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Roland113 View Drop Down
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Hmm, ok, lot of good stuff lately, random response posting ahead:

Gus, I agree with you on "Close to the Edge", while I have grown to appreciate it more over the past year, I far prefer "Siberian Khatrau".

Dennis, Sorry, I totally disagree with you regarding "Snow", to me, Snow rocks pretty solid the whole way through with the exception of the somewhat deplorable "Carrie".  the last seven or eight tunes leading up the end are fantastic in my mind.  Snow is easily my favorite Beard album.

The Whirlwind still leaves me cold and unimpressed, give me "Dual with the Devil" any day though I'll take any Flower Kings epic over any Transatlantic epic any day.  Yes, despite my criticism of Monsters and Men, I'd rather spend twenty minutes listening to it over anything that Transatlantic has done.  Don't get me wrong, I like the TA stuff, just not as much as The Flower Kings.

Like Dennis mentioned, I too hate the Garden of Dreams edit on Meet the Flower Kings.  Echoing Dennis' thoughts, I can't believe that they took out some of what I think are the key parts.  Really, they replaced 'Did I Tell You' with a noodly guitar solo.  I love Mr. Stolt's playing, but that shouldn't have been done.

All in all, I hate Meet the Flower Kings.  As Gus said, it lacks any live feel to it due to the way it was recorded, the crowd has no energy, the band itself seems to be lacking in intensity.  For a Flower Kings live CD, give me Instant Delivery any day.  Yes, it helps that "Paradox Hotel" is my favorite FK CD.  (Actually, I think I'll listen to it this afternoon)

Finally, Frip leaves me mostly cold and I get the 'he has no soul' vibe.  I think he spends too much time playing what he can rather than what he should play.  I can appreciate his music from a technical stand point, by the same token, I really have no desire to listen to it.  I've tried and come to like some of his work . . . but not a lot of it.
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325 pages of the Flower Kings appreciation thread......the only question is....why?
 
)Wink
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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CTTE is up there with the very best that symphonic prog has to offer - But, And you and I is a better track for me. You can't go wrong with Andersons lyrics - he may also have been a born-again christian froot-loop but his lyrics are just what the Dr ordered after you've just been morsed for a good hour and twenty.....
SAD PREACHER NAILED UPON THE COLOURED WHEEL OF TIME...........much better than the preachy waarch that Morse has been firing down my lug-holes for the last few weeks - or how about - HAROLD THE BARREL, CUT OFF HIS TOES and SERVED THEM ALL FOR TEA......marvellous..........
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Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Biff Tannen Biff Tannen wrote:

In the studio, Garden of Dreams is perfect as is, but I can see why they edited it down when played live.  

I agree that the last song in The Whirlwind suite does feel a bit overdone, with all of the reprises, but that is Neal Morse for ya.  I love Neal's music, but he goes a bit overboard with the reprises more often than not (see: the last half of Disc 2 of Snow), so it is one of those little things I can deal with since his music is always so enjoyable. 

 
Biff, fair enough, you misunderstand me about "live" music.  You quote Neal Peart, yet, RUSH always played their songs faithfully live(that does NOT mean note for note...)   G.O.D. got gutted live, TFK threw out vital parts and put in extened
useless jams like that "YES-All Good People" thing in the beginning that wasted two minutes which could have included
a key part that they dropped!  G.O.D. isn't a jam piece where you can just throw away parts and put in extened
jams.  That would be like RUSH-2112 dropping "Temples" and putting in a drum solo. Just MHO.Tongue
 
 

I think Peart was referring to songs in general, not parts of songs, especially since Rush back in the day would always put one song on every album that they viewed as a studio "never to be played live" song: Tears, Madrigal, Different Strings, Witch Hunt (which did get played live later on once advances in keyboards made it possible), Losing It, etc.  But Rush does have some songs that never kicked ass live like they should have (Animate, for example), as well as having some songs that were much better live than in the studio (Red Sector A, for example). 

But I agree that throwing in jamming in the middle of GOD live instead of playing the existing parts was somewhat of a bummer, but I suppose a lot of bands like reworking songs over time, a) cause they might think it makes them better, or b) cause they want to play them a bit differently instead of playing it the same way every single time. 
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I agree about Meet The Flower Kings...it leaves me cold, too.  Sure, it is good to throw on every once in a while, but 9 times out of 10, if I am going for a TFK DVD, it is Instant Delivery.  

Also, while I think Snow is ripe with too many reprises, I do love the Wind at My Back reprise at the end of the album. The way the chorus goes on and on and on is just too awesome.  

