Genesis’ Duke makes me FURIOUS!

felona wrote: kirklott wrote: felona wrote: Kirklott ...are you still there? You've gone very quiet all of a sudden ... Having second thoughts about Duke yet?  Dear Felona, My friend, gentleman, scholar: I am in the Rocky Mountains USA - a different hemisphere and ergo a different time zone. I have just arisen from a long night's slumber: refreshed and rivatlized from a deep repose, ready to once again defend my position, and assault/attack if necessary.  Hey, wasn't he the guy from KISS? Glad you had a good ZZZZzzz ... I am off to bed now cos its getting very late in my little corner of the world. Look forward to some jesting with you again soon Mr Navajo Warrior!

Just to clarify, I require only 90 minutes of (light) repose per 24 hour period. I can run 75 miles or more without rest, survive extreme temperatures, require minimal sustenance, and derive all necessary moisture through reclamation from my own respiration.

Flyingbebert wrote: "Duke" could have been one of the greatest Genesis album if there weren't songs like "heathaze" or "please don't ask" [...]

Please give "Heathaze" another chance. Maybe you'll see that it recaptures some of the magic of the Hackett era and that it's a criminally underrated Genesis classic - just like "Evidence of Autumn", which is also extremely beautiful.    

kirklott wrote: Ripples 9:53 (live with Hackett?)

No, it's without Hackett. It was recorded with Stuermer in May 1980. Nevertheless this recording is one of the very best prog moments I know. This live song is really stunning. I never liked the composition when the "ATOTT" version was the only one I knew. But this passionate live performance brings it to life. The guitars, the improved melody, the highly dramatic curve and Collins at his very best and most emotional (he even gives the great Steve Walsh a run for his money), everything is wonderful: melodic prog at its peak.

My opinion about "Duke" as a whole? Good but not great. A mixed bag. Both the powerful songwriting skills on "ATTWT" and the cold roughness of "Abacab" are more interesting to my ears than this transitional album.     

Behind the Lines --- 5/10 (great intro, lame verse and chorus)
Duchess --- 5/10 (okay but nothing special)
Guide Vocal --- 8/10
Man of our Times --- 3/10 (one of their worst)
Misunderstanding --- 4/10 (...)
Heathaze --- 8/10
Turn it on Again --- 5/10
Alone Tonight --- 5/10
Cul-de-Sac --- 6/10
Please don't Ask --- 7/10 (a pretty good ballad actually)
Duke's Travels --- 8/10
Duke's End --- 8/10

Edited by Miaugion

kirklott wrote: Rhayader wrote: Heh, I feel like I'm the only one here who actually likes Phil Collins's solo stuff. You're right.

No, he's not.

'Duke' is half a decent album, with the first side, excluding the dire 'Misunderstanding', all being decent AOR, yet the second half is shakier, with only the excellent 'Cul De Sac' and 'Duke's Travels/ Duke's End' being in any way identifiable as Genesis. Maybe it's because I'm a fan of this sort of AOR but I think 'Duke' isn't terribly bad.

If you're looking for prog rock though, I agree that 'Duke' doesn't deliver on that front at all. And if you think 'Duke' is duff, check out 'Abacab'; had several of Genesis' worst ever songs, like 'Who Dunnit?', 'Man On The Corner' and 'Another Record'.

The songs you mention, Miaugion, are fairly decent, I have to say. But every one sounded great live and better than the more restrained versions on 'Abacab'. 'Keep It Dark' I especially liked as an AOR song, and 'Abacab' developed into a full-on prog out on the live versions I've heard.

salmacis wrote: The songs you mention, Miaugion, are fairly decent, I have to say. But every one sounded great live and better than the more restrained versions on 'Abacab'. 'Keep It Dark' I especially liked as an AOR song, and 'Abacab' developed into a full-on prog out on the live versions I've heard.

I completely agree. Yes, the album versions may be a bit too dry and uneventful compared to the live versions. Especially "Dodo|Lurker" gains power, mood and darkness in a live situation (=> "Three Sides Live" version).    

Rhayader wrote: did anyone like the album We Can't Dance?

Although I'm one of the few who are fond of the Collins years and think that Genesis recorded their best (read: most timeless) music with Collins at the helm ("A Trick of the Tail", "Wind & Wuthering" plus the best of "ATTWT" plus "Heathaze" and "Evidence of Autumn") I think "We can't Dance" is enjoyable - but not much more, unfortunately. My second least favourite album of the whole bunch (least favourite: "Genesis [Shapes]")

IMO some songs are just nerve-racking on repeated listens. "We can't Dance" could be a pretty good swan song though, e.g. if the track list read as follows:

01 No Son of Mine
02 Driving the Last Spike
03 On the Shoreline (b-side)
04 Dreaming while you Sleep
05 Do the Neurotic (jazzy "Invisible Touch" outtake, b-side)
06 Living Forever
07 Hold on my Heart (yes, it's sexy )
08 Fading Lights

Of course I agree that "Fading Lights" is brilliant. They should have called it "Ripples Part II" as that is what it is, basically. I just love it and love the fact that they shut the door with such a mighty melancholy epic when they left the building (not counting CAS, of course ).

Rhayader wrote: well, I've not heard CAS yet. Is that a decent album?

It's a dark, brooding, melancholy and (in parts) passionate album with some complex and energetic instrumental parts and very few fillers, musically dominated by Banks and Ray Wilson's voice. Most of the compositions are quality and Wilson really tries to do his best. It doesn't sound like any other album they did but it's still typically Genesis (thanks to Tony Banks).

I'd say most of the songs are more interesting and original than 90 % of all the neo prog songs out there but I could never accept the album as a part of the Genesis history. The shadows of their great past are just too long. (That's why I love "Fading Lights" as their swan song. Sorry, if the formulation was not clear enough.)

But maybe you should give it a spin or two as it's by no means a musical dud.    

(Personal highlights: "Calling all Stations", "Alien Afternoon", "The Dividing Line", "Uncertain Weather", "There must be some other Way" and "One Man's Fool". How some reviewers can give these tracks a 1-star-rating is beyond me ... )

Edited by Miaugion

Personally, I think it's the best album they made without Hackett. And those of you knocking "Heathaze" - man, that is as Banks as it gets! LOVE that song!

Rutherford sounds amazing on Duke. And what a spine-tingling moment at the end of "Duke's Travels" with the "Guide Vocal" reprise! One of the all time great Genesis moments.

I actually burned myself an alternate Duke, swapping out "Misunderstanding" and "Turn It On Again" and swapping in "Evidence Of Autumn" and "Open Door". As for "Please Don't Ask", that is a gorgeous song.

NP: Echolyn "Mei"

ivan_2068 wrote: Please be serious everybody knows Genesis died the day Steve Hackett left. Somebody said Duke is good AOR, maybe, thanks God I always hated AOR. Ivàn

Duke is not AOR. It's a very original album. Not only because of the first 3 tracks and the last 2, but also because of songs like Heathaze, Man Of Our Times and Cul - De - Sac. Maybe Turn It On Again, Please Don't Ask and Misunderstanding are a bit AOR, but still not bad tracks and they work within the context of the album.

The "Duke Suite" is Genesis at it's most progressive! It's innovative stuff, and emoyionally very touching.