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jammun View Drop Down
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2009 at 22:26

Isn't there some auto-inclusion rule for bands who meet the following criteria:

First album is primarily blues-rock based;
Second album exhibits some proto-prog tendencies;
Third album exhibits still further proto-prog tendencies;
Fourth album, while a drop-off from the third, still exhibits proto-prog tendencies;
Producer of one or more of those albums was killed by his wife.



Edited by jammun - December 29 2009 at 22:26
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Points: 1320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2010 at 09:15
For me they can easily fit the proto-prog category, both in terms of time period and regarding their musical innovation, experimentation and progress beyond simple 12-bar blues rock.

YES, definitely!
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Points: 453 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2010 at 18:56
If Santana is catalogued here as a Prog band, I guess Cream are a prog band too, in the same way Ten Years After are too.
 
But my opinion is that those 3 great bands are only Jam bands who played Rock.
 
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2010 at 20:05
Originally posted by SergiUriah SergiUriah wrote:

 
only Jam bands who played Rock.
 



and what  KC in their most beloved incarnation?.. 
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Points: 314 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2010 at 06:48
Originally posted by SergiUriah SergiUriah wrote:

If Santana is catalogued here as a Prog band, I guess Cream are a prog band too, in the same way Ten Years After are too.
 
 
ooooouuuuuuuuhhhhh...Geek
Oh dear, are you mean that Santana would not be here? ? ?


Edited by ko - January 11 2010 at 06:54
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Points: 26 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2010 at 07:05
Originally posted by SergiUriah SergiUriah wrote:

If Santana is catalogued here as a Prog band, I guess Cream are a prog band too, in the same way Ten Years After are too.
 
But my opinion is that those 3 great bands are only Jam bands who played Rock.
 
You can't compare Ten Years After with Cream.
 
Cream were not a jam band - although TYA probably were.
 
The blues was a jumping-off point for exploratory improvisation with Cream (by all three musicians) - different from aimless boogie jamming of the likes of TYA, Mountain and others.
 
Like Cream - Santana are a hybrid. A classy band that fused hitherto different and unconnected elements.
 
Long live Cream and Viva Santana!!! Smile
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2010 at 07:20
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

SWLABR - The title stands for "She Walks Like A Bearded Rainbow."
 
Thanks for the reminder - coincidenally checking out Disraeli gears yesterday and asking myself that very  question, and got stuck after Sent With Love And......  (after SWALK or NORWICH)..... BTW check out the double CD set of Disraeli gears, which includes outtakes of those recording sessions - including a couple of tunes that reemerged on Jack Bruce's 'Songs For A Tailor', which indeed is as progressive as any of the band went.
 
Cream were most innovative for their time hence progressive in the literal sense (especially if you believe those reunion quotes about doing an Ornette Coleman - "but we didn't tell Eric") but were most definitely part of the underground movement both sides of the Atlantic. But they effectively only impinge on the beginning of  the progressive music period 67-71. Said it before, in the record shop I worked 67-71, what went into the 'progressive music' section was originally Canned Heat , Nice and Moody Blues, whilst Cream and John Mayall went into the 'blues' section.  It might be argued that skilled musicians jamming pseudo-jazz-wise would have influenced a few musicians  in the sense pop or rock (which was only a few years old) didn't have to be confined to 3 minute recorded tracks.
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2010 at 07:24
Originally posted by Ghostmojo Ghostmojo wrote:

Originally posted by SergiUriah SergiUriah wrote:

If Santana is catalogued here as a Prog band, I guess Cream are a prog band too, in the same way Ten Years After are too.
 
But my opinion is that those 3 great bands are only Jam bands who played Rock.
 
You can't compare Ten Years After with Cream.
 
Cream were not a jam band - although TYA probably were.
 