As for Transatlantic, I will take All of the Above, Duel with the Devil and Stranger in Your Soul over every TFK long epic except Garden of Dreams and I Am the Sun (and ranking those five in order would be difficult).  I think of The Whirlwind more as a suite of songs, rather than a single song, so I don't really think about it when considering the best super long rock songs. 
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

325 pages of the Flower Kings appreciation thread......the only question is....why?
 
)Wink


Because the Flower Kings are the finest prog band ever to inhabit planet earth, that's why.

Oh, and we fans of the band like to argue about all things prog in the safety of our insulated thread WinkBig smile
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infandous View Drop Down
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You know, I like Instant Delivery, but it has to be my least favorite set list of FK material ever.  Also, I don't think it's very representative of the band, since they basically sound like a hard rockin' band with a bit of prog thrown in here and there (which I think is due to the drummer, who is easily the worst they've ever had.......which isn't to say he was bad, just that he doesn't seem like much of a prog drummer to me).

The medley of Love Supreme/The Truth Will Set You Free just irritates the hell out of me.  I would have been much happier had they just picked one of those to do in it's entirety (Love Supreme, which is easily my least favorite FK epic of all time, actually sound a lot better in this live version.......except that they don't do the whole thing).  On the up side, it's certainly the most energetic performance I've ever seen by the band.

I've only watched the whole Instant Delivery concert twice, and doubt I'll ever watch it again.  I'll take any FK live over that one any day.........and it's still quite good, despite what I say above.  Yes, I'd much rather watch Meet The Flower Kings than Instant Delivery.
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infandous View Drop Down
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Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Biff Tannen Biff Tannen wrote:

In the studio, Garden of Dreams is perfect as is, but I can see why they edited it down when played live.  

I agree that the last song in The Whirlwind suite does feel a bit overdone, with all of the reprises, but that is Neal Morse for ya.  I love Neal's music, but he goes a bit overboard with the reprises more often than not (see: the last half of Disc 2 of Snow), so it is one of those little things I can deal with since his music is always so enjoyable. 

 
Biff, fair enough, you misunderstand me about "live" music.  You quote Neal Peart, yet, RUSH always played their songs faithfully live(that does NOT mean note for note...)   G.O.D. got gutted live, TFK threw out vital parts and put in extened
useless jams like that "YES-All Good People" thing in the beginning that wasted two minutes which could have included
a key part that they dropped!  G.O.D. isn't a jam piece where you can just throw away parts and put in extened
jams.  That would be like RUSH-2112 dropping "Temples" and putting in a drum solo. Just MHO.Tongue
 
Secondly, I totally agree with you about Spock's Beard - Snow.  Neal had some wonderful ideas but he really strung it out. The first "Wind At My Back" is masterful and sounds great LOUD!  At the end, though, the record becomes drawn
out and runs out of steam.  I made an edit of Snow and I find it great from start to finish.
 
I find his work with Spock's Beard on "V" or Beware of Darkness & Kindness of Strangers, much more consistent.
 
Cheers!


I think you and I might have to have a wedding, since I agree with pretty much everything here, as well as your post before this one LOLWink

"V" is without question my favorite Spock's album.  I do have to say though, that my favorite thing Morse has ever done is Sola Scriptura.




Edited by infandous - April 09 2013 at 13:41
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The drummer on the Paradox Hotel album is definitely not that great, but I guess it doesn't matter to me that much since that record is still 1a/1b alongside Flower Power on my list of favorite TFK records.  On the flip side, Zoltan's drumming was always beastly and kicking my ass, yet none of the three albums he played on are favorites of mine.  Funny how that works. 
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

325 pages of the Flower Kings appreciation thread......the only question is....why?
 
)Wink
 
Four words Dr.:
 
The Chicken Farmer Song!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I think you and I might have to have a wedding, since I agree with pretty much everything here, as well as your post before this one LOLWink

 
Funny how far we have come.  When we first met you said you thought we had very little in common.Embarrassed
 
Seriously, for Meet The Flower Kings, I am fine with the studio setting, actually I LOVE the idea.  That DVD sounds magnificent. You characters really need to update your gear!Approve About the DVD; Roine delivered a sonic gem.  My beef is with the song selection and the butchering of GOD.  This is why I ramble about TFK recording too many songs  and too long epics.  It makes a single setlist impossible and they can't decide their best to play and they must do medleys which suck.  I too, hate the mix of Love Supreme/The Truth Will Set as well.  When I saw them they cut in half two classic FK songs and that sucked. They should keep the epics down to around 20 minutes and then play them live.  The YES Masterworks tour in 2002 is a perfect example of how to do this.  Or they can do the Steely Dan thing and play complete albums each night,  For now, I would love to see TFK play in concert:
 
Stardust
I Am The Sun (Both parts!!!!!!!)
The Chicken Farmer Song
Numbers
In The Eyes On The World
Pipes Of Peace
Back To The World of Adventures
Church Of Your Heart
Garden Of Dreams
 
hmm, this is probably way too much for one show....
 


