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ExittheLemming 
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 Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:59 |
Perhaps the issue here is really the presumption of understanding as if we know what the artist's intentions are in any piece of work. Maybe interpreting their intentions would be closer to the mark but would this make their art more enjoyable and/or accessible? I guess in the visual and written realm that is probably true (I've grown to love certain paintings and novels once they've been explained to me) but with music it's different. Yes, I think it may be clever that an instrumentalist disguises a quote from another tune, or plays nested tuplets and hemiolas, exploits the emotional leverage of tonalities and scales, implies a polyrhythm in 13/8 or deploys any number of skillful and playful punning techniques to mimic the themes in the lyrics etc but would knowing all that make the music sound better to me? Nah, music is perhaps the most abstract and textural of all the arts due to its inherent non-representational limitations (that possibly give rise to the sorts of fanciful speculation that surrounds something like Moonchild), I want to like the instrumental improvisation on this track but it always fails to move me or connect with me on any musical level whatsoever. No matter how brilliantly, eloquently and movingly you describe the flavour, a person who doesn't like the taste of oranges will not start eating them.
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Dayvenkirq
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 08:23 |
 bhikkhu wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ What is your idea of experimentation not for the sake of itself ? |
That would be more of an exploratory approach with some kind of goal in mind. Think of classic scientific method. There is a theory and then that theory is tested. |
How is this applicable to music (e.g. "Moonchild" and TFTO) ?
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 08:45 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ What is your idea of experimentation not for the sake of itself ?
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When a prog band finally develops an anti-toxin for rap music.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Kentucky_Hawkwindage
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 09:03 |
Hmmmm-I've listened to Moonchild twice since the topic Understanding Moonchild arose.My conclusion is i still like the track but still have no understanding of it.Nor will i attempt any kind of interpretation.
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bhikkhu
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 09:13 |
BaldJean wrote:
if you look at the way science developed you will find that many important discoveries were made because someone made an experiment without having any theory to be tested. the theory came after the surprising discovery.
by the way: the word "theory" is wrong in this context. in science a "theory" is something which is well-founded by repeatable experiments or observations. if no experiments in that direction have been made yet scientists speak of a "hypothesis"
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Dayvenkirq wrote:
bhikkhu wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ What is your idea of experimentation not for the sake of itself ? |
That would be more of an exploratory approach with some kind of goal in mind. Think of classic scientific method. There is a theory and then that theory is tested. |
How is this applicable to music (e.g. "Moonchild" and TFTO) ? |
Perhaps the words I am choosing don't convey my thoughts very well. Hypothesis would probably be better. Experimentation is an extremely valuable tool but do I want to hear it? It's a subjective thing anyway. Although the comparison of Moonchild and TFTO does seem appropriate to my point. Moonchild appears to me as a bunch of guys playing around during a recording session. TFTO is the end result of the original ideas being fleshed out over time. Once again this is just the impression given when listening to the music. It has nothing to do with the actual history of the recordings.
Edited by bhikkhu - March 09 2014 at 09:15
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 09:32 |
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Having listened to the album for over 40 years, I can honestly say in regards to "Moonchild" that after the first 2:30 of the song (which I enjoy), I go to smoke a cigarette. There are very few albums that have a built-in intermission.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 18061
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 10:51 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
...
... I do appreciate the cleverness in how the instrumental section mimics and audibly puns on certain aspects of the lyrics, that alone does not satisfy me on any given level of musicality. ... |
And this is the part that is difficult to work with and describe for Western music intelectuals and folks that think that music theory is the end all with it all in music, and that you can not create anything else in any other way.
LATER, it can be defined, but normally the answer is that something that is brought out of improvisation, and in this case a "guided" improvisation, might not fit in the descriptions of "music" because it is missing this and that and this and that!
We have to guard against that, unless what Holger and folks in various music schools in Germany were saying "not using Western Music concepts", and it gives you something new and different that sometimes defies description! We still have a terrible time accepting things outside the "norm", and think they are terrible and over rated, simply because we "don't get it!".
That's not fair to the music and their creators!
This is very similar to many concepts in those days in theater, to experiment, and come up with something new and totally different. KC, and this (and other songs) in the album succeeded TREMENDOUSLY, in giving us an album that had the best sense of the time and place of any other album out there, and it is because THEY LISTENED to what they were doing, and developed an inner reaction from it, that had nothing to do with music or your ideas or mine.
There is a film you must see. It's called "Meetings With Remarkable Men" and it is about Gurdgieff (sp!). And while a lot of it, kinda goes right by you and I very fast, there is an ending sequence that brings it all out. There is a "tuning" that can be achieved, that can not be done MENTALLY. It is done with your psyche. The problem is, you and I think that the psyche is your mind, and it is NOT. The result, is something that will astound and simply amaze you, and you spend your whole time trying to analyze it, and figuring out where it fits in your scheme of things. In the end, you can't even do that satisfactorily!