 
Define 'jam'. When Garaj Mahal through to Medeski Martins & Woods are described as modern  'jam bands' - and quite different from each other, other than being jazz-based - I get ever bemused by the terminology and its vagueness.
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Points: 18063 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2010 at 20:50
Quote ... Cream remain utterly unique. Not even Zeppelin come close. The latter did long jams but they were essentially vehicles for Page to show off with Jones and Bonham knowing when to start and stop and when to join back in again. They were a consumate rhythm section - disciplined and reliable. But they did not take the risks Cream did. Bonham and Jones never attempted to match Page or duel with him in the way Clapton, Baker and Bruce did. ...
 
Ohh my gawd ... you have never heard the bootlegs ... Led Zeppelin was insanely good in concert ... and way more adventurous than anyone ever gave them credit ... and to say that John Paul Jones or Bonzo or Robert were not as adventurous ... is really pusing the button ... in fact, Bonzo's contribution was so important that the band stopped after he passed away ... I really think that says a lot more than they are being given credit for ...
 
They really need to release "Live on Blueberry Hill" as is ... it is by far one of the best concerts ever ... and the playing is ... dangerous ... not sure many of us can even stand up to it ...  and it is also a real sad comment about John Paul Jones, when he also played keyboards and added a massive amount of emotional content that went way beyond the bass playing  ... yes, it is "rock" ... and at times it gave rise to "metal" ... but it's compositional abilities for the first 5 albums ... are second to almost none ... and it doesn't matter who it is ....
 
Cream were never progressive ... before or since ... and Ginger Baker's comments about Hawkwind are ... "the worst little rock band" ...  and he wasn't even appreciative of having Tim Blake in there either ... which is sad. So he's good and the rest stink ... sorry! Eric is fine and he is progressive in his own way, and I will never say he's a bad guitarist ... but I think he needs another Gregg Allman to show him up and push him ... because him as a star is not being challenged enough ...
 
Cream is much more in the lines of John Mayall ... than prog ... still good ... and again ... that's the problem with adding labels and names on these things ... no one is going to agree with anyone ... and instead of appreciating the good music ... we're wasting it ...
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2010 at 21:50

There's a lot of intersting thoughts here.  In the interest of not having to try to stack up quotes:

1.  Ghostmojo, I understand the initial impulse to label TYA as a jam band.  But they were a bit more than that if you listen to the early albums.  I suppose the popularity of the I'm Going Home track from the Woodstock movie saddles them with the jam category, and I don't doubt that they cultivated that, in that much of their music tends to devolve into Alvin Lee jamming.  It's too bad most listeners never hear something like Me and My Baby, from Cricklewood Green.  The band was very capable.

2.  Dick Heath, I have that Disraeli Gears double and it's great.  It's also amusing that somehow Canned Heat would end up in the progressive bin rather than blues.  Eh, those were the days.

3.  Ghostmojo, I'm not thinking Mountain was a jam band, at least on album.  Some of their work (Theme For an Imaginary Western (written by Pete Brown) and Nantucket Sleighride, for example)  is about as proggy as yer average blues-rock ensemble ever got back in the day.  Of relevance is that ol' Felix played bass for the band, and obviously had learned a few lessons from his days hanging out with Cream. 



Edited by jammun - January 11 2010 at 21:51
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Points: 453 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 00:58
Well, if somebody is happier thinking about the fact that Cream were a prog band, ok, no problem.
 
But they were probably the first band who changed the blues to hard rock, and 3 great musicians who liked playing jams very much. I think its simple.
 
That idea of naming Proggy every long song is so terrible for me...Unhappy


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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 05:25
This is the old Prog vs Progressive debate yet again.

We could dig every single band out of the 1960s progressive music scene, as well as the Progressive bluesmen (remember Johnny Winters' "Progressive Blues Experiment", as well as Mayall's "Bare Wires" from 1969?). 

Progressive isn't the same thing as Prog, despite the word.

Take this simple acid test; Compare Cream's music to that of Gentle Giant (or even Simon Dupre and the Big Sound). Is that the same music?

I say no, but it could just be me...

There's no disputing that Cream are Prog-related, Metal related, Hard Rock related, and everything else related, because they were one of the most inspiring rock bands ever. 