Edited by dennismoore - April 09 2013 at 15:18
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


The Chicken Farmer Song!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

Been listening to Whirlwind. It's way too long. I love the first track and some of the jazzy instrumental stuff. Also, the production is dry and warm. I'm finished with Morse's cliche metaphors for 'accept Jesus or else'...I guess you get blown away by the wind.

I really want to like this. Maybe I will. I'm still really curious about the new album and Bridge is a perfect album.
" Bridge is a perfect album"...  Are you saying you think Bridge Across Forever was perfect?  I'm not sure I understand you.


Yeah, bridge across forever is almost a masterpiece. The epics keep my attention the entire time. The song BAF I could do without.
Stardust we are.
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zumacraig View Drop Down
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Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:



Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:


Dennis, I think I forgot to mention that I really don't care for the album, Close To The Edge.  The live versions on Yessongs are far superior.  However, the song Close To The Edge, was never my favorite, with many shorter (and longer) songs being ahead of it in the Yes catalog.  It's okay, but the excitement and crazy musicianship of the first few minutes is never equaled (not even close), so the whole rest of the song seems like an anti-climax to me.  Keep in mind this is after many years of hearing it many, many times in various live and studio forms.As to GOD live, I think they do a great job.  I saw it performed live twice, and both performances were absolutely magnificent.  I do actually agree to some extent about the Meet The Flower Kings version though.........but all the versions on there seem to lack the live feel that I got from actual live performances.  As I've stated in the past, that DVD was a fairly contrived affair, that involved about 20 people in the "audience" and was filmed over a 6-8 hour period, with the band playing songs over a few times to get it "just right".  Then later, some overdubs were made, including ALL of Hasse's vocals (he had the flu the day of filming).  So, needless to day, it's not a good representation of the Flower Kings live.  Though I have to say that the set list is nearly perfect for me, and I think the final result is quite enjoyable, if not actually a good representation of the band live.As to the show you saw...........during the Unfold tour they did go father out with the improv's.  Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.  Sounds like you saw one of the times it didn't.  Their improv's on later tours seem much more controlled and deliberate, with possibly more of a basic idea to improv over (like Blade Of Cain or Hudson River Siren's Call).


Hmm, we covered CTTE a while back and I agreed with you that I also thought the Yessongs version beats the crap out of it.  For Siberian...& And You & I as well. but that is a different point.  when you judge CTTE for its time and what other bands were doing, it is awe-inspiring. Prior, other long songs were just ramblings. Kinda like In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida....As far as the fast/rough part at the beginning of CTTE, it is pure musical chaos but with guitar work so precise.  What a stunning combination.  Think Robert Fripp but actually with some "soul".Wink.  More when I have time....
Well, you do have a point there, about the time.  However, there were a number of much better (IMO) epics released before, or at the same time, as that one.  Supper's Ready (1972) and A Plague Of Lighthouse Keepers (1971) come to mind.  Not to mention the finest epic of 1972, Thick As A Brick.  Come to think of it, 1972 was a good year for epics!Honestly, I much prefer ALL the tracks on Topographic Oceans to Close To The Edge.  I know, call me crazy.  I also prefer Gates Of Delirium to all other Yes epics (hmm......what is it about epics with the initials G.O.D. that makes them so monumentally good for me?  Approve )I don't know if I said it, but I did love Close To the Edge for the first year or so I was familiar with it.  Over the years though, I just find it pales compared to other epics and other Yes songs.As to your Fripp comment.........Fripp proved he had soul on the early records, with his writing if not his playing.  He seemed to decide to trade it in for cold technicality later on though.  Thanks to John Wetton, there was plenty of soul on the albums he took part in as well (and the song writing still had plenty of soul on most tracks).  From Discipline on though, I agree with you about the lack of soul where Fripp is concerned.


Ctte is a bit messy. I've found it doesn't hold up as well for me as much as Siberian and AYAI.