It also tells you that Robert Fripp was learning a lot from the processes in theater (specially Peter Brook and the RSC) and then later using similar exercises that Peter used with his actors to formulate a performance, the ultimate result of which was "The Mahabharatta" where the actors could not even understand or speak to each other, with a common language, and yet, you have a fantastic performance and play that is immesurably strong, though many folks would rather go enjoy inane entertainment.
That is the only issue with Moonchild!
If you try to bring it down to a song, you just killed it for yourself and its existence.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 11:02 |
BaldJean wrote:
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I know all this very well, Dean. the problem is you can not distinguish apophenia from purposeful sound picturing unless you know about the purpose of the artist.
would you call the thunderstorm in the fourth movement of Beethoven's 6th symphony apophenia? I hardly think so; we both know that this is meant to be a thunderstorm. yet probably everyone who listens to it for the first tme without knowing anything about it would probably have the same associations, don't you agree?
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I would slow down here.
This is like saying that you have to know love in order to be able to love! And that's not quite true. You can love, if you are willing to or not and give of yourself to the moment.
The song is about the "moment", and I do not believe it has anything to do with anything else. The harder issue is the title of it, and what it inferred, which is a different story altogether, and might and might not have anything to do with it all, which I do not think is as important.
But I doubt, that all arts are so detailed inside out as to be "apophenia". People have a lot inside, and sometimes we see it and sometimes we don't. Mostly we don't, and that has been the case since one man specified that "the father and I are one", and to this day, no one knows what that means, and it is right here in front of all of us!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 11:07 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Perhaps the issue here is really the presumption of understanding as if we know what the artist's intentions are in any piece of work. Maybe interpreting their intentions would be closer to the mark but would this make their art more enjoyable and/or accessible?...
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When you have the chance, read the play Marat/Sade. There is a fabulous discussion about this between Jean Paul Marat and the Marquis de Sade.
"I am the revolution"
"No. You are but a sick man that thinks about glory and dreams"
Sometimes, even the intentions are nebulous. How can we say that we have to understand a child's intention or nebulosity? Given them an instrument and watch!
I wonder if we have become too old and plastic to actually give any credence to different events that we have not felt, and sometimes are afraid to see and appreciate. This has been the role of all music, art and literature for me in my life. Remove the darkness that prevents you from seeing the rays of the truth and the life giving force!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Progosopher
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 15:41 |
Whenever people talk about this song, they always distinguish the vocal from the instrumental part. I do not think the line is that clear. The beginning of the instrumental section sounds composed to me, only moving into improvisation after about the four and a half minute mark. This means the song is not a mere 2 1/2 minutes long.
I strongly suspect the improvisation is both edited and rehearsed. In other words, they ran through some ideas prior to committing them to tape. There are too many clear shifts, too much of a pattern, for me to think it was all totally off the cuff and purely in the moment. The improvs very well could have been based around the lyrics, but are of such a nature I think we could apply any segment to any lyric. But if that is the case, there might not be any improvisation in this piece at all - it is all composed. Dean makes a good point - not just Fripp, but the rest of the original Crims are the only ones who can tell us for sure what happened and what their intention was. And being the artists they are, they apparently have left the interpretations up to the listeners. And there is plenty of room for interpretation.
This topic has certainly compelled me to listen more closely to Moonchild, and I do not find the song as random as I had thought. Even though I do not entirely agree with BaldJean on this one, I find the approach intriguing. And this is what makes Moonchild a good piece of music - there is enough depth to it that one can hear different aspects to it, or find different qualities that are not immediately apparent. This puts it in the same category as much of abstract art, where the appreciation is in the eye of the beholder. In this case, of course, it is the ear.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Icarium
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 15:48 |
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Michael Giles drumming on it is soo god his cymcal work is tastefull
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Tony R
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Posted: March 09 2014 at 16:03 |
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Another one in the wrong forum!
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moshkito
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Posted: March 10 2014 at 14:13 |
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"And this is what makes Moonchild a good piece of music - there is enough depth to it that one can hear different aspects to it, or find different qualities that are not immediately apparent. This puts it in the same category as much of abstract art, where the appreciation is in the eye of the beholder. In this case, of course, it is the ear." |
Agreed, and very nicely stated.
The only issue I have with it, and it happens a lot in the ProgArchives, is that folks have a real hard time with "abstract", and even the early Krautrock and Miles Davis has a lot of that. English music, in general, was too mental by comparison, but it did have some, and I think that Canterbury ended up developing it more.