But compare "Fresh Cream" to "Disraeli Gears" and play spot the real differences between the songs, look for the concepts, influences from other musical genres, theatricality and boundary-pushing on the old song structure and be prepared to hunt in vain.
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Points: 26 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 06:52
Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

There's a lot of intersting thoughts here.  In the interest of not having to try to stack up quotes:

1.  Ghostmojo, I understand the initial impulse to label TYA as a jam band.  But they were a bit more than that if you listen to the early albums.  I suppose the popularity of the I'm Going Home track from the Woodstock movie saddles them with the jam category, and I don't doubt that they cultivated that, in that much of their music tends to devolve into Alvin Lee jamming.  It's too bad most listeners never hear something like Me and My Baby, from Cricklewood Green.  The band was very capable.

Don't get me wrong jammun - I like TYA. I am familiar with some of their studio cuts as well as their live workouts. I always saw them more as Alvin Lee vehicle than a democratic band of equal parts. Did the later version - Ten Years Later - carry on in the same way ... I lost track somewhere along the route although I did see A.L. on the Night of the Guitars Tour back in the late 80s. My favourite track was always "I Can't Keep From Crying". I say a jam band in their case because the rhythm section held down pretty basic patterns over lengthy stretches - rather than joining in.
 
 
Quote 2.  Dick Heath, I have that Disraeli Gears double and it's great.  It's also amusing that somehow Canned Heat would end up in the progressive bin rather than blues.  Eh, those were the days.

3.  Ghostmojo, I'm not thinking Mountain was a jam band, at least on album.  Some of their work (Theme For an Imaginary Western (written by Pete Brown) and Nantucket Sleighride, for example)  is about as proggy as yer average blues-rock ensemble ever got back in the day.  Of relevance is that ol' Felix played bass for the band, and obviously had learned a few lessons from his days hanging out with Cream.

Well, perhaps you are right, but in the case of Mountain - they tried the Cream thing but it just didn't click. They lacked the same level of chemistry and were aping rather than originating. They wrote some good stuff of course, in their own right, oh and BTW Theme was written by Jack Bruce & Pete Brown (and not just the latter). Jack and Felix were great mates. F.P. played on both Wheels Of Fire and Goodbye (as well as producing) and possibly appeared uncredited on Disraeli Gears - as well as reprising these roles on Jack's first solo album Songs For A Tailor (which also featured George Harrison). Bruce's best early album (in my opinion) is the beautifully atmospheric Harmony Row which I recommend to all and sundry.
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Points: 26 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 07:14
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Quote ... Cream remain utterly unique. Not even Zeppelin come close. The latter did long jams but they were essentially vehicles for Page to show off with Jones and Bonham knowing when to start and stop and when to join back in again. They were a consumate rhythm section - disciplined and reliable. But they did not take the risks Cream did. Bonham and Jones never attempted to match Page or duel with him in the way Clapton, Baker and Bruce did. ...
 
Ohh my gawd ... you have never heard the bootlegs ... Led Zeppelin was insanely good in concert ... and way more adventurous than anyone ever gave them credit ... and to say that John Paul Jones or Bonzo or Robert were not as adventurous ... is really pusing the button ... in fact, Bonzo's contribution was so important that the band stopped after he passed away ... I really think that says a lot more than they are being given credit for ...
 
They really need to release "Live on Blueberry Hill" as is ... it is by far one of the best concerts ever ... and the playing is ... dangerous ... not sure many of us can even stand up to it ...  and it is also a real sad comment about John Paul Jones, when he also played keyboards and added a massive amount of emotional content that went way beyond the bass playing  ... yes, it is "rock" ... and at times it gave rise to "metal" ... but it's compositional abilities for the first 5 albums ... are second to almost none ... and it doesn't matter who it is ....
 
