prog in the purest sense. 
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Rush easily
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In terms of the big six discussion I would say that ELP, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and Tull are the obvious ones. Pink Floyd where a strange anomaly as they were nothing special until DSOTM which is arguably a 'crossover' album while VDGG and GG should obviously have been massive and no one really knows why they weren't!
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^Nothing special? Atom Heart Mother was groundbreaking it´s time, one of the first epics with rock band & big orchestra, yes there were also Purple with Concerto & the Nice in Five Bridges, but to me Atom Heart is the most masterpiece of those, really great composition and band/orchestra collaboration works the best of those.

But also I think they were masters of psychedelia in their two first albums, More & Ummagumma are also really great albums, although in those albums they didn´t develop forward as much as in Atom Heart.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In terms of the big six discussion I would say that ELP, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and Tull are the obvious ones. Pink Floyd where a strange anomaly as they were nothing special until DSOTM which is arguably a 'crossover' album while VDGG and GG should obviously have been massive and no one really knows why they weren't!

I agree with you about Floyd but I know so many people that say same things about ELP. 
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Jade Warrior > Focus > Eloy
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

For me Gentle Giant should be in the 'big six' of prog. I don't care how, make room for them somehow.. imo. 


Big Six as per the other poll is Yes, Genesis, Floyd, Tull, ELP, KC.  GG never outsold these bands. So they were never as popular as them, nor still are.  Even today, GG remains a far more polarising band than any of these.  Even those who don't like ELP still like the debut, likewise for KC.  Maybe if GG didn't have Derek Shulman as their singer, they would be less polarising but that's woulda shoulda coulda.
 

Can't argue with any of that but, for me, the big 4 of PROG is(and probably will always be) Yes, Genesis, ELP, and Gentle freaking Giant! Even as much as I love Frank Zappa, I have to leave him out when it comes to prog in the purest sense. 


What’s Prog in the purest sense? I ask because I would actually identify Zappa as Prog in the purest sense.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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progmatic View Drop Down
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It may not fit on this list, but I'd give Porcupine Tree some love for its incredible string of consistently great albums.
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Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

What’s Prog in the purest sense? I ask because I would actually identify Zappa as Prog in the purest sense.
 

If you're talking early Zappa then I absolutely agree. Mostly in that it's different than anything else(as far as I know). Uncle Meat stands out to me because I would call that prog more so than In The Court.. People will disagree with that but it's my opinion. 

70's Zappa doesn't sound all that 'proggy' to me though, compared to like ELP or 70's Genesis(that's usually what I think of when I think of the word Prog). So really just depends how you look at it I think. 
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can't believe this nice poll passed me by LOL

Renaissance (today) Big smile
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LAM-SGC View Drop Down
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When did it change to Big Six? It was always Big 5 back in the day.

Rush got my vote.  

Rush along with Moody Blues are the only two I listen to more than occasionally.

Less than occasionally I listen to Camel, Focus, Gentle Giant, Supertramp and PFM

The rest I never listen to and in some cases have never heard. 


Edited by LAM-SGC - January 14 2019 at 11:25
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I love Van Der Graaf Generator much more than the others. 

For me Van der Graaf (and King Crimson) of 1969-71 are of another category compared to any other bands (BIG6 included... Floyds are in the between). 

In this list, seconds (very distant) Gentle Giant.

Then, Magma, PFM, Caravan, Soft Machine.

Anyway, if we are talking about popularity, Gentle Giant and Van der Graaf had much more success in Italy than the other groups on this list (comparable to that of BIG6).


Edited by jamesbaldwin - January 14 2019 at 11:55
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