In the end, for me, that album is the best set of photographs for that time and place. You can put movies to each and every song, or songs from the radio, or art from the museums, or words from various literature, and voila. No album describes the late 60's any better than that one has for me!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Blacksword
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Location: England
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Posted: March 10 2014 at 14:49 |
Kentucky_Hawkwindage wrote:
Hmmmm-I've listened to Moonchild twice since the topic Understanding Moonchild arose.My conclusion is i still like the track but still have no understanding of it.Nor will i attempt any kind of interpretation. |
Same here.
I've revisited the track. I don't dislike it, but I remain unconvinced that the noodling section is anything more than just that. I guess only Fripp & co know what, if anything it 'means'
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Man With Hat
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Posted: March 10 2014 at 16:25 |
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If this is true then lovely! Either way it sounds like a fun idea to actually do.
I thought I read somewhere that the music was a response to the light/lightshow that was happening around them at the time. I suppose this makes more sense id this was a live happening...perhaps what I read was just early improvs by KC, not Moonchild itself. Or I'm making the whole thing up or drugs.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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moshkito
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 09:20 |
Man With Hat wrote:
If this is true then lovely! Either way it sounds like a fun idea to actually do.
I thought I read somewhere that the music was a response to the light/lightshow that was happening around them at the time. I suppose this makes more sense id this was a live happening...perhaps what I read was just early improvs by KC, not Moonchild itself. Or I'm making the whole thing up or drugs. |
Knowing Robert, I doubt there were drugs around. Maybe some wine.
But the noodling, might or might not have any meaning, and sometimes we spend too much time figuring it out.
It's like being outside, you take a deep breath, and now you start the dissertation by Dean and his troops about what it does for your body and life. Sometimes it has no meaning, other than just a nice deep breath that felt good and envigorating and made you look up and enjoy the beauty of the sun coming up in the coast! There might be a "meaning" there, but it's not as important as the feeling you got from doing it! And I think that we try too hard, mentally, to explain something that we can't, but it must FIT INTO OUR CONCEPTS AND IDEAS!
Edited by moshkito - March 11 2014 at 09:38
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 11:16 |
moshkito wrote:
Knowing Robert, I doubt there were drugs around. Maybe some wine. |
If you know Robert, why don't you call him Bob?
moshkito wrote:
It's like being outside, you take a deep breath, and now you start the dissertation by Dean and his troops about what it does for your body and life. Sometimes it has no meaning, other than just a nice deep breath that felt good and envigorating and made you look up and enjoy the beauty of the sun coming up in the coast! There might be a "meaning" there, but it's not as important as the feeling you got from doing it! And I think that we try too hard, mentally, to explain something that we can't, but it must FIT INTO OUR CONCEPTS AND IDEAS! |
It is good that we can always count on you not to think too hard. With the lower classes, we simply aspire not to think, but unfortunately we keep getting these damn ideas in our heads.
Edited by The Dark Elf - March 11 2014 at 11:17
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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KingCrInuYasha
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 13:37 |
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I think the Wetton version of Crimson did it better with "Trio", but I think I've manged to make peace with this one. The little melodies that Fripp put in is enough to save it from being a low point in my book, plus it helps link "Epitaph" and "The Court Of The Crimson King".
Is it enough for me to push In The Court Of The Crimson King back to 5 stars? Maybe, but then again, I'm a total nut for Pink Floyd's Ummagumma, which has a similar vibe to "Moonchild".
Edited by KingCrInuYasha - March 11 2014 at 13:41
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Man With Hat
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 21:48 |
moshkito wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
If this is true then lovely! Either way it sounds like a fun idea to actually do. I thought I read somewhere that the music was a response to the light/lightshow that was happening around them at the time. I suppose this makes more sense id this was a live happening...perhaps what I read was just early improvs by KC, not Moonchild itself. Or I'm making the whole thing up or drugs. |
Knowing Robert, I doubt there were drugs around. Maybe some wine.
But the noodling, might or might not have any meaning, and sometimes we spend too much time figuring it out.
It's like being outside, you take a deep breath, and now you start the dissertation by Dean and his troops about what it does for your body and life. Sometimes it has no meaning, other than just a nice deep breath that felt good and envigorating and made you look up and enjoy the beauty of the sun coming up in the coast! There might be a "meaning" there, but it's not as important as the feeling you got from doing it! And I think that we try too hard, mentally, to explain something that we can't, but it must FIT INTO OUR CONCEPTS AND IDEAS! |
I meant I was taking the drugs to come up with such a theory.  
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18061
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 10:40 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
It is good that we can always count on you not to think too hard. With the lower classes, we simply aspire not to think, but unfortunately we keep getting these damn ideas in our heads.
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I hardly think class has anything to do with it. But it could be said that some rich classes have more time on their hands to pursue some things that some of us working classes rarely have a chance to do?
Sometimes!
And a lot of arts and artists are often well known for this!
Edited by moshkito - March 12 2014 at 11:02
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Understanding Moonchild