OMG - I have you know. I saw them in the 70s and I possess a whole raft of Zep bootlegs including Blueberry Hill. I am and always will be a seriously big Zeppelin fan. I'm not knocking a band I love - BUT - and it is a big but - Zep's live approach was radically different than Cream. JB and JPJ were both fine musicians but NEVER, ever improvised in the way that Bruce and Baker did. Page led the way in LZ. Clapton didn't always in Cream. I have compared many Zep boots and the same basic structure is evident on most of them. Cream never played the same song song the same way twice. It's not a case of which band is better - they were different. One paved the way for the other as Plant readily admitted. Page, famously, wanted Jack Bruce in the 'New Yardbirds' band before he ever considered JPJ.
 
I love the variety of LZ. They covered a lot more ground in the studio, but they did have the benefit of doing this in the 70s with better technology and a different industry. Cream (with Hendrix) provided the huge stadium arena audiences to allow for this.
 
Quote Cream were never progressive ... before or since ... and Ginger Baker's comments about Hawkwind are ... "the worst little rock band" ...  and he wasn't even appreciative of having Tim Blake in there either ... which is sad. So he's good and the rest stink ... sorry! Eric is fine and he is progressive in his own way, and I will never say he's a bad guitarist ... but I think he needs another Gregg Allman to show him up and push him ... because him as a star is not being challenged enough ...
 
Baker's comments about Hawkwind notwithstanding - Cream were hugely progressive. You let your whole argument down with that contrary remark. Cream and Hendrix opened the doors through which Zeppelin and the rest followed.
 
Quote Cream is much more in the lines of John Mayall ... than prog ... still good ... and again ... that's the problem with adding labels and names on these things ... no one is going to agree with anyone ... and instead of appreciating the good music ... we're wasting it ...
 
Cream's only connection with Mayall is the blues. That and the fact Bruce and Clapton had both done stints in the Bluesbreakers. After that the similarities are pretty non-existent. mayal remained true to the Chicago sound until relocating to the States. Clapton left because he wanted to do more with the blues - which he did ... with Bruce and Baker.
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Points: 3968 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2010 at 10:13
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

This is the old Prog vs Progressive debate yet again.

We could dig every single band out of the 1960s progressive music scene, as well as the Progressive bluesmen (remember Johnny Winters' "Progressive Blues Experiment", as well as Mayall's "Bare Wires" from 1969?). 

Progressive isn't the same thing as Prog, despite the word.

Take this simple acid test; Compare Cream's music to that of Gentle Giant (or even Simon Dupre and the Big Sound). Is that the same music?

I say no, but it could just be me...

There's no disputing that Cream are Prog-related, Metal related, Hard Rock related, and everything else related, because they were one of the most inspiring rock bands ever. 

But compare "Fresh Cream" to "Disraeli Gears" and play spot the real differences between the songs, look for the concepts, influences from other musical genres, theatricality and boundary-pushing on the old song structure and be prepared to hunt in vain.

Important post. Made me think about my opinions and position, point of view I've taken. Seriously.
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Points: 20 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 17:02
If the Doors are Proto-Prog, I think Cream definitely fits into the genre, as it is their music which steered me towards the genre. Clapton for God's sake!! Add them so we can spew our nonsense already !
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Points: 34083 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 04:45
have anyone wahtched the 2006cream reunion concert, I have and ehat a gret energy they had even when they all are above 60, and I am sure i was watching a progressive band playing bluesy prog.
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Points: 14547 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2010 at 09:21
Spoonful is prog enough, I think
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 06:57
album "Disraeli gears" with  TALES FROM BRAVE ULYSSES is pyschedelic with proggy moments. i am not sure if they could be in prog related - I would agree with that but not full prog by any stretch of imagination. Good choice that should have serious consideration. 
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Points: 34083 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2011 at 07:48
Listening to Disraeli Gear now, and to me it sounds like a 70s progressive album made in the 60s, very innovative album of its time, the innovative aproach to music and the virtouse aproach to playing is very clear, I just saw the docu, 7 ages of rock and it seriously infused in me the thought that Cream was very progressive, and sett the standards for power trios, for technical aproach to rock music, but maybe it is just a normal rock album but hell this is early 66 and it have not staled nor becomed un-important, i still can hear its relevance in music history and progressive music




Edited by aginor - October 20 2011 at 07:49
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