Wetton did have soul. Now he's like a bottomless well of AOR tunes. It's really amazing how prolific he is.
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Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

Dennis, Fripp has no soul! Blasphemer! I like Larks. I really need to make an effort to get into their other stuff. CTTE-chaos that is pleasing and rocking! Genius! Also, if anyone gives a sh*t I've noticed I have this pattern of getting on here saying I'm disappointed in an album only to come back and recant. So I'm warming up to whirlwind. There is a lot of padding. For example, wind blew them all away could've ended with roine's solo. His stuff is great, btw. Rose colored glasses and dance in eternal glory have horrible lyrics. The rest is pretty fun. I may dump this into audacity and make an edit.
Roine is a way better lyricist than Morse or Portnoy. Duel and Stranger are almost perfect epics to me. Oh, and on the prowl vocal melody is a rip off of Hogweed!




 

Zuma:

 

You just quoted yourself, I thought I was the only one crazy enough to do that!


DM
I bet we've all quoted ourselves at this point on this ridiculous thread! :)
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Y'see - I usually skip the chicken Farmer song, I also skip the vampire song and all of the FK's tunes about the holocaust.....Anybody else in agreement? I'm suprised that roine hasn't actually penned an epic featuring the Austwitz / Birkenau camp.....it seems to a be a topic that's of particular interest to him.....or maybe the sheer horror of such a song wouldn't make for great long-listening - you couldn't really have any cheery themes in it could you?



Edited by M27Barney - April 10 2013 at 06:34
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Y'see - I usually skip the chicken Farmer song, I also skip the vampire song and all of the FK's tunes about the holocaust.....Anybody else in agreement? I'm suprised that roine hasn't actually penned an epic featuring the Austwitz / Birkenau camp.....it seems to a be a topic that's of particular interest to him.....or maybe the sheer horror of such a song wouldn't make for great long-listening - you couldn't really have any cheery themes in it could you?




Heh, I actually play the song Train To Nowhere with my acoustic duo.  Aside from that one, the only other song I can think of that has anything to do with the Holocaust is Bavarian Skies.  I love both songs, for different reasons.  I also think Vampires View is the best song on A&E, by far.  Guess will just have to agree to disagree on these, eh?  Wink
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Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I think you and I might have to have a wedding, since I agree with pretty much everything here, as well as your post before this one LOLWink

 
Funny how far we have come.  When we first met you said you thought we had very little in common.Embarrassed
 
Seriously, for Meet The Flower Kings, I am fine with the studio setting, actually I LOVE the idea.  That DVD sounds magnificent. You characters really need to update your gear!Approve About the DVD; Roine delivered a sonic gem.  My beef is with the song selection and the butchering of GOD.  This is why I ramble about TFK recording too many songs  and too long epics.  It makes a single setlist impossible and they can't decide their best to play and they must do medleys which suck.  I too, hate the mix of Love Supreme/The Truth Will Set as well.  When I saw them they cut in half two classic FK songs and that sucked. They should keep the epics down to around 20 minutes and then play them live.  The YES Masterworks tour in 2002 is a perfect example of how to do this.  Or they can do the Steely Dan thing and play complete albums each night,  For now, I would love to see TFK play in concert:
 
Stardust
I Am The Sun (Both parts!!!!!!!)
The Chicken Farmer Song
Numbers
In The Eyes On The World
Pipes Of Peace
Back To The World of Adventures
Church Of Your Heart
Garden Of Dreams
 
hmm, this is probably way too much for one show....
 



Dennis, you reminded me that the very first time I saw TFK's live, they opened with Church Of Your Heart.  Then they played an absolutely KILLER Garden Of Dreams.  Yes, it was the same "edit" that they did on Meet The Flower Kings, but it was just so good, I couldn't help but like it (I do actually agree with you about wishing they had edited it differently for the live performance...........though I am totally okay with Roine's extended guitar solo in place of the vocals on the "Did I tell you?" section.......since he kicks all kind of ass on that solo every time I've heard it).

I actually love the set list for Meet the Flower Kings though.  The version of Circus Brimstone on there though, I could do without.  Much rather hear the complete song, rather than an improv leading into the second half of that song.

On the other hand, I would have no objections to your live set list you have here..........
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Sure, Meet The Flower Kings sounds great, but it just doesn't look or feel like a live show, and that leaves me with a bit of a hollow feeling. 

Regarding Chicken Farmer Song, put me in the camp of those who love it. 
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Originally posted by Biff Tannen Biff Tannen wrote:

 

Regarding Chicken Farmer Song, put me in the camp of those who love it. 
 
Dear Mr. Tannen,
 
After many interesting & curious posts you have spoken the magic words, so I would like to proudly announce
your staus change to "Offical Flower Kings Special Edition Person"(A title that Infandous is still actually working on
and is very close, by the way....)
 
Welcome to our group!
 
Congratulations you are now officially one of us! Wink
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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